Today the three Irish neutral passport holders refused to attend trial in Columbia

by iosaf Tue Dec 03, 2002 12:36

sorry misspelling!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i send you the interview with FARC prison leader when I´m in the position to "update" BBC/RTE/CIA old news.

by Paul S Tue Dec 03, 2002 12:48

"They are passport holders of a neutral state" - this is irrelevent as to whether they are guilty or not. They are under suspicion of being member of the IRA, the IRA were never neutral, they always had, and probably still have, links with military outfits around the world. They bought their guns off Colonel Gaddafi for fuks sake.

"Bring them home to castigate them if you will, just bring them home"

Why should they be brougth home, if found guilty they shoud serve a long stint in prision.

by Robby - RN Tue Dec 03, 2002 13:03 rob_s57 at hotmail dot com Dungannon

What a load of cr*p

they think they will not recieve a fiar trial
EVERYONE WHO IS CAUGHT RED HANDED SAYS THAT
They are passport holders of a neutral state
BUT I THOUGHT ONE OR MORE OF THEM WERE HOLDING BRITISH PASSPORTS
and are being tried in a country with an appaling humanrights records.
SO IF A COUNTRY HAS A BAD HUMAN RIGHTS RECORD THEIR NOT ALLOWED TO HAVE A JUSTICE SYSTEM?
And that country is party to the international war on terrorism.
AT LEAST THAT COUNTRY IS DOING SOMETHING
Bring them home to castigate them if you will, just bring them home. IF YOU CASTIGATE THEM THEN THAT IMPLIES THAT THEY ARE GUILTY FOR SOMETHING.

by Andrew Tue Dec 03, 2002 13:20

There are a number of points to be made here

1. The idea that the 3 can get a fair trial in Colombia is laughable after you have already have senior politicans proclaiming that they are guilty. In many countries including Ireland they would already have been released because of this.

2. The judical system in Colombia in any case is extremly biased towards the government - I very much dougbt that for anyone accused of a political crime there can be such a thing as a fair trial in Colombia

3. Even after all that what exactly are they accused of? Helping one side in a civil war between the government and an opposition group which the government has recognised as combatants. Whatever one thinks of FARC the fact is that the US and Britain has been providing political and military advisors (as well as equipment) to the government for years. No one is seeking to put Bush or Clinton on trial for this are they yet the governments human rights record is considerably worse then FARC's.

So even if they did what they are accused of (and there seems to be no real evidence to back up these accusations) so what? In the future the people of Columbia will need to unravel the events of the long dirty war which has killed tens of thousands but the idea that the state forces most responsible for this are the ones to do so is laughable.

by ho hum Tue Dec 03, 2002 13:28

but should we leave them in columbia, a country so eagerly in need of a show trial, guilty or not the fact is that the columbian court is very unlikely to really care about that technicality and just find them guilty so that they can point to outside influences as being partly to blame for the countries awful state, not their fault after all, evil johnny foreigner is to blame, lucky they come from a small country that can't exert pressure like other big players in that land, without ever of course mentioning the way the right wing guerrillas are funded and armed, quite frankly i couldnt give much of a fuck about columbia, but does our peace process need this ammunition for the unionists and those who try to paint nationalists as being part of ian paisleys weird conspiracy theories, it would be much better if we got them and we punished them if they are guilty so as to show that the republic is not complicit in what the world is being told is international terrorism. Its not a simple trial theres a lot of politics there and if everyone was as simple as those last few comments they are missing the whole point of show trials.

by iosaf Tue Dec 03, 2002 13:58

issue 50 of the Benetton sponsered "COLORS" magazine featured prisons throughout the world.

"with over eight million people held in penal institutions the prison population is one of the fastest growing communities in the world. In the USA a country which holds 25% of the world´s prison population but only 5% of the world´s population, prisons are now the fastest category of housing in the country.
For Colors 50 we have visited 14 prisons in 14 countries.......
in most cases the stories we heard confirmed one thing.
THAT PRISON DOES NOT WORK.

most of the photos in issue 50 are of Columbian prisoners.
a US drug charged inmate.
and leaders of the FARC and AUC groupings.

"Ramon, leader of the FARC, the largest left-wing rebel group, in the north wing of La Modelo. We're not well in Colombia's prisons. Our jails work through corruption. They're not a model of redemption or rehabilitation, but rather one of extortion. When you see how the state abandons you, its hatred of you, especially here in prison, you end up being resentful. The state has a hatred of humans meant to annihilate them, not physically but psychologically. The people here are poor, if they had money they wouldn't be here. The oligarchy is this country's biggest problem. The same surnames always come back. The only solution to Colombia's problems is rebellion. ??RAMON."

this photo was published earlier this year.
Amnesty international recently reported it´s erious displeasure at being refused access to inspect Irish prisons.
I have no where and at no time suggested that I may judge these 3 fellow citizens better than others. But I have affirmed my belief that this case is one of human rights abuses.
I am aware that Paul Hill of the Guildford 4 is closely observing this case and also is calling for their repatriation.
This is not "a case against the IRA". This is an Irish Neutrality and citizenship issue and one which must prompt "Irish civil society" to consider the meaning of it´s constitutional protection afforded to it´s citizens.
If I may quote:
"iarnaa aire gnóthaí Eachtracha na hÉireann ar ghach n-aon lena mbaineann ligeann dá shealbhóir seo, saoranách d´Éirinn, gabháil ar aghaidh gan bhac gan chosc agus gach cúnamh agus caomhnú is gá a thabhairt don sealbhóir.

If Amnesty international have serious doubts as to Irish prisons then I do not think Columbian prisons would rate very high.
I said have said now several times,
bring them home.
if you wish to ring them home to "castigate/chide/imprison/retry" them then do so. But if you don´t support their return, then you have dismissed the constitutional wish of neutrality, thus just in future "argue directly for US satelite status".
and stop logging on to indymedia, you aren´t one of the family. As many of us have tried at great lengths to show you poor ignorant fools, to be part of the indymedia network is to be invovled in "thought crime" and "a terrorist network".

I shall soon publish an interview with Ramon, but meantime look at his photo.
the one before is of his opposite number.
the one before is of a US citizen, read his words about bribes/ protection money.
goto indymedia columbia Oct 4, for an article on the Irish prisoners.

by Paul S Tue Dec 03, 2002 14:05

Point 1. This bollox about a show trial, these men are on trial because even to a casual observer the case is compelling against them. On current evidence the most reasonable explation is that these men were part of an IRA delegation with expert engineering knowledge (not just political observers) travelling under false documentation as guests of FARC. It does not take much of a leap of the imagination to suggest that they were in the business of passing on their expert knowledge. There is every reason thus why they should stand trail. Whether the evidence is compelling enough to link them with the alleged crime is one thing, but everybody know they weren't birdwatching.

Point 2. "does our peace process need this ammunition for the unionists" - this is irrelevant, if the IRA were training FARC then unionist have every right to view it as the IRAs contempt for the political process and everything they now claim to stand for (see Justin's (SF) promotion of the Peace and Neutrality Alliance earlier on wire - doesn't rest easily with hanging around with narco-terrorist in Columbia).

by iosaf Tue Dec 03, 2002 14:06

where did you find that "they bought their guns off of Col. Ghadaffi" line?
I was unaware that the arms shipments made to a variety of groupings in the 1980´s by the Libyan government had been accompanied by invoices.
I would really like to see the reciepts.
Can you give us a link? And would you be interested in a breakdown of arms supply to AUC, and other groupings by Washington and London?
Perhaps we could begin with 1943 Greece?

by iosaf Tue Dec 03, 2002 14:10

can you Paul S. answer these questions?
who funded the development of Crack cocaine?
who funded the development of Opium cultivation in Columbia?
who funded the development of cross bred Coca cultivation in Columbia?
just asking, there are many friends and relatives of the uncounted victims of Heroin and Cocaine and Crack in London, USA and Amsterdam who might like to know.
You write of "narco-terrorism".
do you have a source for that term?
Would you like links to the DEA/CIA [oh sorry sure the CIA ´tis above already]?

by Phil Tue Dec 03, 2002 14:11

So the Columbian prison system is pretty nasty, boo hooo, even more reason not to break the law when you’re there. These men are smart and chose to break the law, they were fully aware of the risks they were running. This site should concentrate on the real victims of justice, not the IRA and other group that have perpetrated so much injustice, (and that doesn’t mean I fancy Paisley simpletons)

by iosaf ipsiphi 23 rt hon. j tweedle dumb humming along Tue Dec 03, 2002 14:13

becuase it is now out "secrecy". You may go to the Bodleyian library Oxford University and read yard upon scintillating yard on the embryonic British MI6 bunch funding both sides of the Greek conflict. You may draw connections to the present day... I would, I suggest reading some choice obituaries in the Daily Telegraph.

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Tue Dec 03, 2002 14:14 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

Go on then :)

by iosaf - q Tue Dec 03, 2002 14:17

i wrote in a comment to the present case of Sisifis Greek anarchist imprisoned in a long long case with roots in British Balkan inteference, that the net is out globally for dirty and clean activists.
These men are Irish. If you hate them, so be it.
I am not supporting "the armed struggle", I living in a hispanophone country and well aware of the violence and terror on both sides in the Columbian present, but I am also aware of the special status of Irish passport holders.
Whether you like them or not, they will not recieve a fair trial in Columbia.
Bring them HOME:
heart and mind.

by iosaf Tue Dec 03, 2002 14:21

and so bring the Irish home.
open a debate.
help the Columbian people.
¿with quality Irish know-how?

by Paul S Tue Dec 03, 2002 14:24

This argument which is rolled out time and time again on indymedia is simply flawed. Can noone say anything critical against one group without being accussed of supporting the activities of some other group which has also perpetrated gross injustices.

Point 1. I presume you talk about the US. This argument is pathetic and childish. I wasn't defending the US, and am happy to criticise many aspects of US foreign polciy, this doesn't mean I have to surrender all criticism of other groups.

Point 2. The buying of arms from Ghadaffi is a well-know fact, and has not been disputed by senior republicans in recent year. Where do you think they got the weapons, perhaps they made them themselves in a shed in Kerry. When weapons are siezed it is not difficult to figure out where they came from.

Point 3. Narco terrorists - do I have a source. Again stupid point, do we have to provide a "source" for the words we use. Anyone with any wit, whether they agree with me or not, will take narco-terrorist to mean exactly what it means in the dictionary - terrorists involved in the trade of drugs.

by Phil Tue Dec 03, 2002 14:28

In all honesty, what exactly do you think the guys were doing in Columbia, this is not a loaded question. I would like to hear your opinion.

Seeing as you think the trial is a show trial, this should not stop you speaking you mind on the subject at this moment in time.

by iosaf Tue Dec 03, 2002 14:34

point one: the USA is seriously involved in subverting the democracy of Columbia.

point two: Ghadaffi gave lost of weapons to the IRA they were also well capable of making their own and did so many times. Of the weaponry donated by Libya, the decomissioning comission playing its part in the Irish Peace Process strand 2 de-militarisation process made a very long list of Libyan supplied arms that it wish ed to see put out of use.
SAM I believe was the key acronym there.
surface to Air missiles, bits of hardware that were never really used anyway.
The demilitarisation focus in the Irish peace process did not place a extra special emphasis on mortar tubes or any other type of weapon anyone can make in their garden shed.

point three:
narco-terrorism is not in your dictionary.
it is a jargon term used by different groupings and political agencies. In Columbia everyone is involved in drugs. And almost everyone is affected by the war. Drugs are the cashcrop of Columbia. goto the CIA factbook in my link list above and see the economic indicators for that country.
and I shall later post a breakdown of CIA asistance in the supply of drug hardware and their support / negligence in stopping the Cartels of the late 1980s and 1990s.

Thousands of Europeans have now been addicted to Crack Cocaine. Do I need to point out that Mumia and the black panthers would not have been destroyed were it not for the sytematic flooding of afro-american ghettos in the USA by heroin?
Do I need to tell you that Ireland both north and south was also along with Scotland subject to such inteference?
Do I need to list my dead?
because some day I will.
The narco-terrorists are in Virginia and Washington and London.
These 3 men are Irish. Bring the home.
Try them in Ireland. but get your facts straight and your terminology right.

by iosaf correcting himself Tue Dec 03, 2002 14:41

look at the photos in COLOR magazine 50.
think about Mountjoy / Portlaoise.
Doesn´t Ireland have political prisons for political prisoners?
does anyone here have evidence against these prisoners? I read of flawed logic, and begin to think of the principles of Jurisprudence.
I prefer Irish jurisprudence to Columbian.
HEART and MIND.

by Blisset Tue Dec 03, 2002 14:42

Much more at www.narconews.com

Bring them home -

by justice for all Tue Dec 03, 2002 14:45

I honestly think it would be impossible for these men to get a fair trial anywhere in the world, with the media coverage they have already gotten. At a very minimum, IMO, all people accused of crimes in another country, should be given the opportunity to opt to serve thir sentences in their homeland. This should be a basic human right. I know little of Colombia but what I do know leads me to doubt that it could be considered a democracy in any real sense of the word. Maybe the EU or the International Court of Human Rights should have a mandate to intervene in such cases? Innocence or guilt are not the issue in this case but the question of justice being done.

Indymedia contributors should try to put aside the fact that these lads may have associations with SF and think of the bigger picture.Justice is a basic human right and anyone remotely progressive should uphold the right to a fair trial

by iosaf Tue Dec 03, 2002 14:48

source CIA world fact book.

illicit producer of coca, opium poppies, and cannabis; world's leading coca cultivator (cultivation of coca in 2000 - 136,200 hectares, an 11% increase over 1999); potential production of opium since 1995 has remained relatively stable at 66 metric tons; potential production of heroin has averaged 6.5 metric tons; the world's largest processor of coca derivatives into cocaine; supplier of about 90% of the cocaine to the US and the great majority of cocaine to other international drug markets, and an important supplier of heroin to the US market; active aerial eradication program

Columbia is party to several international and transnational judicial agreements.

For the sake of PEACE
for the sake of JUSTICE
for the sake of IRELAND´s candle on the windowsill
for the sake of IRELAND´s future victims of CRACK
for the sake of IRELAND´s role in the world.
BRING THEM HOME!

by pedant Tue Dec 03, 2002 14:51

Or is it ColOmbia, the country, you mean.

by iosaf Tue Dec 03, 2002 14:54

I´m typing really quickly working on Gallicia oil spill, which is for us in Barcelona a higher priority.
But RTE fielded the Columbia 3 story this morning with very dodgey Oxon. advice by telephone.
if I qoute "the judicial system is continental like .....[dumb humm oxon yawn] France"
bullshit.
The Columbian judicial system is based on Spanish law 1810, with a US based update 1992-1993.
not a whiff of the Napoleonic code at all.
"RTE´s Oxford expert".

by iosaf (the dyslexic bad speller) Tue Dec 03, 2002 14:56

the presence of IVY league uni graduates in Latin America is well sourced.
see an article on the irish at local indymedia here:
and pedant you´re not a wanker I´m a bad speller.

by iosaf Tue Dec 03, 2002 15:00

several originate from Colombia.
there you go a link to the Gallicia thing.
by the way please see that all of these threads work together.
Colombia though not an oil produving country is an oil exporting state. Drugs+Oil+Tabacco+Coffee
a civil war.
CIA DEA FBI
BAT (British American TAbacco) those of the Ken Clarke bunch who using false travel documentation travelled through both rebel zones, smuggling non taxed cigarettes into and out of Columbia.
source. UK parliament select comitee on Tabacco.

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Tue Dec 03, 2002 15:01 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

"In all honesty, what exactly do you think the guys were doing in Columbia, this is not a loaded question."

I'm going to accept your claim that this is not a loaded question at face value. I'll make two points.

1. It is not for me, or indeed for the men, to explain why they were in Columbia or what they were doing there. It is for the prosecution and the State to prove that they were doing something illegal. If we accept, and I deeply hope you do, the principle that people are innocent until proven guilty by a fair trial, then similarly, we accept that the burden of proof is on the prosecution.

2. Personally, I believe the three men were there to observe the Columbian Peace Process. Former republican prisoners have travelled to literally dozens of conferences, countries, meetings etc. to discuss conflict resolution, peace processes and similar issues. It's not at all unusual.

by Paul S Tue Dec 03, 2002 15:15

Point 1. "the USA is seriously involved in subverting the democracy of Columbia" fine, well done,what is your point? I never disputed this. As I said before, I was not defending the US

Point 2. "Of the weaponry donated by Libya" That was my point, the IRA got arms off Libya, you asked me to prove it, as if you didn't believe me, and now you admit that there was a link. Your argument is disjointed and sporadic.

Point 3. "narco-terrorism is not in your dictionary". Yes it is, many dictionaries include jargon. This is an issue of semantics anyway, and is in no way relevant to the argument. Arguing over dictionary definitions is stupid anyway, the meaning of what I was saying was quite clear.

Point 4. "Thousands of Europeans have now been addicted to Crack Cocaine" This is stupid, you present these silly sound bites as if I in some way disagree with these obvious statements.

Point 5. "The demilitarisation focus in the Irish peace process did not place a extra special emphasis on mortar tubes or any other type of weapon anyone can make in their garden shed."
How do you manage so easily to insert such irrelavent bullshyt into an argument. What are you on about, deal with the substanive issue instead of prattling on and heading off on wild tangents.

by Phil Tue Dec 03, 2002 15:28

Justin, you say "It is for the prosecution and the State to prove that they were doing something illegal" This is fine, and all legal systems are based on this premise. But Sinn Fein support the Bring them Home campaign, and don't want to see them stand trial anywhere for the alleged crimes.

Why also did Sinn Fein not admit that the men were associated with them from the outset. Surely this would have bolstered their claim that they were political observers.

Why also the need for false passports? Why carry out such a risky journey, when observation of the Columbian peace process could be carried out in a much safer manner? Is it just a coincidence that two of the men are engineering experts, rather than principally policital representative? My understanding of the Columbian peace process is that FARC are only interested in escalating their campaign of terrorism? Surely going their as guests of FARC gives out the message that Sinn Fein are in someway sympathetic to their activities?

While I'm sure you have your own answers for these questions, they are surely legitimate questions to ask.

by Paul S Tue Dec 03, 2002 15:44

From dictionary.com

1 entry found for narco-terrorism.
nar·co·ter·ror·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (närk-tr-rzm)
n.
Terrorism carried out to prevent interference with or divert attention from illegal narcotics trafficking

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Tue Dec 03, 2002 16:03 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

“"It is for the prosecution and the State to prove that they were doing something illegal" This is fine, and all legal systems are based on this premise.”

There seems to be some doubt as to whether the non-jury Columbian system is based on this principle. Senior politicians, up to the President, have described them as guilty. Similar statements in any western European country would mean their release and deportation as the trial would be prejudiced.

“But Sinn Fein support the Bring them Home campaign, and don't want to see them stand trial anywhere for the alleged crimes.”

Only one country can try them, Columbia. We don’t believe they can get a fair trial in Columbia, a belief shared not just by the campaign but by many of the world’s leading human rights organisations and whats left of the Columbian human rights organisations. Therefore, we believe since they can’t be given a fair trial they should be deported and released.

“Why also did Sinn Fein not admit that the men were associated with them from the outset. Surely this would have bolstered their claim that they were political observers.”

It certainly would have done but quite simply, the party wasn’t aware. The initial accusation was that all three were SF members. We denied this saying none of them were members. As the story unfolded it became clear two were former members. As for Niall Connolly no-one in Sinn Fein had heard of him at first, especially when he was supposed to be from Dublin. We’d all heard of or met the others.

Media reports persisted however and an internal inquiry discovered that a senior member of the party has asked Niall to serve as a party representative in Cuba but had not informed other members of the party leadership of this. Niall honestly believed he was a party representative. SF didn’t. We were wrong. I know it sounds ridiculous and it looks like we lied and then were caught out and frankly, even I would have difficulty believing it if I didn’t know that first of all it’s the truth, and second of all, if we had known he was our rep in Cuba from the start, we would have also known it was impossible to lie about it in a high profile media case like this. We would be found out and the situation would be far worse. Much better, in that scenario, to come clean right away. Anyone who handles PR can tell you that. When ‘caught’, come clean. We didn’t know we were caught so we ended up looking like liars and Niall ended up in deep shit.

“Why also the need for false passports?”

Latin America is an extremely dangerous place, especially for two men known as republicans and who may or may not be monitored by the security forces of other countries. Since they may well be meeting people who are also monitored by security forces they may not wish to reveal their identity and put themselves in danger. They fully accept that they broke the law in this matter.

“Why carry out such a risky journey, when observation of the Columbian peace process could be carried out in a much safer manner?”

Not sure I get this. Surely the best way to observe a Peace Process is to go to the country where the process exists.

“Is it just a coincidence that two of the men are engineering experts, rather than principally policital representative?”

Two of the men are ex-prisoners and have worked on ex-prisoner and conflict resolution matters. Might that have more to do with it?

“My understanding of the Columbian peace process is that FARC are only interested in escalating their campaign of terrorism?”

Frankly I’m no big fan of FARC myself, but the last time they put away the guns and went into a peaceful political process 3,000 of their activists were murdered. The overwhelming majority of deaths suffered during the conflict were at the hands of the military and right-wing Death Squads. FARC tried the peaceful political and got butchered. Any wonder it might be harder to get them to do it again?

“Surely going their as guests of FARC gives out the message that Sinn Fein are in someway sympathetic to their activities?”

There is no proof that the men are guests of FARC and they most certainly were not representing Sinn Fein on their visit or in their contacts.

“While I'm sure you have your own answers for these questions, they are surely legitimate questions to ask.”

They are perfectly legitimate questions to ask and I think it’s good to ask them. What pisses me off are people who instantly assume that they’re guilty because they’re republicans or because the newspaper tells them. (Reminds me of the Yank hymn ‘I know Jesus loves me because the Bible tells me so’ – ‘I know the Columbia 3 are guilty because Jim Cusack tells me so’) You might read my answers, study the issues, and still decide they’re guilty, but at least you looked into it and asked questions. I’d also suggest attending some of the many meetings held in Dublin and around the country to talk to family members of campaign workers for further information.

by Paul S Tue Dec 03, 2002 16:25

"they most certainly were not representing Sinn Fein on their visit or in their contacts"

Surely this makes the cliam that they were on some sort of exploratory trip to find out about the peace process all the more dubious.

I'm happy to look at the facts, but the notion that they were, on their own bat, carring out this trip to educate themselves about the peace process strikes me as having less credibility than the claim that they were helping to train terrorists (although I look forward to hearing the evidence that is presented)

You suggest that these guys funded this mission themselves, made contact with FARC, and then chose to hide all this by using false passports (which they presumably got without any involvement or sanction from the IRA) just out of personal altruistic interest. Surely what anyone does first before going on such a trip is to get sponsorship/legitimacy from some recogonised political group who can in turn benefit from the information upon their return. I know you'll disagree but the only options I can see are 1. these men are incredibly naive and profoundly stupid or 2. the carried out the trip to pass on their knowledge with either the tacid or explicit consent of the IRA army council and on the invitation of FARC

I do not believe that these men are at all stupid, infact I suspect that they are all very bright.

by Paul S Tue Dec 03, 2002 16:36

I simply cannot accept that three bright men would travel in FARC territory without their explicit consent and active support. It would be a death wish. We all know what the group are capable of and their record of kidnapping and murder.

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Tue Dec 03, 2002 16:55 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

1. You suggest the fact that they were not representing SF makes their claim to be on a trip to explore the Peace Process more dubious. Frankly, I don't follow the logic here. SF is not the only organisation involved in the Peace Process, nor is it the only republican organisation involved in it. There are, for example, a multitude of ex-prisoner organisations working as part of the Process, one of which Monaghan worked for. Much as we might occasionally appear the fulcrum about which the Process swings, we're not. ;)

2. As for how they funded their visit, I don't know how they did it, and unless those funds come from an illegal source, an accusation not made by the prosecution, it's not relevant.

3. As for haviny Army Council approval, the Army has stated on two separate occasions that no-one was sent by the Army Council to Columbia. In the abscence of evidence contradicting this and on the basis of past history of IRA statements, i accept this. You may not.

4. As for travelling in FARC territory being impossible without FARC approval and support, a wide variety of people, including the Queen of Jorden, the deputy head of the NYSE, Mo Mowlam and other visited FARC territory. Being in FARC territory does not indicate support for, membership of or sympathy with FARC. Unless it's got friends in very unusual places.

by pat c Tue Dec 03, 2002 17:33

paul s believes that catholics in the north have a higher unemployment rate because they are lazy and drink too much. he is also a rather nasty zionist.

by Paul S Tue Dec 03, 2002 17:48

Pat I think nothing of the sort. It was obviously joke, maybe not very funny, but shouldn't be rehashed and misrepresented hear to score some petty political point

by Paul S Tue Dec 03, 2002 17:51

If your going to call me a nasty zionist please outline exactly what I said to warrent such a slur a provide a link to wheren I said it. You won't because your just interested in propaganda and name calling (you complete gobshite)

by pat c Tue Dec 03, 2002 18:45

if you are going to call me a gobshite then please outline what i said to deserve such abuse!
your zionism (of a nasty variety) is proved by your comments on the palestinian threads.

so your remarks about drunken catholics were a joke? if anyone had made a comment about jews counting their shekels & living as usurers would you have taken it as a joke?

by Aidan Tue Dec 03, 2002 18:53

While we're rehashing sense of humour comments, I can't help notice you're selective about when and what is funny?

Remember your "joke" about attacking an imc meeting with machetes?

Obviously, to you, a joke.

And now it seems you left your sense of humour in your other trousers today.

This should be taken as meaning I approve of what either Paul S or Pat C said in passing, or how they said it, I'd just like Pat to show a little consistence.

Aidan
-Course it could just be the way Pat tells 'em.-

by pat c Tue Dec 03, 2002 19:31

as i asked you at the time: did you take rays comments about human sacrifice seriously?

are you now suggesting that anti-semitic & anti-catholic jokes are welcome on indymedia?

by pat c Tue Dec 03, 2002 19:52

i thought you weren't going 2 communicate with me again?

why are you obsessed with me?

could this be love? (or just infatuation?)

by As do many many other ghosts Tue Dec 03, 2002 19:56

Meanwhile here is a real horror story that gives an insight into Colombia and what it actually is which is a laboratory for the supression of mass dissent

by Tom Sullivan Tue Dec 03, 2002 21:01

To anybody located outside of Ireland who has stumbled across this website, please know that the majority of Irish people do not want the 3 terrorists in Columbia to get off. We are sick of terrorism on this island and active agents like these scum are NOT welcome back.

by iosaf psiphi. - all i do is threads. Tue Dec 03, 2002 21:26 us at our dot net barcelona saying NEVER AGAIN to Oil spills.

............"For the record and just to be smug
by Paul S Tue, Dec 3 2002, 2:44pm

From dictionary.com

1 entry found for narco-terrorism.
nar·co·ter·ror·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (närk-tr-rzm)
n.
Terrorism carried out to prevent interference with or divert attention from illegal narcotics trafficking"

you do good smug.
and I was sporadic all over the place.
usually am.
tangent man myself.

I also think that the Irish debate on "närk-tr-rzm" would be best served by bringing them back to Ireland.
It doesn´t matter what passports they were arrested because they are being charged as citizens of a neutral state.

for the "foreigners"
addressed by T. Sulivan.
to start RTE this morning

Charlie Bird, Chief News Correspondent, reports from Bogota
28k - http://www.rte.ie/news/2002/1203/morningireland/morningireland1a.ram

Malcolm Deeze of the Latin American Centre at Oxford University
discusses
the issue of a fair trial
28k -
oxford university bod hums dumbly in a MI6 way.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2002/1203/morningireland/morningireland1b.ram

well I would follow with this site;
cia columbia

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/co.html
uincef columbia
http://www.unicef.org/statis/Country_1Page37.html
parties to the conflict.
http://www.web.net/eln/News/news.html
bbc on FARC.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1746777.stm
bbc on AUC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1746943.stm
human rights watch on Columbia.
http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/colombia/

note hjow out of date most of the BBC info is.
dumbly humming.

related link: columbia.indymedia.org

add your comments

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENTS
http://colombia.indymedia.org/

and think about your countries protection of it´s citizens whether resident or not, and youre countries constitutional obligations to protect and ensure fair trial for its citizens.

by colombia exports Oil - and tobacco and coca Tue Dec 03, 2002 21:32 imarsat 6 channels and lots really lots of TV. has lots a realy modern system.

Irish citizens once they leave don´t get candles.
Irish citizens once they leave don´t get SFA.
less than how much space of "your national / international media space?".
So I´m distracting your attention again from the main issuues of the day.
Oil War $ Drugs Terror and Lies.
The wonderful people of "craggy island" [you clever man Graham] now have the opportunity to do something extra special and international.
Test the Lies in a international lie war drug terror oil zone.
¿Aren´t ye all wetting your pants?

by ipsiphi Tue Dec 03, 2002 21:37

Oil lots of it. Black Sea.
Drugs. extra security in the western atlantic fleet zone.
Lies. oh never. Sr. President (Of Gallicia autonomy [exFranco minister] M. Fraga..."we have seen the worst"......."2and a half weeks ago"

hmmm
same week that Mr Nixon decides to support the independent inquiry into Sept 11.

Do you still have the Irish sense of humour back there?

HelloNeutral Ireland?
go to page one of this website and read about another Irish "one of your nation".
Bring them home if you wish to punish them.
why not?
yes indeed

...¿why not?

by As do many many other ghosts Tue Dec 03, 2002 22:07

Life as a Trade Unionist in Colombia
Each Year Brings New Miseries
by SARA CIFUENTES ORTIZ

Being a trade unionist in Colombia has become a high-risk occupation and trade unionists frequently have to pay with their own lives. Figures from last year show how critical the situation has become.

Last year, 77 per cent of Colombian workers earned less than two minimum salaries while the family shopping basket cost 2.4 minimum salaries. 153 trade unionists were assassinated, 72 more were reported disappeared and around 10,000 live under the threat of death.

The year 2001 closed on a very negative note, especially for Colombian workers who found themselves under attack from many fronts and saw their stability, security and right to dignified work being snatched away. There was also a serious intensification in the violation of trade union rights.

The situation for workers and the Colombian trade union movement has had a common denominator over the last two years and that has been unemployment. Figures supplied by the CUT (Central Unitaria de Trabajadores--Central Workers Union) and DANE (Departamento Administrativo Nacional de Estadistica--National Statistics Bureau) reveal the highest levels of unemployment in the history of Colombia, with unemployment increasing from 11.9 per cent in 1996 to 19.7 per cent in 2000.

For the year 2001 the figure has hovered between 18.7 per cent and 20 per cent of the economically fully active population. This translates as meaning that a large number of people are not actually included in the statistics. Figures for underemployment in 2001 stood at 34 per cent and the number of people working in the informal sector topped 62 per cent.

As a consequence of increasing unemployment, the level of poverty has also increased and there has been a deterioration in the distribution of wealth. Evidence of this is shown in shocking statistics which reveal that the number of people living in poverty has increased from 20 million in 1996 to almost 23 million in 2001.

According to figures produced by the National Planning Board, 77 per cent of workers earn less than two minimum salaries and the family shopping basket costs more than 2.4 minimum salaries. This means that thousands of Colombians are not receiving adequate nutrition, many have had to take their children out of education and hundreds more families have no access to health care.

Trade Unions Under Attack

80 per cent of the workers dismissed in 2001 belonged to a trade union The percentage of workers affiliating to trade unions, according to the CUT, has declined from 8 per cent in 1998 to around 5.5 per cent in 2001. This situation is attributed to the fact that people's right of association is violated, there are massive dismissals of trade union affiliated workers, 'voluntary' redundancy agreements, company liquidations, extermination campaigns against trade unions, assassinations, persecution, death threats and attacks on trade union leaders, etc.

Between 1991 and 2001, more than 195 trade union organisations were dissolved and in the same period of time, more than 356 trade unions went into recess. In other words, today there are 100,061 trade union members and 541 trade union organisations fewer than in years prior to 1991.

In 1990 a law was passed which introduced substantial reforms into the labour market in order, it was said, to generate employment. These reforms included reducing labour costs and making labour more flexible.

Paradoxically, the law actually increased unemployment, the economic conditions of workers deteriorated, their job security was undermined with dismissal a constant threat and they saw the foundations of a maquila system of labour being laid. Suddenly changes were being made to the working day and the working week, job security was disappearing, the trade union movement was being weakened and salaries were being reduced in real terms.

Law 100, passed in 1993, introduced the privatisation of the health service which brought with it a deterioration in public health as the network of state hospitals disappeared. Today there are 600 public health establishments that are financially bankrupt and cannot honour their obligations to the people, and in particular to the workers.

Solidarity and Human Rights

In 2001 violations of human rights increased with the implementation of policies which eroded people's fundamental rights.

The mining workers denounced that the new Mining Code was not only damaging to workers in this sector but also opened the doors to the deadly curse of paramilitarism, as they were forced into a position of having to fight for their rights. The same situation happened with the teachers who recently opposed law 012 which reduced government funding to municipalities and as a consequence reduced the amount of money available for the education and health sectors. Their opposition to this law increased the number of assassinations of members of the teachers and health workers' unions.

The government did not take seriously the very grave human rights situation affecting trade unionists in Colombia and did not make any real commitment to fight against paramilitaries who are responsible for the vast majority of the assassinations of trade union leaders. Indeed the participation of the state in certain of these crimes has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, not least in the case of the attempt on the life of Fenaltralse union leader, Wilson Borja, to mention but one incidence.

As for trade union activity, the year 2001 was exemplary, in that tremendous efforts were made to create unity and strengthen the struggle. The case of Funtrammetal and Fedepetrol is a good example. These federations united under the new name of Funtraenergetico and the new organisation includes oil workers, miners, metallurgists, electricians, metal workers and car construction workers. Over the year and while this unification process was underway, 11 of their members were assassinated.

Likewise, the end of 2001 saw the unification of ATT and Sittelecom which became the Sindicato Unico de Trabajadores de las Communicaciones and brought renewed strength to the struggle to defend the the country's telecommunications industries.

The year saw a number of strikes and stoppages, such as the 71 day strike at Bavaria, the Red Cross strike and the 10-day strike by the workers at Drummond. The oil workers' union (USO), and the teachers' union (FECODE) also organised various strikes and stoppages over the year. There was also the badly hit National Agrarian Strike.

In spite of all the human rights violations of all kinds perpetrated against workers and their trade union organisations through the year, which resulted in 153 trade union leaders assassinated, 72 disappeared, 27 who very nearly died after being attacked with firearms and 10,000 who were threatened, workers and their union have remained steadfast in the defence of their rights and have not lost heart even knowing that they are risking their lives.

Being a trade unionist has become a high-risk occupation and trade unionists frequently have to pay with their own lives.

Sara Cifuentes Ortiz writes for Voz. (Translation courtesy of the Colombia Peace Association)

by Aidab Wed Dec 04, 2002 01:12

I'm taking nothing seriously...Aside from this

Accept the fact that you've loudly boasted about your williness and eagerness to use violence againist people whose politics you disagree with.

And then attacked me for pulling you on your "joke" about using twin machetes againist Indymedia Ireland, a group who you claim are anti everything you hold dear.

And then I've idly wondered how all this ties into your outrage on an joke made at the expense of your politics.

And then you meander into making snide comments about my love for you. Avoiding the honest question here. A classic tactic of yours, avoid the question by attacking the politics (and in this case sexuality) of the person asking them.

Pat I hate to break your heart (and save my girlfriend's) that I'm not in love with you, but you've tried (again) to dance away from another awkward question, by turning them againist me, the simple fact is you've claimed humour as an excuse for your comments, and then attacked the obviously tongue in cheek comment from someone who's politics you disagreee with.

What's the word for applying one rule of law to yourself and another to another

Starts with an "F" and ends with a "ism"

Finally Pat, I'm neither accepting any kind of humour which is anti anything, but if ypu're bothered to take the comments in context you're grasp the contents of "irony". . Finally Patr as someone who's expressed their williness to use violence to support their goals, and williness to use violence againist indymedia, I'd like to ask you this question "is it acceptable to use violence againist people whos' politics you dislike?

by pat c Wed Dec 04, 2002 11:44

"Sorry Pat
by Aidab Wed, Dec 4 2002, 12:12am

I'm taking nothing seriously...Aside from this

Accept the fact that you've loudly boasted about your williness and eagerness to use violence againist people whose politics you disagree with."

no aidan, you are twisting things as usual. when i was accused of being an armchair activist, i pointed out that i had physically defended pro choice events against youth defence attack & had driven off racists who were attacking an anti-racist event. i have also clashed with a southern loyalist who thought it was tough to hassle children running a republican stall.

"And then attacked me for pulling you on your "joke" about using twin machetes againist Indymedia Ireland, a group who you claim are anti everything you hold dear. "

why do you harp on about this? did you really think i was serious? AGAIN I ASK: DID YOU THINK RAY WAS SERIOUS WHEN HE SUGGESTED SATANIC HUMAN SACRIFICE?

"And then I've idly wondered how all this ties into your outrage on an joke made at the expense of your politics."

if that "joke" had been made in similar terms about jews you would have (quite rightly) had it deleted as soon as possible.

the fact that you think jokes about drunken lazy catholics in the north acceptable says something about your mindset.

"And then you meander into making snide comments about my love for you. Avoiding the honest question here. A classic tactic of yours, avoid the question by attacking the politics (and in this case sexuality) of the person asking them. "

you keep on saying that you're not going to communicate with me again , yet you always do. its a long time since i initiated a debate with you.

how am i avoiding the question?

i'm not, nor have i ever attacked anyones sexuality. as i am bisexual, it would be a bit odd for me to do so.

i think you must be suffering from a persecution complex.

"Pat I hate to break your heart (and save my girlfriend's) that I'm not in love with you, but you've tried (again) to dance away from another awkward question, by turning them againist me, the simple fact is you've claimed humour as an excuse for your comments, and then attacked the obviously tongue in cheek comment from someone who's politics you disagreee with."

ah good, i feared i was breaking your heart, mine is pledged to another ( no i'm not an organ donor).

again i find it very strange that you would find such a "joke" about catholics humourous. i doubt if you would have found an anti-semitic "joke" acceptable.

"What's the word for applying one rule of law to yourself and another to another

Starts with an "F" and ends with a "ism""

hmmm, actually you are the one who applies double standards.

"Finally Pat, I'm neither accepting any kind of humour which is anti anything, but if ypu're bothered to take the comments in context you're grasp the contents of "irony"."

would abti-semitic "jokes" be accepted as irony by imc?

" . Finally "

thats the second time you used finally.

"Patr as someone who's expressed their williness to use violence to support their goals, and williness to use violence againist indymedia, I'd like to ask you this question "is it acceptable to use violence againist people whos' politics you dislike? "

i have never expressed a desire to use vioence against indymedia, you know the machettes comment was a joke & even in that context was directed at those who had threatened to knock me sideways.

certain people on indymedia made threats against me (you never objected to this), i suggested they make themselves known & say it to my face.

i believe its acceptable to use violence against fascists.

if youth defence attack pro choice events, then i believe it is correct to use defensive & retalitory violence agaiunst them.

if i find southern loyalists bullying children, then the southern loyalists will regret it.

if i am threatened or attacked by someone then i will use violence against them if necessary.

i hope this clarifies matters for you.

by iosaf = o as if Wed Dec 04, 2002 12:19

1.Trial of three Irish men in Colombia adjourned
--------------------------------------------------
Radio Telefis Éirinn
the state broadcaster of the Republic of Ireland wakes the Irish people with these news items.
4th -----December------------2002
--------------
trial is presently adjourned.

Catriona Ruane, of the Bring Them Home campaign, comments on the trial
28k - http://www.rte.ie/news/2002/1204/morningireland/morningireland1a.ram

Charlie Bird, Chief News Correspondent, reports from Bogota
28k - http://www.rte.ie/news/2002/1204/morningireland/morningireland1b.ram

Bring them Home.
Bring Columbia´s debate to the Republic of Ireland.
........Yes to encourageing features on Columbia!
but I walk on glass here, as do we all, this is not only difficult for Irish people living in Ireland north or south or the USA or Columbia, this is difficult for anyone who lives in a spanish speaking country. Catalúnya speaks very good Spanish.
=============Bring the Home.

by Ray Mon Dec 09, 2002 10:33

Pat C
by Sabre Sat, Dec 7 2002, 1:53pm
Bigotry
"i said the protestant working class were slaves to an imperialist ideology." - Pat C.

"i said the protestant working class were slaves to an imperialist ideology." - Pat C.
This must rank as one of the most sectarian and bigoted statements ever to be made by someone who claims to be on the left. But then if you read through Pat C's comments on the North it is a theme that runs through all of his contributions. In essense Pat C believes that the protestant working class are part of the "problem", and the enemy of left republicans like himself.
The political beliefs and fears of all working class people in the North are a legacy of the conscious role of British Imperialism. Pat C accepts that the sectarian divisions amongst the working class in the North cannot be overcome. That the protestant working class must be combatted. This is the logic of his argument. In the last analysis Pat C stands for a Nationalist dominated united Ireland and if needs be against the wishes of protestant workers. I assume that Pat C would be in favour of achieving this aim through force i.e., by civil war and the massacre of thousands of protestants. He has used terms like ethnic cleansing and Bosnian style solutions in his previous contributions. But Pat C's politics would lead precisely to a Bosnian type civil war, tens of thousands of deaths and the defeat of the working class and the re-partition of the island into two military dictatorships. Fortunately for all of us the working class have more sense that to follow this type of doomsday politics. The only others who have a similar view are the Real IRA.

add your comments

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENTS
Wild Ginger
by St. Patrick Sat, Dec 7 2002, 9:49pm

He leaned over and said, 'Take off your shirt.'

'No. Why?'

'I hunger only for you.'

I began to laugh. 'Go chew Mao quotations! Fill your stomach with them. Come on! Chairman Mao teaches us. . . '

'"A thousand years is too long, seize the moment."' He grabbed me. 'Chairman Mao also teaches us, "A revolution is an insurrection, an act of violence by which one class overthrows another."'

'Chairman Mao again teaches us' - I put down the buns and wrestled with him - '"The situation must change. It is the task of the people of the whole world to put an end to the aggression and oppression perpetrated by imperialism."'

He went wild. '"If the US monopoly capitalist groups persist in pushing their policies of aggression and war, the day is bound to come when they will be hanged by the people of the whole world."' I could feel my body blooming. I was unable to continue the reciting. 'Don't you stop, Maple! Show your faith in Chairman Mao! Demonstrate your loyalty! Page one hundred fifty-six. "Speech at the Moscow Meeting of Communist and Workers' Parties." Come on now!'

'"It is my opinion,"' I began, '"that the international situation has now reached a new turning point."' I stopped, my thoughts suddenly scattered - the pleasure was too overwhelming.

'Go on, Maple, go on. "There are two winds in the world today"' - he caressed me, his hands cupping my breasts from behind - '"the East Wind and the West Wind. There is a Chinese saying, Either the East Wind prevails over the West Wind or the West Wind prevails over the East Wind."'

We were breathless. He insisted we continue reciting. I tasted his sweat as I went on. '"It is characteristic of the situation today that the East Wind is prevailing over the West Wind. That is to say, the forces of socialism have become overwhelmingly superior to the forces of imperialism. . . "'

Our bodies came together again. . .

He groaned, 'Oh! Chairman Mao!'

Who gives a shit.
by Kevin Sat, Dec 7 2002, 10:00pm

Who gives a shit if Pat C thinks in such a bigoted ignorant way. The guys views should be respected as the opinion of a pathetic individual who needs everybody to hear his insignifigant opinions. Who is Pat C? Apart from somebody who spends to much time posting on this site spreading his intolerant rant. What organisations does he belong too? Pat C is gonna love when he sees "Pat C" on the newswire, it gives the false impression that people care about his sectairean opinion. So dont bother. Just leave the guy rant!

New age of loyalism
by ***** ***probably the best war in the world Sat, Dec 7 2002, 11:16pm

Come on now the loyalist community isn't that guillible, there is no such person as Pat c. Even working class loyalist communities are waking up to whats going on. The tables are turning with loyalist and republican community workers joining forces, uniting and working together for the good of both working class communities. As the PUP says no one paramilitary group has a monopoly on sectarian murders, apart from the LVF and johnny adair who would continue carrying out sectarian/political assasinations on behalf of their PSNI handlers, if they still could, given half the chance and if the UDA welcomed them back into the fold.But Untouchable cold blooded murdering blood thirsty halions like PSNI proteges johnny adair and the LVF must never be allowed to raise their ghoulish heads in the loyalist community again. In recent months we've watched as the UDA has embraced progressive politics, exorcising their demons/johnny adair and the LVF. These acts are to be commended and i feel sure with renewed cooperation between working class loyalist and republican community workers the serious threat to the well being of both working class republican and loyalist communities posed by smack pushing vice warlord johnny adair and his murdering LVF chums can be sorted out and dealt with accordingly.

add your comments

by pat c Mon Dec 09, 2002 16:59

well, then, connolly, lenin, trotsky & the comintern were all sectarian as well they believed this.

the communist international supported the republican side during the civil war & called on them to conquer the 6 counties by a military invasion.

as usual the fools here try & turn reality on its head. it is the loyalists who are ethnically cleansing catholics.

pity the sp are carrying on their attack under pseuynoms.