whats the difference between SWP/WSM and SP

by Craph Wed Dec 11, 2002 19:45

Why don't you go and ask someone then? What would you done before this site existed?

In case you hadn't noticed, this is a newswire, not an oracle. Get up off your ass and talk to some real people, then you might find the answers that you're looking for.

Or are you just trying to start an argument?

by Leftie Wed Dec 11, 2002 19:50

While I am not a member of any of these groups, a brief summary might be as follows:

SWP -Political party, run candidates in elections. Have a hierarchical authortarian structure
with power based at the top level in the committee/executive. See www.swp.ie

SP -Is similiar from what I can see, but seems to be a lot more democratic. It doesn't
seem to get a fraction of the critizism the SWP gets. Unfortunately I dont know much
more: Website ???

WSM -They are NOT a party, but an Anarchist movement. They do NOT take part in elections,
as they do not believe in hierarchical authortarian power structures, which the State is. They say
parlimentary democracy is a facade (which I tend to agree) and instead propose a society
based on grassroots or direct democracy. They are the most democractic in their goals
and in practice. Spainish revolution in the 30's was the closest we came to an Anarchist
society before it was destroyed by both Stalinist government at the time and General Franco.

Website http://struggle.ws/wsm.html

I would recommend visting each of the websites and reading some of their literature and
position papers, and then compare each.

by Iron Heel Wed Dec 11, 2002 20:00

Sp- parliamentary party Centrist Orthodox trot
SWP- Post Trotskyist Cliffite "State Capitalists"
WSM- Platform Communists

by John Wed Dec 11, 2002 20:29

The site of the SP is at http://www.socialistparty.net

by Queen Mob Wed Dec 11, 2002 20:30

Yawn yawn yawn yawn Zzzz

by Spaceshipman Wed Dec 11, 2002 21:03

Looking for information on this site about any of the parties/groups that you mentioned is very dangerous on a site such as this one, which has fallen into petty bickering between all left wing groups. The objective: We're better than you. Well I'm not sure? Basically talk to people. Real people and NEVER ask for advice from this site. That is the greatest mistake anyone could make. Look how you've made King or Queen Mob very bored. Just another example of the prats on this site.

by OK - SP Thu Dec 12, 2002 01:07

I think it's unfortunate that there was a bad feeling to the different groups, probably due to the antics of some in the past.

Socialist Party is by far the largest group on the revolutionary left in terms of influence and support of workers. This can be seen in the results of the last elections where our top 2 candidates received more votes than SWP/WP etc combined.

But we are not a party based on elections, as some previous postings say. We fight in the communities on local issues, such as refuse charges etc. We played the leading role in the successful campaign against the Water Charges in the 1990s. We're also active in the Trade Unions, most notably the CPSU, AerLingus, NIPSA (in NI)...

SP are a part of a vibrant international organisation, the CWI. The CWI is active in 35 countries, on all 5 continents. Unlike SWP and WSM we have very strong international links with socialists around the world. Go to http://www.worldsocialist-cwi.org for more info.

Our position on the North is different to that of the SWP. We say that workers should unite and fight for their interests regardless of their religion. SWP are more left-republican, and dont try to seriously appeal to protestent workers. The other main difference we have with the SWP is on the nature of the USSR and the stalinist regimes. They say they were capitalist states, we say that they were planned economies that were deformed due to the lack of democracy.

The main differences people will notice between SP and SWP is our methods. Previous posters have already touched off the question of democracy in the SWP. There is a pamphlet produced about our differences with the SWP on the SYUCD website under the articles section.

If you want to find out more go to our websites. www.socialistparty.net www.worldsocialist-cwi.org www.socialistyouth.cjb.net www.syucd.cjb.net

by non-sectarian - choose one in your nasty replies Thu Dec 12, 2002 02:47

Is it true that SWP members in the North supported and fought for, leaflettted and argued for an SP member in recent NIPSA elections. If so what does it say about the shitty unfraternal, sectarian (but oh so usual) crap above.

by Bob's Your Uncle Thu Dec 12, 2002 05:45

Is it true? I certainly hope so.

Is it also true that the SWP have played no role whatsoever in the building of a strong left in NIPSA? And that up until this point their main activity in the union has been to sit on the sidelines and criticise? Could that be described as unfraternal, sectarian but oh so usual?

by / Thu Dec 12, 2002 10:50

and the SP arguing against NIPSA members going on an anti-sectarian march was?

by kitty-kat Thu Dec 12, 2002 11:42

if you were trying to start an arguement it certainly worked! not that it's much of a challenge. aren't Self righteous people boring? and so easy to wind up. if you continue to use this site, you better get used to it, there are soooo many axes, all getting a good grinding daily.

But you've got to start somewhere and actually here is as good a place as any - you get a feel for the volume of bullshit that's knocking around early on. I'm relatively new to activism too, but unfortunately spent months just around anarchists, all they ever do is respect each other's opinions and share information and knowledge with people, invite people to act, without obligating anyone, most of them are not one bit patronising, self righteous, aggressive or dishonest, which i'm sure you'll agree is a real piss off! what a wake up call i got when i encountered peeps from the wider spectrum of "The Left". Good Luck

by Len Thu Dec 12, 2002 11:56

www.workers-party.org

by Andrew K - SWP & NIPSA Thu Dec 12, 2002 12:06

We both have supported the SP candidate in the NIPSA elections and are very active within our unions particularly NIPSA.

by Andrew Thu Dec 12, 2002 12:27

The info above is mostly accurate, the biais where it exists is clear. One minor correction, the WSM is now affiliated to 'International Libertarian Solidarity' which is a network of anarchist organisations and unions, more on this at
http://www.ils-sil.org/

For some discussion of the differences on the left from an anarchist perspective see the web page http://anarchism.ws/left.html It includes some material specific to Ireland.

In terms of the historical divide between anarchism (eg WSM) and Leninism (eg SWP and SP) you might find the thread at http://flag.blackened.net/wwwthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=revoltnew&Number=11432&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=
useful, it includes contributions from members of most of the groups already mentioned and a few others beside

by Eamonn C Thu Dec 12, 2002 12:28

The anti-sectarian march referred to in your comment was organised by sectarian politicians. Arguments were put forward by a number of trade union activists in various unions and at the Northern Ireland Committee of ICTU that the unions should refuse to back and support this march but instead organise their own independent demonstration against sectarianism.
Those of us who put forward these arguments were of course proved right by events. The demo in question only attracted at the most 5,000 people, this was because the majority of workers couldn't take the idea of Sinn Fein and the UUP organising a protest against sectarianism seriously. How can those who play a fundamental role in propagating sectarianism lead a fight against it?
The counter argument - that the unions should organise a consistent campaign against sectarianism but independently of the right wing establishment parties such as the UUP/SF/SDLP etc and also independent of the CBI, churches and so on, is based on the fact that the unions are the only mass non-sectarian organisations in the North to which catholic and protestant workers belong. When the unions did organise such a protest on 18 January 100,000 people responded to the call - not the miserly figure of 5,000 attracted by Alex Maskey and his UUP cohorts.

by Spotter Thu Dec 12, 2002 12:33

OK from the Socialist Party said that "Unlike SWP and WSM we have very strong international links with socialists around the world".

Actually the SWP are part of the International Socialist Tendency which includes fellow thinkers in a couple of dozen countries. It may not have a formal structure and the London SWP leadership may make the decisions - but it is an international organisation of some sort.

The WSM are the Irish affiliate of International Libertarian Solidarity (they had an article about it in their paper earlier this year). This seems to be a network of radical trade unions and what they call "platformist" anarchist movements around the world.

by Spotty Thu Dec 12, 2002 13:35

SP claim to be the "biggest" left group. This will come as a surprise to anyone who knows anything about the Irish Left. Love 'em or hate 'em, to even the most casual observer the SWP has far more members constantly egging more people onto demos, strikes, protests, rank and file stuff.

The SP qualify "biggest" to mean "most working class support" by which they mean votes.
At the end of the day their key measuring stick is the number of votes for Joe and Clair. The job of the working class is to put a number one on the ballot for their luminaries. This is why they leave anti-war stuff to the Yoof and the grown ups do the serious business of electioneering.

by iosaf (oracle duty jedi) Thu Dec 12, 2002 14:17 maestro_jedi_jordi_pujol at hotmail dot com barcelona

after you´ve absorbed all the above data, you may consider these essential differences.

The fourth international of bolshevik communist revolutionary socialists
1. use megaphones
2. gig for printer funds. (which they then share with everyone else if they ask nicely).

The fifth international of loved up crusty-hippi-freaki-anarko-muppets.
1. use the Play ethic.
2. gig for fun.

The international Green conspiracy
1. use potted plants
2. print on recycled paper

The transnational ATTAC movement
1. wear better clothes than anyone else
2. read economic magazines

The international peacenik spineless wonders
1. pray a lot
2. have God on their side

The black block masked up "we´re all zaptistas"
1. want to by 5th internationalists but are still too young.
2. are paid agent provacateurs in the employ of Washington.

The Socialist Workers Movement
1. have Eamonn Mc Cann (great book collection)
2. have Nell Mc Cafferty (great sense of humour)
3. No this doe´sn´t really make up for anything.

The Socialist Party
1. have Finghin.
2. have Finghin.
3. are affiliated to revolutionary socialists in umpteen countries just like Finghin.

The Irish Republican movement
1. have oddles of cash
2. don´t have a chip on their shoulder.

The Irish Socialist Republican movement
1. don´t have oddles of cash
2. have a bit of a chip on their shoulder

Mr Lowry
1. is only part of a technical grouping and isn´t really part of the left.
2. is part of the left in which he´s part of a technical grouping.

The Workers Party
1. have made excellent technological progress with their flash animation website.
2. with their flash animation website have made excellent technological progress.

Iosaf = o as if
1. will win a Nobel prize.
2. lives in Barcelona 5th international world HQ and really isn´t part of the Left at all.

WSM
1. are really great you know.
2. boast Andrew and Aileen (who used to hold hands).

Castleminders
1. are counting the days
2. have a very messy yard but it´s under surveillance.

Shannon Neutrality bunch.
1. have Mr Dubski and his court case and need lots of money and support
2. have the support of the european neutrality movement.

Gluaiseacht
1. are techno-tweedy gaeilgoirs.
2. don´t all have gluistains! they "car pool"

The Blue Block
1. secretly make donations to our funds
2. log on every day and love us. (secretly)

and that´s all you really need to know.
it doesn´t matter which bit of the tribe you decide to connect with.
The Evolving Revolution is safe.
Heart and Mind.

by Ronan from CYM - Connolly Youth Movement Thu Dec 12, 2002 15:33 connollyyouth at hotmail dot com James Connolly House, 43 East Essex Street, Temple Bar, Dublin 2. -

The Connolly Youth Movement is an all-Ireland socialist youth organisation affilated to the Communist Party of Ireland. The Organisation is based on the ideas of Marx, Engels, Lenin amd Connolly and is aimed at uniting young people in the struggle for socialism.
Drop in to our shop, Connolly Books on East Essex Street in Temple Bar if you want to have a chat with us or If you wish to read more check out our web-page www.communistpartyofireland.ie/cym
or e-mail us at [email protected]
or write to
Connolly Youth Movement,
James Connolly House,
43, East Essex Street,
Temple Bar,
Dublin 2

by Brian Cahill Thu Dec 12, 2002 16:37

Ronan, how are the series of CP/CYM public meetings going? (Coffee and Politics is a really bad name, by the way). I was going to go along to the most recent one but I couldn't make it. Are you getting much interest?

by OK - SP Thu Dec 12, 2002 16:51

I stick by my claim that SP are the biggest party on the Irish left in terms of influence and support among working people. Anyone that knows us knows that elections are not our main area of work. Our branches are active on day-to-day campaigns of ordinary workers. We are involved in the Bin Charges campaign, we're involved in community groups etc. SP have support in Trade Unions (eg CPSU, NIPSA, FBU, Aer Lingus etc). When elections come around we get good votes because of the work we've done, we dont do work just to get votes.

Spotty, are you telling me that anyother group on the Irish left are as big as us in terms of support from workers? I accept that the SWP get loads of people to demos etc (so do we by the way), but do they have a base in the working class?

by George Fri Dec 13, 2002 10:21

and i can piss further (that even goes for the women!)

by Durutti Column Fri Dec 13, 2002 14:06

Your demands as stated below dont exactly add up to a revolutionary program. There is no mention of them being part of a program of Transitional Demands.

You say on Indymedia that you are a revolutionary organisation. Surely that means you stand for the destruction of Capitalism and the overthrow of the State by the use of Mass Action AND Armed means.

So what is the real story?

Do you stand for the smashing of the State or are you just in the business of reforming it , in the best way possible? ( This comment is not meant as an insult.)

Please also note the questions and comments regarding what you stand for.

WORKERS RIGHTS
A guaranteed right to a job or training with decent wages and full workers' rights

€8 per hour minimum wage tax free now, as a first step towards the €10 per hour EU decency threshold

TRADE UNIONS
Democratic Trade Unions to fight in the interests of their members on pay and conditions 32 hour working week without loss of pay

Full pension, sick pay and holiday rights for all workers, whether full time, part time or on contracts

A major campaign to unionise all workers and to make it illegal to sack workers for engaging in union activity

TAXATION AND SOCIAL WELFARE
Increase the tax eligibility level to €15,000 per year for a single worker
* Hardly even a reformist demand!

No worker to pay PAYE above a 25% rate
* What cut-off sdalay point do you propose for defining a worker?

No more tax amnesties for the rich — make them pay their full share

No to local charges — no double taxation in any form

A minimum basic social welfare payment of €190 per week for the unemployed, pensioners, widows and those on sickness and disability benefit
* Even CORI look for more than this!

HEALTH
A properly funded public health care system to put an end to waiting lists

No to a two tier health service

Free and comprehensive health care, with clinics in all areas to provide primary medical services

Change the law and court procedures to protect the victims of violence

WOMEN'S RIGHTS
The provision of refuges, financial support and counselling services to help those suffering from domestic violence

An end to all forms of chauvinism and sexual stereotyping in the media, advertising and in schools
* NO mention of Abortion rights.

STUDENTS
Democratic Students' Unions to fight in the interests of their members

Increase student grants to at least the same level as social welfare

Full grants for all third level education, including Post Leaving Cert and Further Education courses

Abolish fees for evening students and postgraduate students

Proper student facilities. An end to shortages of books, library spaces, canteen spaces, computers, photocopiers, etc

Students' Unions for secondary schools
* What about teachers? Should Students' Unions be able to sack incompetent Teachers?

DRUGS AND COMMUNITIES
The Socialist Party is opposed to all criminal and anti-social behaviour, and supports democratic community action to tackle these problems
* Do you support the right of communities to physically defend themselves against Lumpen elements?

Cut across drug related crime and the power base of organised crime by providing treatment, maintenance and counselling facilities for all heroin addicts, including support services for their families
* Would you support the decrimalisation of possession of all drugs for adults?

Treatment centres to be established with the agreement of the local community, treating addicts from the local area, with a proper monitoring system for the local community

* Does this mean that some areas could refuse to have centres?

Community control of the Gardaí to ensure they work with and implement the policing priorities advocated by the communities
* How can a revolutionary party have such illusions in the Police?

ECONOMY
Take economic power out of the hands of the bankers, speculators and wealthy industrialists and transfer it to those who do the work and create the wealth: working class people

Public ownership and democratic socialist planning of the key areas of economic activity

NORTHERN IRELAND
The Socialist Party advocates a socialist Ireland, and a socialist federation of Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales, on a free and equal basis, as part of a socialist federation of Europe
*What about a 32 County Socialist Republic?

Working for an agreed settlement on the national question, including tackling issues such as unemployment, poverty and social deprivation throughout Ireland

The building of a mass workers' party to unite Protestant and Catholic working class people to fight for a socialist solution

by Angrier Activist Fri Dec 13, 2002 17:26

The SP wont answer questions about the difference between the 'Democratic Socialist' SP and the Trotskyist CWI which believes in the installation of a "Dictatorship of the Proletaraiat'. That wouldnt go down well with the voters in Dublin West.

by member of SP Fri Dec 13, 2002 21:41

In answer to those who claim that the SP are reformist please read on. Then again chances are some people will never be happy.

On Thursday December 12th 2002, the National Forum on Europe held a plenary session in Dublin Castle. The topic of the session was “Economic Governance and the Social Dimension”. The Keynote speaker was Professor Philip Lane of the Institute for International Integration Studies at TCD and the Centre for Economic Policy Research.

During the discussion the following contribution was made by Dominic Haugh, alternate member of the Forum, representing the Socialist Party.

“The Speaker from IBEC states that they are opposed to increased taxation for reasons of competitiveness, but the reality is that business just do not want to pay anymore taxes. Professor Lane states that EU economic and social policy can be separated but the reality is that they cannot. All economic decisions have an effect on the implementation of social policy. The argument that economic policy can be based on some form of technocratic management do not just stand up to the evidence. The reality is that all the economic decisions of the EU are taken on the basis of what is in the interests of the business sector and in particular global capitalism. Despite what Professor Lane says, the recent boom in the world economy has primarily arisen due to the enormous transfer of wealth from the “third world” to Western Europe and particularly to the USA.

After 10 years of the Celtic Tiger, the Government, IBEC etc, want a pay freeze. For 14 years workers wages were capped as a result of various so-called partnership agreements. There was no such cap on the levels of profits and now IBEC want workers to accept a pay freeze so the profits can continue to rise. The EU clearly want to limit spending on public services. As we have heard here this morning, the only area of spending to be exempt from restrictions is military spending. So we can but all the weapons and missiles we want but we can’t spend money on health to prevent incidents like the tragic events in Monaghan yesterday. Over the last 10 years there has been a huge transfer of the wealth in this country from the poorest 90% to the richest 10%. This has been mirrored around Europe. Workers will no longer be willing to take it lying down. Just look at the events in Portugal this week, the firefighters in Britain, and workers in Italy, Germany, France and Greece over the past few months.

I know the members of the forum will not agree with me when I say that, economic stability is impossible under capitalism. The inevitability of the free market is boom and slump, not stability, I see Professor Lane shaking his head. Many social, charitable and religious groups, some who are members of the observer pillar here today, regularly put forward proposals to reform society to ensure that everyone has a house, a job, a decent health and education system. I know the members of the Forum opposite me today will not agree with me when I say, that while these reforms are progressive they cannot be guaranteed under the system of free market capitalism. The only way they can be secured is through the replacement of this rotten system by a democratic economic and social plan to provide for the needs of all not just for the profit of a few.”

This contribution was further expanded on during a meeting between the Joint Oireachtas Committee on European Affairs and the Forum for Europe that afternoon.

I will let the reader decide if the Socialist Party is reformist or not and if they hide their policies from anyone.

by KO Fri Dec 13, 2002 23:41

SP came out with this shite: "accept that the SWP get loads of people to demos etc (so do we by the way), but do they have a base in the working class?"

None of ye nuts have a base in the working class

by Observer Sat Dec 14, 2002 20:08

KO says that SP and SWP dont have a base in working class, I would agree that SWP dont have any base among workers. However it would be idiotic to say that SP dont have a base of support among workers. Just look at the election results! and the Water charges and bin charges campaigns.

by Brian Cahill Tue Dec 17, 2002 07:24

I'm really not interested in getting bogged down in the petty sniping between various anonynous wankers, but one point made above caught my attention:

Neither the CWI nor the Socialist Party calls for a "dictatorship of the proletariat" or any other such kitsch nonsense.

When people like Marx used the term, they meant it to mean the democratic rule of the working class. We too are in favour of the democratic rule of the working class, but 150 years later the word "dictatorship" has very different connotations, while to sling around words like "proletarian" would just be pointlessly archaic.

So we don't call for a "dictarship of the proletariat". And we don't call the ruling class the "bourgeoisie" and we don't call small farmers "peasants". 21st Century Ireland has perfectly adequate terms for all of those concepts without forcing us to rummage around in a kind of linguistic dress-up box from 19th Century Petrograd.

by Tamerlane Tue Dec 17, 2002 12:35

Lord Haugh Haugh.

Mr Cahill gives the game away. The Socialist Party wont mention revolution in a ny context or using any sort of linguistic twist. In truth, they are the epitomy of reformists.