mmmmmmmm Shannon mmmmmmmm How to get there?

by Andrew Thu Nov 14, 2002 14:03

I'm not aware that the IWAM has made any decision in relation the Shannon demo on the 8th. I'd certainly hope that they would decide to not only support it but also to run buses to it - the Dublin demonstration on the 7th would be a great opportunity to sell tickets and encourage as many as possible to go.

by Curious Thu Nov 14, 2002 14:22

Did the libertarian/anarchist gathering in Belfast that organised the Shannon demo agree to support the previously arranged National Demonstration on December 7th to US Embassy?

Did they offer to provide buses to that event?

Or did they oganise the Sunday event to counterpose to the IAWM National Demo?

by Amused as fcuk Thu Nov 14, 2002 14:27

Get off your arse and organise something worthwhile. Why don't you mobilise the great forces of the WSM and put on a bus from major towns where you have a (ahem) presence?

by Andrew Thu Nov 14, 2002 14:56

Really this is a pretty silly example of cutting off your nose to spite your face. The attitude that 'I'm not supporting that demo because I don't like who is organising it' will be very harmful to the anti war movements in Ireland. I wasn't in Belfast so I can't tell you what was decided there but I can say in Dublin we are supporting and taking part in the IAWM demo on the Saturday.

As to the two demos being called at the same time my understanding is the IAWM date was decided on the Thursday night before the Grassroots Gathering but no body at the gathering was aware it had been called when they set the date for the 8th. So the clash is not deliberate on either part - in any case as they are on consecutive days there is no real reason why one should reduce the numbers on the other, if anything the opposite should be the case.

Anyway the main point is that people involved with either anti war movement should be supporting the work of each other. The anonymous sectarian sniping above does no one any favours.

by Chekov - WSM Thu Nov 14, 2002 15:00

There is absolutely no reason why these two protests, in Dublin on the 7th and Shannon on the 8th, should be seen to compete with each other. In fact I'd say that they should feed off each others' energy. Rather than seeing them as mutually opposed we can see them as two strands of the same overall movement. On the 7th we will get to hopefully mobilise a large number of people, many of them new to demonstrations, to take to the streets of Dublin. This can be valuable as it will give us a sense of belonging to a large oppositional movement, not just isolated dissidents, and it can show the government just how unpopular their quiet support for the war is. The Shannon demonstration, the following day, will hopefully show the government that a significant number of people are willing to disrupt Ireland's practical aid to the war and put themselves on the line by breaking the law and showing the government that we won't just idly sit back and let them kill countless innocents.

It is important to remember that the capacity for a social movement to effect practical change is a function not just of the number of people taking part, but also of what they are willing to do. 10,000 people marching in Dublin might alarm the powers that be, but 10,000 people occupying Shannon airport would make them shit themselves and leave them with little choice but to stop the military use of the airport. It is the task of all people who genuinelly wish to stop this barbaric war, not only to try to mobilise as many people as possible, but also to convince them of the most effective tactics to pursue. It is hard to argue that taking direct action in Shannon isn't more effective than marching in Dublin, given the same level of participation

The Grassroots Gathering which called the demonstration for Shannon on December 8th was not aware of the IAWM meeting for the 7th since it had not yet been announced (it was made public only after the Grassroots Gathering) and therefore could not take any position, supportive, neutral or hostile. However several of the groups and individuals which make up the GG will support the demonstration on the 7th. I can only really speak for the WSM here since I don't know what the others positions are, but we are certainly taking part in the march, urging others to do the same, and we will publicise it in whatever ways we can. I sincerely hope that the IAWM will take the same stance towards the demo on the 8th.

To be honest I think that most people who are against the war would agree with me that there should be no counterposing of direct action versus marching as mutually exclusive tactics. There are certainly some within the IAWM who are suspicious of anything that they can't control and there are some within the direct action camp who don't appreciate the necessity for mobilising massive numbers of non-activists if we are to have an impact. However, I'd say that the vast majority of those taking part in either anti-war event, like me, would be delighted if both were succesful. If there is a large turnout on the 7th and a succesful action on the 8th, without any massive infighting or denunciations, the government is going to start getting scared. On the other hand if we succeed in splitting ourselves into two mutually exclusive movements, they'll be delighted. If they can ensure that the majority of people never consider going beyond marching then it should be easy for them to isolate and criminalise those people who are willing to go further and risk more, and it will take an awful lot of marchers (I'd say 100's of thousands) to stop their support for this war.

So for all those who go on about the need for unity, here's your chance to put it into effect, we may have diversity of tactics, but we have unity in purpose. Let's make both events as succesful as possible.

by iosaf Thu Nov 14, 2002 15:32 barcelona

Two mobilisations of protesters in different geographic locations mean two corresponding mobilisations of security forces.
The protesters thus spread RTE and Unison.ie and the Gardaí thin. This is tactically excellent.

One of the lines from a spoof Reclaim the Streets! newspaper in London last century put it simply...[I´m paraphrasing from memory]

"if you go to one demonstration very good the authorities can deal with that, what they can´t deal with is building and sustained pressure"

Two mobilisations will also mean developing collectives in different places = decentralised disorganistion = excellence and effectiveness.

Protest and mobilisation does not allways mean marching. The last mass-mobilisation in Barcelona was against the war in Iraq, and we chose the Sunday when the hour changed. (went back) thus the people who had been mobilised (which means encouraged to make their mandate clear by "reclaim the street" arrived over a two hour period. This confusion meant lots of people more effectively disrupting the normal life of the city.
This was symptomatic of a developing approach to mass-mobilisation in Europe, if we encourage a thousand people to go out on the street, can they not be more effective in their presence than merely forming a walking block, which on average only delays traffic for an hour. It seems to me and others that one thousand people on the street clearly showing with poster/badge/costume/symbols they carry (bread, neutral constitution, rice, flowers) why they are on the street are a more effective representation of what is a "democratic" mandate and right. As I quipped on the figures attending Florence :

arguments starting about numbers at the demo...
by linking Sat, Nov 9 2002, 6:19pm

is it a few hundred thousands?
or is it a million?
ar is it just a few hundred very clever anarchists with paper maché models pretending to be lots of people DeValera 1916 Boland bakery style?
PandaBear has been checking the weather satelites and goes for close to a million.

related link: barcelona.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=29148&group=webcast

marching down the street in formation is very very last century. Revolution always has the ir of carnival.

by Jimmy Thu Nov 14, 2002 15:35

First of all, I'd like to reiterate the statements that nobody at the Grassroots Gathering knew that there was a march organised for the 7th December in Dublin. In fact the weekend of the 23/24 November was considered but dismissed because it clashed with the SWP's Marxism weekend in Dublin. Also, a member of the IAWM executive from Cork was not aware on the Tuesday following the Thursday decision of the IAWN that any protest date had been set for Dublin.

Most of the people who attended the GG from Cork are also members of the Cork Peace Alliance. The CPA will be supporting both protests. Let us make the most of the weekend and get as many people attending both events as possible.

There is a protest organised for Cork this Saturday at 2pm. The format will be a little different than the usual. All welcome. Check it out.

by Ed Thu Nov 14, 2002 15:40

i have a feeling that this time round at shannon the police are going to be far more prepared for the possibility of direct action taking place(and possibly more aggressive) so it is important that there is some solidarity amongest the protesters in this regard. lets unite against the forces of the new world order not each other!

by Tim Hourigan Thu Nov 14, 2002 16:47 tim_hourigan at hotmail dot com

We have to keep focused on the real problem here.

There's no point in-fighting. We are all autonomous people and can represent ourselves.

As stated before the demos on 7th and 8th were called independently of each other. I was in Belfast when the date for the Shannon demo was decided and nobody mentioned anything about the Dublin demo.

If you are going to come along to the Shannon demo, and haven't been there before I think it would be a good idea if you got some sort of briefing beforehand.

I want to organise some workshops beforehand on how to protest non-violently.

We can expect a large police presence at this demo, and we should all go into it with our eyes open, and not reactionary.
Everyone was fairly disciplined at the last demo.
granted there was no discussion on tactics, but no one offered violence, or petty damage even with all the excitement and the police dogs, and the unhelpful attitude of some members of the garda (e.g. refusing to allow children in to use the toilet)

a friend has also offered to do legal support for people if they decide to be arrestible (which is entirely an individual choice) we can do bust sheets and we are currently looking for a lawyer to be on call if needed.

if the groups who expect to be at the demo mail me, I will try to arrange for some legal stuff to be sent to them, including some bust sheets, some of the relvant bye laws and a map of Shannon including the airport and the Garda Station.

If we're going to have an effective protest we have to some prep work. not much, but it's important.
Be clear in your head and your spirit.
Know your objectives, your limits and be calm when others try to provoke you. (The media likes that type of footage)

Regards,

Tim

by kahootz Thu Nov 14, 2002 16:56

Sunday December 8 is also the End of Days for Saddam. Synchronicity...

by Robert the Glove - Belfast Anti War Thu Nov 14, 2002 17:38

For Info.
There is also a march and rally in belfast on the Sat 7/12. Just so people don't have to travel to far to the demo in Dublin, which we also fully support. Speakers will include Des Wilson, Eamon McCann, and more yet to be confirmed.
It starts at 2:00 at the Art College. Call 0776 237 93 43 after 6pm for details.

by Anti War Activist Thu Nov 14, 2002 17:43

This thread began because someone tried to suggest it was a scandal that the Irish Anti War Movement is not providing buses for the anarchist protest the following day.

The decision to hold a march to the US Embassy which can mobilise thousands of people was taken by the broad-based iAWM at a alrge meeting following the September 28th 3,000-strong demo. The steering committee shortly after announced the details and had posters and leaflets printed.

Those anarchists and libertarians who organised their own protest for the following day in Shannon after the announcement of the December 7th IAWM march plead ignorance.

Well, if they hadn't systematically boycotted the Irish Anti War Movement and sent a delegate along like everybody else they would have known and could have avoided any clash. (Personally I find it quite hard to believe that none of their number got wind of the protest by the time their anarchist and libertarian Belfast "gathering" took place.)

The suspicion that the Sunday protest was organised as a spoiling tactic is increased when the anarchists in Cork bounced the Cork Peace Alliance into deciding effectively NOT to support the National US Embassy protest and instead send a bus to Shannon.

Naturally most Anti War activists are neither anarchists or libertarians and were therefore did not participate in the "gathering" that organised the Sunday Shannon protest.

Most activists find the broad-based Irish Anti War Movement the vehicle for organising against THE REAL ENEMY-- BUSH!!

Personally I will be putting my energies into building the large-scale National protest in Dublin to the US Embassy.

While wishing every success to the Shannon protest, building one demo at a time seems to me to be the serious way of fighting against Bush's war. If we can organise even more buses this time to the Dublin protest we will be doing pretty well.

I am not surprised therefore that the IAWM is not taking time off from building this important event to organise buses for the half-arsed anarchist protest the next day.

If the "libertarians" would grow up and stop playing silly games perhaps all our efforts would be enhanced.

by Clare - Gluaiseacht, NUIG ecosoc Thu Nov 14, 2002 17:43 clare at compsoc dot nuigalway dot ie Galway

............And addressing the initial question -
Walk
Cycle
Run
Borrow a car
Share a car
Check out http://www.buseireann.ie/site/home/
Organise your own bus
Check out http://www.irishrail.ie/home/
Hitch
There may also be some direct flights from Dublin!! (not that I'd encourage that kinda thing!)

Really if you travelling from a large town or city in Ireland at least you have some options...

Clare

by Ray Thu Nov 14, 2002 18:03

When people criticise the IAWM or the SWP they're told not to be sectarian, and that everyone must unite against the real enemy.
When people were critical of how the last Shannon protest, they were told to organise their own demo.
So the Grassroots Gathering organises an anti-war protest and what's the response?
"If the "libertarians" would grow up and stop playing silly games perhaps all our efforts would be enhanced."

Its all in the way you tell them...

by Observer - Not anarchist Thu Nov 14, 2002 18:20

Q. Why everybody hates the SWP?
A. Read the rant above.

by Chekov Thu Nov 14, 2002 18:54

Anonymous anti-war activist (hands up anybody who reckons that this brave soul might be an SWP full timer), you are a disgrace. Face it, two demos have been called and it's in all our interests that both succeed. Maybe you think that asking the people who organised one of them to "grow up and stop playing silly games" is helpful to cooperation, but it's hard to see how. Also insinuating that the organisers of the Shannon demo are lying ("I find it quite hard to believe that none of their number got wind of the protest by the time their anarchist and libertarian Belfast "gathering" took place") is hardly helpful. Nor by the way, is the snide nature of putting the word 'gathering' in quotes - we'll call our meetings whatever the fuck we like, whether any "party" likes it or not. Several people in the above debate have stated that nobody at GG had heard of the IAWM demo. I can confirm that we initially considered a date that clashed with Marxism but as soon as somebody pointed this out, we rearranged not wishing to be seen to be divisive.

So, you brave person, would you do us the favour of answering a few questions.

1) You say that "The decision to hold a march to the US Embassy which can mobilise thousands of people was taken by the broad-based iAWM at a alrge meeting following the September 28th 3,000-strong demo. The steering committee shortly after announced the details and had posters and leaflets printed." Where was this announced and how was it publicised? How many people attended this meeting? How many non-SWP members? How come some members of the IAWM commitee didn't know about it after the GG had called their demo?

2) You say "Well, if they hadn't systematically boycotted the Irish Anti War Movement and sent a delegate along like everybody else they would have known and could have avoided any clash." For a start this isn't true, the anti-authoritarian/direct action branch of the anti-war movement has not systematically boycotted the IAWM. If you have forgotten what happened before last December's first Shannon demo, I'm sure that somebody can remind you. Also I'd be interested to know how many other groups regularly do send a delegate to the IAWM meetings apart from the SWP. On the way back from the last Shannon demo one Green party member claimed that she had sometimes been the only non-SWP member present at IAWM meetings.

3) You say that "The suspicion that the Sunday protest was organised as a spoiling tactic is increased when the anarchists in Cork bounced the Cork Peace Alliance into deciding effectively NOT to support the National US Embassy protest and instead send a bus to Shannon." What makes you think that this was an anarchist plot? Do you think that the Cork activists shouldn't have the right to decide for themselves which form of protest to concentrate on? How does organising a bus for the National demonstration at Shannon mean that they are not supporting the Dublin demo? A CPA member has above stated that the CPA is supporting the Dublin demo. Is (s)he lying?

4) You say that "Naturally most Anti War activists are neither anarchists or libertarians and were therefore did not participate in the "gathering" that organised the Sunday Shannon protest." - there were approximately 100 people present at the session in Belfast which decided on the Shannon protest, were there more activists present at the IAWM meeting which called the Dublin demo? Or what are you suggesting?

by maalox - underhand anarchist demo-wrecking pro-bush conspiracy Thu Nov 14, 2002 19:49 maalox at safe-mail dot net

"Well, if they hadn't systematically boycotted the Irish Anti War Movement and sent a delegate along like everybody else they would have known and could have avoided any clash."

If the aim of the IAWM is mass mobilisation then maybe the dates of demos should be advertised in public or even sent out on the mailing lists, rather than relying on people sending delegates to you in order to get the word out. If those making the decisions in the IAWM keep the date of the demo to themselves you can hardly blame others for not knowing about it. The decision at the GG was taken in good faith and, incidentally, was "systematically boycotted" by anyone who had knowlege of the date of the Dublin/Belfast marches. If only they'd sent a delegate...

I'm also assuming that the date had actually been set before the 25th Oct?

by Terry - AF and Glu. Thu Nov 14, 2002 19:49

“To be honest I think that most people who are against the war would agree with me that there should be no counterposing of direct action versus marching as mutually exclusive tactics. There are certainly some within the IAWM who are suspicious of anything that they can't control and there are some within the direct action camp who don't appreciate the necessity for mobilising massive numbers of non-activists if we are to have an impact”

I’m shocked and dismayed that this was written by an anarchist, if I indeed the meaning I derive from it is the intended meaning. The implication to me, seems to be, that direct action has less of chance of mobilising ‘non-activists’ than meandering does. Therefore meandering has it’s place.

Much like Leftist claims that direct action is elitist.

In fact at the last day in Shannon, where there was a direct action, attendees included people who had never taken part in a demo. of any nature before. Similarly the most direct action orientated group in this island, Gluaiseacht, is largely composed of people who were recently ‘non-activists’.

Or we can look at the success of the Campaign for Free Education in UCD, mostly based around a mobilisation of ‘non-activists’, a mobilisation only possible because of it’s orientation toward direct action.

Cause many folk know the score and know that asking nicely get’s you nowhere in this world.

You don’t need to read Malatesta or Ruhle to know this! Chekov, please tell me that I have picked up the wrong meaning from this.

The Anarchist Federation, in the latest issue of Resistance, has counter-posed protesting with direct action, basically cause we are honest and we openly say that the aim of the anti-war protests in Dublin is to recruit people into leftist parties and are totally pointless from the point of view of affecting government policy.

Only the truth is revolutionary, as I read somewhere once upon a time, and the above is my honest opinion.

I don’t think any organisation deriving it’s practise in part from ‘The Platform’, and ‘The Manifesto’ could fail to openly state what they think of any ‘tactic’ (which is crediting those events with a name they do not deserve).

It does not follow that we “don't appreciate the necessity for mobilising massive numbers of non-activists if we are to have an impact”.

I myself, for example, have been making posters, postering, organising film showings and a meeting, writing a leaflet and a couple of articles, with the intent of mobilising people for Dec. 8th. I hope to be doing much more in the weeks ahead with the same goal.

On the issue of unity, well really folks how many times does the SWP have to sabotage democracy or direct action, or subordinate everything to it’s recruiting, before ‘separate and avoid’ is seen as preferable.

Democracy is not a question of tactics, it is a question of principle.

It should turn the stomach of anyone with a shred of morality to even be in the same building as followers of the regime which murdered millions in the Ukrainne and Russia and the Caucasas through taking foodstuffs from them at gunpoint.

Finally as a point of fact, the leftist morons who post to this site have a regular habit of assuming that everybody they don’t like or everyone that doesn’t like them is an anarchist , the latest is the Grassroots Gathering was an anarchist event and Dec. 8th is to be an anarchist event. This is not the case. Neither were organised by the anarchist movement exclusively and in fact in regard to both anarchists are very much the minority.

by Phuq Hedd Thu Nov 14, 2002 19:51

I wouldn't be surprised if the original poster "Boys with their toys" and "Anti war activist" are both the same person. "Anti war activist" claims all sorts of weird stuff about some of the organisers of the Shannon, Dec.8th, 2pm demonstration. The fact is that the first that most people heard of it was THIS post

http://www.indymedia.ie/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi?id=17162&start=90

on indymedia.ie by Paul Kinsella of the IAWM. He says that he saw poster up around Trinity and that was the first he heard of it. Now, if a member of the IAWM hasn't heard of the demo then how can someone that isn't a member?

The most negative criticism of the Dec7th listen-to-celebrity-politicians-but-not-at-the-actual-place-where-there -the-USAF-is-being-serviced-contrary-to-our-constitution-march were myself and later on someone from the AFI. It should be noted that the immediate reaction from Andrew(WSM) was to criticise this and to call for people to go to BOTH.

I may even end up doing both. I don't know yet. I don't really see the point of listening to some hack. I want to make an effective difference. I can do that by making the servicing of the USAF at Shannon too costly for our government.

I fully expect to see prosecutions taken against members of the government for their role in this and have no doubt that this could become a huge stick to beat the government with.

I have not decided whether or not I shall be involved in invasion of the airport to remove the challenge to our neutrality, or obstruction of the road, or whatever. I have decided that I want to discuss this with anyone else that turns up and to see what types of activity we can all agree upon. One thing I _won't_ be doing is listening to someone else tell me what to do, I'll be deciding _with_ them whether or not there's something we can do together.

In the meantime I can only assume that the "anti war activist" is some sort of screwball. I hope to be proven wrong by hearing the SWP and their IAWM front call for as many people as possible to take part in the Shannon,Dec8th,2pm demonstration.

by Jimmy Thu Nov 14, 2002 20:27

With regard to not sending delegates to the IAWM organising committee, I am familiar with a member of the organising committee who did not know of any Dublin march 5 days after it was supposedly agreed on the Thursday evening (and 2 days after the END of the grassroots gathering. How would any attendee of the GG know?

The Cork Peace Alliance unreservedly supports both protests. The anarchists in Cork did not bounce the CPA into deciding anything, they can make their own minds up. The CPA decided to organise a bus to Shannon because it is more in keeping with their goals. Many people in the CPA will attend both events.

It would be much appreciated if the IAWM would show a bit more support for the Shannon protest. All the contributors to this thread who are involved in organising the Shannon protest have given their full support for the Dublin march even if they disagree with the tactics. Could the IAWM do the same in the interests of solidarity with the people of Iraq?

by Observer Thu Nov 14, 2002 21:32

Anonymous anti-war activist (hands up anybody who reckons that this brave soul might be an SWP full timer)...

by Observer Thu Nov 14, 2002 21:47

someone who attended the same school of creative writing

by revolution Thu Nov 14, 2002 22:39

I heard that at one anti war protest in Dublin within the last year the anarchist block was larger than the SWP block. Therefore I think its about time the WSM took the chance to go it alone for the sake of all of our freedom from oppression of all sorts. Lets be honest anything yes anything that has any SWP involvement is doomed to failure because of their tactics and the "motivation" of their leaders.

As far asa I gathered from the GG in Belfast the demo was to be called by the grassroots network of peace activists with public meetings being held around the country by people who said they would do so around Belfast, followed by horizontal communication from delegates from these meetings.

Sure if that happens there will be 1000 people at Shannon;-)

by Violet C. Hazel - r-r-r-evolution Thu Nov 14, 2002 22:52

I think the idea that the WSM would go it alone would be contrary to what they said in this thread. They said that they want as many people as possible to go to both and theyre trying to get the SWP to cooperate in the interests of defeating the war. Now thats REAL unity!

by Boys with their toys Thu Nov 14, 2002 23:08

IAWN have not started organising any - demo is soon in grand scheme of things -

by Phuq Hedd Fri Nov 15, 2002 01:36

Has anyone actually seen an IAWM poster advertising the supposed Dec7th march? I haven't. Has anyone talked to an IAWM member who confirms any of this?

I find it hard to believe that there's an IAWM-organised march because no-one heard of it beforehand and their website as of 1 am on the 15th November has absolutely no information about this supposed march. Under "Important events" the items are:

November 16th 2pm
------------------------------------
Calendar
the Irish Anti-war community : Calendar

* 2pm Solidarity With Nonviolent Resistance, US Embassy

* post an item

To dig up information on an event that you missed, check the archives.
--------------------------------------

There is NOTHING else there.

Given the comments about how the Grassroots Gathering was supposed to have known about this beforehand it's interesting that the website still has no information about this supposedly widely disseminated information.

I am beginning to suspect the whole thing is a crock. I would welcome evidence that confirms/denies that there is a Dec7th march, that in the interests of unity and preventing the murder of Iraqi citizens that any pre-Dec8th demonstrations will encourage those that want to make a real contribution to stopping the war to go to Shannon on Dec 8th.

by Sarah Mellon Fri Nov 15, 2002 10:56

Terry, or Harry Pollitt whatever you are called.
I think its a bit extreme for your publication to say that marching is pointless because it is just used for recruitment purposes. Surely the main reason is to get the message across to the government that we are against war. If people from whatever left group wants to go round selling their literature and asking people to get involved, then let them, you can always say no.
As a leftist i am all for direct action - mass direct action is a brilliant spectacle. Surely marching can be seen as direct action as well as hopping fences and workplace occupations etc, anything that stops the status quo for a period of time.
As for you rant about not being in the same place as people who supported the bolsheviks, how do you go to uni?
Smiles

Sarah
(ex sf and swss)

by Andrew Fri Nov 15, 2002 11:26

I welcome Sarah's remarks above as being the first SWPer to come out in support of Shannon. The fact the obvious SWP anti-Shannon posts above it have been made from an anonymous source suggests they are intended to be deniabl. So if enough anti-war activists put pressure on the SWP they will probably also grudgingly support Shannon. BTW the current attitude is turning support for Shannon on the 8th into a chance for the non SWP people on the IAWM to prove its independence!

I strongly disagree with what Terry has posted about marches V direct action. He seems to reckon creating a mirror image of the (anonymous) SWP sectarianism is the best way of combatting them. I don't. But this debate between anarchists is already going on elsewhere (on the Irish Anarchism list at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irishanarchism ) so I won't repeat it here.

by Brian - AF (personal capacity) - Anarchist Federation Fri Nov 15, 2002 12:03

"I think its a bit extreme for your publication to say that marching is pointless because it is just used for recruitment purposes."
Every single demonstration I have attended in Dublin city that took the same route up and down O'Connell Street and then on to the Central Bank plaza for tea and scrumpets with Kevin Wingfield has been accompanied by "join us, join this, join that, give us your name and address, come to florence". So to claim to that marching is pointless as it is only used for recruitment purposes is perfectly within it's legitimacy considering my experience could well be attributed to everyone else who posts on this website and has attended one of these marches.
"Surely the main reason is to get the message across to the government that we are against war."

The government know, they know that the vast majority of people on this island reject it's participation in this run up to war and the use of Shannon airport. Do they care? No!
The government dont pay attention to the regular route of up and down O'Connell Street and onto the Central Bank Plaza except for the times when the IAWM wants to bring people site seeing (US Embassy or the Dail). What the government will pay attention to is direct action, personally (this is only my personal opinion, i dont speak for everyone in the AF, but im sure most will agree) I dont believe that a march of 1500 people ending with the usual speeches by the usual suspects and then off home would have greater impact on Ireland's war effort than 150 people invading the runway at Shannon and surrounding a USAF plane and preventing it from say, being accessed by USAF personnell.
I agree with the article in Resistance, that "Enough people in Shannon, enough times, inflicting enough costs on the government and there would be no more military re-fuelling. Just as enough people not paying the water charges had them scrapped."
Personally I find the idea of Direct Action more empowering than going walkies with the SWP for the 100th time.

"If people from whatever left group wants to go round selling their literature and asking people to get involved, then let them, you can always say no."
There is nothing wrong with distributing material, but think about this, carefully now, when you are protesting in Dublin, your there for a reason, you dont agree with the government, you want to make your voice hear (but it wont be), but in the frenzy of all this protesting, some member of some party is asking you to sign up to a mailing list, give them your address & name, join there party, attend there conference. Do you believe that this will draw people into a demonstration? I know countless people who have been put off demo's after on attendance for a) being asked to buy something at and anti-capitalist demo b) having to listen to speeches for 1 hr c) bumping into the sparts and d) most importantly being haunted to join some group over and over!

"As a leftist i am all for direct action - mass direct action is a brilliant spectacle. Surely marching can be seen as direct action as well as hopping fences and workplace occupations etc, anything that stops the status quo for a period of time."
It's good to see you support direct action and yes it is a brilliant spectacle, but does direct action get winded up by the SWP politburo because they want to have their speeches?
Does direct action involve walking around in circles, listening to "hey-ho, war must go" over and over from Brid Smith on the megaphone?

by IAWM Supporter Fri Nov 15, 2002 12:06

The GG has called a protest in Shannon on Sunday 8th. Clearly it is up to them to make the necessary arrangements (buses, tickets, etc).

It is stupid for their supporters to demand the Irish Anti War Movement makes the practical arrangements, organises buses, etc when they,the IAWM, is concentrating on its previously organised National Demonstration on December 7th?

Supporters of the Irish Anti War Movement in this thread have so far as I have seen *not* told people not to go on the smaller Sunday protest in Shannon (despite their understandable suspicions of the motivcation of the GG protest).

So there are no grounds for a rant against the Irish Anti War Movement and its supporters. (Even the person who posted a critical posting on this tread "Anti War Activist" and who has been characterised as hostile to the GG protest by various anarchists here, wished the Shannon protest success, but said, very honestly that he/she would be concentrating on the Dublin protest)

There is no need for any ill feeling or flames or rants. All that is necessary is that the GG body takes responsibility for the protest it has called as the IAWM is taking responsibility for its protest.

by Sarah Mellon - none Fri Nov 15, 2002 12:07

I am ex sf and ex swss (sorry if post wasn't clear)

by Andrew Fri Nov 15, 2002 12:54

At the last IAWM demo at Shannon a number of the groups and individuals involved in the gathering arranged cars and buses to travel to Shannon for the protest. In short we supported it not only by being there but also by helping others to travel there.

This time the same groups have already made and are making arrangements to travel to Shannon. But because we don't want a harmful split in the movement we are suggesting that the IAWM ALSO might like to do as some of us did last time and help get people along. I would have thought that anyone opposed to the war would recognise the logic in this - it's in everyones interest that every demonstration is as large as possible regardless of who is calling it.

Right now instead what we see here are a number of anonymous people accompanied (unfortunatly) by a couple of anarchists who want to engineer a situation where the two demonstrations are seen as mutually exclusive. This only makes sense in the background of a wider political agenda.

The couple of anarchists posting here who are arguing against the Dublin march have at least honestly presented their arguments and it is clear what organisation they come from (AFI). It's unfortunate that those on the other side choose to engage in weasel words from anonymoty (although its pretty clear what political party they are involved with).

Don't talk of unity when you are seeking to provoke a split and bad feeling!

by pat c Fri Nov 15, 2002 13:33

look, i think its best if we accept that both protests were organised in good faith and both deserve to be supported.

it was legitimate for andrew to enquire as to what arrangements the iawm were making to get people to the 8/12 protest.

it was equally legitimate for the iawm to enquire as to what arrangements grass roots were making to get people to the 7/12 protest.

things would now proceed more smoothly if both organisations listed details of work being done to build these demos. how people can get actively involved etc.

perhaps if grassroots & iawm would each do a new seperate (yes, i'd prefer a joint one, but i dont think thats likely) posting of their schedule of activities we could get away from the bickering.

by Jimmy Fri Nov 15, 2002 17:39

What most of the attendees of grassroots gathering who are contributing to this thread (with a couple of exceptions) are doing for the Dec 7th march is that they are fully endorsing it for starters and they will be advertising it on their posters for the Dec 8th action. With regards to transport, there are a couple of CPA people in Cork going up who may be using their own vehicles - if they are they would be saying it at the CPA meetings and arrangements would be made to try and accommodate everyone who wants to travel. A number of IAWM members participate in the CPA and would have the same access to the transport, such as it is, as the rest of the CPA.
I'm not sure what happened at the last CPA meeting but previously there was a suggestion of a bus from Cork to Dublin on Saturday and on to Limerick on Saturday evening, back to Cork on Sunday. Possible avenue for co-operation here?

by Chekov Fri Nov 15, 2002 18:33

"I’m shocked and dismayed that this was written by an anarchist, if I indeed the meaning I derive from it is the intended meaning. The implication to me, seems to be, that direct action has less of chance of mobilising ‘non-activists’ than meandering does. Therefore meandering has it’s place."

How many people have ever taken part in a mass direct action on a political issue like this who have never meandered? Although one does not necessarily lead to the other, almost nobody ever takes part in a direct action without having taken part in a meander or two beforehand. Would it were different, but hey that's the world. Most people who are new to politics find the prospect of walking through dublin for half an hour on a Saturday afternoon a daunting enough task, how much more daunting must it be to sit on a bus all day with a bunch of strangers to then alight into a confusing and dangerous situation where police lurk all around. Marches can be, and often are, an important first step in the politicisation of people. By partaking in a march many people feel that, for the first time, they have engaged in political life. The smart and honest ones generally see the limitations before too long, but there's only one way to learn this.

by Terry - AF and Glu. Fri Nov 15, 2002 18:52

"I strongly disagree with what Terry has posted about marches V direct action. He seems to reckon creating a mirror image of the (anonymous) SWP sectarianism is the best way of combatting them."

Sectarian implies a commonality which does not exist. People who know me (like Andrew) know I'm not sectarian. For instance I distribute the publications of other anarchist organisations (including his) where a commonailty exists, despite political differences. If I was sectarian I would not do this.

I'm openly hostile to Leninism, for a number reasons, (one) anyone with an ounce of human feeling ought to be hostile towards the followers of an ideology which has murdered millions the world over, (two) cause I'm honest, I'm not going to pretend to have anything but contempt for Leninism.

by Terry - AF and Glu. Fri Nov 15, 2002 18:57

"almost nobody ever takes part in a direct action without having taken part in a meander or two beforehand"

Let us not make a virtue of our weakness.

The point is direct action is not necessarily less open to popular participation than meandering.

As for the police, you saw the crowd at the demo. after May's RTS, they didn't turn up cause fear is the first emotion they feel when they see a pig uniform.

by Phuq Hedd Fri Nov 15, 2002 20:13

Here's the website:
http://irishantiwar.org/

Where's the announcement of the Dec7th march? Is this not an "upcoming event".

by Emanon Fri Nov 15, 2002 20:42

Behold the spectacle of anarchists fighting it out above. These people believe they have something usaeful to say about organising against George W Bush. HA!

by Harry Pollitt Sat Nov 16, 2002 01:53

Anarchy: The crazy idea that people are allowed to have different opinions, debate, discuss and work together where they agree.

by Volkster Sat Nov 16, 2002 05:31

It's disgusting to see the anarchists discuss stuff and I bet that afterwards Terry will still distribute the WSM papers and the WSM will have no problem distributing Resistance.

In the SWP we don't hold with that sort of thing. We prefer unity. No disagreement. Just paper selling.

I bet those awful anarchists will go on to demonstrate together.

We must unite!

by Bob the Party Builder Sat Nov 16, 2002 18:56

Actually Terry there is a "commonality" between anarchism and "leninism". Both spring from the working class movement and both remain part, at least in theory of the workers movement. Anarchists and leninists can therefore be sectarian in their attitudes towards each other - putting their own interests ahead of those of the working class movement.

I am dubious as to whether any of this applies to the Anarchist Federation and the SWP though. It isn't as if either has any connection to the working class to speak of.

by maalox - underground quack legions of the worm god Mon Nov 18, 2002 16:03 maalox at safe-mail dot net

Take Responsibility
by IAWM Supporter Fri, Nov 15 2002, 11:06am

"Supporters of the Irish Anti War Movement in this thread have so far as I have seen *not* told people not to go on the smaller Sunday protest in Shannon (despite their understandable suspicions of the motivcation of the GG protest)."

I dispute the use of the word "understandable" here. Try substituting "paranoid". Asking whether the IAWM is providing buses to a demonstration that, as you point out, is supported by their members seems to me to be a reasonable inquiry.

Throwing wild accusations around that anarchist conspiracies psychically detected your secret plans and then set out to destroy it by organising something flashier and sexier the next day, on the other hand...

by kitty-kat Wed Dec 04, 2002 13:26

MILLIONS OF IRAQIS ARE GOING TO DIE.

either people are interested in stopping this or they are self absorbed, self important, suspicious & distracted. This is not about us. this is not about which political ideology is better or more effective or more virtuous.

I'm not SWP or Anarchist or activist or any "ist" but i have distributed almost a thousand leaflets on the streets of Dublin, just in the last couple of nights. advertising the 7th AND the 8th. encouraging people to do what they can, challenging them to do more. because one fact remains...

MILLIONS OF IRAQIS ARE GOING TO DIE.
AGAIN.