Public request to IMC Ireland

by Ray Mon Nov 18, 2002 13:16

I've responded to very few of the articles in the last few weeks.
But if you are so worried by the possibility that I may criticise you, here are some tips.

1. Read the editorial guidelines. The guidelines prohibit advertising, cross-posting, posting comments as new articles, and so on. If you ignore these guidelines there's a good chance your post will be removed, or just criticised by me or someone else.

2. Read the newswire before posting. If you want to say something about, for example, an anti-war protest that was held over the weekend in Cork, check the newswire and make sure no-one else has beaten you to it. If there's already a reasonably recent article on the subject, add a comment there.

3. Don't copy and paste material from other sites. If you see a news story somewhere else that you think is interesting, relevant, and new to most of the people here, write a short summary of the story, and include a link that people can follow if they want to read the entire article.
If you don't want to write summaries, and just want to point out interesting articles, set up your own weblog.
If you find that you're pointing out lots of articles every week, consider combing them all into a digest of interesting news from around the world, and posting a single article a week.

If you think these requests are unreasonable go ahead and say so. If you just think that they shouldn't apply to you, expect me to continue posting criticism.

by iosaf = € Mon Nov 18, 2002 13:27

I don´t know who is responsible for the deletions, but it is quite apparant that many are contentious, I am aware that many readers in Ireland don´t have either the time or money or internet access or equipment to daily search the web.
I think links should be provided in the cases of crosspost deletions. If the argument against crosspost deletions is saving space. For exapmle yesterday the Sifiris case went global, on every indymedia site. It seems all of us could save a lot of energy if contentious crossposts were replaced with a link. It would also mean comments/support/criticism of those posts would be kept in one place.
The ireland indymedia programe doesn´t allow readers to search keywords (authors/titles,etc). This means "position on the newswire" becomes overly important, I´ve been shocked to read so many times the comment "so and so has knocked such and such off the newswire". We need continous feed, continous flow in the stream, but it seems you do have legitimate concerns and worries, I can not however say who is responsible for the deletions, coz I´m just a reader / writer / commentator / gobshite.
But I do agree that some deletions have been contentious and difficult and more importantly have caused bad feeling in the indymedia ireland community which is very undesirable. And some deletions though I´ve never said so, have surprised me. And other articles left on have surprised me. Perhaps linking is a shortterm option.

by Ray Mon Nov 18, 2002 13:31

Deletions are (at least in theory) posted to the editorial list as soon as they occur. So if you want to be informed of the articles that are being deleted, join the editorial list. The link will show you some (though not all) of the material that's been deleted in the last few months.

by Daithi - 1 of IMC Ireland Mon Nov 18, 2002 13:33

Alan, you are a liar and your article is spreading a falsehood to other users. How dare you make this kind of attack without knowing your facts?

Ray is policing Indymedia? Last time I checked the definition of police involved having some kind of power, right?

So how is it that Ray doesn't even have an editorial password and has never, EVER hidden an article?

Did you let this essential fact get in the way of your abuse?

Over 40%? Was this just the first number that came into your head? Or have you any evidence of this ridiculous claim at all?

And please explain this, Alan.

"If other IMCer's could post there opinions then we could perhaps have some real democracy in this "independent" media centre."

In what way is our independence being undermined? Those quotation marks didn't get there (not their) by accident. Where is the lack of independence?

I'm quite glad that you have limited access to communications; next time you come online could you do everyone the favour of basing your petty attack on something a little more concrete?

by redJaDe Mon Nov 18, 2002 13:36

first of all, read the Editorial Guidelines

http://www.indymedia.ie/about/editorial.html

that's what is supposed to be followed. So the question SHOULD BE is Ray (or anyone else) following these guidelines?

/I live outside of Dublin therefore am unable to take part in any of the meetings that IMC Ireland have in Dublin./

I think you are over estimating how many IMC meetings there are - hardly any, to my knowledge. A better criticism would be that there are not enough meetings, in Dublin or elsewhere.

/that Ray has taken it upon himself, to police the Irish IMC./

Police? How? There have been some recent issues regarding what is deleted/censored from the site, why and by whom? I think those issues were resolved, but others will know the answer better than I.

Ray has strong opinions, he expresses these opinions and he pisses people off. No harm in that is there?

Please provide specific examples of Ray's evil deeds, then a judgement can be made - but I think you will discover he doing far less *actual* evil than you suspect and instead you may just not like his comments.

Do not confuse free-speech with censorship, they are two radically different things.

Now that I have defended Ray, here's **Where I disagree with Ray**

IMC-IRL Guidelines say posts may be deleted/censored if:
//being comments, not news - duplicate posts - infactual or obviously false posts - libelous or slanderous posts - discriminatory or abusive posts - advertising or other inappropriate content//

Ray says:
//3. Don't copy and paste material from other sites.//

Ray, I do not see where this rule of yours comes from. Material from other sites does not count as duplication.

I think the Newswire is a space for sharing info about what is happening and opinions about what is happening. Deleting/Censoring should be done relectantly and sparingly and only to the guidelines.

**More importantly** IMC-IRL needs to move to a new content management system which categorizes posts and hides posts rather than deleting them totally - this is what other IMC sites have been doing for some time.

There have been efforts in the IMC-IRL to do this, and I think we have all been negligent in following through in making it happen.

I think 80% of the frustration over this deletion/censorship issue would fade away if we were simply using a different technology of publishing.

by Daithi Mon Nov 18, 2002 13:41

No article has ever been deleted for being copied from another site. Articles posted on all the Indymedia sites are deleted but everything else people just give out about.

Criticised, yes, but not once deleted unless there for another reason.

by ipsiphi Mon Nov 18, 2002 13:46

but new technology would help.
with search engines and catagories for specific interests like:
anti-criminalisation
corruption
feminism
occupation
peace
anti-fascism
technology
ecology
education
speculation
diasporia
I put that list of suggests together by looking at Barcelona´s home page, and maybe translations too would help, there are lots of european migrants and students in Ireland.
and maybe a visitor counter too, so the reader could see how many people were in the room (this is used in cymru.indymedia) so there´d be less arguments of who is who. Thinking of which (and once bitten twice shy) I´m still not Daithi I´m still not Ray, I´m still not Blisset, and I´m still not Pat C., I´m still not Green PartyMike, and I´m not even Mags.
o as if.
But if adopting new technology means limiting access to previously posted files then that would cause "almighty ructions", and "almighty ructions" would be very bad.

Don´t worry comrades the evolving revolution is safe!
= avoid the "almighty ructions".

by Ray Mon Nov 18, 2002 13:48

- Ray says:
//3. Don't copy and paste material from other sites.//

Ray, I do not see where this rule of yours comes from. Material from other sites does not count as duplication.

I think the Newswire is a space for sharing info about what is happening and opinions about what is happening. Deleting/Censoring should be done relectantly and sparingly and only to the guidelines. -

I agree, this isn't in the guidelines. I just think its something that people should bear in mind when posting. Since we can't search for articles on the newswire, and there's no way of categorising articles to make them easier to find, pretty much the only way to see what's been happening is to read through the newsire page by page. If the pages are full of articles that are just copied from the Guardian, or Counterpunch, or New Scientist, or wherever else, then original news stories become harder to find. So people should exercise some self-discipline.

by an example Mon Nov 18, 2002 16:53

From: Jonathan Morrison
mailto:[email protected]
http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/imc-ireland-editorial

Dear moderator,

Last Thursady I posted some promotional material for a new book on social partnership. However, when I checked later the material had been removed. Why was this removed?

We are not a commercial company, we are political organisation trying to promote political ideas. That is why we have poduced a book on social partnership, one of the most important issues facing the Irish working class.

We expect censorship from the mainstream book distributors and the media, but not from a website that styles itself as a "democratic media outlet for the creation of radical, accurate, and passionate tellings of truth".

Yours in comradeship,

Socialist Democracy

by Ray Mon Nov 18, 2002 17:13

is on the deleted list*. It was pretty clearly an advertisement, in that it offered review copies, quoted a price, and told people where to send money to buy the book.

For reference, when somebody posted an ad for Socialist Worker telling people a new issue was out and that they should go buy it, it was deleted as an ad.
When Socialist Worker was put on the web, and a listing of its contents with links to the articles on the web was posted here, nobody even suggested deleting it.

If your only interest is to promote your ideas, put the book on the web and post a link to it.

* though I wasn't the one who deleted it

by Phuq Hedd Mon Nov 18, 2002 17:43

Here are some arguments against cut and paste of material from other websites:

1. The original site may have a lot more information and provide context for the material. If it was a good place for you to find it then other people may want to drink from the well instead of from _your_ cupped hands.

2. Cutting and pasting unless done very carefully can introduce errors and ommissions. This is an (unintentional) distortion of what the person that originally wrote it said. We can then get into the situation that trolls/disinformation-spreaders can introduce subtle errors and it won't be clear what was actually originally said. Trying to find the original site with a search-engine will be hard because there will be thousands of cutnpaste copies spread around.

3. If we all cutnpaste something that takes our fancy then the _original_ material produced by activists on the NEWSwire will be swamped by our reproductions of what we individually happen to find interesting (Whether or not Muhammad had sex with 9 year-old girls for example). We won't see Tim Hourigan's reports on the newswire, or the Cork Peace Alliance's report of their march, or the CFE's reports or (god-forbid) the 24th announcement of a report back to the people on Florence/ESF by the SWP, we won't hear about AFA taking the latest direct action against the fash, BECAUSE THE NEWSWIRE WILL BE SWAMPED.

4. If someone goes to the trouble of writing and putting up material on their website then they have authorship rights over it. If you cut and paste material from their site without proper attribution then they are having some attention removed from their site.

I have been a summary-and-link woman for a little while and I think that even this may not be a good thing. Perhaps I'll adopt the Ray idea of a single post per week with all the links in one lot. I think it might be better to have a seperate section of Indymedia.ie with non-news items in it though.

Finally I think all the Ray-bashing is ridiculous. Ray _asks_ for things to be removed. Their removal is a collective IMC-editorial decision. Given that IMC-editorial can be joined by anyone that wants to bother this seems that there's just a child drumming their heels on the floor and screaming because they can't get their own way.

by MG Mon Nov 18, 2002 18:18

and I also agree 100% with Phuq Hedd.

by pat c Tue Nov 19, 2002 11:50

reason with the censors.

the "rules" will be applied depending on their moods.

if you make any criticism you are a"liar", a "raving lunatic" and you "should be on the lists".

if you disagree with the imc dictatorship of the middle class, then adopt the following "rules":

if an item of yours is deleted, repost it.
if its deleted again, repost it 10 tim,es.
keep this up, eventually even ray & the "anarchist" cheka will get tired.

i'm not going to comment any further on this thread, so the imc priesthood can rave and rant to their hearts content.

by Ray Tue Nov 19, 2002 12:10

Ignore the democratically decided on rules, and try to make yourself such a nuisance that people will get tired of applying them to you. There's a course of action that shows a lot of respect for the people using and maintaining this site. Can you imagine behaving like that at a party, or a political meeting? "This is what I think we should do, and if you don't agree I'll keep repeating it over and over and over again until you eventually get bored and give in"

by IMC Dalek Tue Nov 19, 2002 13:53

Ray

Seeing as Pat C the Luxembourg Leninist Libertarian may well not come back (bet he is listening in though) I will put in my own shovel.

IMC is not a political party, so your analogy is invalid. IMC however is an organisation which in other circumstances you would be opposing.

When did voting become so important to you? When have you ever accepted the outcome of a Dail election? When have you ever accepted a referendum result you did not like?

Why should anyone accept the verdict of the IMC Dictatorship of the Petty Bougeoise? What are you going to do? Chase us off with your "Libertarian" KGB?

by Ray Tue Nov 19, 2002 14:10

- IMC is not a political party, so your analogy is invalid.

Actually I was talking about a party, as in group of people drinking, talking, whatever. I can think of few social situations where repeating yourself over and over and over again until you force agreement is considered polite and considerate behaviour.

- IMC however is an organisation which in other circumstances you would be opposing.

I'm afraid not. I might call for an organisation to adopt democratic decision making procedures, and open and transparent ways of making decisions. The IMC already has all that.

- When did voting become so important to you?

I'm an anarchist. Voting is a basic tool of democratic decision making.

- When have you ever accepted the outcome of a Dail election?

I think the parliamentary system is undemocratic, and always have. The IMC, on the other hand, is completely democratic. Anyone using indymedia can join the mailing lists, and once they join the list they get a vote that's just as important as anyone else's.

- When have you ever accepted a referendum result you did not like?

I've been in plenty of campaigns where I've lost a vote, and I can assure you I didn't react by standing in the middle of the room shouting at people to change their minds.

- Why should anyone accept the verdict of the IMC Dictatorship of the Petty Bougeoise?

Because only an idiot would think its a dictatorship. If you disagree with IMC policy or decisions there are completely democratic ways of changing them (or you can go somewhere else). These are not options for people living under a dictatorship.

- What are you going to do? Chase us off with your "Libertarian" KGB?

I'm going to continue doing what I've been doing so far - arguing for the rules that I think are necessary for the continued existence of indymedia Ireland as a useful resource, and defending those rules when I think they've been implemented correctly. What are you going to do? Continue making absurd analogies that only demonstrate your persecution complex?

by IMC Dalek Tue Nov 19, 2002 14:22

I wonder what sort of a planet Ray lives on. Is it in a seperate continuum? As well as word having different meaning depending on his mood, do the physical laws operate inanother manner as well?

So to oppose majority rule is now undemocratic. The majority of people accept capitalisn and vote for capitalist parties , so thats it I guess. End of story.

Lets all shut up shop. Otherwise weare being undemocratic.

Thank you Ray. The scales have fallen from my eyes.

by IMC addict Tue Nov 19, 2002 14:29

The majority of people accept capitalisn and vote for capitalist parties , so thats it I guess. End of story.

The majority of people don't vote. FF won the elections with 28% of the overall vote last time.

by IMC Dalek Tue Nov 19, 2002 14:37

The vast majority of people voted for FF, FG, LP, PD, GP. End of story.

(Actually I'm being ironic towards Ray, but you seem to be too rusty to realise that)

by Ray Tue Nov 19, 2002 14:38

The mailing lists are there to decide how the IMC is run. If you want things to change you're free to argue your case there.
The mailing lists were set up so that people who were interested in the administration of the IMC would have somewhere to discuss it, and those who were just interested in the news being published here wouldn't have to see the (frequently boring) discussions that go on behind the scenes.
I think it says a lot about you and Pat that neither of you will actually send proposals to the mailing list but prefer to spend your time posting to the newswire telling everyone how oppressed you are. The phrase 'self-centred drama queens' springs to mind.

by IMC Dalek Tue Nov 19, 2002 16:57

But I like the term drama queen (although I hope it isn't meant to be homophobic).

You like to have any dissension hushed up. You do not want adverse comments about IMC on the newswire. This is why you are pushing your censors list. (Yes, lets call a spade a spade)
There are people who don't get their jollies from deleting articles and constantly scanning every posting to see if it contravenes some sub-clause of a sub-section.

Your censorship committee is a bunch of self appointed busy bodies which no Civil Libertarian, let alone Socialist or Anarchist would wish to join.

by Ray Tue Nov 19, 2002 17:37

- Your censorship committee is a bunch of self appointed busy bodies...

'My' committee was active long before I got involved in indymedia.
And rather than 'self-appointed busybodies', I think you'll find that the people who are on the lists are the very people who set up indymedia ireland in the first place. Its only because of their work that you have somewhere to come and whine about being oppressed. I'm not so foolish as to expect you to be grateful for the service they have put so much work into providing, but a bit of cop-on would be nice.

by Daithi Tue Nov 19, 2002 17:48

Dalek...I think it's useful if there's something that needs to be criticised, to send it to the lists as well as posting a comment.

Reason: there are never more than a few people actively editing; it's time consuming enough as it is, and until more people are willing to help spread the load, there's no way that I'm ever going to get around to reading all comments.

So if you, or anyone, has a problem with something that was hidden/not hidden, there's a fair chance that no-one with access to remedy the situation will ever see the comment.

I do try to get around to reading everything but you can understand how much stuff is coming on the site every day - if the comment is something that you think should be acted upon then please send it to the mailing list and it's guaranteed to be noticed quicker.

If that makes any sense.