SWP's role in Florence

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Mon Nov 11, 2002 16:58 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

While not great a Wolfe Tones fan myself the connection between people drunk in bars outside of Ireland in particular and singing rebel songs is fairly well established. Drop into almost any bar around Ireland where's there's music or what have you and somebody will be singing Fields of Athenry, Foggy Dew, Seán South or what have you.

It doesn't make them republican. They could loathe republicans, but the songs are at this stage part of Irish pub culture, I wouldn't be surprised if there are people out there who are either unaware or uncaring about the political context of songs. If everyone who sang the Fields of Athenry was republican, the struggle would be over now and we'd all be living in a workers republic.

SWP members are no different from anyone else, mostly, and a few songs are probably inevitable. It doesn't mean the SWP is secretly a front organisation for Sinn Féin, *bizarre mental image* but simply that they were Irish, drunk and abroad.

I won't even get into the argument about your claim that those songs are nationalist and glorify terrorism. Some are, some aren't.

by dave lordan - swp Mon Nov 11, 2002 16:59

i was present in the pub last night and stone cold sober and this guy is a liar. Their were lots of revolutionary songs sang by irish, english and italians in the bar and the atmosphere was great. I sang the wild rover and others played the thin whistle etc. Anyone who wants to see our policy on the north should check our website. We want to see a thrirty two county irish republic run by protestant and catholic workers.
The swp and our sister organisations were one of the largest and most colourful sections of the march a fact acknowledged by all of the italian friends we have made in the social movemnts while helping to organise the protests in florence.
Repeat this guy is a liar and trying to satrt an argument on indymedia. I don't know why but iam sure it isn't a good reason. Don't fall for it.
Anti war demo 7th of december to the american embassy.

by after the revolution Mon Nov 11, 2002 17:40

Yiz do it in Dubbilin so why wouldn't yiz do it in F.

by H. Pollitt Mon Nov 11, 2002 17:53

Aye I remember SWP members singing rebel songs at a previous outing to Italy. Why the cover up?, I mean as Justin points out they are only songs for fucks sake (and no I wouldn't mind any one singing the Sash or whatever).

by Italian social movements Mon Nov 11, 2002 18:00

Dave is right. The swp and their sister organisations were the largest, loudest and most colourful section of the march. People were queing to buy their bandanas.

by pat c Mon Nov 11, 2002 18:02

whats wrong with swp members singing republican songs?

in all of their writings on ireland, marx, engels, lenin, trotsky and the communist international supported the irish national liberation struggle.

never once did they suggest that irish revolutionaries should capitualte to the backwardness of the majority of the protestant working class.

indeed the communist international saw the 1921 treaty as a betrayal and supported the ira during the civil war.

1n 1936 leon trotsky again reaffirmed his support for the republican cause (ina letter to nora connolly obrien). he had no sympathy with the epignones who wanted to make concessions to loyalism.

when the cwi attack the irish national liberation strugle it means they have to ignore EVERYTHING marx, engels, lenin, trotsky and the communist international wrote about ireland.

by Nora Geraghty - Globalise Resistance Mon Nov 11, 2002 18:34

I don't think we sang any nasty terrorist songs, true, the Italian press had labled GR a terrorist organisation, but actually we were totally peaceful on the march and there was no trouble at all. The other comrades from everywhere seemed to enjoy our sessions, and a good time was had by all. If this guy was offended I wish he would have said something to us there and then, so that we would have some clue as to what he was on about. The SWP were the life and soul of the demonstration and deserve hearty slaps on the back. I also believe that it is important to sing the songs that represent the traditions we all came from as well as the new songs about what we are becoming. This doesn't make us terrorists. As Dave said, he was there stone cold sober and I'm quite sure he would have given us all hell if we had been in any way obnoxious.

by hydra Mon Nov 11, 2002 18:39

That reminds me of an afternoon's drinking in the Shakespeare many years ago where one of our nordie brethern taught us the following ditty, does anyone know its name?

"So let us remember,
that brave Ulster soldier,
Who dies there that day, on the Somme,
For King and for Country,
Young Willie died bravely,
Oh Willie McFadden of the U-V-F..."

I actually rather like to bust that one out when in republican company, as it always causes considerable confusion. But then I like republican songs plenty too....

This stuff is quite different to Dolly's Brae, which is basically a call for ethnic cleansing. I can't think of any republican songs of that type. And anyway, would such a PC prohibition mean that I can't hum another old favourite, Tina Turner's 'Simply the Best' which a certain fascist gang have dragged into such disrepute???!

And another thing, I presume that the Italian comment about the SWP participation is in gest, as it's factually wildly inaccurate. But it wouldn't surprise me if there bandanas sold well, if only to clean up the wank that comes out of their mouths. Here's a tip though, shove the banadana into their mouth and increase sanitation standards....

Lastly, if it's nthe case that there are people connected with PUP/UVF posting here, can you tell us what you're doing in terms of agitation on social questions in the areas where you're strong. I'm curious.

by Phuq Hedd Mon Nov 11, 2002 18:54

Whether or not you're a Protestant should not have any bearing on whether or not you're offended by Republican revolutionary songs. If, on the other hand, you're anti-republican, anti-national liberation and a bigoted sectarian then I can see you getting all whingey.

I have no time for the shallow cause-hopping, opportunism of the vanguardist SWP but this is a boneheaded complaint.

by Italian social movements Mon Nov 11, 2002 18:54

I presume that the Italian comment about the SWP participation is in gest

Yes it is. We all laughed at their silly fists and speeches.

by Charlie Chan Mon Nov 11, 2002 18:55

Isn't it interesting that the usual suspect moany holes have nothing interesting to say about a movement that mobilises one million against the war and how to take that movement forward.

Instead they only have abuse and ignorant gossip to heap on those who are genuinely putting their backs into building the movement.

"What did you do to stop the war, daddy?"
"I posted to indymedia about the nasty SWP, son."

by Bob the trot Mon Nov 11, 2002 19:07

"What did you do to stop the war, son?"
"I sold 3 copies of Socialist Worker and posted to indymedia about ignorant gossip, dad."

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Mon Nov 11, 2002 19:24 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

If I can leave aside the crucial political debate of whether they sang 'Loughall Ambush' or 'Croppies Lie Down' for a moment as some-one who is neither s supporter of the SWP nor of GR, I think they deserve to be congratulated for the work they did in mobilising people to Florence. While not everyone went there under the GR umbrella and understanding the attitude the SWP have to organisations like this I still think it was a very positive and audable project.

I doubt anyone thinks Florence is going to stop the war, overthrow capitalism and seize the means of production but it brought together thousands of actvists, facilitated a great deal of networking, an exchange of ideas and arguments and clearly an inspiration to those people who went on it. I didn't attend and had no particular desire to do so, but I think those who did, and those who put the work in to bring it off deserve to be congratulated for it. That they won't be, is a fairly clear indicator of the sectarianism of many Indymedia activists we have come to know and love.

by Bob the Party Builder Mon Nov 11, 2002 21:18

Interesting that Dave now refers to all those who travelled to Florence as part of the Irish mobilisation as the Globalise Resistance contingent. Is he just getting his covernames mixed up or is making a serious claim that the likes of comhlamh have been stupid enough to rejoin GR/SWP?

While we are talking about "hijacking", would Dave also like to commentt on the attempts by the British SWP to pass off one of their members as an absent Communication Workers Union representative who was due to speak at one of the main sessions?

by Harry Pollitt Tue Nov 12, 2002 15:18

"in all of their writings on ireland, marx, engels, lenin, trotsky and the communist international supported the irish national liberation struggle."

Well that's that then!

And think of all the other things they supported, the latter ones in particular, executions for Tolstoyians, for prostitutes, for people keeping grain to feed their childen, etc..... .

Obviously if some mass murder like Lenin supported the 'RA then the RA' must be supported!

And on another poster there are republican ethnic cleansing songs see for instance 'Sunday Bloody Sunday (this is a rebel song)', I think it's called.

by hydra Tue Nov 12, 2002 16:13

I did a google search and the only thing that I came up with is this. Chris Byrne used to be in Black 47, a New York based republican outfit.

Doesn't seem an anthem to genocide to me!
Come on loyalist lurkers, help us out here....

Sunday Bloody Sunday
Chris Byrne
Right from the start this here's a rebel song
It's from the heart I wanna tell you 'bout a wrong
Committed by Britain back in the day
Fourteen murdered - they refused to be slaves
To the crown, in Derry town
They wouldn't bow down so they were shot down
A peaceful protest, the turnout was large
So the soldiers decided to show who was in charge
Vexed so they flexed, did what paras can do best
When the smoke had cleared fourteen were laid to rest
No riots, no lootin' to start off the shootin'
People emulated King, not Seal, not Newton
Things forever changed after that afternoon
Brothers started doing what they had to do
On Bloody Sunday

Sunday Bloody Sunday - Still haunted by the cries
Sunday Bloody Sunday - Twenty-five years of lies

How long must we sing this song
Til the government admits that they were wrong
And finally show some decency
Reparation to each family.
Treat our people with some dignity
You know their shit really gets to me
The way they try to deny my history
Twenty-five years on our people getting strong
Thought may hit the Brits that it's time to move on
Order the border to be cast out to sea
Cause that is where it was meant to be
And that would be an appropriate way
To honor those who were slain
On Bloody Sunday

by Harry Pollitt Tue Nov 12, 2002 17:43

Nope. The song in question, which I have on tapes without track listings contains lyrics like: "All you Anglos, Prods, and Scots sent to colonise the North ... leave Ireland for the Irish, Drive the British to the sea"

and so on. In other words it's honest enough to
say that 'Brits Out' means colons (as O'Bradiagh used to say) out also.
I think it's called 'Sunday, Bloody Sunday, (this is a rebel song)' but i'm not 100% sure.

by Harry Pollitt Tue Nov 12, 2002 17:47

While not being neccesarily anti-Protestant a lot of rebel songs are pretty anti-British if you think about it. Like how about "There flowed a stream of saxon gore". Hmm!

Doesn't stop me from having that one on my record player, but I must admit it is all a little dubious. I presume other places have similar songs. Any Serbs, Croats or Albanians lurking out there?

by doheochai - Socialist Party Tue Nov 12, 2002 19:13

This thread seems to have drifted off the original point, which I would like to go back to.

Should left wing activists sing republican songs? Justin has no problem with this and as a member of Sinn Fein I would not expect anything different, but Sinn Fein are a nationalist and not a socialist organisation and as such are not really relevant to this discussion.

Members of the SWP were singing republican songs in Florence and should they have been doing this? Far be it from me to tell the SWP what to do, but as a socialist I feel, despite what has been said, it is an important issue and should be discussed out.

There is an enormously rich tradition both in Ireland and internationally of songs that are part of the workers movement, songs of struggle, of solidarity, of hope and of sadness. They are songs that express the past, present and future, that express the inherent nature of the working class towards solidarity, unity and support.

There is also a tradition in this country of singing republican/nationalist songs, many of which are heart-felt and genuine, but many of which are divisive, triumphalist and sectarian. Unfortunately because of the fact that both types exist the genuine songs are tainted by association with the others. Bands like the Wolf Tones openly promote the divisive sectarian nature of republican songs, for financial gain it has to be said.

Socialists have a responsibility to promote unity of the working class and any actions that can undermine that unity are undesirable. The singing of republican songs can be an indication of an underlining sectarianism towards sections of the working class. Of late the SWP support the idea of working class unity in Northern Ireland, something that has only recently developed, however this idea of working class unity does not extend, for example, to unity between Israeli and Palestinian workers. I would assume the SWP participated in the massive anti-sectarianism demonstrations in the North last January. Would members of the SWP have sung republican songs during the demo? I think not. Should socialists sing songs in Florence that they would not sing in Belfast just because they happen to be removed from the situation by a few hundred miles? In my view they should not. During the recent SP conference a large number of songs were sung during social events at the conference, but there was not a single song that was sung during these events that could not have been sung during the Belfast demo of January 18th.

The actions of socialists during social events can have just as much of an influence on people as the actions of socialists during demonstrations, meetings etc. Socialists must be aware of this and behave accordingly. This is not being prim and proper about socialising but the attitude of socialists during social events is an extension of their actions on the streets.

Finally, I would like to comment about this idea that traditionally Irish people sing republican songs when they are abroad. As a rule the republicanism promoted internationally, tends to be of the more right-wing nationalist variety. This is openly promoted by republicanism. A romantic scenario of the national question is promoted and can have an effect on some people. But it would be very inaccurate to suggest that this is the norm among Irish people living abroad. It is a bit like the attitude of Ireland promoted in the USA as a country populated by green clad little people and cottages burning turf fires.

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Tue Nov 12, 2002 19:39 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

The song is indeed called Sunday Bloody Sunday and that line is contained in it. I know, and have heard played, songs of an extremely nationalist viewpoint by rebel ballads. I've honestly never heard a sectarian song, with the possible exception of Celtic Symphony and frankly, if you have a problem with Celtic fans get in line behind me. While not condoning the more extreme nationalist songs, decades of occupation have led to an understandable culture where such songs are popular. Personally, I'm not a fan but I know people who are.

by TheVoiceOfReason Tue Nov 12, 2002 19:49

Look, the SWP aren't really vicious republican nationalists. It's like everything they "do", they'll jump on whatever bandwagon is popular at the time and behave in whatever way seems most likely to get them members or cheap and easy visibility. Probably the poor darlings got confused when they were on holiday in Florence and were forced by circumstances into portraying themselves as feisty revolutionary leprechauns. Now lets drop the whole thing. This sectarian bickering is undermining left-unity. (Oh, and was the original comment posted by a Socialist Party person then?!)

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Tue Nov 12, 2002 19:55 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

Where to begin....

I am a member of Sinn Féin and I am a socialist. I also sing rebel songs when the mood takes me. This doesn't make me a nationalist nor does it mean that I hate English people or Protestants. I once spent a very enjoyable night in California teaching English people obscenely nationalist rebel songs and no-one froze up in horror. Sinn Féin is a socialist political party (Start a debate on PFI on your peril, I'm off home in a few minutes). I know other Sinn Féin members who sing them and I know plenty of Sinn Féin members whose attitude to rebel songs would be very similar to the person who posted first to this thread. Being in SF doesn't mean you have to like rebel songs, it just means you're a lot more likely to hear them.

As for the extremely rich tradition of songs etc. etc. while certainly admitting that there are nationalist songs sung by republicans there are also socialist songs song by republicans. James Connolly (Which a former Militant member was instructed not to sing one night by other members on the grounds that it was sectarian), Lockout and a variety of others. Republicans believe in the right of the Irish people to determine the destiny of the Irish people free from foreign interference, whether this is Brussels, Washington or London. Considering how recently men and women were involved in armed struggle on this it's hardly surprising that there are songs of a nationalist bent and I'm not ashamed to sing them. Well, not ashamed for poltical reasons, sometimes for musical reasons. And there is not the not insignificant fact that it raises a lot of money. Not every flight from the US is laden down with gold bullion for SF.

Lastly, your reference to how we are seen overseas begins and ends, like it does for many of our critics, with the US. (Interesting New York Post editorial this week lashing us for our left wing politics) SF has solidarity links with countries and parties all over the world including Cuba, Euskadi, South Africa, Palestine, Colombia and a number of others where our left wing politics is prominent. And yes, the CWI (That might be the SWP, whichever International you're in yourself) has lnks all over the world as well, no-one questions that. so don't question the fact that we do either.

As for your comment on what Irish people do abroad when drinking, I never claimed it was the norm or that Irish students abroad race home to practice Kevin Barry or Men Behind the Wire, merely that it occurs more often than it might when people are back home and people who might never sing a reel song in Ireland are more inclined to do it when they're abroad. It doesn't make them republicans, or nationalists for that matter. It also doesn't make them bad people.

by DLA Tue Nov 12, 2002 20:12

Marx, Engels, Lenin and Trotsky supported movements for national liberation. However they did not do so uncritically. The ideas of marxism and socialism as the only avenue for liberation was key. There understanding of national movements was one of applying the method of marxism to the current context and objective situation of that time. Marxism is a method and cannot be rigidly applied to each and every circumstance. The SWP have proved themselves incapable of such an understanding. The founders of genuine scientific socialism approached every question with a critical mind, understaning the processes taking place and the nature in which they change. Conciousness of the working class was always key and if a movement was progressive or reactionary in its nature.

They therefore would never have supported the movemnets of the IRA over the past 30 years or so. They pay have understood the reasons for such anger and mood but would never have pandered to such ideas. And now with a change in world relations national liberation movements have also changed character. The songs that were sung would symbolise the past 30 years not the movements of old which on there own were still not socialist and therefore do not present an alternative.

The SWP should not of sung those songs but as the last contribution said the SWPs position on Northern Ireland has changed or maybe in reality not.

Socialists always call for unity. But that is not enough - calls for unity must be matched with action which guide the working class to action. Support of the so called anti-sectarian rally in July this year was not a pointer to unity. It was called by sectarians trying to put themselves at the head of anti-sectarianism in order that it doesn't develop. This demo was not January 18th. Singing republican songs also does not point to unity. This is a fact which the SWP members should contemplate. Do my actions move things forward or backwards?

Think about it. Read the writings but also try and undertand the method.

by pp Tue Nov 12, 2002 21:14

"The Irishman, banished by sheep and ox, re-appears on the other side of the ocean as a Fenian, and face to face with the old queen of the seas rises, threatening and more threatening, the young giant Republic".
Karl Marx, Das Kapital, Vol. 1, Chapter 25, sect. 5, final lines.

by doheochai - Socialist Party Wed Nov 13, 2002 00:33

I have no doubt that there are members of Sinn Fein that are socialists, however there are also members of Sinn Fein that are out and out right-wing nationalists (and I know quite a few). The fact that a political party claims to be socialist or has members that are socialists does not make it a socialist party. There are very few people that would think Pat Rabbitte and the Labour Party are socialist despite their claims. Incidentally, I just looked up the Sinn Fein homepage(not one of my regular stops) and there is not a single mention of the word socialism on it.

Let's not go into PFI, let's look at the international links of Sinn Fein. Firstly the Socialist Party is affiliated to an international organisation, the CWI. We stand for international socialism, not socialism in one country. Sinn Fein is not affiliated to any international organisation but has fraternal links with an number of "national liberation" movements.

Let's look at those links. I am going from memory here as, again, I could not find any mention of these links on the Sinn Fein website.

Cuba, Sinn Fein has links with Castro and the Cuban Regime. Now you may consider Castro a socialist, Justin, but I am afraid I do not. The word dictator comes to mind.

Basque country, links with basque nationalists, and I stress the word "nationalists". No need to say anymore.

South Africa, Links with the ANC. Now the ANC has become the foremost advocate of neo-liberal economic policies in the entire continent of Africa. In fact it is playing the role of an imperialist power in southern Africa and using its power and wealth to trample on the democratic rights of the impoverished masses in the region.

Columbia, links with FARC, an armed guerrilla movement, again that would be hard pushed to be described as socialist, despite the claims by the US administration that they are marxist. Would be much more accurately described as former stalinists that have very much lost their political way, and operate in a fashion that could hardly be described as democratic.

Palestine, The PLO would be the link here. Since the emergence of the Palestinian authority, Arafat and the PLO have turned into tin-pot dictators. They have absolutely no interest in fighting for the Palestinian masses or the creation of any type of socialist society.

Now there is a rogues gallery of known associates. Now I am sure Justin, that you will say that you have fraternal links with all these groups, but that they are independant organisations that have a right to make their own decisions and that Sinn Fein does not influence and cannot be held accountable for their actions. The only thing that these groups have in common is the "armed struggle" and a desire for the promotion of nationalism. It is more a case of my enemy's enemy is my friend.

But lets not forget some of the other links, Slick Billy Clinton, that great democratic leader of the free world. Dubya Bush and his war-mongering cohorts (or maybe Gerry Adams hasn't visited the White House recently). An all those rich irish-americans that pay $500 a plate to come and hear Adams making his after dinner speech. Doesn't Sinn Fein still desire a Pan-Nationalist Front with the SDLP and those working class heroes in Fianna Fail (maybe ye will get a chance to vote to go into coalition with them after the next election, but then doesn't Sinn Fein do deals on local councils, so it wouldn't really be that difficult). And hasn't Sinn Fein recently been in Goverment with that great defender of the Protestant working class, David Trimble.

Sorry if the sarcasim got worse as I went on, but by your friends may you be known.

by Finghin - Socialist Youth Wed Nov 13, 2002 16:36

One interesting thing I saw on the SF stall in UCD this year was their flying of the Hisbola flag. This was obviously in an attempt to appear internationalist and show solidarity with the Palestinan people. There is of course nothing wrong with showing solidarity with the palestinian people or trying to be internationalists. The problem I have with this is that Hisbola are a right wing islamic fundamentalist group. They are very anti women and use terror tactics directed at ordinary Isreali workers. They can hardly be seen as a progressive force for the Palestinian people.

by Harry Pollitt Wed Nov 13, 2002 16:50

I posted this:

The song in question, which I have on tapes without track listings contains lyrics like: "All you Anglos, Prods, and Scots sent to colonise the North ... leave Ireland for the Irish, Drive the British to the sea"

To which Justin replied:

“The song is indeed called Sunday Bloody Sunday and that line is contained in it. ……. I've honestly never heard a sectarian song”

Does Winston Smith work in a Sinn Fein office?

by sp muppet Thu Nov 14, 2002 23:14

Who really cares what nutty little '4th international' the Socialist Party is affiliated to!
I am not a SF supporter but It is to SF's credit that they support Cuba. You should re word your statement below:

'Now you may consider Castro a socialist, Justin, but I am afraid I do not. The word dictator comes to mind'

To the much improved one:

'Now you may consider the SP socialist, Justin, but I am afraid I do not. The word asshole fake socialists comes to mind'

by Nero Thu Nov 14, 2002 23:24

Finghin shows the ignorance that you would expect from a sp hack. It is not 'Hisbola' you anti Muslim idiot. Keep on talking your ignorant shit about Palestinian and Isreali workers uniting and holding hands. The real world is much different to your trotskist pipe dream utopia. Real people are dying in Palestine.

by Finghin - Socialist Party Fri Nov 15, 2002 21:01

We are not members of the Fourth International we are members of the Committee for a Workers International (CWI) get your facts straight.

The SP are a trotskyist organisation we do give support to the Cuban people and we defend the gains of the plannned economy. But we raise justified critisisms of Castros corrupt bureacracy and we call for a political revolution in Cuba. Sinn Féin do not do this, in your silence you support the Cuban bureacracy.

Nero, do you think that me raising critisms of Islamic fundamentalists it makes me anti muslim? grow up. Going by that logic if you critisise George Bush you are anti Christian.

The programme of the CWI with regard the middle east is not utopian. We have a section of the CWI in Israel/Palestine which SF do not. Our position is tested on the ground in those countries and recieves much support among workers.

Saying that the SP are fake socialists is also childish. It is SF that are the fake socialists. SF have privitised it is SF that voted for Bin Tax, it is SF that are taking massive donations from the US establishment. The SP has always stood up for socilaism and for working people

by sp comedian Sat Nov 16, 2002 00:27

"We are not members of the Fourth International we are members of the Committee for a Workers International (CWI) get your facts straight"

Big deal finglin, as they are all nutters, who cares what they call themselves this week!

"The SP are a trotskyist organisation ....But we raise justified critisisms of Castros corrupt bureacracy and we call for a political revolution in Cuba...." The CIA also calls for this you fake shits

"The programme of the CWI with regard the middle east is not utopian. We have a section of the CWI in Israel/Palestine which SF do not. Our position is tested on the ground in those countries and recieves much support among workers."
This is the funniest of all your comments Fingie! I am sure the oppressed Palestinian masses will be greatly comforted to discover that there are 2 or 3 loons in Isreal calling for "workers unity" with the Palestinian bro's

Finally exactly how much support? is "much support among workers" The mind boggles!

by Finghin - Socialist Youth Sat Nov 16, 2002 20:30

The CIA actually would be calling for a social revolution and would not neccesarily be calling for a political revolution. They're problem with Castro is that he is the leader of an economy that is state owned and planned and that he represents a limited threat to US inmperialism, the CIA don't particularly have a big problem with him being corrupt. The political revolution that we would call for is a workers revolutiuon not something SF or the CIA call for.

The CWI in Israel/Palestine is alot larger than just 2 or 3 loons. Anyway it is much more than SF have in Israel/Palestine.

I think you should find out more about the workers movement before you start declaring you think we are all nutters. SF are the real nutters, you are the ones calling yourselves socialists when you in reality are privitising schools, closing hospitals and voting in double tax.

by Editorial Tue Nov 19, 2002 21:09

Can SF please respond to these comments
by Red Scare Tue, Nov 19 2002, 5:47pm

SF's international links questioned
Can SF please respond to these comments, regarding their international links?
Indymedia censors please don't take down this message like you did before.

Can SF please respond to these comments, regarding their international links?
Indymedia censors please don't take down this message like you did before.

http://www.indymedia.ie/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi?id=17420&start=80

related link: www.indymedia.ie/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi?id=17420&start=80

add your comments

COMMENTS

The piece in question
by Red Scare Tue, Nov 19 2002, 5:48pm

Sinn Fein's international links
by doheochai - Socialist Party Tue, Nov 12 2002, 11:33pm

I have no doubt that there are members of Sinn Fein that are socialists, however there are also
members of Sinn Fein that are out and out right-wing nationalists (and I know quite a few). The fact that
a political party claims to be socialist or has members that are socialists does not make it a socialist
party. There are very few people that would think Pat Rabbitte and the Labour Party are socialist
despite their claims. Incidentally, I just looked up the Sinn Fein homepage(not one of my regular stops)
and there is not a single mention of the word socialism on it.

Let's not go into PFI, let's look at the international links of Sinn Fein. Firstly the Socialist Party is
affiliated to an international organisation, the CWI. We stand for international socialism, not socialism
in one country. Sinn Fein is not affiliated to any international organisation but has fraternal links with an
number of "national liberation" movements.

Let's look at those links. I am going from memory here as, again, I could not find any mention of these
links on the Sinn Fein website.

Cuba, Sinn Fein has links with Castro and the Cuban Regime. Now you may consider Castro a
socialist, Justin, but I am afraid I do not. The word dictator comes to mind.

Basque country, links with basque nationalists, and I stress the word "nationalists". No need to say
anymore.

South Africa, Links with the ANC. Now the ANC has become the foremost advocate of neo-liberal
economic policies in the entire continent of Africa. In fact it is playing the role of an imperialist power in
southern Africa and using its power and wealth to trample on the democratic rights of the impoverished
masses in the region.

Columbia, links with FARC, an armed guerrilla movement, again that would be hard pushed to be
described as socialist, despite the claims by the US administration that they are marxist. Would be
much more accurately described as former stalinists that have very much lost their political way, and
operate in a fashion that could hardly be described as democratic.

Palestine, The PLO would be the link here. Since the emergence of the Palestinian authority, Arafat
and the PLO have turned into tin-pot dictators. They have absolutely no interest in fighting for the
Palestinian masses or the creation of any type of socialist society.

Now there is a rogues gallery of known associates. Now I am sure Justin, that you will say that you
have fraternal links with all these groups, but that they are independant organisations that have a right
to make their own decisions and that Sinn Fein does not influence and cannot be held accountable for
their actions. The only thing that these groups have in common is the "armed struggle" and a desire for
the promotion of nationalism. It is more a case of my enemy's enemy is my friend.

But lets not forget some of the other links, Slick Billy Clinton, that great democratic leader of the free
world. Dubya Bush and his war-mongering cohorts (or maybe Gerry Adams hasn't visited the White
House recently). An all those rich irish-americans that pay $500 a plate to come and hear Adams
making his after dinner speech. Doesn't Sinn Fein still desire a Pan-Nationalist Front with the SDLP
and those working class heroes in Fianna Fail (maybe ye will get a chance to vote to go into coalition
with them after the next election, but then doesn't Sinn Fein do deals on local councils, so it wouldn't
really be that difficult). And hasn't Sinn Fein recently been in Goverment with that great defender of the
Protestant working class, David Trimble.

Sorry if the sarcasim got worse as I went on, but by your friends may you be known.

will the sp please say what they intend doing about their member
by pat c Tue, Nov 19 2002, 5:57pm

in qub who acts as a recruiting sergeant for the british army?

please spare me any further hyperbole from finghin - the willie o'dea of the sp.

just give a straight answer.

why did the militant take a pro imperialist position during the malvinas war?
by pat c Tue, Nov 19 2002, 6:00pm

amongst other things they called for a "socialist federation of britain, the falklands (sic) and argentina".
assimilate that!

Get over it!
by OK - SP Tue, Nov 19 2002, 6:01pm

would you please get a life and get over the QUB thing.

The member was probably taken out of context. The posting was put up in an attempt to attack the
SP, because you have nothing to have a go at us about you just make up a load of shite about what
one member is said to have said.

answer it!
by pat c Tue, Nov 19 2002, 6:07pm

"The member was probably taken out of context."

if that was the case then you would have his exact words by now

"The posting was put up in an attempt to attack the SP, because you have nothing to have a go at us
about you just make up a load of shite about what one member is said to have said."

if its a load of shite then why don't you tell us exactly what happened?

why doesn't your member come here & tell us? i take it he can operate a pc?

come on lets have answers not more stalinist style evasions.

Ahhh, sweet irony
by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Tue, Nov 19 2002, 6:12pm
[email protected]

"The posting was put up in an attempt to attack the SP, because you have nothing to have a go at us
about you just make up a load of shite about what one member is said to have said."

Change SP to SF and you have a more accurate description of the first post.

Red Scare...
by MG Tue, Nov 19 2002, 6:27pm

If you've ever used this website before you will know that this is a newswire. The shite you have posted
above is not news and the sooner the "censors" delete it the better.

If you want to ask Sinn Fein a question, ring their fucking office and stop filling this potentially
interesting website with the kind of shit that turns people away from the site.

Fidel Castro
by Des Tue, Nov 19 2002, 6:35pm

In answer to the SP member who considers Fidel a "dictator", Fidel has led a progressive regime who
has made major contributions to the well being of the Cuban people. He has refused to buckle under
the pressure of the U.S. imperialist blockade. He has spoken out on behalf of the oppressed and
deprived in Africa and Latin America. The role of the Cuban comrades in Angola, who played a major
role im smashing the invasion of the South African racists is to be admired and respected. Cuba is an
example to the oppressed masses in Latin America. Having said that, nobody include Comrade Fidel
is above criticism. Given the U.S. blockade, he obviously had to make concessions to the Soviet
Union.

Totalitarian authortarian dictators.
by jenny b Tue, Nov 19 2002, 7:03pm

Bush and tony blur/alan b'stard are prime examples of totalitarian authortarian dictators. Fidel is not in
the same league as them. We are having to mop the aftermath of Bushes/blurs interferences in Africa
and latin america. The ANC knows no better, and are trying to make the best of a bad situation, a
legacy left by the Afrikaneers and their apartheid state. Just as blair/alan b'stard is left with the legacy
of vandalism that the tories left behind. At least the ANC are trying to change the system, unlike Blair
who is just carrying on Thatcher's policies. The ANC are restrained by the restrictive apartheid
apologists, having to work within another more placid apartheid system, the apartheid between the rich
and the poor,a new system which discredited activists like Winnie Mandela. Once again the poor
mainly blacks are left at the mercy of the rich mostly white, beaurocrats and adminstraters of the
newly renamed system. apartheid of another kind is now rampant in South africa, apartheid between
the rich (mostly whites/enterprenuers) and the poor (mostly black townships). Despite the abolition of
race apartheid, economic apartheid is alive and kicking,which means that for the poor blacks in the
townships, nothing has changed, they are no better off after liberation, the blacks are still poor and the
affluent whites still rich.

70% of americans living in poverty
by cleo mcwilliams Tue, Nov 19 2002, 7:12pm

70% of americans are living in poverty in capitalist america, with no free healthcare, no free school
meals, no free schools and no proper welfare benefits, which is why crime in america is at an all time
high, with the poor having to resort to crime to feed themselves and their families. America has the
most number of people in prisons, imprisoning more people than any other cuntry in the world.

At least in Cuba, society is more civillised, a society where everyone has access to free health care
and the welfare state.

I Don't get it
by Benny B Tue, Nov 19 2002, 7:22pm

I really don't get it.
Never mind this socialist party members inability to draw distinctions between political parties and
other types of organisation... lets look at the organisations he talks of... and i don't know if SF has any
links with any of these Organisations.......... but
The ANC- Overcame apartheid rule in South Africa
The PLO- Actively opposing Zionism and American imperialism
Batasuna- A political Party which has affiliated to it the largest Trade Union in the Basque country, has
been banned by the Spanish parliament and is avowedly socialist in all its documents (read them if u
have a problem) and many of whose members are imprisoned just because they are political activists.

etc. etc. Whats the SP member afraid of success and that maybe Trotsky didn't write the exact plan
70 years ago or that paper sales and entryism are getting them nowhere fast.
I don't get whats wrong with people opposing facism and imperialism.

blah blah blah
by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Tue, Nov 19 2002, 7:39pm
[email protected]

“I have no doubt that there are members of Sinn Fein that are socialists, however there are also
members of Sinn Fein that are out and out right-wing nationalists (and I know quite a few).”

I know Socialist Party members I wouldn’t trust to cross the road. I don’t automatically assume you
are all incompetent. I know there are nationalists in SF. I also know what party policy is.

“Incidentally, I just looked up the Sinn Fein homepage(not one of my regular stops) and there is not a
single mention of the word socialism on it.”

I see, so simply because a party calls itself socialist is no guide to whether it is socialist or not but the
fact that it uses the word ‘socialist’ on its webpage clearly is? BTW, future questions on SF policy
should be answerable by searching our press release archive.

“Cuba, Sinn Fein has links with Castro and the Cuban Regime. Now you may consider Castro a
socialist, Justin, but I am afraid I do not. The word dictator comes to mind.”

I don’t see Cuba as a socialist state but as a state that is under constant, day and night attack by
western, capitalist powers. It’s not a socialist state but one could wonder if a socialist state was under
assault, military, economic, political and social for 40 years, could they have done otherwise? Cuba
isn’t perfect by any means. It has a lot that needs to be changed, but there is also a lot positive in
Cuba. The Cuban government was also very supportive of the struggle for Irish independence during the
70s and 80s.

“Basque country, links with basque nationalists, and I stress the word "nationalists". No need to say
anymore.”

Yes there fucking is. Christ if there was a Basque activist here he’d be jumping down your throat right
now in a manner I’d find frightening. Organisations like Segi or whatever the banned version is now have
very good left-wing credentials and frankly, on my trips there I have far more respect for their right to
call themselves socialists than any political party, including my own, in Ireland.

“South Africa, Links with the ANC. Now the ANC has become the foremost advocate of neo-liberal
economic policies in the entire continent of Africa…..”

Indeed it is, but our links to the ANC go back decades, to long before the formation of the state when
the ANC and Spear of the Nation were still involved in armed struggle.

“Columbia, links with FARC, an armed guerrilla movement,”

SF has no official links with FARC. I’ll leave your comments about FARC for another argument.

“Palestine, The PLO would be the link here. Since the emergence of the Palestinian authority, Arafat
and the PLO have turned into tin-pot dictators. They have absolutely no interest in fighting for the
Palestinian masses or the creation of any type of socialist society.”

Frankly if I was a Palestinian I’d be more concerned with surviving the night than I would be with
internal discussions about Marx.

“Now there is a rogues gallery of known associates.”

Interestingly they’re all known associates, whereas I don’t have a notion where and who is part of the
CWI and, entertainingly, don’t particularly care either.

“Now I am sure Justin, that you will say that you have fraternal links with all these groups, but that they
are independant organisations that have a right to make their own decisions and that Sinn Fein does
not influence and cannot be held accountable for their actions.”

Why in such a hurry for me to reply if you can write my post for me?

“The only thing that these groups have in common is the "armed struggle" and a desire for the
promotion of nationalism. It is more a case of my enemy's enemy is my friend.”

Don’t talk such unremitting nonsense. Educate yourself about the Basque struggle. (The recent visit of
Basques to Ireland would have been a great opportunity, didn’t see you there, or at the meeting
organised by Tar Isteach in the Teachers Club) and I find the idea of Cuba’s revolution as being all
about nationalism a bit odd. On that note who are they in armed struggle with?

“But lets not forget some of the other links, Slick Billy Clinton, that great democratic leader of the free
world.”

Some of us are trying to bring to an end decades, if not centuries of conflict in the North. America, and
Clinton, played a key role in bringing peace to Ireland. I know what his domestic policies are like. I
spent some time living in the States when he was in charge. That doesn’t change the fact that he was
good for peace in Ireland. Hurt though it might, Bill Clinton has done more for peace in Ireland than the
Socialist Party. We don’t agree with the SP on everything but we can work together when necessary in
much the same way we can with Clinton.

“Dubya Bush and his war-mongering cohorts (or maybe Gerry Adams hasn't visited the White House
recently). An all those rich irish-americans that pay $500 a plate to come and hear Adams making his
after dinner speech.”

Peace Process, and your party’s continuing refusal to understand it in any logical fashion. As for the
money, if Americans want to donate to us I’m not going to stop them. We need the money and don’t
pretend otherwise. Hasn’t stopped us condemning attempts to go to war in Iraq or American foreign
policy in our paper or in public statements.

“Doesn't Sinn Fein still desire a Pan-Nationalist Front with the SDLP and those working class heroes in
Fianna Fail”

We want those parties to be arguers for peace and the implementation in full of the GFA and we are
willing to work with any party to do that, even yours.

“(maybe ye will get a chance to vote to go into coalition with them after the next election, but then
doesn't Sinn Fein do deals on local councils, so it wouldn't really be that difficult).”

You predicted we would this time and now, Orwell like, that’s forgotten and you predict it for next time.
If it doesn’t happen then you’ll predict it for five years later……And it goes on.

“And hasn't Sinn Fein recently been in Goverment with that great defender of the Protestant working
class, David Trimble. “

If you have a better solution to the North let me hear it, and I’ve read the Peter Heddon written Socialist
Party document and if that’s your proposal, I’ve read it and not been impressed.

“Sorry if the sarcasim got worse as I went on, but by your friends may you be known.’”

Apologies would only be necessary if I took you
seriously in the first place. What do you get out of this? I am honestly curious. Do you expect me to
suddenly realise you’re right and apply for membership? Do you simply have a great deal of time on
your hands? Do you honestly think there is some-one watching this debate eagerly trying to decide
whether they support the SP or SF? Do you think, and the SP might very well do so judging by some
of its publications, that your time is best spent in a meaningless, irrelevant and numbingly boring
debate on Indymedia where you can take inaccurate and poorly informed digs at Sinn Fein? I mean is
this how you see the Irish left? Irrelevant backbiting?

I’ve never attacked other parties and organisations on Indymedia except for the occasional swipe at the
SWP and that’s practically a rite of passage. This is a news forum. If you want to continue this, email
me or arrange a time and place to meet and buy me a pint but I have no intention of clogging up
Indymedia with any more of this.

by frank from Liverpool Sun Jan 09, 2005 15:14 frank at meregreenoldboys dot com

It's a long time since I was active in any kind of SWP stuff....I was at one time a "Newsline" subscriber...I was eventually awoken after the poll tax struggle when it seems the "ends" of that particular fight were to see just how many prominent figures could cop for cushy local area jobs.

I was brought to this thread by an innocent google and looking for something complteley unrelated.

Is this thread real ? or is it a script ? Harry Enfield ? Monty Python ?

I have visions of John Cleese and the Peoples Popular Front of Judea.

I was also reminded of why, even whe we manage to mobilise 1million people..."the workers" are not happy unless they have their head up their backside.

"We are more socialist than you"

crack on

x x x x Peace x x x x