URGENT Coaches from Dublin

by Andrew Thu Dec 05, 2002 12:14

If you can't go to Shannon but can donate money towards the cost of hiring a second coach from Dublin this would also be very, very helpful

by As do many many other ghosts Thu Dec 05, 2002 12:21

Even if the coppers might harrass y'all. I'd do it myself but can't make saturday

by Andrew Thu Dec 05, 2002 12:27

Not a bad idea except

1. The coach needs to be booked by Friday so we need most of the money committed by then.

2. The IAWM probably intend to do a collection and seeing as they won't allow a GG speaker at the march and are not willing to sell tickets for Shannon they would almost certainly not wish us to do a collection at it. (It's their event so they are entitled to make these decisions even though its a case of cutting off your nose to spite your face). Going ahead and doing one anyway would not be helpful to our attempts to improve relations with them, something that may still be possible.

by hopespringseternal Thu Dec 05, 2002 12:52

I don't understand.

Is the IAWM also sending/mobilising people down to Shannon on Sunday and if so, is this seperate from GG?

What is so different about IAWM from GGAntiWar?

by Andrew Thu Dec 05, 2002 13:16

There are obvious differences in organisational method and tactical emphais between IAWM and GG both of which have been discussed at length on the indymedia newswire. If you are interested in these just go back through the archive.

Leaving that aside its obviously of interest to everyone who opposes the war that both groups seek ways to co-operate despite these differences. In terms of the Dublin GG group we have made a number of efforts to do this which I won't detail for now but some are obvious, eg advertising for the IAWM march on all our posters and at our meeting last night.

The suggestion was made on the newswire last month that the IAWM consider also running coaches to Shannon. Some of the committee replied saying they would not do this as they felt this was up to the GG to do so. It has also been suggested to them that they sell tickets for the GG buses on Saturdays deom. They have replied that they are not willing to do this. They have also been asked to allow a GG speaker on Saturdays demo to encourage people to go to Shannon. They have decided not to do this.

However its not all bad news - they have said (I believe) that they will announce the Shannon demonstration on the march and yesterday at least the IAWM website was advertising the Shannon demo as well as Saturdays one.

I think this answers your question - the main point is that at least in terms of the Dublin GG we have tried to improve relations and despite the fact we have mostly been rebuffed we are leaving this door open. We will be taking part in Saturdays demonstration and we have been advertising it. Beyond this we can only make requests to the IAWM, it is up to those who control it how they respond to such requests.

by As for who polices the police Thu Dec 05, 2002 13:16

GG= Grassroots Gathering = pretty much everybody else.

by Eamonn Crudden Thu Dec 05, 2002 13:19

Because I posted it there 3 days ago

by Barry W Thu Dec 05, 2002 15:00

As I understand it, as the main anti war organisation, the Irish Anti War Movement is open to all comers and has a steering group that represents the various people involved.

I believe the people who set up the grassroots gathering have refused to become involved or participate in this co-ordinating group. This is a pity as it could help iron out these problems.

As I also understand it the grassroots gathering was called by anachists who invited "libertarians" to attend. Of course they have as much right as anyone else to organise events in their own way, but a simple phone call to the IAWM people could have avoided the clash of two demonstrations on successive days.

I am active in a local anti war group that is building for Saturday's demonstration. We have postered (prepared before the Grassroots Gathering announcement) leafleted and done a lot of work to try to build a big protest on Saturday in DDublin against the war. There has been some confusion with people saying they're going to Shannon on Sunday instead. For a lot of people it is one or the other and the sight of two protests within 24 hours leaves people thinging we are silly.

I have seen lots of postings on this site attacking the IAWM from what I take to be those associated with the Grassroots Gathering. This doesn't seem to me the best way to engender co-operation. It seems to me hardly surprising the IAWM are not amenable to have a GG person speak at their demonstration with more of the same.

No doubt the IAWM will want to collect from its supporters to defray the costs of posters etc in building Saturday's protest. No doubt on Sunday the GG people can do the same at their event.

The IAWM has buses coming from around the country to Saturday's protest which need to be paid for. I haven't seen offers from GG people to help out. They can hardly expect IAWM to stump up.

Snide remarks and hostility towards the Irish Anti War Movement and its activites has been much in evidence here from those associated with GG. If GG don't like the IAWM (that is why they set GG up in the first place I understand) it seems silly to pursue a parasitic mentality of expecting IAWM to sell their tickets, replace their publicity, facilitate speeches and collections at their events.

Of course if GG would particpate in the Irish Anti War Movement and its co-ordinating body, they would still be free to do their own thing but could avoid damaging clashes like this. Their failure to do this simple thing has been unfortunate. After all we all supposed to be against George Bush and his war aren't we?

by Tom - free spirit Thu Dec 05, 2002 15:10

"main anti war organisation"

That's why people don't trust the IAWM. When Justin Barrett says that he's the leading anti-Nice campaigner I don't believe him, and I don't believe the IAWM when they say that they are the movement either.

Self-appointed leaders. Just like the revolution.

by Ray Thu Dec 05, 2002 15:28

George Bush is the main enemy - so anything not organised by the IAWM should be ignored.
Its great how all these calls for 'unity' so often translate into 'do what I say or fuck off'.

by Barry W Thu Dec 05, 2002 17:20

I personally don't have any objection to anyone organising anything. It's GG people here who are acting as though they are seeking co-operation to pay their bills and are being rebuffed.

My point is that if they wanted co-operation with the IAWM it was always available -- they chose not to participate in the co-ordinating group although the other groups did and do.

Summarising: GG call a demo one day after the IAWM Dublin demo (a clash they could easily have avoided by a phone call or two), then demand that IAWM take tickets for their (GG) demo, reprint IAWM posters to advertise GG stuff and invite GG to speak at the IAWM rally. One of their number even suggested taking a bucket collection at the IAWM protest not for IAWM but for GG. All the time GG people post snide attacks on IAWM. (One even demanded IAWM call off its demo to facilitate GG, several implied IAWM were about "pointlessly marching around streets" and others try to attack the IAWM as an SWP front).

You can hardly expect good relations if you behave like that. And when the IAWM fails to fall into line with the GG demands IAWM are told our idea of unity and co-operation is "do what we say or fuck off".

I hope all the protests are a success. I think posts like your's don't help and piss good people off. And get Indymedia the kind of reputation it has among casual browsers.

by Stenka Razin - The Cossack Host Thu Dec 05, 2002 17:26

"As I also understand it the grassroots gathering was called by anachists who invited "libertarians" to attend."

Most of the people at the Grassroots Gatherings were not anarchists, it's only parameters are a belief in direct action and direct democracy (I think), which can include people from the Green Party, and even some Marxists!!!!!!!

I know this will not make any difference to the poster I'm replying to, but I do think that referring to the gatherings as anarchist events, is a misrepresentation of a lot of the people who attend them (the majority as far as I could see, in Cork anyways, maybe more anarchos at Belfast, but still less than half?).

Anyways about 100 people were at the meeting in Belfast (which called it), and there have been/are local organising meetings in Cork, Limerick, Galway, and Dublin which are open to all.
There will be another meeting on the day, but sorry there is no leadership in Dublin, elected or otherwise.

by Conor - (WSM personal capacity) Thu Dec 05, 2002 17:27

Barry: I believe the people who set up
the grassroots gathering have refused to become
involved or participate in this co-ordinating group.
This is a pity as it could help iron out these problems.

This is completely and utterly incorrect we have tried repeatedly by phone, e mail and persoanl contact
to co ordinate with them !!! It is in both our interests and we have always appreciated this fact. As pointed out by Andrew we have advertised and will actively support the demonstration on Saturday - a small amount of reciprocation might be nice!

As I also understand it the grassroots gathering
was called by anachists who invited "libertarians" to attend.
Of course they have as much right as anyone else to organise events
in their own way, but a simple phone call to the IAWM people could
have avoided the clash of two demonstrations on successive days.

GG contains also sorts of people and groups, some anarchist – many not,
and repeated attempts have been made to contact the IAWM

Your understanding is incorrect

For a lot of people it is one or the other and the sight of two protests within 24 hours leaves people thinking we are silly.

Two coordinated protests on a week end of action could
have been an excelent week end of action and demonstrated we were
strong, well co ordinated and well organised movement . What people actually think, at this stage, might not be printable on a "family friendly" web site

No doubt the IAWM will want to collect from its supporters to defray the costs of posters etc in building Saturday's protest. No doubt on Sunday the GG people can do the same at their event.

why don't we both help/coordinate with each other at either action/demo it seems logical What is YOUR motivation in painting the two actions into to opposing corners??? How exactly does the help any one?

If GG don't like the IAWM (that is why they set GG up in the first place I understand)

It was actually set up well before the present war plans against Iraq went into effect !

Barry: Of course if GG could participate in the Irish Anti War Movement and its co-ordinating body, they would still be free to do their own thing but could avoid damaging clashes like this. Their failure to do this simple thing has been unfortunate. After all we all supposed to be against George Bush and his war aren't we?

Not only have we tried very hard - we have a considerable amount of evidence to prove it
- lets build for two excellent actions

Conor (WSM persoanl capacity)

by OBSERVER Thu Dec 05, 2002 17:36

You are not doing your Party any favour posting this shit.

by Ray Thu Dec 05, 2002 17:38

- GG call a demo one day after the IAWM Dublin demo (a clash they could easily have avoided by a phone call or two)

The IAWM held a meeting on the Thursday, and decided to call a demo. The GG was on the weekend, and called their demo. The following week, both groups announced their demos. Why not blame the IAWM for not making 'a phone call or two' to inform the GG of their demo? There were many more people at the GG meeting than the IAWM meeting - why should the larger meeting have phoned the smaller meeting?

- then demand that IAWM take tickets for their (GG) demo

Nobody 'demanded' anything. The GG people apprently thought that the IAWM would support all anti-war actions, and so would be happy to make tickets available to their supporters. Its a long stretch to paint the GG people as the bad guys in that incident.

- reprint IAWM posters to advertise GG stuff

The IAWM didn't even announce their demo until after the GG. Are you seriously arguing that they'd already printed all their posters at that stage?

- and invite GG to speak at the IAWM rally.

Take a look at the list of speakers for the last IAWM protest in Dublin. Then ask yourself why the IAWM wouldn't let someone speak to announce another anti-war action.

- One of their number even suggested taking a bucket collection at the IAWM protest not for IAWM but for GG.

And then another pointed out that the IAWM would probably have their own bucket collection to cover their own costs. End of discussion.

- All the time GG people post snide attacks on IAWM.

Like the reverse never happened. Where have you been?

by Barry W - IAWM Thu Dec 05, 2002 17:38

GG supporters here say the IAWM is not the main anti war movement in Ireland. Obviously I disagree (IAWM had the affiliation of the many groups and parties and is genuinely broadly based)but no matter.

You obviously don't want to co-ordinate with the IAWM. (Never discussed with IAWM a callendar of events for example, let alone send someone to the co-ordinating meetings). Fine that's your choice.

If you think GG is just the job, if you think IAWM is as bad as you say, why worry about what the IAWM does?

You obviously then don't need us to pay for your buses or advertise your protests or give your people a platform. Don't worry about us. Not much point in endlessly carping on about us. Why not spend your energy instead building your movement and we'll build ours.

Best of luck.

by CPA Thu Dec 05, 2002 17:48

There are now coaches coming from Galway and Limerick AND CORK and large contingents from Belfast, Derry and Limerick.

by Andrew Thu Dec 05, 2002 17:51

The irony here is 'Barry W.' started his posts under the title 'George Bush is the main enemy'. Yet it appears his actual purpose it to ensure that as deep a division as possible is created between the IAWM and the GG! Perhaps in fighting this 'main enemy' looking for path of co-operation between the various anti-war groups (there are more then the two under discussion) would make a little more sense!

by Ray Thu Dec 05, 2002 17:57

- If you think GG is just the job, if you think IAWM is as bad as you say, why worry about what the IAWM does?

Because the people involved in the GG are serious about trying to make the anti-war movement in Ireland as big as possible? That means encouraging GG members to go to the IAWM protests, and IAWM members to go on the GG protests. The trouble is, the IAWM don't seem to agree on this, and aren't interested in supporting protests that they don't control. I hope the GG continue in their attempts to persuade the IAWM to put the issue ahead of their organisation.

by pat c Thu Dec 05, 2002 18:14

i have no axe to grind, no grudges against the swp. i have defended them on many occasions on indy.

whats happening here is not nice. the iawm appear to be deliberately ignoring the shanon demonstration. why does barry see the 2 as being in opposition?

gg campaigners have been publicising both demos. i did so in my postings to indy. i also put up gg posters & gave out gg leaflets which mentioned both demos.

i find the attitude of iawm inexplicable. they are doing themselves no favours, independent activists are not dumb, they have access to indymedia, they can read gg leaflets. they will wonder why the iawm are ignoring the shannon demo.

by barry Thu Dec 05, 2002 18:14 limerick

The IAWM doesn't to the best of my knowledge represent anyone outside Dublin(SWP branches possibly excluded but they are most likely represented by the national ie Dublin commitee). That is both Irish and National only in the sense that those words are understood in Dublin.

HOWEVER, maybe it's time that all those who feel excluded from the 'national' element of the IAWM went to co-ordinating meetings, got some reps elected to the 'national' steering commitee and began to make real the fantasies of those who describe the IAWM as a 'national' movement. Also until the IAWM deigns to call meetings outside of Dublin perhaps some of those in Dublin who feel unrepresented by the IAWM could go along and get them to change their name to the more accurate DAWM (and take control if they have the numbers to pull that old trick;)

by Not anarchist Fri Dec 06, 2002 09:10

Hundreds of ordinary people are coming to Shannon Ireland BECAUSE the SWP is NOT involved. Don't chain us to their sinking boat.

by conor Fri Dec 06, 2002 11:55 krossphader at hotmail dot com

IF the left in this countery continue to act like losers thats exactly how people will treat us

anyway back to Barry

GG supporters here say the IAWM is not the main anti war movement in Ireland. Obviously I disagree (IAWM had the affiliation of the many groups and parties and is genuinely broadly based)but no matter.

A. when and where did GG suporters say this?
B. WhY does it matter SO MUCH to you who is the MAIN anti war movement?

As I have already said we would be delighted to cooporate with the IAWM but our efforts have been rebuffed
Barry your doing yourself no favour with this Childish nonsense of thw "who owns what variety"

Barry: You obviously don't want to co-ordinate with the IAWM. (Never discussed with IAWM a callendar of events for example, let alone send someone to the co-ordinating meetings). Fine that's your choice.

er............. at the risk of sounding like a broken record - 2 members of GG in Dublin
spent most off last week doing ALMOST NOTHING ELSE EXCEPT trying to contact the IAWM by phone,
e Mail and personal contact
we finally got an "informal chat" with two committee members at which we made three "requests" not demands as Barry stated.
These were VERY SMALL and BASIC acts of solidairty
and help fullness involving no particular surrender of political positions so to speak
we were turned down flat on all three!

Barry: If you think GG is just the job, if you think IAWM is as bad as you say, why worry about what the IAWM does?

We all need every one to work together on this there is no "shining light"pointing the way - to hold this attitude towards different campaigns is ferociously silly mate ! wouldn't you actually like to feck the US jets out of Shannon or is it just about being in "the right campaign"

You obviously then don't need us to pay for your buses or advertise your protests or give your people a platform. Don't worry about us. Not much point in endlessly carping on about us. Why not spend your energy instead building your movement and we'll build ours.

Best of luck.

THIS IS PURE SILLY

Andrew and Conor
by Not anarchist Fri, Dec 6 2002, 8:10am

Hundreds of ordinary people are coming to Shannon Ireland BECAUSE the SWP is NOT involved. Don't chain us to their sinking boat.

Come on "not anarchist" - this is just mad as well - I 've got problems with the SWP but they are just another lefty group at the end of the day
- lets keep
a wee bit of perspective

Conor (pers capacity)

Conor

by Barry W Fri Dec 06, 2002 12:31

1. In common with other IAWM supporters I wish the GG Shannon protest success. I have no wish to attack GG but simply to reply to a bucket load of sectarian inspired flames and smears on this site.

2. The IAWM has organised the large scale anti war demos in Ireland, held conferences and activists meetings which all have been welcome to.

It has hundreds of members and affiliated local groups around the country. Affiliate send delegates to co-ordinating meetings to plan activites.

3. Those who set up GG did not get involved or send delegates to these activists meetings. Posts in the past by GG supporters on this site said it was a waste of time to be involved with the structures of IAWM, etc, etc.

4. IAWM was not notified of your plan to hold a demo until after their own posters were printed. (Not everyone reads Indymedia every day)
Immediately posts appeared here attacking IAWM, accusing it of sectarianism, etc, etc. If the IAWM had been consulted before GG made their plans, no dopubt the demonstrations could have been phased in such a way that their wan't any cutting across one another. No attempt to discuss with the IAWM BEFORE announcing the GG demo was made by GG. If you want unity, and co-operation with the broad based umbrella which has organised the big protest in Ireland, this would have been an elementary step.

5. If those who later set up GG had from way back sent their delegate to the co-ordinating meetings or the activist conference, they could have harmonised their activities and avoided this argument. They CHOSE not to.

6.. Yet despite all this a series of smears against IAWM are set up in Indymedia. Having rubbished the efforts of IAWM, having had demands placed on us in Indymedia that the IAWM call off its March to the US Embassy in favour of the GG Shannon protest, the IAWM are then in the last week or so before the weekend, it seems, suddenly expect to fall in with the needs of the GG.

7. If you want co-operation you can have it. If you had affiliated and sent your delegate to the planning meetings and harmonised you efforts like the other groups have these upsets could be avoided.

If you want to go off and do your own thing, that's OK too, but don't be surprised if other people's priorities have been established by their own co-operative activities and cannot be set aside just because you say they should.

8. For the IAWM the main priority remains the March to the US Embassy this sateruday at 2pm from Cenral Bank Plaza. This is a protest that thousands of people, especially people who are not specialist activists but people with family or wrk commitments, can attend relatively easily.
To build a serious national demonstration requires concentration. The anti war sentiment and movement is growing in Ireland but it is not so huge that we can afford not to concentrate on one thing at a time a do it well.

9. In the interests of opposing Bush and his gang I have no interest in belittling the efforts of the GG. I wish it luck. Your energy that is wasted attacking the efforts of the IAWM and is affilitates is doing none of us any good. It would be better directed against Bush.

by Ray Fri Dec 06, 2002 13:28

If you want to be treated with respect, if you want your anti-war actions to be supported by the IAWM, you have to join the IAWM. If you want the IAWM to offer any practical support, you have to send your proposal to the committee before calling your action. We will continue to call for 'unity', but will not allow organisers from other campaigns to speak at our demos, because our claim to ownership of the anti-war campaign is much more important than any possible success the campaign could have.
That's just pathetic.

by Conor (last time honest) Fri Dec 06, 2002 13:33 krossphader at hotmail dot com

OK just to answer some of Barry's ten points (and actually I agree with a good bit of the other stuff he says!)...........................

Barry: No attempt to discuss with the IAWM BEFORE announcing the GG demo was made by GG. If you want unity, and co-operation with the broad based umbrella which has organised the big protest in Ireland, this would have been an elementary step.

TRUE

Well I acknowledge it would have been better if there had of been communication between the groups before the GG meeting (Communication, by the way,is a two way thing and can be initiated by either "side" if "sides" is yo thing)
the point was to ENABLE the communication as soon as possible once the problem arose and actually, as I said earlier, having 2 things on one week end – “a week end of action” may not be a bad thing ne c’est pas? !

Barry: having had demands placed on us in Indymedia that the IAWM call off its March to the US Embassy in favour of the GG Shannon protest, the IAWM are then in the last week or so before the weekend, it seems, suddenly expect to fall in with the needs of the GG.

Come off it!
individuals expressed opinions indy media (as can happen!!) - you'd think you were under a constant attack or something !!
- some in GG disagreed with the march

some (like me self and andrew disagreed with the counter posing of marches v direct action)

The GG is a loose federal structure individuals in it have their own opinions
- GG made no DEMANDS as a body that I know off.

7. If you want co-operation you can have it. If you had affiliated and sent your delegate to the planning meetings and harmonised you efforts like the other groups have these upsets could be avoided.

Well we'd like to (well at least I think it wouldn't be a bad idea!)
- however the sort of mass movement we would envisage would be federal where individuals cooperate on a voluntary basis and share info and do stuff together if they agree. The IAWM seems to have more of a democratic centralist mode of organisation where all committee decisions are binding on all affiliates.
- Am i wrong ??
I'd REALLY like to be !!

Barry: If you want to go off and do your own thing, that's OK too, but don't be surprised if other people's priorities have been established by their own co-operative activities and cannot be set aside just because you say they should.

well was any one asked to move the earth, change their line, put new badges on their anoracks

NO

we asked
Could we have a speaker? (for a very brief appeal)
Could we sell some tickets?
Would the IAWM block book a small number of tickets?

Yes folks these are the "demands" which has shaken the IAWM to its core !
Anyway they said no – c’est la vie

Barry: For the IAWM the main priority remains the March to the US Embassy this Saturday at 2pm from Cenral Bank Plaza. This is a protest that thousands of people, especially people who are not specialist activists but people with family or wrk commitments, can attend relatively easily.
To build a serious national demonstration requires concentration. The anti war sentiment and movement is growing in Ireland but it is not so huge that we can afford not to concentrate on one thing at a time a do it well.

A “specialist activist” who has that sort of time !!
Its not an impossible task to get on a bus to Shanon either and I’m VERY pleased to see the IAWM has organised one for Shannon on January 18th ??

Any way fair enough we support that aim and hope its very successful in what way EXACTLY are we cutting across y'all here ?

9. In the interests of opposing Bush and his gang I have no interest in belittling the efforts of the GG. I wish it luck. Your energy that is wasted attacking the efforts of the IAWM and is affilitates is doing none of us any good. It would be better directed against Bush.

You left out Saddam but hey I’m nit picking !

OK I haven't attacked the IAWM I've tried to lay out the facts. If others on indy media have they are entitled to their opinion. GG has NEVER to my knowledge issued any public statement attacking the IAWM in any way and I can't see what could be gained by doing so

CONOR (PERS CAPACITY)