€3345 raised for homeless in Limerick

by shane Fri Dec 13, 2002 16:16

Well done to all involved.

by iosaf Fri Dec 13, 2002 16:52

and wouldn´t it be nice if you followed up on the largesse and seasonal good will and activism with a clear and cohesive policy on homelessness?
houses without people
people without houses

by iosaf Fri Dec 13, 2002 17:00

i believe you are currently attacking "the sacred cow" of Irish politics, and are very excited about social change, and are producing a policy suggestion document.
but no mention of homelessness.
maybe "it´s better off inside"?
and you´re thinking about the langauge as well.
mól an bodach agus bain obair as.
i like that one.
praise the rich man and make him work.
did you know that richman and penis have the same etymological origin in Erse, Manx and Irish gaelic?
so I suppose you could say....
praise the prick and make him work.
not that I´d suggest you´re pricks or anything.
well done for that moeny for the V de P.
how much is your average deputy salary?
welcome to "the forum".

by Univeristy of Limerick - Young Fine Gael Fri Dec 13, 2002 18:47

Do those who have attacted our fundraising... What have you done about it? Action speaks louder than words boys. €3345 for a group of 18-22 years olds in one night is not bad going.

by Univeristy of Limerick - Young Fine Gael Fri Dec 13, 2002 18:47

Do those who have attacted our fundraising... What have you done about it? Action speaks louder than words boys. €3345 for a group of 18-22 years olds in one night is not bad going.

by Limerick Lady Fri Dec 13, 2002 19:41

In fairness now it was in Dublin that the pupils of Belvedere refused to sleep for the first time in years due to fears of safety so in this instance IMC Dalek is certainly out of touch and UL YFG should be complemented for not letting the mainstream media colour the reality.

As to the cynics, well in some parts of the country those who want to make a change have one choice and thats Fine Gael. I wouldn't expect you to know this as you have probably spent more time in Majorca then Mayo. So when people who have got involved at home with FG go to college they would naturally join YFG. After that they may come in contact with a whole other lot of diverse groups with a broader range of political views. In fairness the grassroots of a lot of these parties are quite principled people who can take each issue on a case by case basis. As to the economic philosophy of the party and their support of globalisation they may be no more guilty than any of the pinnicles of power of promoting the interests of big buisness above the people. Now as for YFG in Dublin thats a completely different story;-)

by Des Fri Dec 13, 2002 19:49

Well done everyone, your extremely moving concern for the homeless has left me deeply moved. Do you know that it will take only 100 years for you to buy 2 houses for the "homeless and deprived". Your touching concern for the homeless is rather sick given your support for the system that has created the problem in the first place. Keep on caring but you will now have to excuse me while I take time to puke.

by iosaf Fri Dec 13, 2002 20:13

I merely pointed out that your policy iniative being trumpteed on the website you provided a link to does not outline any potential policy on homelessness.
I also made reference to an irish seanfhocal and inquired how much does an average FG deputy earn.

now on the question of what is being done for the homeless....
between 1992 and 1995 I was involved in the campaign in Ireland to reform landlord tenant legal relationships. I succesfully faught an illegal eviction in South Circular Road Dublin.

between 1997 and 2000 I acted as interlocutor for several groups of homeless and disadvataged europeans in London, I was responsible for keeping over 400 people insquatted housing and off the streets, in the same period I tok part in a New Labour thinktank policy intiative for the London Borough of Lambeth.
In the period 1998-2000 I negotiated on behalf of squater communities "pacted" out of court settlements of private site evictions, this was part of a wide campaign in South London which ended in 2000 with 9000 homes being cleared bythe council.
Since 2000 I´ve sat on various assemblies of occupied buildiings and social centres in europe most noticeable Barcelona where I live. We provide through 24 social centres a variety of free services to squatters including libraries, circus art classes, language teaching and provide logistic support to many campaigns on a city, national and international basis.
So there you go, I can not say I´ve raised 3454€ for the homeless of Limerick by sleeping out for a night but I can say I´ve done a hell of a lot more than you for dealing with the root causes of homelessness in three countries.
I might also add that Irish people were part of the communities I served invluding one from Limerick. I will just to rub salt into the wound as "YFG enter this forum" that my Big Issue vender id. number was 14423.
I sold big issue "help the homeless" in London 1999.
Now the average workers wage in Ireland is estimated by the socialist party to be 20,000€ p.a. there are I can inform you 7 million squatters in Europe. The avaerage European income for a squatter/homeless person/ insecurely housed person is 6000€ p.a.
And I can inform you that the average income of a FG deputy is considerably higher.
Now youfine folk of FGY are presumably looking forward to careers in politics, so get used to criticism, and if you´re going to trumpet your bit for the homeless, then preoduce clear policies. Because the actions of FG have exacerbated the tradition of Irish homeless leaving Ireland and going to London.
well done for collecting the money, but don´t think you´ve done anything extra-ordianry special, and don´t say so, or I´ll get really mean on your middle class capitalist careerist little "Bodach" asses and point out that many of your Dail Deputies could write off the same figure in tax avoidance.
is that not true?
perhaps you would like a list?
in the mean time, you can either fuck off away from this "forum" or say / suggest something of real longterm value on the current Irish homelessness / property price / rent level crises.

have I made my disdain clear enough?

by iosaf Fri Dec 13, 2002 21:06

i´ve searched your website and not a mention of homelessness.
but this fine bit...
Mission
Young Fine Gael is the only vehicle for young people to seek political change in this country. As an autonomous youth organisation, it has the advantage of embodying the values of the senior Party, while maintaining the independence to express views, which are not always necessarily in harmony with those of Fine Gael. Young fine Gael provides a unique momentum in the Party by challenging and provoking its elected representatives and offering a fresh perspective.

well really.
i´ve also looked at your executive of young careerist hacks and well done a quick calculation, if you rounded up all the members of YFG listed on your website, 25€ each would top your collection.
perhaps you could suggest that as a weekly donation thing?
and which hostel in Limerick?
i´d love to talk to them about running costs and national policy issues, you know one homelessness activist to another sort of thing.

you are careerist hacks.
you´re not even worthy of the blueshirts your forebearers wore to fight Bob Doyle and his comrades in the Spanish war aginst fascism.

and what´s this about alco-pop?
come on and insults to intelligence?

do you little hacks have any idea the intelligence that is pooled in this "forum"?

i can´t put words to my disdain.
and what appals me is that you will still be about in twenty years.
"24 hours on the street", "actions speak louder than words boys".
fuck you!

do you really think that St. Vincent de Paul are the appropriate agency to tackle rough sleeping?

I remember the words of a Big Issue seller to HRH Charles of England in 1998 in the Big Issue office Pentonville Road London.
"you know we went to school together"ç
and they had.
Your approach to social problems is sad, outdated and does little to hide your inater snobbery and prejudice and self-interest.
Seasonal altruistic antics impress no-one.
But responding to these criticism just might impress the inteligence of an Irish cyber community of activists you have seen fit to enter.

in the meantime
have I made my disdain clear enough?

by Paul S Fri Dec 13, 2002 21:45

Why don't you tossers just swallow your self-righeous rethoric and applaud something that is worthwhile.

If charities for the homeless can applaud such a move, why can't you?

I suppose there would be no homeless people is your communist utopia, you shower of gimps, nor alcoholics, nor drug abuse, nor mental illness (all of which are often the root cause of homelessness).

(P.S these comments only apply to the begruggers, I hope others have the generosity to applaud any effort to help the homeless)

by three cheers for YFG Fri Dec 13, 2002 21:47

We should complement them on the efforts they made to redress all the damage FG has done in the past, both locally and nationally in causing homelessness, poverty etc.

Well done, onward to Government and we'll house the homeless. (Oops I forgot no-one is voting for them anymore)

by Des Fri Dec 13, 2002 21:59

Re the comment of “Limerick Lady”, your alternative to F.F. is the blueshirts, that’s a bit like been offered a choice between Blair and the Tories. The difference, absolutely none. Now that the young blueshirts have finished their ego trip for this year and retired to the stables to relieve the stress at having spent a night in the open, Perhaps we may now be spared any more of this nauseating hypocritical crap. My only criticism of the comments of Iosaf is that he/she was too polite. Perhaps when you all graduate, mom and dad may be able to persuade you to desist from engaging in such “radical” activity in future, don’t forget the market rules. If you don’t believe me ask Enda “nigger” Kenny.

by Phil Fri Dec 13, 2002 22:13

No wonder most view the far left with contempt if this is what you get for raising money for the homeless. You're self-righeous idiot Des, any normal person reading this thread would look at your venom with contempt

If your such a champion of the common man why the fuck don't normal people vote for your politics. Please don't claim to be the voice of the weak - you represent noone but yourself. Perhaps you should begin by persuasion rather than hurling bitter abuse, maybe then you'll have some success. Your hardly going the right way about spreading your message - abusing those who don't agree with you, upon hearing that they've raised money for the homeless.

I'm glad not everyone on Indy is quite so one-dimensionally pathetic.

by Shelta Fri Dec 13, 2002 22:18

Fine Gael uses charity to polish its image. But charity is no solution to homelessness or to any other social problem. Fine Gael, led by the racist Kenny, are part of the problem.

by Phil Fri Dec 13, 2002 22:18

Des, you idiot, you say

"Perhaps when you all graduate, mom and dad may be able to persuade you to desist from engaging in such “radical” activity in future"

You muppet, the far left is full of middle class university students, (and I'm not giving out about it). You really do have a chip on your shoulder.

Also, I'm not a member of YFG, but for fuck sake, I rarely see such abuse when the IRSP post. Get you priorities in order dickhead Des.

by Phil Fri Dec 13, 2002 22:24

Shelta says "Fine Gael uses charity to polish its image"

This is just complete bullshit, with no foundation. Most of the charity organisation in the county are run by and supported by those who also engage in mainstream politics.

I suppose the far left have a monopoly on charity as well as justice, morality, democracy....please stop me before I puke. Shelta you are a smug tosser, how did you suddenly arrive at the conclusion that only those with your political outlook a capable of charity? Did you do a survey? Or did you 1. just think it and 2. just say it. QED.

by Phil Fri Dec 13, 2002 22:32

You say "But charity is no solution to homelessness or to any other social problem"

Who said it was a solution, not YFG, but this fact doesn't mean that charity has no contribution to make.

I suppose in your mind anyone who contributes to charity is just feeding the corrupt capitalist regime etc etc etc rethoric...rethoric....

by Des Fri Dec 13, 2002 22:50

Tut, Tut, Tut, it is always a clear sign that the argument that been lost when someone has to resort to personal abuse instead of replying to the points I made. I am really distraught that a little reality has got you so upset. If you seriously believe that approx. three thousand euro can contribute to the massive housing and homelessness crisis in this country, then you should go and consult a shrink. That stunt was simply a little ego trip by people who support the system which created the problem in the first place. My “venom” or anger as I would prefer to describe it, is justified when I witness the sight of homeless people sleeping in shop doorways and in abandoned buildings. BTW what on earth have the IRSP got to do with it? I hope they are not thinking of engaging in a little ego tripping as well.

by Paddy O'Toole Fri Dec 13, 2002 23:26

God bless your honour Mr. Philip, speaking as a homeless person, I really appreciate the noble gesture of those caring young people. Don't take any notice whatsoever of those subversive left wing types. I know my place (in a shop doorway on Grafton St.) and I am humbly greatful for your genuine concern.
Thank you again sir,
Your humble servant
Paddy

ps please ask that fine gentleman, Mr. Kenny are there are any spare spaces in haybarns in Mayo?
I would also consider an apartment in D4

by Phil Sat Dec 14, 2002 02:33

Des please don't patronise me with your "Tut, Tut, Tut" and don't be surprised that your insults will be repaid with insults. You began the abuse; don't feign surprise when you are greeted with insults in return.

You claim you made a coherent argument, you did nothing of the sort. Don't try and assume the moral high ground, you began your first post with sneering sarcasm. This will inevitably provoke a response. You then go and tell me to consult a shrink, again, this is not sophisticate political debate. Don't be surprised if others treat you with the contempt with which you first treat them.

As for the notion that three thousand euro cannot contribute to the massive housing and homelessness crisis in this country. Of course such a donation cannot solve such a problem, no one claimed it could. It is nevertheless a worthy contribution to a worthy cause. If the donation was made by a group that you sympathise with it would never have attracted such unwarranted cynicism.

Again you resort to you smug self-righteousness, by claiming your political outlook is in some way more virtuous than others and you concern about the homeless is more genuine. Give me a break, you have no basis on which to make such a claim. All I have seen of your political activity to date is snide criticism of a group raising money for the homeless. I sure many on the far left would at least welcome such a move, notwithstanding their obvious political disagreement with YFG. Obviously you are happier just condemning those who don't agree with you politics, irrespective of what good they do.

As for your point about the IRSP, you say:

"BTW what on earth have the IRSP got to do with it? I hope they are not thinking of engaging in a little ego tripping as well"

Clearly you didn't understand what I meant, although it was quite clear. Find out who the IRSP are, read my post again and the meaning should be quite clear.

by Phuq Hedd Sat Dec 14, 2002 09:03

"As for the notion that three thousand euro cannot contribute to the massive housing and homelessness crisis in this country. Of course such a donation cannot solve such a problem, no one claimed it could."

So, what's the point in doing it then? To look worthy? To salve one's conscience for belong to a party that advocates Capitalism which is the root cause of homelessness? Isn't it the sort of hypocritical whited sepulchre gesture that has contaminated Irish civil life for centuries.

"It is nevertheless a worthy contribution to a worthy cause."

Oh, I see. It allows the donors to claim a worthy gesture in public. The basileus throws out a couple of handfuls of meat and his people rejoice.

" If the donation was made by a group that you sympathise with it would never have attracted such unwarranted cynicism."

I think that's exactly the point. If the Young Capitalist Fucks dispense 2 silver pennies and one bad copper one and make a big noise about it the action carries less conviction and sincerity than when the Young Ranting Anti-Capitalists give half a mouldy bean. One group is engaged in an obvious lie and the other isn't. Neither of their minimalistic contributions have a hope of fixing the problem. The YRAC admit it and argue the problem should be fixed, the YCF don't admit it.

Really Phil, the time you spend on obscure rants about the IRSP would be better spent on renting some honesty.

by Paddy O'Toole Sat Dec 14, 2002 11:47

I would like to congratulate your honour on your replies to those left wing subversive types. Unlike me, they don't know their place. Your social conscience is a source of inspiration to all us homeless types, I fully accept that in these hard times we all have to make do and that aspiring to a roof over my head is unreasonable. The Government has of course more urgent tasks to attend to, such as the "bertie bowl" and of course easing the stress on deprived builders. There is just one question I would respectfully like to ask your honour, since the price of a house in Dublin is over 200,000 euro and being one of the lower orders, could you please tell me how long it will take to buy me a house? after using all my fingers many times, my humble conclusion is that it would take around 60 years for those fine caring young people to buy me a house from their collections. I hope, your honour will forgive me for asking. Again, god bless your honour for your concern (and those fine young people as well), surely you will get your reward in the next world.

Your humble servant
Paddy

ps I will remember you in my prayers and if you are ever passing by Grafton St. don't forget to say hello, you of course don't know me but I will be the scruffy person respectfully grovelling in your presence. Thank you again sir, I will never forget you.

by Phil Sat Dec 14, 2002 13:39

As I've said, if you start hurling abuse, you have no complaints if you get it back in return.

You say:
"It allows the donors to claim a worthy gesture in public."

The far left also make claims that their activity is worthy, and boast of their successes.

You say that YFG are engaged in an obvious lie.

Again if its all so fucking obvious why hasn't your anarchist revolution happened already, or at least got more than a couple of dozen followers. Is everyone else so deluded and you so enlightened? Please forgive me, I forgot you have a uniquely noble insight into to political organisation of society, It’s just such a pity most people don’t give a shit. And yes, I’m the type of tosser you’re up against, and yes, there are far more of me than there are of you.

If you want to have any success (and I hope to fuck you don't get it) maybe you are you cohorts should adopt a less arrogant self-righteous tone. Maybe then you'll be able to claim more than a bit of graffiti on a monument in Shannon as the pinnacle of your political success (I’m sure the homeless were falling over themselves with gratitude) ?

The consolation for me meanwhile is that you’ll live your delude political existence without a hope in hell of ever seeing you anarchist utopia, why, because most normal people can see straight through the blinkered rhetoric and arrogant preaching.

You may now feel free to slag me off and throw more rhetoric in my direction. I take it as a compliment dickheads.

by Univeristy of Limerick - Young Fine Gael Sat Dec 14, 2002 14:10

We raised €3345. Our apologies for that. We will promise that our members, aged between 18-22 will never do something like that again. Once again, we apologise to the readership of this forum for doing something so bad. We apologise for sleeping on the streets of Limerick for charity in the run up to exams, in the run up to Christmas. We apologise for giving up our time to raise money. We apologise for trying.

by Paddy O'Toole Sat Dec 14, 2002 14:15

Your honour, may I assure you that I fully agree with your last comment(s), these subversive types have absolutely no respect for a person in your position. As I have said before, I very much appreciate your social conscience. I am also aware that by the all your collections make up the current price of a house (assuming Mr. McCreevy battle against inflation is successful) I will be dead, not withstanding that Sir, I still very much appreciate your efforts. You are truly an example to all us lower level types. May I assure you Sir, that I will never be influenced by those left wing subversive types. In conclusion Sir, may I respectfully wish you a very happy christmas and hope that the price of Eircom shares may rise in 2003.

Your humble servant
Paddy

God bless you Sir, you are an example to all us lower level types.

by iosaf (watches the Limerick kite being flown elsewhere) Sat Dec 14, 2002 15:47

I´m going to do my "D. Gageby bit" and provide you with a link to the updated debate on homelessness in Ireland , the politicisation of good deeds, and the worrying manipulation of our youth by abuse of their tender altruism and ambition.

oh and the questions, because all these good comments above now get forgotten as the debate is "moved" forward, [don´t you hate it how they try and "move" the debate forward?].

Oh Mr. Gageby.
what will we do with them?

oh yes the questions.

1. why no YFG policy or word on homelessness?
2. which hostel?
3. why the St. V. de P.?

they´ll do for the moment won´t they Mr Gageby?
yes, I rather think he´d agree with me.
http://ireland.indymedia.org/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi?id=21662

by Univeristy of Limerick - Young Fine Gael Sat Dec 14, 2002 16:08

Policy on Homelessness:

We agree with homelessness, we agree that people should sleep rough.... is this how ridulous this forum is getting now! Our policy on homelessness... I'm 19, I wanted to raise money for the guys who sleep rough in Limerick, We could spend time on policies, we could raise money. We raise money. Policies, you them us and we will put it together and put it forceably to our senior party. Thanks.

Why St. Vincent De Paul? Emm, think about it.

by limerick1919 Sat Dec 14, 2002 17:09 limerick1919 at hotmail dot com

check the story below young fine gaelers and get out to dooradoyle and protest against this - an effort to stave off homelessness but not on my doorstep. O' malley should be ashamed of himself

snip of story
>>>>1000 sign against boy plan
By ALAN JACQUES

RESIDENTS in Dooradoyle have united to try and block a Galway based charity opening a residential care unit for young boys living at risk.>>>>>>

Where is Michael noonan when you need him

by FG hater Sat Dec 14, 2002 20:01

Fine Gael is responsible for homelessness. They are a capitalist party, they support the privateering that is the 'house market'. They are the ones that have not built local authority homes, they are the ones that will not take on the specualtors. They are corrupt and they take money from corrupt speculators.

FF-FG-Lab-PD you and your capitalist friends are guilty for homelessness

by iosaf Sat Dec 14, 2002 22:25

yes i am thinking about it and have thought about it for a very long time.
I and my colleauges in the european occupation movement thank you for your interest in homelessness which has led to a situation of 7million people in europe living in squats.
We welcome your wish to widen your main party´s policies and shall send you some policy suggestions accordingly.
Well done you´re only a ógra but still, good deeds done under such names will always get flack.

The kittys will get their little claws out you know.
Being 19 is great.
I was 19 once.
I used to annoy the shit of my dead contemporary Jonathan Philbin Bowman in regular phone-ins tohis radio show with sugestions on homelessness.

the "buzz words" then were reform, threshhold (a nun and her mates) and the first Big Issue project in Dublin.

you were only a baby.
being a baby is great.

by Des Sun Dec 15, 2002 19:21

I have seen your “replies” to my comments on the cynical stunt by the young blueshirts re the homelessness crisis in this country. Name calling is not exactly an adequate response to the legitimate points I made. As Phug Hedd as already pointed out in response to the young blueshirts whinging, I suggest you consult the IMC guidelines. Given the political position of the persons who engaged in said stunt, (their party has been in power on a number of occasions and what have they do to address the problem, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING) all the persons who made negative comments on the “sleepout” have a legitimate right to point the cynical nature of such a stunt given the record of the political party that the “sleepout” participants are supporters of.
There is a world of difference between the excellent work on the issue carried out by a sincere person such as Peter McVerry and the cynicism of people who support the system that created the homelessness crisis in the first place. Incidentally, you have continually referred to my “politics”, “far left” etc. etc., I am not a member of any political party and I was/am not seeking to “represent” anyone, I was expressing my anger and disgust at such a cynical and hypocritical stunt. You may notice that I did not have to descend to the level of personal abuse to make my position clear. On a daily basis, I pass an elderly man who sleeps in a shop doorway with his two dogs, I always stop and have a conversation with him and being a humane person, give him some cash for a meal and some dog food for the animals. I would have more respect for those animals for whom that homeless man displays great affection, than I would ever have for the type of right wing, self centered individual that you are. What would you do in a similar situation, piss on him perhaps? Or maybe give him the email of YFG.

by King Mob Sun Dec 15, 2002 22:39

Fair play Young Fine Gael for raising €3345 for the homeless. Its great to see something different than the usual failed stalinist/marxist-leninist/trotskyite/anarcho-communist shite that usually spams and clogs up the Indymedia Ireland website. You see most of the dumb pricks who write on this site and this also applies to the IMC cabal who run this site as well are under the mistaken impression that this is a left wing site. Its not. Read the notice at the bottom of this page. It says quite clearly that "Indymedia is a collective of independent media organizations and hundreds of journalists offering grassroots, non-corporate coverage. Indymedia is a democratic media outlet for the creation of radical, accurate, and passionate tellings of truth." It doesn't say Indymedia is a left wing site. Got that. I don't know how many times I've had to remind the dumb thicks here that. I look forward to many more contributions from Young Fine Gael, and Ogra Fianna Fail and the Young Progressive Democrats as well. One final thing. Young Fine Gael also know how to put the Euro (€) symbol on their Email unlike the dumb left wing stupos on this newswire. The Euro is now our currency and is going to remain our currency forever, not matter how much the failed left wingers has-beens wish that they still had their punt.

by Intransigent - makes his return Mon Dec 16, 2002 00:29

Hey King Mob must be great to finally have some real friends on this site that you can battle the evil forces of Marx, Lenin, Trotsky, Proudhon and co.
YFG great that you raised some money. Now it's time to progress and look at the root causes of the problem. No I'm not talking about alcholism, drug abuse etc. Yes that's right the system that breeds inequalities and promotes the activities which lead to people finding themselves in a situation in which they have nowhere to live. If you do not go beyond this starting point of raising the money, a step in the right direction, then this whole event was just a publicity stunt.
So YFG it's time to start applying pressure to senior FG and letting them know how the next generation of Fine Gaelers feel about the problem of homelessness. So it's time to push forward your policies in relation to the eradciation of homelessness. Or was that the eradication of the poor because they have no homes and are just causing the state an expense plus they clutter grafton st right?
Anyway at least King Mob loves you guys. And you are not the only people who are argued with on this forum. The SP/SWP/SF/Anarchist groups all have arguments with one another about how best to proceed. Though I must confess they are all mostly about ways in which the capitalist system will be removed/destroyed/smashed. I've often come up against the question "Show me one country where Socialism actually works?" Well YFG, show me one country where Capitalism actually works? Or are the blatant inequalities caused by this system all part of the objectives?

by King Mob Tue Dec 17, 2002 02:22

Seems someone on the left has abandoned their ideals again.

Lets see I piss them off, so they pretend to be me and post pro right wing rants on the site, seeking to discredit me.

Isn't it fascinating that someone on the high minded and noble left is willing to sacrifice their ideals because someone on a website is pissing them off.

I wonder how easily and quickly these lefts will abandon these lofty concepts as "honest" "freedom" and "justice" when they have authority and someone is pissing them off.

by Des Wed Dec 18, 2002 22:29

You looked really great in the local press, so did Mary, really touching, are there any homeless in Newtown, Castletroy. Would they be welcome anyway, they could reduce property values. Stay in the stables and spare us the hypocritical crap.

by . Mon Dec 23, 2002 16:55

http://www.ireland.indymedia.org/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi?id=21662