Socialist Party at Forum for Peace and Reconciliation

by IMC Dalek Fri Nov 29, 2002 15:31

to support the Orange Orders "right" to march down the Lower Ormeau Road over the broken and bleeding bodies of the Catholics who have been batoned by the RUC/PSNI to clear a path for the jaffas.

The Socialist Party know that this is the only way an Orange march is going to go down the road. But every year they support it. I suppose they see the RUC/PSNI as Workers in Uniform.

by OK - SP Fri Nov 29, 2002 16:00

We see it as a great opportunity to raise our ideas on the north and the national question. The people in the room dont really care about what the SP representative says there (just like in the Dail). But it raises profile of socialist ideas on the national question.

The same for the Forum on Europe we participated in.

by Durutti Column Fri Nov 29, 2002 16:04

- But it raises profile of socialist ideas on the national question. -

To be more accurate, OK - SP, should admit , it allows them to raise National Socialist ideas.
Such as supporting the Orange marchs.

by William Stobie Fri Nov 29, 2002 16:05

Maybe the SP should bring up this nugget of Party Policy at the Forum.

i Don't Know but i'm beginning to become a cynic? The socialist party recently in support of a DUP motion wanted Queens University to stop the naming of a Bursary after Pat Finucane.
He may have been a Human Rights Lawyer. He may have bee killed by a loyalist murder gang. But the socialist Party thinks he shouldn't be remembered. Maybe they think this might affect British Army recruitment considering the Brits collusion with the murderers of Pat Finucane.

by Finghin - Socialist Party Fri Nov 29, 2002 16:14

The forum is only a talking shop, just like the Dáil in reality.

The forum like the European forum will get some coverage in the media. It does give a platform for our ideas on the national question. Why should we not go to it?

by Finghin - Socialist Party Fri Nov 29, 2002 16:18

For anyone that is genuine and are actually interested in our position on the national question, below is a copy of the speech Joe Higgins gave to the Forum on wednesday.

__________________________________
Speech given by Joe Higgins TD, on behalf of the Socialist Party

The Socialist Party welcomes this opportunity to outline the socialist analysis of the problems in Northern Ireland, to outline a critique of the forces, which currently dominate political life there, and to outline the basis for a radical solution to those problems.

The Socialist Party is organised in the North and has an active membership in the trade union movement, in both communities and among young people. The socialist perspective differs fundamentally from that of the parties of the political establishment and the main parties, which are based exclusively, on one side or other of the sectarian divide.

The machinations of British imperial power left a grim legacy of sectarian division on this island and a legacy also of areas in the North of acute poverty, low pay and disgraceful housing conditions and discrimination presided over for decades by an extreme right wing unionist establishment. The republican paramilitary campaign, which drew support from sections of the Catholic population because of these issues, was counterproductive in every way. It heightened tensions and contributed to a widening sectarian polarisation between the communities. After two decades the Republican leadership concluded, correctly, that they could not succeed and their ceasefire, when called, was long overdue.

The Good Friday Agreement (GFA) was then supposed to provide the basis for a political settlement in the North. The support for the Agreement North and South in its early days reflected a deep aspiration for peace among a big majority of people on this island.

The GFA however, could never be a basis for a solution to the problems and divisions. Far from seeking to resolve sectarian division, the GFA institutionalised it. It provided structures within which the main political parties in the North could continue to corral their voters into sectarian camps in order to maintain electoral support.

Sectarian based political parties on the one hand and two right wing Governments on the other, do not have either the desire or the capability to provide a lasting solution. They have no answer to the grim economic conditions and social problems, which afflict both Catholic and Protestant working class communities, or to the deep-seated fears and insecurities felt in both communities.

Among Protestants there is the feeling that in the political, cultural and territorial tug of war, they are losing out. The demographic trends in the 2001 Census, to be revealed soon, will deepen this sense of foreboding. The figures are expected to show that for the first time the Protestant population is not an absolute majority and that the number of Catholics together with those describing themselves as 'others' may be equal with the trend going in an unmistakeable direction. The results of last year's Westminster election bear out these trends.

By the way, anybody who believes that, to put it crudely, Catholics out-breeding Protestants lays the basis for a United Ireland on the basis of the present capitalist system is living in a fool's paradise.

Even if the Protestant population was in a minority in the North there would be as much chance of it being reconciled to a United Ireland dominated by right-wing nationalist parties as there was of the Catholic minority being reconciled to British rule. If that line is seriously pushed, you will finish up with the horrors of Bosnia - not a United Ireland.

But here is the paradox - the Protestant working class feeling they are losing out does not mean that people in the Catholic working class areas have any sense that they have greatly gained. And in truth there has not been a let up in the poverty that blights many working class Catholic communities. Because of this the feeling of the Catholic working class is that they are still second-class citizens forced to accept a regime of low wages, paltry State benefits and poor housing.

The power-sharing Executive utterly failed to address any of these issues. When it came to sectarian questions, Sinn Fein, the SDLP and the Unionist Parties had no shortage of issues to fight over. But there was no division between them when it came to economic policies providing for privatisation in public services including in Health, the roads programme and Education and the continuation of a low wage economy.

The peace process is failing because it has been in the hands of sectarian based politicians and two right wing Governments. Political parties and Governments wedded to capitalist globalisation, dependent on speculators and multinational corporations, pushing policies of privatisation and low wages will never show a way out.
The situation cries out for a real peace process that is not dependent on sectarian parties or right wing Governments. A united movement of working class people Protestant and Catholic rooted in the communities and as fellow workers in the trade unions would be the basis for a real peace process.

In the interface areas, decent people on all sides are weary of the tension and the often nightly sectarian rioting.

There is an urgent need for the many genuine community activists who do try to work for their communities on all sides, along with the trade unions whose members are the victims of this sectarianism, to mobilise communities to stop the nightmare and together to address the issues including the question of sufficient good quality homes for all as much tension arises from the dearth of adequate housing for growing communities.

Despite the polarisation, the hardening of attitudes and the increased sectarian attacks, it is possible for such a movement to emerge.

It was the mass mobilisation of the organised working class, which, in strike action and in mass protests on the streets at critical and dangerous junctures, cut across an increasing orgy of sectarian killings. That was the case in the wake of the Shankill bomb and in the wake of the brutal murder of the young postal worker Danny McColgan when 100,000 working people, Protestant and Catholic, on January 18th this year attended mass rallies against sectarian murders, threats and attacks. (By the way, this is something entirely different from a caravan of politicians from sectarian based political parties coming together outside Belfast City Hall and having the audacity to call this an anti sectarian rally as happened in July).

The fire-fighters strike is showing daily the huge solidarity between workers in the North faced with the right wing Government of Mr Blair that adamantly refuses to pay them a just wage but is prepared to obscenely waste billions in a war on Iraq.

Therefore there are two processes at work in the North. On the one side the sectarian polarisation is deepening. But on the other there is a powerful impetus toward a common struggle on issues of great importance in the lives of workers and not only on economic issues but on both sides people want peace, want to find a way forward, a permanent solution without the ongoing uncertainty, insecurity and sectarianism.

The Socialist Party sees immense possibilities of building on this. There is every possibility to build a powerful movement to combat sectarianism and offer an alternative to the poverty and exploitation that fuels it.

Unfortunately in the political arena the sectarian parties have it all their own way. A new party of the working class based on the ranks of the trade union movement and on genuine grassroots community organisations could offer a real alternative. Uniting working class people against the sectarians both orange and green, it would campaign for a solution based on the common interests of working people and their communities.

Furthermore, we believe that, having regard to the identities of both major communities on this island, a voluntary, free and socialist federation of Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales, with full guarantees of the rights of all can lay the basis for a permanent solution.

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Fri Nov 29, 2002 16:38 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

Sinn Féin did attend so I find the bit at the start a little odd. As for the SP's contribution, they have as much right to be there as anyone else. The Workers Party attended, independent TDs and Senators were represented. The SP has every right to put forward its analysis, just as the other parties have the right to ignore it completely or take it on board in one way or another.

I heard about the Pat Finucane thing last week but didn't want to post about it because SP and republicans were rowing last week anyway but in fairness, it is an odd and disappointing decision unless one factors in the kind of SP people in Queens, when it becomes quoite understandable.

by Finghin - SP Fri Nov 29, 2002 16:45

I don't know much about the details of the situation in Queens.

Personally I would have no problem in honouring Pat Finucane. However this shoould not be done in a sectarian fashion.

by state of War Fri Nov 29, 2002 16:50

So you want to impose a sp nationality on us all then? do we get the ration book with the new passport or do we have to wait untill we have kissed enough party ass??

by Crafty Fri Nov 29, 2002 16:54

What the hell in the world is wrong with the SP going to this forum? I suppose they should just sit at home and twiddle their thumbs while waiting for the glorious revolution?

The idiots who criticised this obviously have a problem with talking and exchange of ideas. Can I remind you that there are no laws or decisions being made at the castle, so any anti-parliament stuff is not going to make a difference here.

But I suppose if you just believe in the words and works of whoever your hero happens to be, you don't need to discuss things like the North anyway, seeing as you are already right.

So keep waiting for the rest of the world to come around to your way of thinking. Stay afraid of a forum. I'm not the SP's biggest fan but these comments are just plain stupid.

@**@

by Pat c Fri Nov 29, 2002 17:01

How could there be a "sectarian" way of honouring Pat Finucane?

He was murdered by sectarian loyalist paramilitaries with the aid of "workers in uniform" in british military intelligence.

its not good enough for finghin to say he doesn't know whats happening in QUB.

Answer the question: is it your recruiting sergeant at work again, this time blocking with the DUP?

by Finghin - SP Fri Nov 29, 2002 17:28

I am sick of having to answer these lies from you, pat c. Why do you continually have a go at the SP, what is it? You know you are deliberatly distorting the facts. Is it some personal grudge against a member or something?

You know very well that an issue such as honouring Pat Finucane can be raised in a very sectarian manner.

Why do you think I should know the minute details of what is going on in QUB? I've never been in Queen's I've never met any of our members there. I amnke no apologies for not knowing the full details.

Do you know exactly what is going on in the Sf branch in Claremorris? Of course you don't, and I wouldn't expect you to.

I could bring up lots of things that individual members SF have done around the country that was against the party line. But I know that would just be stupid, a party can't be accouintable for the actions every ordianry member.

by pat c Fri Nov 29, 2002 17:49

you should know whats happening in qub if the sp there within a couple of weeks have :

1. supported a british army recruiting stand.

2. voted with the dup against naming a bursary after pat finucane.

you truly are beneath contempt suggesting tht to name a bursary after pat finucane could in anyway be sectarian.

i have told no lies . i had to raise questions about the "recruiting sergeant" time after time until eventually one of your members said that sarge would be out of the sp if it happened again. i had to wade trougha lot of sp lies to get to that.

how many sp lies will we have to endure before they tell the truth about their voting pact with the dup?

btw i am not in sf, as you well know. but then you just cant help lying

by Finghin - Sp Fri Nov 29, 2002 17:56

I thought you were in SF.

We have no voting pact with the DUP. The DUP are a sectarian right wing capitalist party.

I am not saying that naming a bursary after Pat Finucane is sectarian. If read what I said I made it quite clear that I would have no problem with this. These issues can be brought up in a sectarian triumphalist manner, this is what I'd oppose.

Again, I am sick of repeating this, the SP DO NOT support recruitment to the British army or any other capitalist army.

by war party Fri Nov 29, 2002 18:29

So the sp do not want the publicity of being in the talking shop, but dont want to be involved with a scheme to provide a bursary in honor of a worker, incase it gets hijacked by sectarianism. In otherwords they are backing of the battle against the sectarians.
seems the sp want the glory when its easily won.

It would be nice if there were photo's of the sp/brit army recrutment accusations.

by chris loughlin - sp Fri Nov 29, 2002 18:47

pat you might not be a member of sf, but saying we have a voting pact with dup?! we werent the party sharing government with them were we, who wa that again of my oh my it was sf!!!!! in all honesty its like you sid before we in the sp just like lieing of course we have a voting pact with the dup why i had a brilliant conversation with mr paisley the other day!! grow up

by Dave Fri Nov 29, 2002 20:03

What is your definition of honouring a victim of British Imperialism in a "sectarian" manner?
Pat Finucane was murdered by a loyalist death squad, with at the very least, suspicion of collusion by the "security forces". Your position of opposing a tribute being paid to a brave civil rights lawyer is rather puzzling for a left wing party, whose policies, on some issues I would agree with.

by Billy King Fri Nov 29, 2002 20:33

The Socialist Party has lectured us all on how they would be progressive in the north if SF weren't so damn sectarian. From where i'm sitting it seems to me that maybe the Socialist Party are the sectarian ones. Maybe they want the Brit Army recruitng, maybe they don't want a taig like Pat Finucane to be remembered even if he was killed by a joint Brit Army/ UDA gang. Maybe though i'm wrong.
So heres how the SP.do things in a non sectarian way.
But here is what Socialist Party member Andy Ward did. He voted against the QUB SU supporting the Pat Finucane Bursary, whch was being awarded by QUB. He then supported a new Bursary being named after a dead Ulster Unionist MP who also was a lecture in Queens. However this man as an MP and Lecturer also had other connections. His partner, a woman, was convicted a couple of years later as possessing bombs for the LVF on Drumcree Hill.
So its time for the SP to come down off their own Drumcree Hill. Organisations are known by their actions and the actions of their members. Shitlike it was presented in a sectarian manner is just that shit. You are either progressie or not. Now what the fuck is going on with your members in Belfast

by hs sp Fri Nov 29, 2002 21:31

this is getting a little worrying! All he has to do is stick on an amendment to stop it from being sectarian!

by OK - SP Sat Nov 30, 2002 01:09

Pat c and his republican friends seem to be very like the Sparts. They get one or two things out of context and and keep going on about it for ages.

by Dave Sat Nov 30, 2002 01:55

I am shocked that OK thinks that anyone who is critical of a member of a left wing party who supports an imperialist army is a sparticist, that is really below the belt. It is also the ultimate in black humour.
I find it also staggering that an SP member opposed a degree of recognition to a respected civil rights lawyer, what on earth is “sectarian” about that.

Incidentally, apart from not being a spart, I am also not a republican, I am a MARXIST!

by Killian Sat Nov 30, 2002 02:51

Mr Finghin

Ok so you have "no problem honoring Pat Finucane" - but not in a sectarian way!

What nonsense are you peddling?

I read the Higgins speech and like the Green party your analysis and vision on the issue of national self determination is very lame.

SP will proudly take a very black/white - good/bad stance on dozens of issue around the globe, but when it comes to your own doorsteps, it is out with the 'Pocket guide to Marxism' and you stick to aspirational theories.

I presume you have also read Fanon and/or Murat if not well do so and spot the satire of the same type of individuals, like SP, in the books.

SP stance on the national question is similair to that taken by middle class suburban do-gooders who work in the community sector in ireland, are 'almost' vegeterian and are 'for peace'.

I wonder whether you thought the freedom of dublin city awarded to Mandela was racist?

Same bizarre logic.

by bollox Sat Nov 30, 2002 12:01

It seems that the bad boys on this weeks discussion are the SP. Whats the matter "comrades", ran out of things to attack the SWP on

For years Sinn Fein have been voting with and working in partnership with the DUP in every local council in Northern Ireland.
On the executive of the Assembly the two Sinn Fein ministers worked with the DUP and together with the other sectarian ministers introduced anti-working class cuts. Barbre De Bruin (or De Cuts as she is better known) has overseen the introduction of cutbacks in the health service in the North which includes closing hospitals.Martin McGuinness refused to pay the Term Time workers a decent wage as well as refusing to give them full time contracts, only backing down after strike action and a lengthy campaign against him and his department. McGuinness is also responsible for introducing privatisation into the education system in the North, through PFI projects.
Sinn Fein (Fianna Fail Mark II) have been part of a sectarian anti-working class government and in reality have been responsible for its most right wing attacks on workers.

by OK - SP Sat Nov 30, 2002 13:22

We do not have a "middle class do-gooder" policy on the North. WE HAVE A MARXIST POSITION! We are a party made up of working class people, many living in interface areas.

We stand for class unity. That means unity against all sectarian attacks, not just those on catholics.

On the situation in QUB. I personally dont know the member that is alleged to be saying all this. I think that it's clear that the SP oppose recruitment to the British Army (and the Irish Army). We do not oppose a bursury being named after Pat Finucane. I dont think that the views expressed by one party member can be used against us all! I know plenty of times that members of SF and SWP have said things that are against their party's position. I then dont go online and put it out of context to attack that party.

We are Marxists and actively oppose fascists, the Orange Order are not fascists. They are a right wing bigoted and sectarian organisation.

by East Belfast Socialist Sat Nov 30, 2002 14:23

Most people who have contributed to this "debate" are missing the key point.
Pat Finucane isn't the issue. Who votes in a particular way isn't the issue. The real issue at hand is the intent of those making the proposal to name the bursary at QUB after Pat Finucane.
QUB is not a catholic university. It is a university to which young people attend from every "tradition" in Northern Ireland. Sectarianism is a reality in Northern Ireland and a reality in QUB. The proposal to name the bursary in QUB is not in of itself a sectarian proposal. However the consequences of such a proposal would lead to an increase in sectarian tension within the university.
I believe that the intentions of those who made this proposal are suspect. They may try and cover their proposal with platitudes about just wanting to "honour" the memory of Pat Finucanne because he was a "human rights lawyer" who was murdered by loyalist paramilitaries. I believe this is utter nonsense. Pat Finucane is cynically being used by these people to further their own political agenda which is a sectarian agenda.
Anyone who thinks that making such a proposal will not lead to an increase in sectarian tension at QUB is extremely naieve. Therefore why make this proposal. Naming a bursary after Pat Finucane is a meaningless gesture. It will do absolutely nothing in terms of assisting his family and friends in getting to the "truth" surrounding his murder or bringing to justice those responsible.
So why make the proposal. Quite simply those putting forward this idea are republicans or republican sympathisers whose agenda is to create a situation of sectarian discontent within QUB hoping that they can then gain support for their ideas amongst the catholic students.
If the DUP had've put forward a proposal to name somthing at QUB after a protestant who had been murdered by republicans this too would have sectarian consequences and should be equally opposed.
But in the greater context this "debate" is trivial. The real issues facing students at QUB are fees, lack of grants, cuts in funding for facitlities, student accomodation etc.
What is needed in QUB is to find ways to unite all students in a struggle on the issues they have in common, not to come up with proposals which result in students being divided along sectarian lines and as I have witnessed in the past students becoming involved in physical sectarian confrontations.
Pat C (don't know him from Adam) says he is not a member of Sinn Fein. I would say that Sinn Fein are probably glad that you are not a member. I can tell from your contributions that you are an arm chair republican cheerleader. The type of person who stood on the sidelines during the "armed struggle" and didn't have the balls to take up weapons and fight yourself but just applauded and encouraged others to do it from a Free State bar stool. The best thing you could do for the struggle of working class people in the North would be to keep your mouth shut and take up knitting.

by Observer Sat Nov 30, 2002 14:44

Your contribution seems to imply "ignore the British security spooks and UDA murder of a civil rights lawyer" (encouraged you may remember by a British cabinet minister a few days before).

Standing up to the forces that murdered Finucane, and honouring his memory is not a sectarian act, it is a basic democratic act.

(Neither is it a Republican act -- the fact that socialists like yourself and the SP oppose it leaves the field clear for Republicans to falsely pose as the champions of civil rights).

In the SP case it is simply opportunism, trying not to challenge loyalist prejudice for fear of losing support. Nothing is MORE calculated to increase sectarianism in the long term if socialists take this attitude.

by East Belfast Socialist Sat Nov 30, 2002 15:15

Standing up to the forces that murdered Pat Finucane is of course not a sectarian act. But do you also stand up to and campaign against the people who carry out sectarian killings of Protestants? Have you condemned the Provos and other republican paramilitaries for murdering Protestants? The fight against sectarianism can only be won by uniting catholic and protestant working class people against ALL sectarianism, if you are selective in your condemnation then you are part of the problem not the solution. Opposing the sectarian attacks on the people in Short Strand becomes meaningless and only adds to the problem if you don't also oppose the sectarian attacks which have orginated from the Short Strand against protestants living in the Lower Newtownards Road, six of whom were shot by republicans from Short Strand during the summer.
The demonstration of 100,000 workers against sectarianism on 18 January is an example of how sectarianism can be defeated, and will do more to prevent the sectarian murder of others like Pat Finucane more than naming something after him.
I am not a member of the Socialist Party but I know that more than any other so called left party in the North that they have genuinely stood up to and fought against all forms of sectarianism in our society. I have been involved in politics for a long time. I remember back in the late 60s the Militant as SP was known as then were the only people who opposed the British Army being sent into the North, even people like Bernadette Devlin and Eamonn McCann supported the army coming in, as did many of those today who accuse the SP of being pro-imperialist.

by Observer Sat Nov 30, 2002 15:38

1. You ask "have you condemned the Provos"? My contribution implicitly attacked Provo politics. Their armed policy was counter productive. It is obvious to all that they are now poised to become part of the NI establishment. That's another reason why we need a genuine socialist alternative.
But do you believe there is an equivalence between the the British state, the NI state, the Unionist ruling class and the loyalist murder gangs that do their bidding on the one hand and those who are the product of oppression on the other?
If so you equate imperialism and those who fight imperialism (however stupidly or mistakenly). In that case you would say I suppose condemn the Israeli government and the Palestinian fighters equally? Same logic.

2. You speak of sectarianism in the Short Strand and Lower Newtownards Road as if it was simply a matter of two street gangs or worse two communities equally to blame fighting it out. Don't you understand that sectarianism is stirred up from above? It amounts to letting the imperialists and their agents off the hook to blame communities. Simply put, the loyalist paramilitaries, themselves the products and largely creatures of the British state, see themselves being completely sidelined unless they can provoke the Provos into returning to armed struggle. Hence the sectarian attacks. No doubt wiht politics as bad as the Provos' some are willing to respond in kind.

3.When did Eamonn McCann or Bernadette McAlliskey/Devlin "support British troops" being deployed in the North? I think you will need to supply documentary evidence and/or a link if you are not to be exposed on this.

by Dave Sat Nov 30, 2002 18:37

I still have to hear an adequate answer to my question re why naming a bursary in memory of the late Pat Finucane, a person murdered by a loyalist death squad with the assistance of the british state, is "sectarian". Re the brit army stall at QUB, I accept the answer that was given. Incidentally, I am not anti SP, I agree with a great deal of their policies. Joe Higgins, I regard as a principled person.

by OK - SP Sat Nov 30, 2002 21:16

it's pointless to continue with this "debate" with the left republicans. They are distorting the SP position on the national question. We hold a marxist position, they dont like that.

They have political differences with us, instead of an interesting debate they just want to slag us off.

I'm not going to waste my time anymore with the likes of "Pat C" untill they stop engaging in personal attacks.

by Dave Sun Dec 01, 2002 12:24

Re the comments of "East Belfast Socialist", I agree with you that all sectarian attacks are to be equally condemned BUT the facts are the vast majority of sectarian attacks are directed against the nationalist community. I am puzzled why you should oppose a tribute to a human rights lawyer who was murdered by a fascist death squad with at the very least the suspicion of collusion by agents of the british state. Re the comments of OK, I agree to a very large extent with the policies of the SP but I have still to recieve an answer to my question why a tribute to Pat Finucane should be considered "sectarian". Incidentally, I do not make personal attacks or direct abusive remarks at anyone.

by patc c Mon Dec 02, 2002 12:08

there are liars , damned liars, statisticians, and then there is the sp.

how am i distorting the views of the sp on the north?

andy ward a member of the sp supported a british army recruiting stall in qub. THIS IS A FACT.

andy ward a member of the sp opposed the naming of a bursary after pat finucane. in doing this he voted with the dup. THIS IS A FACT.

andy ward a member of the sp then supported the naming of a bursary after a unionist mp. THIS IS A FACT.

the sp support the right of the orange order to march down the garvaghy road. this is despite the fact that 12 people have been murdered by loyalists to assert that right. THIS IS A FACT

the sp call british soldiers "workers in uniform". they used this formulation all through the war in the north. (back copies of militant etc are available in personal collections & public libraries.) THIS IS A FACT

east belfast "socialist" calls me an armchair cheerleader; well, i have been involved in socialist & republican politics for many years. in pro-choice, anti-fascist, anti-charges, anti-nuke etc.

i have never been afraid to put my criticisms of republicans on record. there were actions carried out by both the ira & inla during the war which could only have ben seen as sectarian by the protestant community (in particular the targetting of those working on ruc & army bases).

never the less, i differentiate between the violence of the oppressed and that of the oppressor. i believe any armed group should be answerable to the community and should take their lead from a political wing; but i also live in the real world.

if it wasn't for the guns held by republicans, catholics would be ethnically cleansed on a bosnian scale.

by OK - SP Mon Dec 02, 2002 16:11

I have no reason to continue entertaining Pat C. We have political differences with him. He's a nationalist with a nationalist outlook on the national question, we're socialists with a socialist outlook on the national question.

He does not even read our comments and replies. He is still bringing up points that have been dealt with. He continues to think that we 'support' the orange order, he did not read our position. He still think that we 'support' imperialism, he's not read our position!

There's no point in continuing in this one-way discussion. Debate with Pat C is like dialogue with the deaf.

by OK - SP Mon Dec 02, 2002 16:21

Pat C, I'm not going to reveal our internal proceedures on Indymedia. So I refuse to answer the "questions" that you put in your last posting.

If you were a member of a party you would not like the internal workings of the party broadcasted on Indymedia. Why should the SP do so.

by Del boy trotter Mon Dec 02, 2002 17:47

The SP are not Marxist, They are Trotskyist and there is a huge difference, some Marxists may be misguided, but genuine but Trotskists are just assholes playing at being revolutionary, MR. Carolan and the SP writers above are good examples of this.

by pat c Mon Dec 02, 2002 18:20

you are a loyalist. now how do you feel about that.

if its legitimate for you to call me a nationalist then surely its even more legitimate for me to call you a loyalist. you support the right of the orange order to march down the garvaghy road. so does the lvf.

you are not socialists , in the north you are left wing loyalists. your only message to catholics is croppy lie down.

do you really think you can get away with not answering these questions? they are going to keep cropping up.

all of the points i made are statements of fact.
ward did all of the things i stated he did, YOU HAVENT DENIED THIS>

militant described soldiers as workers in uniform all thru the war in the north. YOU HAVENT DENIED THIS.

you & the lvf continue to support the right of the orange order to march down the garvaghy road. THIS IS A FACT DESPITE YOUR DENIALS.

if a member of your party broke party policy in a public way then surely it is reasonable to ask you how you investigated this. and what youare doing about it.

you are fooling no one. the questions will keep coming until you supply answers.

if its a dialogue of the deaf then you choose to be deaf.

by Dave Mon Dec 02, 2002 19:29

By this stage I am becoming ever so slightly pissed off, could some person from the SP answer my question, why is a tribute to a human rights lawyer considered sectarian????? everyone else can slag each other off to their heart's content.
All I want is an answer to one question.

by Harry Mon Dec 02, 2002 20:05

Pat C, I know you but you probably don't know me. I did have some respect for you and your organisation AFA. But from what I've seen of your postings on this site all that respect for you has gone and I am calling into question the credentials of AFA. Pat cyour postings are extremeely childish, grow up and post something constructive.

by hs sp Mon Dec 02, 2002 20:39

i think the answer east belfast socialist gave was it would create a sectarian athmosphere and further divide students. And the naming of the hall would make no real difference to anyone, therfore it was more negative than positive. Don't know if I agree but this was the answer given. But then I'm not in queens.

by Marion - no party Mon Dec 02, 2002 21:06

I always thought AFA were serious about their politics. With Pat C as a member, I'm re-thinking my attitude towards AFA.

Do AFA classify the Orange Order as fascist? Pat C obviously does. Maybe AFA are a bunch of authoritarians that want to attack non-fascists. Should they be re-named AFA (Anti Freedom Action)

Will AFA distance themselves from the remarks of Pat C? Because what is classified as fascist is very important, if non-fascists are labelled as fascist it's called an attack on civil liberties.

Pat C, I dont like the Orange Order, I hate them, but they are not fascist and have a right to march.

What are AFA doing to discipline Pat C? Are all AFA members as childish and immature?

by pat c Tue Dec 03, 2002 12:30

"Pat c
by Harry Mon, Dec 2 2002, 7:05pm

Pat C, I know you but you probably don't know me. I did have some respect for you and your organisation AFA. But from what I've seen of your postings on this site all that respect for you has gone and I am calling into question the credentials of AFA. Pat cyour postings are extremeely childish, grow up and post something constructive."

if you had any respect for afa then you would also be aware of the links between loyalists & fascism. in particular fascist support for the garvaghy road marc.

whats childish about opposing orange marchs? if the sp call me a nationalist why shouldnt i call them loyalist?

"to dave
by hs sp Mon, Dec 2 2002, 7:39pm

i think the answer east belfast socialist gave was it would create a sectarian athmosphere and further divide students. And the naming of the hall would make no real difference to anyone, therfore it was more negative than positive. Don't know if I agree but this was the answer given. But then I'm not in queens."

naming something after a murdered civil rights lawyer would create sectarianism? you are beneath contempt

"AFA - Anti Freedom Action?
by Marion - no party Mon, Dec 2 2002, 8:06pm

I always thought AFA were serious about their politics. With Pat C as a member, I'm re-thinking my attitude towards AFA."

afa is a single issue campaign. i doubt if you know anything about it.

"Do AFA classify the Orange Order as fascist? Pat C obviously does. Maybe AFA are a bunch of authoritarians that want to attack non-fascists. Should they be re-named AFA (Anti Freedom Action)"

afa is aware of the links between the orange order & the BNP, NF, & Combat 18. they have turned up to support the orange order at the garvaghy road, lower ormeau etc.

it is obvious that you are hostile to afa.

"Will AFA distance themselves from the remarks of Pat C? Because what is classified as fascist is very important, if non-fascists are labelled as fascist it's called an attack on civil liberties. "

why should they? i didn't say the orange order was fascist. but they do have fascist links. if you ever read any afa publications you would be aware of this.

"Pat C, I dont like the Orange Order, I hate them, but they are not fascist and have a right to march."

so you want them to march down the Garvaghy Road? You are dancing on the graves of the 12 people killed by loyalists to assert their right to march.

"What are AFA doing to discipline Pat C?"

nothing. i am fully in accordance with afa policy.

"Are all AFA members as childish and immature?"

its obvious you know nothing about afa. when have you ever stood up to racists or fascists?

so its childish & immature to disagree with the Sp policy on loyalism & imperialism. you guys are so funny.

you think you can call me a nationalist & then get outraged when I call you a loyalist!

by East Belfast Socialist Tue Dec 03, 2002 13:39

The term fascist should not be used willy nilly as a form of abuse it is a scientific term to designate a person or party's politics. Many people on the left called Thatcher a fascist, when of course she wasn't, others use this term to describe the Orange Order. The Orange Order are a sectarian right wing mainly rural based organisation. It is not a fascist organisation, those who describe it as such as simply using this term as a form of abuse. The Orange Order should be opposed and campaigned against. I support the right of all political orgainsations to hold meetings, protest and march irrespective if I agree with their politics or not, except fascists.
The Orange Order has a right to march. But catholic residents also have the right to live in their local areas free from sectarian intimidation. Therefore there are two conflicting rights, the best way to solve this problem is through a compromise brought about by dialogue between the two communities. Any other proposal will only lead to sectarian conflict.
Regarding differentiating between the actions of the oppressed and the oppressor. Yes of course there is a difference. But to simply focus on this and to not deal with the reality of how sectarian killings irrespective of who carries them out actually affect the consciousness of working class people in the north is to live in the dream world of the sects.
The campaigns of the Provos and other republican groups as well as the loyalist paramilitaries and the British state have added to the sectarian division amongst workers. None of these groups or governments or establishment political parties on these islands can make any contribution to overcoming sectarian division. Working class people in the north will only be united through their own independent political actions.
Pat C you may have been involved in political campaigns over the years but you still didn't have the balls to join the armed struggle, you let others do your fighting for you, and for that you and your ilk will always be held in contempt by republicans.

by pat c Tue Dec 03, 2002 14:19

you talk about negotiations about the garvaghy road after the twelve murders? its obvious you are a loyalist.

your attempted insults are pathetic.

go on , march down the lower ormeau. dance on the five graves.

by East Belfast Socialist Wed Dec 04, 2002 13:26

Why do your ilk not go to the Shankill Road or the Newtownards Road and organise protests to stop the Orange Order marching? Or is it that you are just opposed to the Orange Order marching through what you consider to be catholic areas but its ok for them to march through protestant areas?
Also the Ormeau Road is not a catholic road, its a main road and there are a small number of streets off it that have a majority of residents which are catholics. When you people say no orange feet on the Lower Ormeau what you are in fact saying is no protestants.
The campaign against Orange parades is part of Sinn Fein's campaign for territorial control and for the exclusion of protestants from these areas. Pat C you are purely and simply a sectarian bigot who mascarades as a left, why don't you just come out of your closet.

by pat c Wed Dec 04, 2002 14:36

"Why do your ilk not go to the Shankill Road or the Newtownards Road and organise protests to stop the Orange Order marching? Or is it that you are just opposed to the Orange Order marching through what you consider to be catholic areas but its ok for them to march through protestant areas?"

why do you want what even you describe as bigots marching through areas where they are not wanted?
i would organise support for any protestant people who wanted to stop the orange order from
marching down the shankill etc.

"Also the Ormeau Road is not a catholic road, its a main road and there are a small number of streets off it that have a majority of residents which are catholics."

and they march ptriumphantly past the catholic areas, playing the "sash", "dollys brae" etc. they give five fingers outside grahams where five catholics were murdered by loyalists

"When you people say no orange feet on the Lower Ormeau what you are in fact saying is no protestants. "

no, i mean no orange marchs. what are you doing about the loyalist siege of the short strand? over 600 loyalist attacvks on it in 6 months.

"The campaign against Orange parades is part of Sinn Fein's campaign for territorial control and for the exclusion of protestants from these areas."

this is standing reality on its head, the ormeau & the short strand are surrounded by a sea of hostile loyalists they are struggling to survive.

it is loyalists who are ethnically cleansing catholics from larne to antrim to portadown to lisburn to ballymena.

"Pat C you are purely and simply a sectarian bigot who mascarades as a left, why don't you just come out of your closet."

i am a republican socialist, you are a sectarian supporter of the orange orders right to march over the bodies of catholics.

you wont even acknowledge the attempts to ethnically cleanse catholics from east belfast, which you cannot be ignorant of.

you are just as much my class enemy as any loyalist big businessman is.

by East Belfast Socialist Wed Dec 04, 2002 18:06

You say I am a loyalist, there aren't too many loyalists living in Short Strand were I have lived my whole life and I know exactly what it is like to be the victim of sectarianism, but I am not a blind bigot who believes that sectarianism is one sided there are plenty of bigots living in my community who do carry out sectarian attacks against protestants.

by pat c Thu Dec 05, 2002 12:24

perhaps i should call you a quisling then?

you are certainly a liar, you cannot be unawatre of the sectarian siege under which the short strand lives.

anyway there is no point in continuing this debate with you.

i suggest to the sp and others that we agree to disagree on the national question.

dont call me a nationalist & i wont call you loyalists.

this has gone on long enough. the east belfast denizen can have the word if he so desires.