Shannon Bores!

by Hebe Wed Jan 08, 2003 11:03

John 'Budgie' Bingham was the name of a loyalist executed by the IRA. He was with Frenchy Marchant (executed by IRA) & George Seawright (executed by IPLO) when Seawright raised a Union Jack over the Andersontown Leisure Centre. They did this because a Tricolour was flown over the just opened centre.

It was more like the opening of Tutankahnems tomb;
the curse of Andytown ensured the 3 of them were in hell before long.

by Ray Wed Jan 08, 2003 11:38

Peace Camp excrement not cleared up
by Elevation Wed, Jan 8 2003, 10:34am
Shannon peace activists shit left untouched

A Litter Warden today refused to go to the 'Peace' Camp at Shannon to view for himself the excrement left at the scene by protestors. He said (quote) "they can clean up their own shit. I'm not getting involved with that shower!". He mentioned a Council official who visited the camp in the last couple of days only to be spat at and told to 'F**k off'.
The Environmental Health Officer was not readily available, but a message was left.

This is a serious hygiene issue and total disregard for the environment. It is irresponsible behaviour by a small minority. Hope the newspapers or TV3 picture this and show the public the type of animals who are hanging out at the 'peace' camp.

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COMMENTS
Package it
by Denis Wed, Jan 8 2003, 10:35am

and smear it on the C-130s and the shitbag who wrote this article.

edit this comment | delete this comment

by No Pasaran Wed Jan 08, 2003 11:56

Gerry is conducting a text poll to see if his listners approve of American Military being allowed use of the airport. The number is

087 7720000

Text Y for Yes I approve or N for no I don't approve.

Now I don't believe for a minute that that RTE would allow a poll like this and not have the result already decided but if any of you are interested in proving me wrong text away. As it stands 67% of the listners approve.

by jenny Wed Jan 08, 2003 12:42

i am outraged at the cynical comments relating to the peace camp and to the gerry ryan interview this morning.i was listenting to the show and i believe that mary did a fine job, it was however a shame that she wasnt given the chance to debate with the man that rang in because not only did he talk alot of bull he also misquoted mary. as regards her not having a sense of humour, well that comment was complety out of order. this is a serious matter and people throwing about personal insults is not helping anyone.
i was out at the peace camp and it is doing a brilliant job, the amount of support from the public and traffic says it all so before you all start ripping it to shreds id advise you to go and visit it.
the men out there have contibuted greatly and have been a source of encouragement and strength for the camp. so dont be under the illusion that no men are involved or are allowed to be. everyone is welcome.
as regards mary being on the radio and not a man,well that is a empty argument as tim was on tv3 representing the peace camp. i hope this battle of the sexes will stop because the real cause of the peace camp is being lost in it all.

by Joe Sheehan - Shannon Peace Camp Wed Jan 08, 2003 12:50

The peace camp started with the women's peace camp IT IS NOW HOWEVER a unisex, all welcome, beyond religion, race, sex camp. We do not care what your religion, race, sex at the camp, what we are protesting is the use of Shannon Airport by the American Military, Highlighting that this attack on Iraq is NOT in our name.

Who cares who is talking to the media as long as the message is correct, so far people talking to the media have been whoever was available and wanted to do so.

by Shannon Peace Camp Wed Jan 08, 2003 12:57

Shannon Peace Camp is open to everyone who objects to Shannon Airport being used an a War port.So come see for yourself.

by katherine harford - shannon peace camp Wed Jan 08, 2003 12:58 shannonpeacecamp at hotmail dot com

in response to the initiail publication here. STOP BEING SO NEGATIVE. i think you will find that the peace activist on the gerry ryan show this morning, Mary Kelly, was in a very passionate and leveled way, opposing any war as it leaves blood on the hands of the participants. speaking from her own experience (which is always a reasonable perspective from which to to argue)of US policy in South America and Israeli policy in Palestine. There is no picking and choosing in this argument, the war which unfortunatly now seems inevitable only relects many other situations throughout history where bloodshed perpetuates more bloodshed. The current situation brings Ireland central to this cycle. What is so wrong in taking an active stance in opposing that??

by Ray Wed Jan 08, 2003 13:07

(before complaining about deletions you should check to make sure the article was actually deleted)

Why does Indymedia delet truth????
by elevation Wed, Jan 8 2003, 11:54am
Censors

You dont like the truth do you???
Check with Clare County Council if you dont believe that an official was told to f**k off by so called peace protestors. The truth never suited you folk.

Here is the story that you censored:

A Litter Warden today refused to go to the 'Peace' Camp at Shannon to view for himself the excrement left at the scene by protestors. He said (quote) "they can clean up their own shit. I'm not getting involved with that shower!". He mentioned a Council official who visited the camp in the last couple of days only to be spat at and told to 'F**k off'.
The Environmental Health Officer was not readily available, but a message was left.

This is a serious hygiene issue and total disregard for the environment. It is irresponsible behaviour by a small minority. Hope the newspapers or TV3 picture this and show the public the type of animals who are hanging out at the 'peace' camp.

by Anonymous - Left Wing / Humanitarian Wed Jan 08, 2003 14:06

To the original author of the article, John Bingham:-

I totally agree, that the conflict in Northern Ireland warranted and warrants as much attention for peace as does the Iraqi and overall World situation.

But much was and is being done but voluntary lay people on the Northern conflict. I attended several large peace marches to try and get republican and loyalist gunmen to lay down their arms.

I personally spent much time on the issue contacting all parties involved and trying to purswade them to change their point of views and engage in dialogue etc. etc.

So efforts for peace need to be made on ALL fronts.

************************************************

To the reports of excrement being left around the camps. If this is true it bares a very bad reflection on the people involved and their associated ideology and needs to be cleaned up.

But what sanitation facilities do they have down their?? I imagine very limited.

*************************************************

And as a general comment to all involved in the Shannon peace camp - BRAVO people - magnificent work. Thank you for devoting your free time and energies. Fantastic work - Keep it up!!

by bare essential jedi. Wed Jan 08, 2003 14:27

at this link the reader ( whether critic or supporter ) will see two designs for latrine.

The most simple and quickest latrine design is a metre deep hole in the ground. a shovel should be placed next to the latrine so the earth may be left over "the business".

It is MOST important to contruct latrines away from water sources. (300 metres is recommended) though if you must dig a latrine closer to your water source do so downhill so as not to contaminate the water table.

Excretea is smelly and toxic.
Hepatitis and many other liver effecting nasty desieses are spread by contact with excretea.

It only takes an hour to dig and build a comfortable latrine.

and decoration of your "khazi" can provide fun and entertainment for all.

Remember when leaving the site to mark out latrine areas clearly for others who may come along.

In India and many other countries of Asia, bocvine excretea is collected by hand and moulded in to small combustible pancakes shaped pieces. These are then dried in the sun, and provided the poorest people with fuel to cook Rice, when there is rice.

I remember that back in the mythical days of Éire´s period of Emergency 1939-1945 such methods were used in Dubliná Phoenix park with assorted types of excretea.

if anyone needs any more top survival tips (like how to trap food, which vegetables are edible, and a handy guide to mushrooms) don´t hesitate to send me an email.
to survival jedi at
[email protected]

by Ray Wed Jan 08, 2003 15:16

This article is still on the front page. Its surely unneccessary to repost comments from this article as new articles.

by Alex - Young Fine Gael Wed Jan 08, 2003 15:26

Its a pity, thought, that a peace vigil at Shannon can be discounted in the media because of a minorities attitudes to the enviornment, but much worse, it becomes totally farcical when it includes those who have symapthies to the sectarian murder of innocent people in the name of national unity on this island...

When there is peace in the heart, there is peace in the person. When there is peace in the person, there is peace in the home. When there is peace in the home, there is peace in the town, when there is peace in the towns, there is peace in the land....

by Anonymous Wed Jan 08, 2003 15:30

I see your point.

However, I felt that the Text Poll on the Gerry Ryan show warranted a posting of its own.

It would certainly be something I, and I'm sure others, would be interested in seeing as an original posting.

The problem with comments is that they can get lost and people will only read a selected few.

Also, you are dependant on people actually clicking into the posting as well to give them some chance of seeing various comments.

The poll is also short term limited, i.e. I assume they will only go on text received today, if that is not already too late!

Given the show's high profile, I thought it would be worth publisising properly.

Finally, I just thought it would be an interesting thing to read and do. A lot of the articles can be very similar and sort of blend into one another, I thought that this, though nothing spectacular, would be something different.

by Ray Wed Jan 08, 2003 15:57

But I think there's usually no need to have a whole new article about X when there's already an existing article on the subject, especially when the original post is still on the front page. Reposting an existing comment as a new article really strikes me as unnecessary proliferation.

by Joe Sheehan - Shannon Peace Camp Wed Jan 08, 2003 16:36

On site there are no toilet facilities but we do have the use of a house nearby should the need arise or fall as the case maybe.
There are no problems with rubbish either as the site is been kept clean and tidy, all rubbish possible is being recycled and regularly taken off site.
I am not aware of anyone's political leaings other than they are all against the Attack on Iraq and all are Anti War. The only dodgy political views that have any effects on us are those of the Fianna Fail and Progressive Democrats that have made us all complicit in this build up to the run to war.

by MG Wed Jan 08, 2003 17:02

Who exactly are you referring to, Alex? The Continuity IRA does not control the Shannon camp, it does not lead the anti-war community. It's also pretty much non-existent at the moment.

Fine Gael, on the other hand, actively supports the Bush/Blair terrorist network and the FF/PD drive to get Ireland involved in a war that will kill at least 10,000 INNOCENT Iraqi civilians.

Now, whatever your views on the CIRA, they don't have that many notches on their belts.

So what's worse: the possibility that somebody from CIRA (and I still haven't seen any proof of this) supports the peace camp...

Or the reality that FG supports the murder (yes MURDER) of innocent Iraqis?

Maybe FG believes that white Irish skin is more important than brown Middle Eastern skin.

Do explain...

by start hawk Wed Jan 08, 2003 17:10

http://indymedia.ie/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi?id=23281

by o as if. Wed Jan 08, 2003 17:12

DON´T YOU think that if Shannon must be used to support the USAF strike on Iraq, (WHICH IS YOUR PARTIES STATED POSITION)
then it would better be used to transport Food Aid?
and when are you going to do something on housing on your website?

-Can you or your grown up pals (coz ye are just "19yr old ográs") explain what Shannon is being for?

-shouldn´t you be joining the campaign for
U.S. Rice and Food Aid to Iraq?

the link is for you YFG. something i promised ye last year.

by Alex - Young Fine Gael Wed Jan 08, 2003 17:59

Ok, so if you think that having a person at the shannon 'peace' camp who has supported terrorism in Ireland, can campagain to 'stop the war' is not a contradiction, then fine, I am wrong, and apologise. But if you think someting stinks here...

by Ironic really. - YFG supporter Wed Jan 08, 2003 18:02

Well now, people. I direct you to a previous posting on indymedia.

Mary Kelly to be honoured by Continuity IRA support group
by Tom O'Donnell Mon, Nov 25 2002, 4:45pm
Radio Free Eireann in New York City, hosted by John McDonough, has announced that well known peace activist Mary Kelly, will be the guest of honour at the annual dinner-dance of the Irish Natinal Freedom Committee in January. The INFC is the support group for the Continuity IRA based in New York and headed by McDonough. The proceeds from the event will go the Continuity IRA prisoners including Colm Murphy, the only person convicted in the Omagh bombing.

http://www.irishfreedom.net/intro.html
You will note from the website that Mary Kelly is being honored for her 'peace efforts'. Fair play to ya Mary.

You will note that irishfreedom.net state 'They acted, at that time, out of concern for what they believed to be a betrayal in the making of traditional Republican principles and values by the leadership of Provisional Sinn Fein in Ireland. History proved them right.'

Yep Mary, Omagh proved you right. 29 deaths plus that of a preganant women with twins. Well done on your 'Peace Efforts'

Well done. How proud your fellow protesters at Shannon must be of you. Well done, enjoy the award cermony in America at the end of January.

Best of luck to the Shannon protesters. I support you, but not the principles of irishfreedom.net nor the people they wish to honor.

Well done once more Mary on your 'peace efforts'

by Ray Wed Jan 08, 2003 18:27

If a comment is posted as an article again, it will be deleted again.

by Anonymous Wed Jan 08, 2003 18:29

I agree in that, "usually" there is not the need and over use of such lead to "proliferation" as you state. But usually implies sometimes, I certainly believe that on some occasions that if a comment is important enuf it should be allowed to be re-posted as an article.

Fair enuf if you didn't think the one that I re-posted wasn't, but I think the option should be left open for certain circumstances.

*******************************************

Ref. Joe Sheehan, Shannon Peace Camp re. Camp Cleanliness.

Very glad to hear ye are keeping things tidy down there. That is what I expected. I never really believe the earlier posting about the place being wretched.

Vital to keep this up though I reckon.

The right wingers, the pro Bush/Blairs and the mainstream media would love to pick on ye and ye're supporters by pointing to any weaknesses such as this.

Well up ye!

by MG Wed Jan 08, 2003 18:33

...let me see.

1) Mary Kelly is not a member of the Continuity IRA, she was being honoured for her non-violent defence of the Palestinian people. Do you consider this to be terrorism?

2) Fine Gael supports the illegal and impending US/British war on Iraq, which will kill at least 10,000 Iraqi civilians. Do you not think it is hypocritical for you to be attacking Mary Kelly and the people at the peace camp, when you and your political masters support widespread murder?

4) Do you consider a war for oil which will kill so many people to be justified? Would you consider a war to be justified if the UN inspectors find no evidence of WMDs? Do you consider the deaths of 10,000 people to be acceptable? (If so, surely a few deaths in the cause of Irish freedom are also acceptable...)

3) Do you consider brown Middle Eastern skin to be less worthy of life than white Irish skin?

4) Would you please stop being a wannabe politician and answer the question. Just look at your previous response. You did not reply to any of the points I raised

5) Is there some special day in the YFG office when all these budding yuppies come onto indymedia.ie and try to convince the "socialists" that they're wrong and FG is right. Sure won't Enda "Nigger" Kenny be very happy if ye can get back one vote out of the tens of thousands ye lost last May...

by In support of Alex Wed Jan 08, 2003 18:47

1. I am a FG supporter and I am of 'Middle Eastern Skin' as you so describe me. Thank you for describing me as such. FG have had TD's who are not from the majority Catholic population...We have had Jewish and Protestant TD's.

2. Mary Kelly is not a member of Continuity IRA if you say so (how do we know for sure?) but she sure the hell is being supported by them.

3. Check out Michael Noonan's Dail question on Military Neutrailty to the Minister for Foreign Affairs.http://www.gov.ie/debates-02/23Oct/Sect8.htm

4. You accuse 'ironic' of racism but you persume that FG members are only white and you describe Enda Kenny with the term 'nigger.' Have a look at your own beliefs and assumptions please.

5. Stop distracting from the fact that Mary Kelly is being honoured by an organisation who are the finanical wing of the murders of the 29 people in Omagh. I quote you 'If so, surely a few deaths in the cause of Irish freedom are also acceptable...' I have nothing more to say to that.
Check out http://free.freespeech.org/IRWAC/Newspaper/ifc_testimonal_success.htm for confirmation.

by Alex Wed Jan 08, 2003 19:08

So I am 'against' the people of the middle east, or consider them inferior. Don't remember stating that, and don't remember being asked what I thought of the Iraq situation.

But its ok for you to be Prejudiced against me for my political beliefs! 1933 all over again it appears!!

I am trying to express a view point, which would actually enhance the shannon Peace Vigil, but instead you are hell bent on 'having a pop at the Bluie Shirt'.

by PDQ - YFG Wed Jan 08, 2003 19:16

and I wish to protest at the vilification of our leader Enda "Nigger Joke" Kenny. It's all very well for you extremist left-wing indymedia types to criticise him, but I'm a black Iraqi and I support the bombing of the dictatorial regime in order to save the people there. I am appalled by the racism on this site which dares to question my credentials.

by In support of Alex Wed Jan 08, 2003 19:23

Supposed FG supporter, no need for that. Its amazing, the only time I have read any posts with a hint of racism it certainly has not been posted by a YFGer.

You are determined to get us off this website!!!

Here's to free speach for all!

Now, can we not stick to the issues here, Shannon, Mary, et al...

by Chuck Wed Jan 08, 2003 19:34

"Its a pity, thought, that a peace vigil at Shannon can be discounted in the media because of a minorities attitudes to the enviornment, but much worse, it becomes totally farcical when it includes those who have symapthies to the sectarian murder of innocent people in the name of national unity on this island..."

"Ok, so if you think that having a person at the shannon 'peace' camp who has supported terrorism in Ireland, can campagain to 'stop the war' is not a contradiction, then fine, I am wrong, and apologise. But if you think someting stinks here..."

Yeah, something stinks here alright! Alex would you care to answer the following questions:

1. Are you suggesting that the peace camp is a good thing? Do you support the use of Shannon airport by the US military? Does YFG?

2. Is there any evidence that the story about the horrific killer dump is true?

3. Who has sympathies for the sectarian murderers of innocent people?

4. Who are the supporters of terrorism at the peace camp?

5. Which is the only country in the world convicted of terrorism by the world court (hint, they are currently using an Irish airport to transfer unknown cargo to launch a higher intensity war than the current illegal war they are waging)?

Alex, you have made serious allegations on this website. If you don't back them up they may be considered as unfounded allegations, not very nice from Young Fine Gael.

by MG Wed Jan 08, 2003 19:47

A few points:

Mr "In support of Alex" -

The Continuity IRA (or its fund-raisers) chose to support Mary Kelly's perfectly legal and non-violent efforts to help the oppressed Palestinians. I doubt Mary lobbied for this support. Mary has committed no crime in Palestine and is not committing a crime by protesting outside Shannon Airport. So please, stop trying to paint her as a terrorist or a terrorist supporter. If you have a problem with my views, then attack me, not her...

I did not accuse "Ironic" of racism. All I did was ask Alex does he consider Middle Eastern people (I'm sorry if the reference to brown skin offended you - believe me, it wasn't intended) to be inferior. The reason for this was because his stance re: Mary Kelly suggests that he believes supporting the IRA is wrong, but supporting the war against Iraq is right - the only difference I can see is that the IRA's victims are Irish and British, while Bush/Blair's victims will be Middle Eastern.

When I said "(If so, surely a few deaths in the cause of Irish freedom are also acceptable...)" I was not saying that I believe these deaths were acceptable. I was trying to highlight the contradictions in Alex's previous posting. For the record, the taking of innocent lives, no matter what the circumstances, is never (NEVER, NEVER, NEVER - in case it needs repeating) acceptable.

What has Michael Noonan's spineless question got to do with anything?

The reason I gave Enda Kenny the nickname "Nigger" is because he used the word when telling a joke to journalists last year. I thought a member of FG (as you say you are) would remember that embarrassing incident.

To Alex:

I notice you still haven't answered any of the questions I asked. Instead, you got a bunch of your wannabe yuppie mates to write a couple of postings that also avoid the issue. All I'm asking for is an intelligent debate on the point you raised (i.e. attempting to portray Mary Kelly as a terrorist because a group she has no affiliation with decided to honour her for her brave, non-violent and legal activities).

From what I've read, yes, you are against the people of the Middle East. Your party supports the murder of innocent civilians in Iraq. Enough said.

I'm not prejudiced against you because of your political beliefs, I'm prejudiced against you because, as I've already said, the party you are affiliated to supports the murder of innocent civilians.

You are perfectly entitled to your viewpoint, but if you want to contribute to a political website like indymedia.ie you must expect others to highlight the contradictions in these viewpoints when they arise.

To PDQ:

You are also entitled to your views and again I apologise if any of the language I used offended you. That was not my intention.

I do not support the imminent bombing and invasion of Iraq. I do not believe that killing at least 10,000 people will "save the people there" or that replacing Saddam Hussein with an equally dictatorial US puppet will free Iraq. However, if you have evidence that Ahmed Chalabi and his war criminal colleagues are really decent people who have the interests of the Iraqi people at heart, then post it here and you might be able to change my mind.

I am appalled that you consider my previous postings to be racist. I am also appalled that - as a black Iraqi - you are a member of a party whose leader makes "nigger" jokes.

To everybody else:

Sorry about the lenght of this shit. If only Alex had answered the question in the first place...

by Alex (yes, my name IS Alex) - YFG Wed Jan 08, 2003 19:59

1. Yes, the Peace Camp is a good thing, people are free to express their opinion in this country, and I firmly believe protest is good. I have not, and will not attend the peace camp, I don't live near Shannon, and even if I did, I would not support it. I don't agree with the US position on Iraq, don't agree with Bush and his handeling of the issue, and I don't agree with Saddam Hussain and his 'management' of his country. I am a democrat. For the record, YFG is offically in support of The US position on Iraq, but as stated above, I, like many members of YFG do not agree with this stance. Be we are a democratic organisation, and sometimmes people disagree.
2. ??
3.You better believe it, C-IRA and some of their other dissadent 'republican' allies do believe that bombings, such as Omagh, were neccessary. I think that this is disgusting. And who else; 30 years of Northern Troubles, approx. 3500 dead, read a little about them.
4. See: 'Mary Kelly honored by Omagh bombers
by In support of Alex Wed, Jan 8 2003, 5:47pm'
5. It wouldn't be North Korea??

Hope this clears things up. Now, having someone 'honoured' by those responsible for bloody slaughter in our country, and currently in the business of exporting terrorism (rivals for the US, you might say, but all is fair in terrorism and the free market!), by some accounts, present in Shannon. Does this bother anyone. If not, well... I will shut up!

by In support of Alex Wed Jan 08, 2003 22:30

Fair play to Mary on her good works in Plastine.

Shame they have are discredited by her association with the Continuity IRA (the same people behind the Omagh bomb)award.

Fair play to ya Mary.

by iosaf Wed Jan 08, 2003 22:40

not only have i above told you how to make a good latrine, for the poo.

and I´ve also asked YFG two questions.

1. since your party supports the US action against Iraq, could you not campaign that Shannon be used only for humanitarian Food Aid?

you´d have lots of support here and in the USA.
and it would look good on your permanent record.
(trust me I know lots anout people´s permanent records).
in fact I´d gladly help you out with a list of congressmen senators and the like, just for ye.
------------------aren´t i a crafty svengali¿?

2. when are you going to mention housing on your website?
since you showed such an interest in homelessness.
and you know they answered!
YFG left a comment at http://www.ireland.indymedia.org/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi?id=22462&start=0&sid=15301

well young Alex did.
great future for him.

how´s your latin Alex?

non exercitus neque thesauri praesidia regni sunt verum amici.
: think about Rice for Iraq Alex, I can offer you a long career in politics.
;-)

depending on how you do with the Latin I may move on to Greek. coz you don´t like gaelic do you?
(the ógra jab really get´s your back up).
(and highlighting CIRA links to one person at the peace camp is politically very stupid).
(be most careful with that one young cyber pal).

by Des Thu Jan 09, 2003 01:33

Whatever the views of any person on the Republican military campaign in the north, one factual comment that can be made is that the resources of PIRA or the INLA/are miniscule compared the military potential of the world’s only superpower, the good old USA. The CIRA were not responsible for the massacre on the Basra highway (what the yank pilots called a “turkey shoot”) nor were they responsible for the deaths of half a million Iraqi children. “Terrorists” such as Bush and Blair would make the above mentioned paramilitary groups look like unruly children. The forthcoming war on the Iraqi people is simply a resource war, countless people are going to die for cheap oil. The establishment parties (including FG) support this forthcoming aggression against a third world country. Hypocritical drivel re deaths in the northern conflict is just that. Concern yourself with the lives of innocent men, women and children in Iraq Alex, I know they are not wasps but their lives have almost the same value as ours. Don’t worry Alex about the normal bodily functions of the people at the peace camp. It’s reasonably safe to say that they are all aware of where the bathroom is. Still, it’s good to know that YFG has got a policy on shit. Give Enda “Nigger” Kenny my regards when you see him. Maybe he thinks that Iraqis are “niggers” too.

by OMAGH was REAL Thu Jan 09, 2003 12:07

I can't beleive this forum!

'the resources of PIRA or the INLA/are miniscule compared the military potential of the world’s only superpower' as quoted last.

So the Omagh bombing was justified then?

CRAP

by Omagh, Tyrone, Ireland Thu Jan 09, 2003 12:14

For 'minisule resources' they still mangaged to kill 29 people plus a mother pregnant with twins.

Fair play to ya.

by Chuck Thu Jan 09, 2003 12:26

Alex,

I asked question 2 (with a dash of sarcasm) because of the following phrase: “…a peace vigil at Shannon can be discounted in the media because of a minorities attitudes to the environment…”.

Question 3 should have read who at the peace camp has sympathies for the sectarian murderers of innocent people? Please support your allegations and your connection between the C-IRA and the peace camp with some evidence.

You have made serious allegations against a participant in the peace camp. You have alleged that they support terrorism and as evidence you suggest that they were honoured for previous activity (which you might agree was commendable ie the protecting of innocent civilians from an occupying military force) by an organisation which is involved in terrorism. There are surely myriad instances of people who have been honoured by organisations that they do not support (or even despise) or whose ideals they agree with but whose methods they do not support. You have provided no evidence whatsoever that the individual you name supports terrorism in any shape or form, in fact their actions would suggest that they are vehemently opposed to it. If you have any convincing evidence to the contrary, let us see it.
On the other hand, there is ample evidence that YFG and FG support terrorism. These organisations support the use of Irish airports and airspace by a foreign military organisation for the purposes of engaging in terrorist activity. This activity includes the deliberate bombing of civilian infrastructure in the 1991 Gulf War, illegal in international law; the ongoing “low intensity” (explain that to the innocent murdered) illegal bombing in the northern and southern “no-fly” zones which are themselves illegal. I use inverted comma’s because the nortrhern “no-fly” zone is frequently used by the Turkish air force to attack and kill Kurdish people, the ones allegedly protected by the “no-fly” zone in that area.
FG and, I presume, YFG support the sanctions on Iraq. Dennis Halliday, Irish former head of the UN humanitarian mission in Iraq calls the sanctions regime genocide. He is supported in this by Tom Nagi, a US professor who found documents on the internet which prove that the US knew what the exact results would be of blocking the equipment necessary to fix the water treatment works and distribution systems in Iraq which were deliberately and illegally targeted in the 1991 war. They predicted widespread disease and death. The United Nations documented the death of at least FIVE HUNDREN THOUSAND CHILDREN as a result of the sanctions by 1998 (that’d be four years ago). When then US secretary of state, Madeleine Albright was asked about this, she responded that she felt that it was, on balance(!) “...a price worth paying...”, accepting the figure as plausible.
The US has also used depleted weapons in all its overt war campaigns since the 1991 war. These weapons are illegal in international law. We, including the Irish state, have no idea what the planes which pass illegally (according to the Defence Act and the Constitution) through our airports and airspace are carrying. The guardai suggest that it is the responsibility of the US military planes using our airports and airspace to declare if they are carrying anything illegal (that would include foreign soldiers in military uniform, guns, bombs, depleted uranium, anti-personel “droplets”, nuclear weapons, etc in this country). This is not the view of the customs or guardai in the normal exercise of their duties. Usually, where there is reasonable suspicion of illegal activity, there is an investigation. There is proof of illegal activity in Shannon (soldiers in foreign military uniforms; who would contest that there’s not likely to be any guns or bombs on the planes?), where’s the investigation?
There rests my proof that FG and YFG and many others support terrorism.

The answer to question 5 is the United States of America who were convicted of terrorism in the world court for their actions in Nicaragua. They were ordered to pay $30 billion in compensation (not positive about the figure) to Nicaragua but, as is their want, they ignored the ruling of the world court and Nicaragua received not a cent.

by Ray Thu Jan 09, 2003 13:45

Don't post them as articles, and don't repost them in the same thread.

by legal jedi careerist watch Thu Jan 09, 2003 14:30

a most foolish card to play.
No one can deny that 29 dead in one day is awful.
But to raise it on this thread in such a way?
I remember I was in Sardinia and my girlfriend of that time´s father showed me the local newspaper with the Omagh news.
He said "each time the worst becomes the worst".

The mafia fired shots through his front windows in 1976. They knew no-one is in the room, it was merely "warning shots", to discourage a middle agd poilitician from fighting serious crime issues in Sardinia at the time (kidnapping was rife).

He then said "the worst will never let the worst heal".

In the best tradition of tabloid sensationalist journalism "I made my excuses and left".

by In support of Alex Thu Jan 09, 2003 15:14

I like the sentiments... could you explain a bit more?

by Alex - YFG Thu Jan 09, 2003 16:11

Hi,

Firstly, I dont agree with a war against Iraq for any old reason - as I have stated previously, I am a democrat, and I respect the UN as the ultimate decision maker on this issue.

My initial point was that the shannon peace vigil (noble cause it is - I respect that) is compromised because Mary Kelly recieved an award or other from people who think that its fine to kill and maim a la Omagh. She didnt have to take it! I didnt say that Mary was in the C-IRA, but she is, by association, giving creedence to them. I know you dont agree with me.

As for Palestine, its not a mere black and white 'whose side are we on' arguement, the IRA helped the PLO develop their rockets and morters used to 'great' effect on innocent Israeli civilians. I support a lot of the Palenistine cause, but not the terrorists. And without US support over the years, there would have been another holocaust in Israel!

By the way, the first YFG branch I was a member of had moslems from Pakistan as members, we are a pluralist party with a very wide ranging membership who would be particularly insulted by being accused of being racists, and I am sick of your lame attacking of our party leader. You and I well know that there are people in Oireachtas Eireann, in more than one party, who in the past have been guilty of incitement to hatred of ethnic minorities. Leave Enda out of it!

Oh, check out YFG's work on refugees from round about 94/95 before you start moralising to me.

As always, its been a pleasure,

A

by MG Thu Jan 09, 2003 16:32

I respect all of your viewpoints, but disagree with most of them. All the same, thanks for answering the questions and engaging (eventually) in a debate. Wouldn't you agree that's it's better to debate issues as serious as Iraq and hear everybody's stance on the matter, rather than avoiding the issue with a red herring about one member of the Shannon peace camp who - through no fault of her own - was honoured by a US-based organisation which raises funds for the families of imprisoned "terrorists"?

For the record, I would have declined to accept the "award", but what Mary Kelly does is her business and nobody else's.

In my view, your slander against Mary Kelly - someone you've probably never met - was hypocritical because of your party's support for the war on Iraq and associated murders of thousands of innocent civilians (the latest UN report says 500,000 civilians will be killed or injured if Bush/Blair attack Iraq - source: today's Daily Mirror).

Re: Enda Kenny. I've spoken to him on a number of occasions since the election (I'm a journalist) and I agree that he is very friendly and likeable. However, his support for war against Iraq suggests to me that he does not care one jot about the Iraqi civilians who will suffer. This, in my view, cancels out his friendliness and I will continue to criticise him and his right-wing policies. (Out of curiosity, have you ever met your esteemed leader? Ever had a one-on-one conversation with him? Wouldn't it be funny if Enda Kenny spent more time talking to a pinko lefty like me than he did talking to a member of the youth wing of his own party?)

by Chuck Thu Jan 09, 2003 18:30

Alex,
Do you deny that FG and YFG amongst many others support terrorism as outlined in my last comment?

by Des Thu Jan 09, 2003 19:55

How dare both of you suggest that I would ever attempt to excuse or condone the Omagh bombing, what I was pointing out was that if the CIRA were condemned for the Omagh bombing (an appalling crime), then words to describe the crimes of U.S. imperialism do not exist. HALF A MILLION IRAQI CHILREN HAVE DIED, and the deaths of those children left Albright cold. Now that’s what I call “terrorism”. The people at the Shannon peace camp are protesting against an action replay of such crimes. FG and YFG support such crimes as do our “government” who display their support for another aggressive war by allowing the use of Shannon airport by U.S. aircraft.

by In support of Alex Thu Jan 09, 2003 20:49

Yeah.

Of course YFG and FG support the deaths of HALF A MILLION IRAQI CHILDREN. Why won't any human with feelings and emotions.

We also supported the holocost, Bosnia...

We love war and death as much as the next person.

Just thought you'd like to know how silly I think your comments are by being equally silly in my response.

Fair play to ya.

by Des Thu Jan 09, 2003 22:01

How on earth can one have a debate with cretins such as the author of the last "comment", and the same goes for the cretin who suggested that the yanks had to bomb Iraq in order to "save" the Iraqi people. Anyone remember the yank major in Vietnam who said "in order to save the village, we had to destroy it"!!!!!!

by iosaf best tradition of tabloid journalism explains more - for the benefit of YFG friend. Fri Jan 10, 2003 11:47

I was accounting for my whereabouts.
I was in Sardinia when Omagh happened and then was reported.
Long Long ago when I suppose Alex and many others of ogra fine gael were still in school, I got used to accounting for my whereabouts.
I can tell you where I was on many important dates in Irish and European and Global history.
such as Sept 11 2001.
I was awaiting news from Campaign Against the Arms Trade´s protest at the largest arms fair ever held in London, I was celebrating Catalan national day in Barcelona with a woman confined to a wheelchair since a car accident in Ibiza.
such as Sept 29 1979.
I was pissing against a tree whilst the Pope (great man) composed his thoughts in a helicopter lent by the norwegian state to the Gardaí.

I was also illustrating that I and many others have all our lives spent outside of Ireland and the anglo-american world spent hours upon hours explaining "what is really happening in Ireland".
And many more hours "making our excuses and leaving".

One does not need to read Samuel Beckett´s "Murphy" [incidently the only writer to both win the Nobel prize and represent his country at national level in cricket] to realise that generation upon generation of Irish have had to concede with prejudice and mis-understanding of the national question.
And more galling to contend with "tabloid sensationalist point scoring" by those who should know better who regularly try and reopen those sores.

The morning of Canary Wharf I was in London.
in my flat at Lambeth Bridge, I heard the explosion and spent the next day "making my excuses" to dental and medical student friends of Thomas´ hospital.

The afternoon of the rocket attack on the SSI building at Vauxhall I was putting finishing touches to a stone sculpture in the back garden of my squat in Hackney.

The evening of the Manchester bombing I was picking my way through rioting Scottish and English football fans as I returned home from Charing X Road.

I can remember all these.
and tell you where I was.
and tell you what I was asked thereafter.

I can also tell you that when the IRA declared a ceasefire 8 years ago, I was one of those who was touched by a great sense of optimism and relief.
I was engaged then in detailed correspondence with various groupings in Ireland north and south and England concerning the Peace Process.

I can tell you that I thought then what I think now, that the long road to peace and justice, reconciliation and "parity of esteem" for the myriad communities and identities and cultural streams of Ireland north and south would be just that " a long road".

And that many had set out upon that road without any sign of hope. That they had been left in the wilderness where only the tabloid sensationalist soundbites and recriminations are heard.

I never attempted to excuse the moral breaches of the Irish conflict. I never have written or said that any bombing, killing or maiming could be condoned, but nor have I ever thought that the phase of our history could be left without dialogue.

Thus I supported the release of Irish Republican Prisoners, and accordingly wore a green ribbon. I was not a member of SF or any of it´s allied groupings. The strength of prejudice and "tabloid sensationalism" that I met for wearing that symbol back in those days when SF and many others walked "alone in their wilderness" only made me more resolute to support dialogue as an obligatory part of conflict resolution.

I have since left Ireland and travelled and lived in many other countries, many of which have similar national question debates.

I have pointed to the progress and absence of carnage and pointless waste of life and ability that the Irish/British conflict gave generations of Irish and British people.

I suggest that the next generation of Irish do the same.

You can not even begin to think about South America, Iraq, Palestine unless you look to your own back yards and make at times difficult choices.

I am so glad you liked the sentiments.

I and many like me will go on "accounting for our whereabouts" for many years to come. Something I sincerely hope you never have had or will have to do.
Thus as I have written before on this newswire the morning of the Stormont raid I was stopped by members of the FIS Spanish Police political division and asked for my identification whilst enjoying my regular night time stroll. I joked how the next day I returned to that place and interviewed the Catalan police officer who bore responsiblity for gaurding the Catalan government on psychological defences against Madrid, and that evening I took part in a demonstration with approx 300 people "against the criminalisation of independent political organisations".
I did so as an Irish man and as an anarchist and one who has some sympathy for the cause of Catalan independence and who can remember all my life the abuse of Law to proscribe legitimate political wishes.
And when legitimate political wishes are proscribed then violence comes soon after.

o as if.

by MG Fri Jan 10, 2003 14:40

Your party supports the war on Iraq. This is the public stance. Anyone with a brain can read between the lines and deduce that support for war on Iraq equals support for the killing and maiming of civilians. There has never been a war without civilian casualties and there won't be one in Iraq. Your sarcastic and trite comment above is an insult to the people of Iraq and an insult to the intelligence of the Irish public.

If you support a war of invasion in pursuit of cheap oil, then you support murder (and what's worse, murder for the sake of money, the true source of all evil). You and your attitude disgust me. Condemnation for the IRA's murders (no more than 2,000 people) and support for Bush's murders (at least 10,000, according to experts - and many more if he continues with his policy of pre-emption). This is the height of hypocrisy. You should be ashamed.

I asked earlier in this thread if Alex believed that Irish lives were superior to Middle Eastern lives. I put that question to you now. I predict that your answer will be "no". If so, why do you and your right-wing idols support the murder of Iraqi civilians and condemn the murder of Irish civilians?

by iosaf Fri Jan 10, 2003 18:56

and ironed shirts.