SUPPORT COLOMBIA 3

by observer Tue Nov 19, 2002 13:54

he speaks truth. he unlike you idiots has seen the ugly truth of so called revolutions. god the ignorance makes me so angry !

by cuntstable bobby stevens Tue Nov 19, 2002 12:21

my guess is that i am not an impartial so called belgian, i am a belgian buisness man, hoping to exploit the colombian peasants and poor. i am hoping to set up my factory in Colombia, to take advantage of the repression of Trade unions and workers, by the colombian state junta. in colombia there are lax health and safety workplace laws, unions are also outlawed, in colombia it is very easy to have troublesome trade unionists assasinated/disappeared.

by € Tue Nov 19, 2002 12:00

as I said earlier they are being processed as Irish passport holders citizens of a neutral state in an international war. If the political will and apparata are present to bring them back to Ireland it is also there to continue the genuine efforts to bring peace to Columbia which means conflict resolution, justice, truth and an end to meddling in Columbian affairs by the United States of America.
To call for the return of the Irish in Columbia is not to support FARC nor is it to support the IRA. It is to admit a real connection between the Irish and Columbian peoples. I don´t imagine that any prisoners with such obvious political status will return without serious debate on the current and unfolding situtation in Columbia.

by jrh Tue Nov 19, 2002 00:53

I tried to write a response, but then my wife (who's Colombian) started to ask questions, and I had a phonecall with relatives. Don't forget that these people lost a lot of family and friends - on both sides. So here are the questions from Colombia :

- how was is possible that those 3 people were walking in a forbidden zone (it's openend up now, I'm supposed to go south of Villavicencio around New Year), without getting in trouble with the FARC ? The FARC hates human rights activists, democratic inspections, union activists, journalists, etc ... as much as the AUC. Without protection, they couldn't have gotten very far. And it doesn't matter where the protection came from, it could have been from the AUC too. Just look at Ingríd Betancourt : a lot of people believed that she was helping the guerilla, but she was still kidnapped (she was actually fighting against all sides at the same time). They were no birdwatchers, that's for sure. And even if they were completely innocent, even then they were just lucky to get caught by the DAS. They could have been kidnapped by the FARC, or murdered by the AUC.

- what the newspapers in Europe didn't report, was that a few months before their arrest, there were a lot of newsreports about foreign instructors. Part of those stories were fueled by the increasing number of successful bomb-attacks, which showed the the FARc was being helped. While there are mercenaries all over the country (last I heard there were 2 Belgians working for the AUC, and let's not forget the CIA), the Irish were always on the top of the list, both republicans and royalists. Maybe true, maybe not, but it would be no real surprise that some elements are doing it.

- a few months ago, there was a newspaper report of a guy wanted to testify that he was trained by Irish IRA instructors (although probaly not those 3). Because the DAS put out a huge reward, he escaped form the FARC, but was murdered by the FARC before he could make a full statement. I don't know if this story is true, but it wouldn't be too surprising : the FARc is powerful enough to do a stunt like that.

- even if the DAS would find evidence, they might cover it up, because the FARC would take revenge. Yes, this is right : the Colombian people accuse the FARC and the DAS to work together. The DAS won't be doing everything what's in their reach to destroy the guerilla. The reason ? Simple: the drugsmaffia, AUC and FARC have more or less divided the drugstrade between them. The Colombian people don't trust anyone of them, and that's part of the reason that they voted for Uribe. Uribe is supposed to force the police, army and DAS to wrok harder against the guerilla, because they haven't done enough in the past.

- the Colombian governement can't have a diplomatic incident with the Irish or any other European governement.

- why has the English governement told us what they know about those 3 ? If they knew that they were members of the IRA (or not), they would have leaked it a long time ago.

My prediction : the Colombian governement won't be able to find evidence, and in case they find it, they'll cover it up. The results is that the Irish 3 get released, and everybody thinks that they've won. But it's really the Colombian governement that will win : they'll use that release to have goodwill from the Europeans. The governement will use it to put the DAS in a bad light (for the Colombian public, they failed to find the evidence), to have more control over them in the future. And another purpose of this trial is to send the IRA a message not to mess in Colombian affairs, and to the FARC not to hire any foreign instructors anymore (they used to be trained by Cubans, later by various mercenaries).

Oh, by the way, my wife told me that the Colombian people don't really care if innocent people were sent to jail or worse. They're pretty used to that already (and my family had experienced that too). That might be cruel, but that's how life has become after 40 years of civil war. They're much more concerned with the ties between IRA and the FARC, not those 3 people (whether they're instructors or innocent tourists). The message to the IRA and FARC is very important, more important than a few innocent bystanders.

And a last message from her : she can't understand why we call those people 'freedom fighters' and many people in Europe have rather romantic views about them (and she means all of them : republicans and royalists, left and right). She has lived all her life in the middle of the warzone, and she has seen dozens of friends and family dead : her ex brother-in-law was machine-gunned by 250 bullets by the DAS because he was the head of the local communist party, her brother was killed 1 month ago, because he refused to join the AUC, ... I myself has witnessed an attack of the AUC in a poor neighborhood, and I've seen dozens of dead and injured people carried in the hospital. But nothing was printed in the press. These people are not freedom fighters, they're terrorists and criminals. Point. There's no excuse in helping them.

As I wrote before, the Irish 3 are safe, and will return to Ireland, because it will be solved politically. But the Colombian people will continue to suffer.

by some so blind they will not see Tue Nov 19, 2002 00:30

the belgian's comments are the only ones that have a ring of truth to them.

by cleo mcwilliams Mon Nov 18, 2002 23:51

every irish/northern irish person has a right to act individually on their own voalition. if i want to travel to latin america i will. if i want to express an opinion in support of the beseiged colombian POOR, unions, community activists and peasant wimin and children i will and against the BRUTAL right wing JUNTA, i can. i have the right to free speech and support POLITICALLY those people i choose to support. becos i support someone POLITICALLY this is a totally different thing from physically training them. The 3 irish men in colombia, may have supported FARC and the colombian POOR POLITICALLY, this is a totally different thing from physically training left wing guerillas. The 3 irish men are being held, not for physically training FARC guerillas and the colombian POOR, but for supporting FARC and the colombian poor POLITICALLY. there is no forensic evidence against the 3 irish men.

by iosaf Mon Nov 18, 2002 23:02

bring them back home.
they are citizens of a neutral country in a war zone, one the countries involved in "the international war against terrorism".
Regardless of the state documentation that a person may carry they are tried on certain documentation issued by certain states. Their identites have not been claimed by the Columbian state it has been documented by the Irish state.
Hello? ~~neutral Ireland?

by Benny B Mon Nov 18, 2002 21:57

Why is it that when Human Rights are mentioned in the context of republicans the Irish Left manages to run a mile. Over the years how many editorials, stories about Iraq, Chiapas, Afghanistan or Seattle have u read in left wing periodicals.
However when three Irishmen are arrested and no credible eveidence presented and tried by the media they are ignored. Justin makes a good point about point scoring. These mens lives are in danger.

by jenny b Mon Nov 18, 2002 19:00

THERE IS NO FORENSIC evdidence against the 3 men in Colombia. the arrest of the Colombia 3, is yet another witch hunt/propaganda stunt, organised by the likes of tony blur/alan b'stard and fascist maniac Bush, lickle davy trimble and co, to try and demonise northern irish and irish people travelling abroad and in latin america. All 3 men have alibis, which can be corroborated by others, Niall Connolly, was at a function in Cuba, attended by other irish politicians, when the Colombian JUNTA, say he was in Colombia trainning working class peasants. Colombia to many people is another El salvador. The ordinary Colombian peasants have endured so much, at the hands of the right wing JUNTA, unions leaders and community activists, men, wimin and children are rountinely murdered, tortured and beaten by the repressive state junta, as the extreme right wing neo nazi JUNTA try to break the spirit of the poor.

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Mon Nov 18, 2002 18:41 migh_nuad at yahoo dot com

Difficult to know where to begin with the inaccuracies and outright lies but I'll get a start on it.

1. The men were travelling on false documentation. They do not deny this. All three of the men were in the FARC zone. None of them deny this. Going to the FARC zone is not a crime and a variety of people, journalists, bankers, royalty, Vatican representatives do so on a regular basis. Posession of a false passport is certainly a crime but all three men were traveling in a desperately dangerous country and are known republicans so travelling on false papers was not so unusual.

2. In answer to the Belgian lad, I happened to be in Brussels on other business when the Bring Them Home Campaign made one of several trips there. MEPs from several different countries have pledged their support and provided the Campaign with valuable help.

3. There is no evidence that the men trained FARC guerillas. Colombian evidence that the men were spotted at FARC training camps sits uneasily with the fact that all three of them can prove they were elsewhere on several of those dates. The men claim they were there to observe the Colombian Peace Process. Republicans have visited coutnries all over the world to observe and assist in peace negotiations.

4. Forensics tests on all three men proved negative, twice, until an illegal (By Colombian law) test was carried out by the American embassy.

5. Colombia's human rights record is well known and the trial has been irretrievably prejudiced by comments by government representatives. There is a very real danger of them not getting a fair trial and an especially real danger of them not surviving to see that trial considering their conditions.

6. This is a Human Rights issue. Many people opposed to republicanism, opposed to Sinn Féin and opposed to the IRA recognise this. Supporting the Colombia 3 does not mean you support the IRA or SF any more than supporting the Birmingham Six or the Guildford 4 meant you supported the IRA, an accusation oft made by unthinking people back then.

7. Lastly, I would urge again those people and groups who tried to score political points by claiming, wrongly, that SF abandonded the men, to put, literally, their money where their mouth is and help out the campaign.

by Jimmy Higgins Sun Nov 17, 2002 23:58

Dont waste your time with these guys. They dont deserve to call themselves Irish, it's an insult to all those who support peace. Lets hope they end up like Ms Hindley.

by Des Sun Nov 17, 2002 23:00

If those three guys imprisoned in Columbia are guilty? then so are Carter, Reagan and co. who played a major role in the genocide in central america, anyone remember the Rio Sumpil massacre, FORTY THOUSAND PEOPLE DIED COURTESY OF WASHINGTON AND THE CIA. ANY REMEMBER THE DIRTY WAR IN ARGENTINA, Guatamala etc. etc. the people imprisoned in Bogota are innocents abroad when compared with Carter, Reagan and co.
My best wishes to the people who will be observers at their "trial", good job they are not depending on the "labour party" to be of any assistance.

by Keith Sun Nov 17, 2002 15:41

Q. Three Sinn Fein/IRA guys, with expert knowledge of explosives/terrorist engineering, hanging out with FARC carrying false passports?

A. Guilty as sin
B. Birdwatchers

Answer: A
Result = A long stretch in a crappy Columbian jain = justice

by jrh Sun Nov 17, 2002 14:42

I'm a Belgian, married to a Colombiana. Last time that I was in Colombia (March), I was in a remote area, where no tourists or foreigners were seen for a long time. The first question anyone asked me, was that I didn't was a Gringo (North-American) or Irish. In both cases, my life would be in danger, and I'm not talking about the DAS (secret police), the Army or the AUC (paramilitaries). I'm talking about the common people. Everyone is really mad about those 3 Irish people, and wants them in prison or hang. My family has been hit hard by the civilian war - many people are dead : killed by the army, by the FARC, by the AUC, by drugsdealers, by common criminals, ...

I know that the Colombian police doesn't have a good human rights record (it would be very easy to create fake evidence, they've done it before), and that those 3 are already convicted by the Colombian media, but I can't understand why you would assume that they're innocent. What were there doing in that country after all - tourism in San Vincente del Caguan? With fake passports? Don't insult my intelligence.

The only thing that I can't understand is what their connection is to the IRA. Everyone seems to assume there is one, but I haven't seen any vidence by the police. On the other hand, I haven't seen any evidence presented by the English governement either - they would have done that, if they knew them. But most surprising, nobody from Ireland tried to claim that they were innocent either. All I read was that the Colombian justice was corrupt, and how they should be returned to Ireland as fast as possible. That's not a defence, that's trying to get the easy way out of this problem, without admitting that there might be contacts between the FARc and the IRA.

For me it's very clear : those 3 were not tourists, they were instructors for the FARC, and they thought the guerilla how to make mortars and how to build car-bombs with an old van and a few gas cylinders. Those techniques were not known in Colombia until 2 years ago. And the FARC paid them with cocaine. Something the IRA also has experience with, to help finance their rebellion (and the protestant paramilitaries too !).

Note: I was contacted by a Belgian member of the European parliament in late April (when I was back from Colombia), who I know very well, and who has helped with the peace-talks between Colombia and the FARC. He told me that his fraction was asked by Sinn Féin to help those Irish 3. I told him what the Colombian people thought about them, and that I thought that they were really guilty. If they were innocent, the'll have to prove that in court. After asking advice to people who know Colombia a bit better, ALL fractions in the european parliament refused to ask the Colombian governement to release them. Sinn Féin was on their own. The trial will be watched very careful ofcourse (this trip, whether you're against it or not, is part of that), but they will stand trial. And if they're found guilty, they will be convicted. That's justice.

We still have to watch carefully that they get a fair trial, but I'm sure that Uribe will take care of that - there are too many people watching.

by $ Sun Nov 17, 2002 11:57

nor do they have enough clean water
nor do they have enough food
nor do they have a hope of their children growing up to a better world.
nor do they see an end in sight to US intervention in their country which has taken the form of covert and overt military operations.
nor do they have a hope of enjoying the revenues from their country´s extensive oil resources.
nor do they even hold a candle to pray that some day the collusion of narco-traffic and tabacco sumgglers and interventionists will allow a free and non-corrupt state to begin.

Most of the Columbian nationals who live outside of Columbia do so on false papers or by marrying "1st world citizens".
That is normal.
That is how the world works.

The columbian people don´t like how the world works.
Nor do many others.

=Solidarity with the Columbian people.

by Why? Sat Nov 16, 2002 23:33

Well, if they weren't in Columbia with FALSE PASSPORTS in a FARC CONTROLLED AREA, they wouldn't be in the mess they're currently in now. Remember that FARC mortared a church and murdered over 100 people a few months ago. The murderous technology used to murder these innocent people had never been used by FARC until these 3 men came along - it was only after the IRA, sorry, "Columbia" 3 came along did they suddenly figure out how to use mortars...

They may not get a fair trial in Columbia. If that is so, then you should be campaigning for a trial in a neutral country.

THERE IS NO WAY THEY SHOULD BE BROUGHT HOME AS FREE MEN, WITHOUT CHARGE OR TRIAL.