Anti-War Protesters March Through The Rain.

by Daithi Sat Dec 07, 2002 22:05

Brian - do you know what happened re: Grafton St? RTE website says that the march wasn't allowed up - was there much dispute over that or did it take a different planned route?

by Brian Cahill Sat Dec 07, 2002 22:12

The march stopped for a few minutes at the top of Grafton Street after the Gardaí blocked the route.

Part of the march clustered at the blockage, with an SWPer on a megaphone leading a chant of "Whose Streets? Our Streets!".

Then the march moved on.

by l1919 Sat Dec 07, 2002 22:46

is cold but no rain looks like it will stay that way

by Chairperson Mao Sat Dec 07, 2002 22:48

So, how did the Gardai explain the "danger" of Grafton St.? It's a pedestrian street and would have been well-suited to a march.

See yis all at Shannon.

by Stephen Sat Dec 07, 2002 22:52

Supposedly the large numbers of people that would be on Grafton St as the march moved down it would be too dangerous. But the question is, if it was a march of shoppers on their way to Brown Thomas would the Gardai still deem it dangerous?

by Random Joe Biscuit Sun Dec 08, 2002 01:29

The protest march wasn't allowed up grafton st. This resulted in a number of protestors sneaking around onto grafton st where placards had been waiting for them stashed. A very professional job. When the march came up to the bottom of grafton st the surprise protestors came down behind 'enemy lines' and made their voices heard. At this point there were about 1000 protestors facing the gardai and another 50 behind them on grafton st. At this point the gardai remembered rts baton charging by them. Was it time for revenge. It certainly was an opportune moment and it was great to see them shitting themselves, looking very worried. There was no way they were gonna be able to do anything in that situation so they had to let the protestors on graton st to march up which they did for a section of graton st and then refoined the protest. Gardai were real scared looking anyway and will be more hesitant in future from stopping our marches up graton st I'd like to think. After all they wouldn't like to see things get nasty would they cause if they do get surrounded like that again they'll know who is gonna suffer more. Not a threat blue bloc just take it as a bit of helpful advice ;)

by Stephen Rigney Sun Dec 08, 2002 01:58

Are you protesting against war, or are you playing games with the Gardai? It is hard to tell sometimes.

by puzzeled protester Sun Dec 08, 2002 02:32

why did the SWP continue to insist that march goes down Grafton St? I find it hard to go down Grafton Street in December on my own, how hard would over 1000 protesters find it! what about the thousands of shoppers? In case you've not noticed Saturdays in December tend to be very bust on Grafton St!

The march wasnt allowed down, get over it! The main thing the SWP wanted was a publicity stunt and some violence.

by hater of capitalism Sun Dec 08, 2002 03:08

It's a discrace that a Labour Party MP was invited to speak at the demo. Labour are in power in Britain and are planning the war alongside Bush. Labour are a capitalist party and are very much linked in with the arms trade and war. Have no illusions in the Labour Party of Blair, Rabbitte, etc. They are not the Labour of the past. The "Labour Left" are nothing more thatn careerists, they only oppose the war because it's in their own individual interests.

How can the IAWM invite a Labour Party MP to speak and not representatives from other political parties? Why were speakers from main parties opposing war (Greens, SP, etc) not included?

by Paul O'Donnell Sun Dec 08, 2002 11:01

Grafton Street's a wonderland
there's magic in the air
there's batons in the garda's hand
and handcuffs on his rear
And if you don't believe me
Come and meet me there
when we reclaim the streets tomorrow morning!

by iosaf Sun Dec 08, 2002 16:06

Towards the end of the twentieth century people with something to say and no media to say it in gathered in big cities all over Western Civilisation and had noisy parties and "celebrations" of their fundamental rights to "say what they thought was wrong" and reclaim a little bit of thoroughfare to say it in.
Now right from the beginning of that local and often not too local police forces were deployed to play game with the protesters.
I think this is what we call "blue block" participation. They aren´t invited, but they turn up anyway, and always have to leave thinking they earned their pay for the day.
Sometimes they misbehave, then we gather up the gigabytes of evidence against them and give them a jolly interesting few years of sinister shodwey cabal of interests stuff.
Now many of these blue blockers are against the WAR as well. But they´ve got jobs and mortgages and state employers who need to be reminded whose state and airports and genius it all really belongs to.
This afternoon 2 million people of undefined colour blocks are walking about the capital of Venezuela and its other cities.
The really keen and careful readers (the fans) will remember that just about the time Ignatius the Indingnant left 500,000 Opus Dei in Rome being watched by 500,000 red block strikers and just for colourful flavour 75,000 gay rights portesters, we also declared [we the global ´our resistance is as transnational as capitalism´ dudes and dudettes of the fifth international of anarko- trippi-hippi-freaki-crusty evolving revolutionary muppets] the presence of 1,000,000 undefined block of protesters, celebrators, manifestadors and police in Venezuela.

Well they haven´t gone away.

Now I´m going to take advantage of the peace on Irish webspace afforded by all ye comrades friends and muppets fighting the USA in the
to write an interesting global roundup.

In the words of Punki Churchill
"on the beaches"
"in the air"
"on the streets"
"and wherever they may pose a threat"
dude wasn´t je punky Churchill.
never see the like again.

o as if.
good luck in Shannon
I´m looking forward to the pics.

by Ger O'Reilly Sun Dec 08, 2002 16:20

I thought it was an excellent protest given the lousy weather and the obnoxious attitude of the guards. Good work to all concerned.
Now let's get ready for more protests as Bush and Blair crank up their war machine.

by Stephen Sun Dec 08, 2002 16:36

The only game I can see being played is some idiot using my name. Get a life.

--The real Stephen Rigney

by Spart Watcher Mon Dec 09, 2002 01:41

Did anyone hear the Sparts' slogan. I didn't quite here what went after 1,2,3,4. But I did hear what went after 5,6,7,8!

5,6,7,8 Defend the Chinese Workers' State!

For fucks sake! the Sparts were a bit off the mark, it was a march against the Bombing of Iraq. Surely a Trotskyist group should be transitional and adopt slogans that will be geared towards the people at teh march. To most there the argument about unconditional defence of China is not the first thing on the agenda!

(And surely China is a "deformed workers' state", not a workers' state?- or is it capitalist by now?)

by another spart watchher Mon Dec 09, 2002 02:26

the sparts have a bit of an obsession with defending the chinese "workers' state". you should have seen them around the time of the incident with the american spy plane; if they cornered you they would literally hop up and down with eagerness, trying even harder than usual to sell you a copy of their paper. it was almost funny!
i don't think trotsky would be very amused with his name and ideas being used in the way they use them.

by Ray Mon Dec 09, 2002 10:07

After all, right until he died he was calling for the defense of the Soviet Union. Is the PRC that much worse than the Russia of Stalin's dictatorship?

by King Mob Mon Dec 09, 2002 12:03

Brian cop the fuck on.

1,200? Try 500, if you're bleeding lucky.

And that priceless piece of self righteous shite Barrett dribbling on about how the march being prevented from going up grafton street was some how tied up with sept 11 and reclaim the streets.

Richard deciding your march should wander up one of the main shopping throughfairs in the city, on one of the most traditionally busy days of the year, was just fucking moronic.

I hate to say this but the Gardaí were right to prevent you from heading up.

If you had the "thousands" you claim you'd have you'd have created a stampede. The paltry 500 odd you had would have been ripped to shreds in a feeding frenzy of consumerism.

Either way you've have pissed off thousands of people just frantically trying to shop, alienating them from the antiwar movement.

by K W - SWP Dublin South Mon Dec 09, 2002 12:33

Infiltrators, liars, anarchists.

by Ray Mon Dec 09, 2002 12:37

I thought Kevin Wingfield lived out in Finglas? The crafty bugger is obviously trying to disguise his identity!

by Bored Mon Dec 09, 2002 12:41

In response to curious,
Do we all now need invitations to march against the war? Does it matter if the speaker is a member of the SWP or a memeber of Macra. What matters is that he is a very active activist against war and doesnt spend his time bitching and moaning on Indymedia. Get over the petty remarks and think about uniting for a common cause. The speaker by the way is the chair of the anti-war movement and a pretty good one at that.
A non-SWP member!

by King Mob Mon Dec 09, 2002 12:47

Shut up don't critize, buy the damn paper, grab the placard and conform.

We have to look at our mistakes, look at how to change and improve, and the best way to do that is to critize.

This weekend was simply put an utter disaster for the antiwar movement.

The HUGE demo in dublin had a pathetic turnout, and the SWP's whinging crys about grafton street are the tactics of someone trying to deflect attention from the demos serious shortcomings.

Shannon was in fact a complete joke. Aside from Ciaran et all staging an impressive photo op (and lets face it thats all it was) Nothing was accomplished aside from the Gardaí stacking up overtime.

A serious proportion of those attending were attending in the hope of particapting in a direct action, and due to feckless and incompendent leadership, that was not organised.

While I sympathise that those of GG want to move away from the authoratian practices of the IAWM's string pullers, the simple fact that the GG were ORGANISING the damn thing should mean they should be better prepared, and make decisions and lead and discuss.

The only thing that was really exposed this weekend is how disorganised, ineffective, and ill prepared both groups are.

And how dangerously ineffective this "movement" is

by Queen Mob - whine whine whine whine Mon Dec 09, 2002 14:43

One thing that was really encouraging about Saturday's demo was the fact that it was mostly comprised of young people, many of them schoolkids who spoke at the rally, and with a large working class presence, and also there were many new faces and many of the boring old farts weren't there on Saturday thank god. Also it was great that there were no politicians who spoke at the rally with their same old shite, much I'm sure to their annoyance. Even the MP from the so-called 'labour party' in england didn't turn up :-) Ha ha ha! Plus several young people who were passing by stopped to see what was happening and joined the various Anti war youth groups, Youth Against The War and School Students Against The War, and several other groups who's names escape me at the moment.

by pat c Mon Dec 09, 2002 15:12

i would put the demo size at 700 max, & not all of those went as far as the embassy. theres no point in trying to fool ourselves about how many were there.

it was dumb to keep people standing in the cold & rain when rbb knew the march wasnt going to get up grafton st. it was even dumber to suggest grafton st as a route in the first place.

iawm contiued its sectarian attitude to gg by refusing them a speaker. a last minute attempt by an iawm ctte member to allow a gg speaker was thwarted by rbb. eventually the shannon event was mentioned by rbb, but he didnt exactly encourage anyone to attend.

youth against war pulled a fast one on the swp by having a pub near the embassy booked for a post march meeting!

by Joe Sheehan Mon Dec 09, 2002 16:52

King Mob, the Shannon demo was called by the Grassroots Gathering, Grassroots is a consensus based non hirarchical organisation so there are no leaders, if you were there you would know that it was decided that there would be the opportunity for fluffy action first for those that wanted and then if people wanted to do actions they could do so.
If people did not get involved in actions they have no one to blame but themselves for not organising anything.
None of the people who facilitated are going to tell people what to do, there comes a time when you have to stand up and do things yourself, if you want actions organise them!

by Brian Cahill Mon Dec 09, 2002 18:00

Just a quick note on the size of the demonstration on Saturday:

As I said in my earlier report it was very difficult to get an accurate picture of the number of people on the march both because of the rain and because of its fluid nature (ie people joining and leaving as the march went along).

I walked up and down the length of the march a little bit before it reached the canal. It stretched for a long way and the best estimate I can come up with is that there were around 1,200 on the march at that stage.

If some others think that I have miscounted, fair enough, but I am not in the habit of deliberately exaggerating the numbers at particular protests or meetings. There isn't any point - the only people we would be fooling would be ourselves.

On the march and afterwards I heard a range of estimates being bandied around - from 2,000 (an SWPer) to 1,000 (an anarchist).

by Ray Mon Dec 09, 2002 18:29

The lowest I've heard was 300! (and that was at the Central Bank, supposedly much lower by the time it reached the embassy) But that's from someone who's even worse at these estimations than I am.

I've got to say, even 1200 is pretty awful. There were about twice that on earlier marches, and these demos should be getting bigger as they go along, not smaller! Was it the weather? The time of year? A perceived lack of urgency? People not seeing the point? Any ideas?

by Jordi Cruyff's dog Mon Dec 09, 2002 18:36

I laughed and laughed when I saw the few "School Students Against the War" posters up around town.

The SP build a youth wing (Soc Yoof), so the SWP try relaunching "Revolutionary Youth". SY launch "Youth Against the War" so the SWP try to set up "School Students Against the War".

Is this the new SWP strategy? Copy everything the SP does but in a less effective way?

by King Mob Mon Dec 09, 2002 18:56

The rule of thumb for figuring out attendence at demo

Gardaí estimate+SWP estimate/2 (-/+100)=approx turnout.

i.e. 300+1200/2 equals 750 Modify by 100 depended on how you feel the actual size it.

and Brian, you ARE in the habit of LYING, REGULARLY about turnouts. Your party is infamous for it.

What is so fucking wrong with the truth? It was awful lets figure out what went wrong. Rather than mislead yourself, lie like your opposite does (letting people know how little you can be trusted) and disgruntle people who are tired of lying wanker politicians.

Joe I am aware that it was agreed and was expected that shannon would be direct action, and a proportion of the people there attending (a large group) where eager and willing to particapte.

It's also painful obvious that the GG had put no time and zero effort into planning or researching any kind of direct action, which was essentially the reason why people were going.

Organising a demo because people are sick of walking to a from the embassy, and then not providing any kind of support or research, or well anything was just fucking moronic.

The last time at shannon there was essentially an accidental fence breach. And people came back enthusatic and movtivated. Look I'm not saying GG planned this, what I'm saying that GG took this no hierarchal wank one step too far, and no one was prepared to decide anything till a last minute plan (bollocks to fence inspection) was hashed out, a repeat of last time.

Which staggeringly the fucking Gardaí were waiting for!!!!

It was almost as childish moronic and stupid as RBB gibbering about Grafton St.

GG had suggested this, and then didn't carry through with it. This weekend has shown the sorry shambollock state of the Irish Antiwar movement

by SWP watcher Mon Dec 09, 2002 20:39

SWP are a great bunch of lads. I love the way they conform to the stereotype. They are not a serious force. Their politics amounts to Fuck Capitalism, Fuck the Police, Fuck Parliament. Nothing more and nothing less. Read their paper, it doesn't go beyond the rawness of 1st year student radicals. To say they're as subtle as a brick is an insult to bricks!!

I laughed alot when I saw they were trying to relaunch Revolutionary Youth. The difference between RY and SY is that SY are not totally dominated by their party's leadership and they consist of people that are not just raw radicals. I'm not an SY or SP member, this is my experience from talking to SY members.

by KM Mon Dec 09, 2002 21:29

That I agree with the "splitters" bollocks of the above post.

Christ, the moment you say something the knifes fucking come out

by Brian Cahill - Socialist Party Tue Dec 10, 2002 01:30

Look there isn't much point in arguing with someone whose point of view amounts to little more than calling me a liar.

The oddest thing about King Mob's post is that he seems to think that I am in the SWP. I am not.

And I am not in the habit of exaggerating the numbers at protests. In fact when counting heads becomes an issue I am almost invariably tend towards the lowest end of the serious (ie non-police) estimates. I strongly disapprove of the way in which some on the activist left seek to cook our books. So I am actually surprised to find someone here not just favouring a lower figure, but calling me a liar over it.

As a final aside, following King Mob's handy formula gives us a result remarkably close to my estimate. The only figures from an SWP member which I have heard so far were around 2,000. The cops said more than 300. Divide 2,300 by 2.

by Joe Sheehan Tue Dec 10, 2002 11:20

KM,

What I was saying is that the gang who facilitated WERE never going to organise any actions, if people wanted actions they were supposed to organise them themselves.

all that was to facilitated was the meeting point and a very general outline, which was agreed to by all at the meeting before the demo.

Again I repeat if you are so annoyed at the state of the Anti War movement and the demo organised, I look forward to seeing the King Mob against the war demo, which will doubtless be full of actions and very well attended.

by Angela Dinan Tue Dec 10, 2002 18:08 Cavan

King Moby talks a lot of crap but I have to say that Shannon was advertised as a DA demo. There was a lot of negative comments after the last demo in Shannon with people complaining only for the fence being pulled down.
There have been some comments saying how great the demom on Sunday was without slogans etc, but I can't see the difference between the 2 demos except that the first one pulled down the fence.
Also, just wondering why people bother complaining that one demo had slogans and megaphones and theother didn't when people do different things with the same aim - stopping the war, why war with eachother?
Ang

by Km Wed Dec 11, 2002 01:37

Your excuses are pitful....You're rampantly exaggerating and no one has come forward to support your bloated flatuant claims about the attendance. Shut the fuck up and go back to working in the department of finance or as ghost writing for Barbara Cartland as your day job.

Joe crap. The GG blatantly advertised this as a direct action through posts here about legal defense, and talking about previous demos. Furthermore the setting up of a legal defense center was an obvious set towards that. Even if that center was just some useless git with a phone

The simple fact is this demo was deeply flawed with GG unwilling to back up the expectations of those they'd drawn to this demo and disappointing and disillusioning those who they drew there.
Thats more damagibg the anti war movement than anything else.

I repeat this weekend was a disaster for the antiwar movement

by Spaceshipman Wed Dec 11, 2002 22:48

keep up the good work

by King Mob Hater - Kill King Mob Thu Dec 12, 2002 14:45 Gone to hell you long haired 4 eyed piece of shite 999 for the Ambulance, Fire Brigade, Police and the Morgue

Don't worry all of us King Mob Haters - who make up over 98% of everyone on Indymedia - King Mob will soon be gone to hell courtesy of a massive car bomb planted under his gaudy BMW Coupe. Yes a massive car bomb will kill you King Mob you long haired 4 eyed piece of shite.

by King Mob Thu Dec 12, 2002 19:15

Shit I have a BMW Coupé! Fuck no one told me, and here I am paddling away on a bicycle like the rest of you muppets.

by King Mob Thu Dec 12, 2002 19:18

My hatemail fan...

Fuck you you worthless piece of shit, you tell me to shut up cause you don't like what I have to say?

Piss off you pseudo liberal, the fact that I've got under your skin lets me know just how good a job I'm doing...

ta