Motor Insurance Justice Action Group (MIJAG) to stand in election

by Finghin Tue Feb 12, 2002 12:59

David Greene (MIJAG candidate in DMW) works in IBM in Mulhuddard West Dublin. They do not provide transport for their workers. In fact there is no proper bus service to IBM and many of these industrial estates in the West of Dublin. This forces young workers to get cars and therefor pay the rip off car insurance.

by ex dell worker Fri Feb 08, 2002 20:27

dont know about the rest of the country but in limerick dell provide free buses to the three factories they have. they run through all of the suburbs the city centre and even as far as tipperary. basically people working those type of hours are often outside bus running times and too tired to drive safely

by Finghin Thu Feb 07, 2002 17:21 info at syucd dot cjb dot net

ME: You dissmiss the MIJAG campaign because of what it stands for? well what exactly do you dissmiss? is it the fact that we stand up for discriminated against young workers against the bloodsucking insurance companies.Is it the principle of ordinary workers opposing the ripp off insurance companies?

YOU: EVERYONE regardless of their income or stature in
society should LEAVE THEIR CARS AT HOME.

ME: You say everyone in society should leave their car at home. I would agree with you if there was an adequate public transport system. Because of rises in house prices, caused by the clique of land speculators, people can no longer afford houses close to their place of work, what about these people? Do you expect people living as far away from Dublin as Carlow and Dundalk to cycle or walk to work in Dublin?

YOU:Whether you're "working", "middle", "bourgeois"
or whatever outdated concept of social bracketing

ME: Class - an outdated concept! well what has made it so? have we reached a developed socialist society and nobody has told me?
The apparent fact is that class does exist and that it does shape our politics and society. Look at Argentina, how can you explain developments there if class does not exist?

by path Wed Feb 06, 2002 11:03

Brian Cahill: The main thrust of your complaint seems to be that pesky young people or poor people shouldn't be let near cars and that they should cycle miles to work

Me: I think EVERYONE should cycle to work and get public transport as much as possible. I am fully in favour of hiking the prices of everything car-related - the car itself, petrol, tax, road tolls, and insurance.

Brian Cahill: You ask why MIJAG doesn't "liase" with Fine Gael or Fianna Fail on the issue. In reality both recieve large amounts of money from the insurance companies and neither will ever attack business interests to help young people. Ever.

Me: Considering they are campaigning and canvassing among young people for the EXACT same thing that you are, you never know, it might do some good to talk to them.

Brian Cahill: Your dismissal of the chances for success of any campaign which organises independently and doesn't collaborate with the right-wing parties is pessimistic and defeatist.

Me: Here now hang on a minute. I'm not dismissive of any campaign that organises independently (please dont say "any campaign", I think we are only discussing ONE campaign ONLY here - stop making assumptions or generalisations about my opinions) - thats what the Critical Mass is and I am heavily involved in that, and every month we're in direct contact with a 'right wing party', that is the Garda, who try and force us off the street to get space for motorists to pass by. I'm just dismissive of YOUR campaign because of what it stands for. I actually think it has nothing to do with "social inequality" (I got over class politics a long time ago). EVERYONE regardless of their income or stature in society should LEAVE THEIR CARS AT HOME.

Whether you're "working", "middle", "bourgeois" or whatever outdated concept of social bracketing you think you're in, everyone still has a part to play in making this city liveable again. Get on your bike. Cycle to work. You'll feel healthier and you wont be damaging the environment. You'll be less stressed when you get home and will be more willing to interact with your partner/kids/family. A bike is infinitely cheaper to run than a car.

Any measures which aim to give greater access to cars are misguided and will only destroy this beautiful city more.

by Brian Cahill - Socialist Party Tue Feb 05, 2002 18:59 nigel_irritable at yahoo dot com

The main thrust of your complaint seems to be that pesky young people or poor people shouldn't be let near cars and that they should cycle miles to work or get public transport and if profiteering insurance companies help force them out of cars, then well done to the businessmen.

As far as I am concerned, that attitude is an example of the blindness many, otherwise solid, Greens have towards social inequality. This country has an appalling public transport system and few facilities for cyclists. Using buses or cycling everywhere just isn't an option for everybody. We need a decent public transport system - and that is something which the Socialist Party, amongst many others, campaigns for. But in the meantime we shouldn't let a small business cartel gouge cash out of young working people - which is why, again along with many others, we are involved in MIJAG.

You ask why MIJAG doesn't "liase" with Fine Gael or Fianna Fail on the issue. In reality both recieve large amounts of money from the insurance companies and neither will ever attack business interests to help young people. Ever.

Your dismissal of the chances for success of any campaign which organises independently and doesn't collaborate with the right-wing parties is pessimistic and defeatist. Working people have won major concessions and defeated a host of social injustices (on a much grander scale than the insurance rip-off) by organising themselves. The anti-Poll Tax campaign in Britain involved 18 million households, hundreds of thousands of whom took an active role. The anti-water tax federations here in Dublin also defeated a similar attack on working class people - without "liasing" with the likes of Fianna Fail or Fine Gael.

by path Tue Feb 05, 2002 16:34

F Kelly: But in many areas such as rural areas or in many indeustrail estates in the west of Dublin there is simply no public transport. If I am not mistaken David Greene works in Dell, there is no public transport to his place of work.

I sincerely doubt there is no public transport to Dell (is this in Limerick you are talking about? Sorry I dont know if they have a plant in Dublin or not), but either way he can get on his bike. An average cyclist can easily do between 10 and 15 miles in an hour, if not more than that. In most cases, especially in Dublin, you'll probably get there quicker than going in a car. I also work in an industrial estate (Ballycoolin, if it matters) and I could easily get a lift every day if I wanted but I dont, I cycle the 3 miles or so, regardless of the weather.

You keep talking about young, poor people. Cost of new Fiat Punto: 10,000. Cost of new bike: 200. Am I missing something here? Is it not plainly obvious what the better choice is if you are young and poor? Regardless of environmental and safety factors (which are inherently linked anyway.. but I'll skate over them this time)

F Kelly: Some say that young drivers are justifiably charged extra as they are at a greater risk. Statistics have shown that young inexperienced drivers are twice as likely to have acccidents, however young drivers must pay 8 times the average premium. Is this fair?

Fair??? Are you serious? Do you think that the people injured and the families of those killed in road accidents think its "fair" what happened to them? What is the extra cost of one human life? You're even openly admitting here that young drivers are the cause of accidents, but seem to glossing over it because they have to pay a bit more.

F. Kelly: Surely a better and fairer system would be to have every driver when they start off paying the average premium, then if you are a reckless driver you could pay more.

Yeah thats great: we can have loads of young lads driving around on cheaper insurance, but only after they kill or injure someone else, then they can pay more. Thats a real answer alright. Insurance costs do come down anyway after a couple of years, if you have had no accidents. Younger male drivers are punished, because, time after time after time, it is them who are the cause of accidents, through reckless driving.

F. Kelly: Young FG and Ogra FF may be campaigning on this, but for them ultimatly it is a cynical exercise, their parties recieve large donation from the insurance companies. When it comes down to it they will only tinker around the issue and not really change a thing.

Why dont you liase with them then and formulate a possible program for change after the election? Because realistically, unfortunately, one of them is going to be in power again. When it comes down to it, MIJAG will only be able to tinker around the issue and not really change a thing.

F. Kelly: FOr those ANarchist types that oppose standing in elections to highlight a campaign -

I dont oppose standing in elections to highlight a campaign. I just oppose your campaign, regardless of whether you run for election or not.

by Finghin Kelly Tue Feb 05, 2002 13:51

I do agree that there can be a certain degree of selfishness in car use, especially when there is an adequate public transport in your area. But in many areas such as rural areas or in many indeustrail estates in the west of Dublin there is simply no public transport. If I am not mistaken David Greene works in Dell, there is no public transport to his place of work. This is madness what we need is a fully integrated and planned public transport system in Dublin and throughout the country. But in the meantime people do need cars and they are being ripped off by Insurance companies.
Some say that young drivers are justifiably charged extra as they are at a greater risk. Statistics have shown that young inexperienced drivers are twice as likely to have acccidents, however young drivers must pay 8 times the average premium. Is this fair? You can check the MIJAG site for all the details of that survey (www.mijag.com). Surely a better and fairer system would be to have every driver when they start off paying the average premium, then if you are a reckless driver you could pay more. If you are a carefull driver why should you be descriminated just because of your age or gender?
Young FG and Ogra FF may be campaigning on this, but for them ultimatly it is a cynical exercise, their parties recieve large donation from the insurance companies. When it comes down to it they will only tinker around the issue and not really change a thing.
FOr those ANarchist types that oppose standing in elections to highlight a campaign, experience has shown the incorrectness of this position, just look at the 1996 by election when anti Water tax candidate went within 300 vote of taking a seat. THat put the water tax on the agenda and helped towards the abolition of the tax in Dublin and throughout the country.

by path - cultural tong Tue Feb 05, 2002 11:25

nigel_irritable wrote: At present cars are a necessity for many people, particularly in rural areas. For most others they are just useful.

The new constituency of Dublin Mid-West is hardly what I would call a rural area. Last time I checked I didnt see any farms around Lucan and Clondalkin. You could easily smear MIJAG as an opportunistic campaign aimed at a young constituency, just hungry for a Dail seat and not having a genuine answer to road deats and congestion, but I'm not in the habit of unfairly labelling people I dont know.

The problem with Dublin and car culture is that EVERYONE thinks their need for a car is tantamount. Even more so in the suburbs, including those in Dublin Mid-West. I have to get somewhere fast, I'll just break this red light, nobody will see me if I go in the bus lane, I have to drop the kids to school [even if its a ten minute walk for them], my journey is more important than yours.

The growth of an "edge city" means that many people who live in the M50 zone work there too, e.g. in large industrial zones such as Leixlip/Louisa Bridge, CityWest, Sandyford, Ballycoolin & Snugboro, etc. Yet cycling doesnt seem to be an option for many - and I think this is pure laziness. Cars are seen as a product of comfort (and status).

You mention insurance companies screwing young people over. What about car manufacturers screwing young people over? Everywhere you go, you see ads of these gleaming machines, portrayed as sexy, affluent, symbols and spectacles of desire. How much does a car cost a young person? And then compare that with a cost of an average mountain bike? I'd be more worried about the cabal of the motor companies than the insurance companies if I were you.

Does MIJAG have any other aims or goals with their election campaign or are they a single issue horse? Do you have any initiatives to stop road deaths in tandem with a drop in insurance rates? Do you think that it should be more difficult to get a driving license? Would you be in favour of reduced speed limits on the roads if this meant a drop in insurance rates?

I'll have a look at the website again today to see if I can find the answers to these questions.

by chris Tue Feb 05, 2002 10:26

Young drivers screwed by the "insurance cartel"? What the hell are you talking about? Young male drivers are, stastically speaking, the worst drivers on the face of the earth. They cause the most accidents, the most deaths, etc. Of course they should have to pay higher insurance rates. If you don't want to be "screwed", they don't buy a car.

chris

by Brian Cahill - Socialist Party Mon Feb 04, 2002 20:40 nigel_irritable at yahoo dot com

At present cars are a necessity for many people, particularly in rural areas. For most others they are just useful. The insurance companies gouge money out young people in particular if they want to have access to a car, like all businesses they look for and exploit monopoly privileges. Insurance charges also disproportionately hit those on low incomes. I see no contradiction between campaigning against a powerful capitalist cartel and at the same time wanting to see decent public transport and bicycle lanes.

You may want to discourage people from owning cars by allowing business to expoit them, but all you succeed in doing is restricting car ownership to older or richer people. If your primary political goal is cutting down on car numbers that may be acceptable to you. But that isn't my political goal - environmentalism is just part of a struggle for an equitable world.

by Dubsky Mon Feb 04, 2002 20:18 eoin at greensoc dot org

Young Fine Gael have been promoting this sort of thing in my college (DCU) since the start of the year. I expect Ogra Fianna Fáil may be campaigning on the issue as well.

In the same way that I don't believe in "cheap energy" for young people from nuclear power or fossil fuels, or in extra-large Big Macs for the masses -- I don't see why I should support this campaign either.

by Brian Cahill - Socialist Party Mon Feb 04, 2002 19:21 nigel_irritable at yahoo dot com

There is no contradiction between campaigning against the profiteering motor insurance cartel and wanting to see more cycle paths and better public transport. I take it that everyone here agrees that young drivers (amongst others) are screwed by the insurance companies?

by drunk cyclist Mon Feb 04, 2002 18:36

and send me money and I'll get you cheaper insurance so you can buy a car with higher engine capacity so you can drive it at 90mph into a brick wall, not just 75mph like in the old banger you have now.

>30 mins spent dropping the leaflet/Car Posters into local pubs

because pubs, drinking and cars go so well together.

why not spend the money on cycle lanes?

by path - cultural tong Mon Feb 04, 2002 16:56

Car Culture is clogging our cities - my city - and every day I cycle to work, I run the gauntlet of lunatic motorists who dont seem to grasp the simple fact that there are other people on the road apart from them.

MIJAG complain about the high costs of insurance for young drivers. Tough shit. Ireland has a high road death rate. How many more people must be killed on the roads? How cheap do you want the insurance when its CONSTANTLY young drivers involved in late night crashes, pile ups, accidents?

Cheaper insurance is NOT an answer. People must be encouraged to LEAVE THEIR CARS AT HOME as much as possible. Cycling to work is a healthier, greener alternative. MIJAG's "car rallies" (where all the motorists get together and roar their hothatches) are symbolic protests at their very worst, utterly meaningless and shallow.

Their campaign is already a failure when you look at the facts - 410 people killed last year (this is only deaths - no doubt many more injured). Until the license system is reformed in this country, then insurance costs should not come down.