Latest on Mary Kelly in Nablus and today's Dublin protest.

by Steve Thu Apr 18, 2002 08:46 SteveThinkALot at Hotmail dot com

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/world/2002/0418/3750815182FR18MARYKELLY.html

Steve

by Phuq Hedd Wed Apr 17, 2002 16:08

Addendum:
Kkeith and Donal,
you don't like the AI report because it shows that recently Arafat was torturing and imprisoning the political activists mostly repsonsible for suicide bombings. Well here's a Nov.2001 report which talks about this detention/torture and also the destabilizing effects of Israeli attacks on PA infrastructure:
http://www.hrw.org/press/2001/11/pa1130.htm

The report says at least ten separate Palestinian security and police forces are operating in PA territory, all of them operating above the law. They have systematically ignored orders from the High Court to release detainees who are being held arbitrarily. Detainees are commonly arrested without a warrant and are not told the reason for their arrest nor allowed access to a lawyer during interrogation. Once arrested, they can spend months in detention without charge or trial.

Donal, you state that you're happy that IDF wrong-doing will be punished/dealt with by the Israeli state apparatus. Well, it may be "dealt with", but that may not be enough. Sharon was found guilty of war crimes by an Israeli investigative parliamentary body but he's still reprising his role as a murderer of Palestinians (at least this time the IDF is doing the actual murder instead of merely stopping people escaping while their Phalangist proxies go on the rampage in the camps).
B.t.w. given that you claim to have developed a "balanced" perspective I wonder have you read Noam Chomsky's "Fateful Triangle"?

by Phuq Hedd Wed Apr 17, 2002 15:54

Hi Donal,
thanks for your reply. I am not convinced/swayed by your answers though.

I would like you to provide proof for your assumptions that: Arafat has control over the suicide bombers; that Israel is reacting to Palestinian aggression; that Israel is not committing one of the most outrageous human rights abuses in recent years.

I'd also like YOU to lay out the plan that you advise Tim Hourigan to lay out in comments above. What are YOU saying should happen? All that Tim Hourigan has asked for is that BOTH sides stop the killing. (I believe his position is flawed because it assumes that the PA/Arafat can do anything.)

You advised Tim Hourigan (above) to read some more and refine his knowledge of the situation. This is always a good thing to do and I entreat you to do the same. You imply that there are two sides to the dispute: this is a confusion. There are many pro-peace Israelis, pro-peace Palestinians.

http://www.jewsagainsttheoccupation.org/
http://www.nimn.org/
http://www.gush-shalom.org/english/

1. You claim that Arafat has merely to use his cell-phone to stop the suicide bombings.
This assumes that the 16-year old girl that was the last suicide bomber is:
i. being equipped by Fatah/PLO or the P.A., when in actuality the rhetoric of her last testament bears a closer alignment to Islamic Jihad than to the secular nationalist PLO.
ii. actually controllable by Arafat. It's like claiming that Gerry Adams has control of the 32 County Sovereignty movement.

2. You object to my evidence that Arafat is NOT in control of the suicide bombers because it dates from 1999. But that merely bolsters my argument that he is not: in 1999 Arafat was able to claim that he was achieving a Palestinian state and this muted the opposition (Islamic Jihad, Hamas, PFLP). With Israel's increased settlement activity and Sharon's provocative visit to "Haram al-Sharif"/"Temple Mount" Arafat's illusion of progress was eroded. Arafat was always sitting on top of a powderkeg, governing with a mixture of the stick of State-repression and the carrot of increased Palestinian autonomy. Israel (because of the domestic ambitions of Sharon) removed the carrot and the stick thus became inefficient.

by una - local breton feminist Wed Apr 17, 2002 15:38 tregor bretany france

I haven't been back in Ireland for two years and left very pist off with the lack of concern about anything else but money and themselves most people I met in Dublin had. I would like to understand why so few people take position and act when a country like palistine is living curent events. Is every one affraid of arabs? or is it that everyone has forgotten that the north of Ireland is still occupied by the english when Irish people should be able to understand how a palestinian feels when his people are being massacred, humiliated and treated as a nation of terrorists! The Irish government should be able to make it's voice louder and be listend to if more Irish showd there concern! I believe in the right of a nation to decide for it self and to get help when a stronger invades! ACTION NOW!!

by Donal Wed Apr 17, 2002 12:55 Dublin

In answer to your various points:

1.No organisation, simply an Irish consumer of news, expecting better value for my money, especially from national rafio and television who are financed by taxpayers like you and me.

2. Arafat has a cell-phone. 2 or 3 calls should do the trick. (see 5. below as well)

3. I absolutely condemn all forms of murder, committed in all directions (regardless of whether the victim is Jewish or Arab). I do not however pre-judge or buy the lies the way you seem to. Any and every mistake, error or crime that may have been committed by any member of the IDF (regardless of rank or position) that may have taken place will be brought to light by the moral and judicial institutions that exist within Israeli society. History has taught me to trust the integrity and transparency of these institutions, be they internal investigations within the IDF, or judicial enquiries outside of the IDF by the courts. So if and when there are real facts to prove any atrocities by the IDF, I will be the first to condemn these. On the other hand, history has shown that the same cannot be said for the Palestinians, or any of the other Arab states. Freedom of speech doesn't exist. Anyone moderate Palestinian who dares speak up against the thugs in charge gets executed and lynched. Hence the lies. I suggest you stop buying them.

4. Just borders!? Justice has to be discussed within a frame of reference. usually referrd to as LAW. In this case the law is embodied in agreements. When two parties agree to an offer, proposal or resolution of differences there exists what is called an agreement, hence peace and justice. Israel agreed to the pre-67 borders. None of the Arab states ever did until long after the '67 war, when only two of them did. They wanted the pre-48 borders - namely 0% of the land for the Jews. This means no agreement. When all the Arab nations declared war on Israel leading to the 67 war (Nasser - Straits of Tiran etc.), Israel defended herself and reduced her vulnerability to repeats of such attacks. Since then everything has been a new negotiation. Egypt has done it and won peace. So has Jordan. They accepted that Israel has a right to exist and relinquished their dreams of pre-48 border (no Israel). They can now talk about justice and 'just borders'. Syria, Lebanon and the Palestinians cannot until they complete the negotiation. Ball is in their court. It's their serve.

5. See Keith's response to this point above. The only detail I would add to Keith's point is that the host of this radio show, David Hanley, in obvious shock at this PLO spokesman admission that Arafat was absolutely in control of the suicide bombers, challenged him and repeated the question 3 times. On all the occassions he got the same answer. Arafat is ABSOLUTELY in control. Repeated 3 times. By the official PA representative here in Ireland. Does anything more need to be said???

(if it has happened G-d forbid - a crime such as a pre-meditated and targetted murder against an innocent civilian) that

by Kkeith Wed Apr 17, 2002 06:10

The web site you refer us to on point 5 is dated in 1999. At that time The bombing was less frequent.

My one and only point is the PA spokesman in Ireland stated on Irish radio that Arafat can control the suicide attacks. He was challanged twice on this matter and was clear in his leader being in position to do it.

Arafat heads a mafia style organisation. He is the big boss or Godfather. If you cross this man you are dead. His leadership of his people while under his control is a total failure. The terror campaign was a simple ploy to change the blame away from him and on to Israel. The whole conflict is the same, blame Israel for the pathetic corrupt and failed Arab regimes.

by Phuq Hedd - none Wed Apr 17, 2002 03:29

Donal,

1.who do you represent and what party are you aligned with?

2.how do you believe that Arafat is capable of stopping the suicide bombers?

3.do you, Donal, condemn the murder of Palestinians by the Israeli army?

4. do you Donal recognize that the pre-1967 borders are the just, reasonable and internationally (apart from Israel and the US) borders? (If not what do you know that makes you dismiss the opinion of every other country in the UN?)

5. do you Donal know that Arafat has been doing everything that he can to murder, torture and imprison without trial the "Islamic extremists" of Hamas, and his competitor secular Arab nationalists in the PFLP? If you don't then you might want to check out the report of Amnesty International into Arafat and the P.A. Contrary to the ignorant opinion bruited about he has little control over the organizations that were responsible for most of the suicide bombings. http://www.amnestyusa.org/ailib/aireport/ar99/mde21.htm

by Donal Wed Apr 17, 2002 03:09 Dublin

You've met the first two challenges honestly and head on.

You don't need 'any working eMails to Hamas or anyone else in charge'.

You have first class 'By Hand' mail directly to the supreme commander, architect and inventor of the suicide bombers.

You write that you are a friend of Mary Kelly's. We hear that Mary (and perhaps you too) is a friend of Caoimhe Butterly. Caoimhe is sitting in the same room as the man himself (may G-d protect her).

It seems to me that you are sitting in a very powerful position to really make a difference.

I also believe that you are sincere in wanting to do just this, in a balanced way, out of your interest in protecting both innocent Palestinian AND Jewish lives.

Here then is my suggestion and your third challenge (there will be more to follow):

Step 1: First get your strategy to be better aligned with your stated aims. This will require you to stand back from the picture somewhat, take a good hard second look at these aims, do some real in-depth research to better aquaint yourself with all the relevant facts (both versions of the history books), and then redefine your strategy, so that it becomes properly balanced. This may sound patronising (sorry), but I will be happy (if you wish) to help you with this first step (see below).

Step 2: Go public with this new strategy, for example on this newswire.

Step 3: Communicate this new strategy to your two friends (with the same passion you quite skillfully articulated in your letter to Mark Sofer). Explain to them that their peace campaign against violence (assuming it is as sincere as yours) will be far more effective when they achieve some measure of credibility as real pacifists by eliminating their currently perceived one sidedness in favour of the Palestinians.

Step 4: Influence them to communicate this new strategy in equally balanced fashion to both Arafat and to Sharon. It will be much easier for them to reach Arafat. It would probably be easier for you to reach Sharon through Mark Sofer (snail mail).

Regarding Step 1:

Here's a kick-start to set you off on the in-depth research I mentioned above: Check out how far (or how close) the following statements are from the truth.

1. The most powerful person in the world when it comes to influencing, controlling, recruiting, funding and training suicide bombers is Chairman Arafat.

2. The most influential person in the world when it comes to controlling preachers of sermons glorifying suicide bombers as heroes and martyrs; ordering official Palestinian media coverage of these terrorist attacks as positive; directing the writing of childrens school books to contain not only anti-Israeli, but also anti-Jewish racist content; authorising smuggling of illegal arms shipments; and ordering the execution and lynching without trial of hundreds of innocent Palestinians who dared to speak out against him as collaborators, is none other than Chairman Arafat.

3. Much more ... and more ... and more ...

I am not making any attempt (at this stage) to defend the tactics being employed by the IDF or by Sharon.

I am proposing proportionality and balance in your condemnations.

When I read your messages to your two friends, one of whom is in Arafat's offices with him, published in a public medium, condemning the 'moral repugnancy' of suicide bombings, and pleading with Arafat to put an end to this madness once and for all by returning to the negotiating table and renouncing his violence, you will have met Challenge No.3.

When I hear Mary Kelly and Caoimhe Butterly speaking out condemning the 'moral repugnancy' of suicide bombings, and pleading with Arafat to put an end to this madness once and for all by returning to the negotiating table and renouncing his violence, and when I hear them doing this as strongly, loudly, dramatically and passionately as they have been condemning the actions of Sharon and the IDF, you will have met Challenge No.4.

by Tim Hourigan Wed Apr 17, 2002 01:51

Check out "Ireland and the Arms Trade -decoding the deals" by Amnesty International
Available at Amanesy's shop in Fleet Street for about 6 EURO.

It lists companies and some details of export licences to Israel.

I have personally spoken to companies which are exporting components (e.g. digital targeting and weapons fire control systems) to Israel and other countries. Nasty business.

by Tim Hourigan Wed Apr 17, 2002 01:49

Yes I am interested in stopping violence against all innocent people.

I don't see any way I can put pressure on the suicide bombers or Hamas to stop what they are doing, but if I could do so then I would.

If you have a working e-mail address, etc for Hamas or anyone else in charge of that pass it on and I'll condemn them too, for whatever good it will do me or anyone else. I am not sure what good my letter to the Israeli ambassador or Sharon will do either, but it's worth a try.

I think it is completely reprehensible to give young palestinians a belt of explosives to go and kill ordinary Israeli citizens.
I'm not a fan of traditional warfare either, but at least restricting it to combatants is less screwed up.

I don't think that Sharon's response to suicide bombings is even close to sane never mind realistic.

murdering hundreds of palestinians (some of which may be terrorsist, but not most of them) is an atrocity, and counter productive as it will only add to the queue to become martyrs.
That's self sustaining in times like these.

Any suggestions yourself?

Glad you don't think I'm an anti-semite by the way. I got very tired of that type of argument.

Tim. (probably last posting before dozing off)

by Daltun Wed Apr 17, 2002 01:45

If its true that Ireland is exporting weapons components to Israel, then it is complicit in Israeli genocide against the Palestinians.

by Donal O'Connor Wed Apr 17, 2002 01:40 Dublin

1. I understand that your agenda is to get out the truth about what is happening, with an aim to stopping the violence through international pressure.

2. I don't suspect you of being an anti-semite, and commend both your agenda and your aim.

3. Accepting all of this, here is my second challenge for you: Tell us if you are interested in stopping ALL violence that is taking place in this conflict, namely violence that is committed against both Palestinian civilians, AND Israeli civilians.

by Tim Hourigan Wed Apr 17, 2002 01:36

CHALLENGE? That's a good one.
Tell me who you work for!
Noone... very easy question. next...
I am a member of a few groups like the Green party, and Gluaiseacht but my views here are my own.

If you want to know my agenda I think it's failry clear from my letter to the Israeli ambassador, on the newswire.

What's the story with you Donal? "if that is your real name"... ;) Paranoid? or just don't like people criticising the Israeli military?

And what the hell are we both doing up so late?

Regards,

Tim.

by Tim Hourigan Wed Apr 17, 2002 01:32

I am just telling you what Mary Kelly told us on the phone from Nablus. I consider Mary Kelly to be a friend of mine, and if she tells me she was surrounded by Israeli soldiers then I believ her.

The report from the Dublin protest is first hand.
I was in the hotel, and then outside the hotel as part of the protest.

I have no agenda other than getting out the truth about what is happening, with an aim to stopping the violence through international pressure.

Is that good enough for you or am I suspected of being some sort of anti-semite for reporting this?

Regards,

Tim.

by Donal O'Connor Wed Apr 17, 2002 01:20 Dublin

Please inform us what organisation you represent, and state the charter and aims of your organization.