Time to honestly name and shame the groups who did nothing on Nice

by emma Sat Oct 19, 2002 17:07

starting with anarchists who don't vote...

by voters and non voters Sat Oct 19, 2002 17:19

nitric oxide
giggle giggle
todays RTE electronic poll is on the drink and cars.
giggle giggle
No vote has it there

by limerick1919 Sat Oct 19, 2002 17:35 limerick1919 at hotmail dot com

Most 'no' posters in the Limerick City and county area were after Barretts mob, Shinners ones. Afri also had a fair few up. SWM none Socialist party ones appeared in my line of vision on Thursday last.
Forgive me SP if you had yours up in the colleges before this but I was only keeping an eye on working class areas. Actually RSF had more posters and visability then you. Strange.

by death to all who moan Sat Oct 19, 2002 18:09

Just wondering if Independent actually did anything during the campaign or if he/she just likes criticising from the sidelines.

And Limerick 1919 I think I know who you are and I KNOW where you live. Sideline bedfellos as far as I can see.

Death to all who moan!!

by abok Sat Oct 19, 2002 18:39

By the way, Joe HIggins is not a one man show, the work done on the Nice campaign was done by the Socialist Party. You sound like the Irish Times.
Joe HIggins - independent social....
Joe Higgins - independent
Joe HIggins - Socialist Worker

Believe it or not JOe is a member of the Socialist Party and is bound by the decissions taken democratically within the Socialist PArty structures. Whats with the dig at us in Limerick. If there ever was an organisation grounded in the working class both in terms of membership and policies its the SOCIALIST Party

by A friend of the just Sat Oct 19, 2002 21:06

The Socialist Party in my opinion did do work on the Nice. Not as much as maybe we all would have liked and maybe not as much as they would have liked. Joe played a very good role over the campaign, nobody can criticise him. But Joe is not an independent just wandering around aimlessly. I'm sure that was part of the SPs strategy. Also I saw SP posters, which actually said something clearly, unlike the SWPs ridiculous posters. Might aswell keep in tradition. Their Abortion posters were of the same 'quality'.

In Limerick I don't know. But I'm sure over weeks the Socialist Party has been raising the issue on stalls etc

They are principled fighters for workers and youth.

by Mr O´ asif Sat Oct 19, 2002 21:30

I spammed everyone.
I wrote letters but was too poor to put a stamp on them.
I sent tinfoil-hat muppet psi messages to the little rascals.
I wandered around cyberspace between Irerand gov and all its frinds and all its media outlets and in the end I phoned home and said vote NO! and sure they said "we are voting no don´t worry about it Mr O´ asif"
and that´s it.
nothing.
my cybervote lasted almost three months of making friends with ye, glimpsing old friends, noticing the lurkers (ah sure you´re always there aren´t ye?) and I left loads of cryptic crossword clues too. (That was for my Nobel prize.)
My favourite was the Sallust quote.
crossaire.
how do you say that?
exactly very cross is Eire.
But one thing I´ve learnt over these last few months is that I miss my country and family and friends.
But that´s how it goes.
CIAO!
kisses and hugs
and remember PandaBear is watching you.
if you go out raving
Ecstasy is chemically very similar to many legally prescribed anti-depressives which fall into two basic types.
go to http://www.esctasy.org
or google.
googling is goo.
goo.
now remember Iganatius off in Rome.
don´t worry about a thing.
all the nasty priest are going to be got.
And why did I call them little rascals?
well forgive me the indulgence of a bit of biographical storytelling.
I am a musician. an organist. when I was a youngster I was asked to play a funeral for a widow´s husband. [well she would be widow wouldn´t you all you sharp up to code young and old fellahs and grrrls are saying]
I played that funeral my fee was 20 punts.
(the ones with WB Yeats on)
The funeral parlour Staffords owned by John Stafford TD (FF) charged the widow 40punts for the music.
The funeral parlour didn´t pay me.
I needed the money to pay my music fees.
I thought the widow needed the money.
which is why I had charged half.
Mr John Stafford TD FF, called me a "little rascal" for wanting the money.
I replied in my most snooty [I do good snooty] "you wait fifteen years".
Well fifteen years aren´t up yet.
JAysus he carries a terrible chip on his shoulder doesn´t he?
yep
damn right.
HEART AND MIND!

by calling it like it is Sat Oct 19, 2002 22:56

Joe Higgins did a fine job, he usually does and I am sure the sp would have put up more posters if he had personally put them up. But he is too busy to do everything unlike the sp shower in Thomas street. The swp campaign on Nice was non existant I seen a (very) few posters up, but only a fraction that they put up for boyd barret and brid smith in the recent election, so there is no doubt they were not serious or committed just like the sp (with the exception of Joe Higgins)

by Limerick1919 Sat Oct 19, 2002 23:07 [email protected]

If you know me, so what, email me and get it over with. However I would be surprised if you do.

I live and work in working class areas and I see the city centre(Limerick) regularly. My comment was not meant to be a dig. I actually have not seen socialist party posters until Thursday. For historical reasonds I thought the assertion about Sinn Fein should be corrected. In the No side only one party postered in my area and only ONE came to my doorstep.- Sinn Fein.

So sorry if you thought that this was some sectarian shit. bad news. This was a personal observation, I'm sure it is probably very different in Dublin, I was only giving the viewpoint of someone on the ground in limerick.

In the past I was under the impression that Socialist party had good ground made in colleges in Limerick. I must have been wrong. Sorry for elevating your positition

by doheochai - Socialist Party Sat Oct 19, 2002 23:52

As a member of the Socialist Party in Limerick I would like to respond to the comments by Limerick1919.

The Socialist Party in Limerick have participated inthe anti-Nice Campaign from the outset. Members of the Socialist party have participated in approximately 17 different meetings in the Mid-West Region. I spent an hour on local radio last monday debating with, among others PD Minister Tim O'Malley. On Wednesday evening we debated with John Gormley against Martin Manseragh at a meeting in UL attended by nearly 200 students.

We were to first political organisation to campaign on the Nice Treaty, begining over 2 months ago. We have held numerous city centre stalls, distributed 1000's of leaflets and discussed with hundreds of ordinary people.

In conjunction with this, we have organised public meetings on the War in Iraq, in the city centre and UL, we postered, leafletted and participated in the Shannon demo. We participated in the 1,200 strong Trade Union demo in Limerick and were the only political organisation to distribute material at the demo. Through our class reps in UL we helped organise the 3,500 strong student demo last week. we participated in the demo and outside of a lone labour youth member, were again the only ones to distribute leaflets on the demo. We put up posters for the Shannon demo, the Alliance against the Nice treaty meeting and Our own Vote No posters not just in Limerick but in Shannon as well.

We have had a number of stalls in UL and other public meetings as well and have more than doubled the membership of our branch in the process.

Not bad for a small political organisation in a period of a few weeks.

Why did we not canvass? Simply we did not have the numbers. Sinn Fein have a larger organisation in Limerick and they cncentrated on leaflet drops in the Housing estates. They had no presence on the streets of Limerick over the past number of weeks. Why did Sinn Fein have more posters. Money!! Sinn Fein are a far wealthier party. We had limited resources and limited posters but 100 Socialist Party posters were put up over the past few days.

by k Sun Oct 20, 2002 00:11

i postered o'connell street on monday evening for the sp, only (i hear from the imc) for them to be taken down by 'litter wardens' or some shit.

by Limerick1919 Sun Oct 20, 2002 00:39 [email protected]

Thanks for that information. That is interesting to hear especially the litter warden part. What excuse could be proffered here.
I have no dealings with colleges in Limerick so I wouldn't know but it is good to hear you are strong there. I welcome a strong SP in Limerick just like i would welcome a strong SF, strong anarchists, anything to challenge the cosy concensus that exists.

Anyway it doesn't matter how much anyone spent . The treaty is lost. One consolation is in discussing this in recent days, I spoke to some who were changing this time as they couldn't reconcile being on the same side as Barrett.

If nothing else this is a defeat for him.

by tell the truth motherfucka Sun Oct 20, 2002 16:27

K claims that

'i postered o'connell street on monday evening for the sp, only (i hear from the imc) for them to be taken down by 'litter wardens' or some shit'

Oh how very convienient the one street in Dublin the lazy sp postered happened to have postered, had posters removed from it! Talk about rewriting history! Well I was in o connell st untill late monday night and I saw no SP posters at all. I did see lots of Sinn Fein, Green, Afri, Commmunist Party and Barrett ones and not just on o connell st but all around the city, so stop telling lies. I dont even agree with any of the above parties that I mentioned, but the truth is that they did do the work and not just pretend to do it like the swp and the swp are trying to.

by OK - SP Sun Oct 20, 2002 17:21

To attyack the Socialist Party on not doing work on Nice is wrong. All our branches have been doing work on the Nice Treaty. We're a small organisation that doesn't take money from big business in the USA. We're also excluded from the mainsteem media, usually dismissed as "independents" or "Joe Higgins' SP".

How can you praise the work of Joe Higgins and then attack other SP members? Joe worked hard on the Nice Treaty, as did all other members. The difference is that Joe is more high profile because he is a TD.

I think that the attacks on the SP on NIce are coming from those with a chip on their shoulder about our politics. Usually I would suspect SWP having a go at us, but they are not, as those attacking the SP are also attacking the SWP. I think that it's only a small rump of anarchists having a go at us.

by the great pretender Sun Oct 20, 2002 17:53

It sounds like the Socialist Party in Limerick have done more work in the anti-Nice Campaign than their members in Dublin have. Now I hope that this is the truth because some of the Dublin sp muppets are trying to limply claim that they 'really did work on Nice'. Wel, I live in Dublin and they did nothing.

I dont àgree with the Greens and Sinn Fein on most things except their positions on Nice, but they did a certain amount of work to fight Nice, although not as much as they do to get their people elected at election time. And before irate sp members rush to claim that Joe Higgins did great work, I am aware that he did, I am not critising Joe, I am criticisimg the rest of the sp who didnt scratch themselves for the entire weeks during Nice.

As for the swp, the irsp and 'the Blanket' dissidents or whatever they call themselves they were useless, totally useless and deserve never to be taken seriously the next time they bullshit on the indymedia newswire. The CPI and the WP were not bad given their middle aged and older age profile, and limited numbers and their leaflets and posters were ok. LAN was superb and fought a real battle and deserve to be taken seriously from now on (and I am not a LAN member)

by hs - sp dublin Sun Oct 20, 2002 18:25

The sp dublin cc branch had stalls two days a week through the whole summer. We distributed thousands of leaflets and canvassed thousands of people going past.
Could the internet revolutionaries critisising us please tell us what they did apart from moaning on the internet.
A campaign like nice which is a national campaign is always going to be difficult for a small party like the sp and we have to pick places (ie the gpo) where we can reach as many people as possible. And to say joe higgins is wonderful while the party is useless is ridiculas and show your using the same individualistic nonsense as the Irish Times. Joe is a sp member like everyone else and he has the same responsibilty towards the party as anyone else.

by k - sp Sun Oct 20, 2002 18:45

to you ever called me a liar.

I dont care where you were on monday night, i put up 50 fucking posters (saying "Nice means more cutbacks" and "nice will destroy public services"). i spent two hours travelling to do this - i dont live in dublin. i spent bout an hour doin the street, as well as few along the quays and around christchurch. a guy even came up to me on o'connell street and took some posters off me to "stick to his car" or something. and some trinity looking tosser in a big trench coat started abusing my intelligence, so i gave him some info about 133 and he just walked off, muttering something about begrudgers or something. and as for other sp posters, i only said what i did, i dont know what areas other comrades postered cos i didnt do it with them.
two words. facts. straight.

by scientist Sun Oct 20, 2002 19:06

Well comrade I live in the city centre, (thanks to paying a fortune to my greedy landlord) and I have never seen the sp or swp handing out any leaflets on Nice! However I have seen both the swp and the sp handing out leaflets advertising their 'meetings' on the coming oil war. I have also seen 'revolutionary youth' or some other nonsensically named group handing out leaflets on something or other but not Nice. I have been handed leaflets from LAN,SF, the Greens, The isfn, the Communist Party and even the WP but not from the sp or the swp, strange that the sp and swp leaflets seem to have invisible qualities, just like their posters, must be a new printing process, I hope it does not cost too much because you are a poor party after all unlike the millionaires in the CPI and LAN.

by humble worker Sun Oct 20, 2002 19:20

my work takes me along the Quays every day and around Christchurch as well as many other parts of Dublin and I have seen no sp posters in either place or anywhere on either the Northside or in Ballymun, Ballyfermot, Crumlin,Clondalkin, Tallaght etc. I have actually seen a couple and I mean a couple of badly printed and
badly put up SWP posters, but far far less than the number of LAN,SF,Greens, CPI or WP ones. So there are 2 possible answers, 1: the sp and swp are lying/exagerating? or 2: some Yes campaigners are pulling them down?
I leave people to make up their own minds

by Carpet Slipper Sun Oct 20, 2002 19:22

Perhaps when "Scientist" and the other twits who think the world begins and ends in O'Connell St open their eyes they'll discover that some of us were active in other areas of Dublin, not to mention the rest of the country.
Get on a bus, pay your fare (you'll probably get away child's fare) and look. The world is bigger that you tiny minded imagination.
Now run along home

by shifting sands Sun Oct 20, 2002 21:22

The SP as a party are being rightfully criticised for your lack of work in the Nice referendum, but you keep shifting the goalposts when someone exposes the truth of your invisible work, you say but we worked on the Quays or limerick, now it is somewhere else outside dublin. As we say in Dublin 'get up the yard' you lying muppets, we know who did the work and who did the minimum amount, its a tied race between yourselves and those other bullshitters the SWP for doing the least possible. No amount of lies will change this.

by OK - SP Sun Oct 20, 2002 23:17

I was on the stalls in the city centre, we were campaigning on Nice Treaty for a number of weeks. The city centre branch did 2 stalls a week.

In my branch we did go door to door on the issue. My branch also distributed leaflets in many areas in Dublin South.

Unfortunatly we cannot afford the same number of posters as SF, as I said before we don't take money from big business.

You cannot criticise SP and then not Joe Higgins. Joe is a member of the party, he's not an independent. If you do this you're taking your lead from the bourgeois media that would love to put Joe Higgins down as an independent.

I didn't get any LAN leaflets in my door, or any handed to me. No-one from LAN knocked on my door. That doesn't mean they didn't campaign on Nice, it means they are small and have limited resources.

by Wolfie Smyth Sun Oct 20, 2002 23:39

The reality is the LAN didn't do anything more than anyone else in the referendum campaign. The thing is you all THINK you did more. This is probably because you have never really worked in any campaign properly before.

What work did you do in the general election? I know you oppose standing candidates, fair enough.. But why didn't you use it as an oppurtunity to put forward your beliefs about elections? All you did is half heartedly put up a few posters in town asking people to pie polititians. Most of my friends though they were posters for soem crank independent candidate.

by Mc Grath hater Sun Oct 20, 2002 23:48

finian McGrath is a careerist. All he cares about is himself and his own career. By all accounts he is a bolllocks. I am sure the only reason he got on the helath alliance ticket is that he thought there was a few more votes to be had.

by Ray Mon Oct 21, 2002 09:22

While LAN members obviously haven't worked on election campaigns before, many of the activists in LAN have worked on referenda before. The abortion referenda, divorce, the last Nice campaign...

But a lot of this sniping is just ill-informed. LAN gave out about 50,000 leaflets, which is a lot for a small organisation, but is still only a fraction of the electorate. I'm sure there are plenty of people who didn't see a single LAN leaflet or poster through the entire campaign. The same is obviously true of the SP, the SWP, AFRI, and all of the small campaigns. There's no reason to believe that because you didn't get a leaflet through your door there weren't any leaflets produced.

I'm sure the political parties didn't do nearly as much work on the referendum as they would on an election - it would be unrealistic to expect anything else. But there's no point in saying that X group didn't do anything when you've no way of knowing if its true or not.

by Ray Mon Oct 21, 2002 09:24

As well as the posters, there were thousands of anarchist leaflets distributed in the last election, calling for people to spoil their votes. (I can't remember off-hand if they were produced by WSM or an umbrella group, but you can probably find it on the WSM site) So anarchists did 'use the election to explain their political beliefs'.

by Andrew Mon Oct 21, 2002 10:57

1. In terms of the last election WSM produced 15,000 leaflets.

2. The SP did poster O'Connell st, I saw a few of their posters around the GPO.

3. Nore to the point apperantly some cop (or fool) posted a fake 'LAN' press release to indymedia on Saturday with my name on it. If anyone kept a copy could they email it to [email protected] or post a summary of its contents.

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Mon Oct 21, 2002 11:48 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

This is the saddest thing I have seen on Indymedia in a long time. The referendum is over, we lost, and the first reaction of every faction and party is to find some-one to blame from another, despised faction/party. For the first time in a referendum I'm very proud of the campaign we ran. Sure we could have done better but that's always the case and considering the mounting debts from the election and the general exhaustion lingering from it we did well. We all did well. I was very impressed with LAN, with Afri, with Roger Cole who did an absolute mountain of work, with the comrades in the Article 133 Committee. We didn't lose this referendum because of fuck-ups on the No side. All round, we all did better than we did last time. But they still beat us. They had more money, and FF got their machine into gear in some areas. We lost, and the first reaction of some trolling gobshite is to start a row about who is to blame, and then everyone else gets dragged into it defending their group, castigating others and the like. I almost wish I was a Yes voter so I could log onto Indymedia and watch yese tear strips off each other. All we need now is some prick to post 'Ten Reasons to Hate Everyone Else's Nice Campaign' and we can be away.

To correct an error of fact on the Alliance stated in the thread. We were asked by the Alliance to contribute a certain figure and we gave it. We didn't give more because they didn't ask us.

by hs sp Mon Oct 21, 2002 12:04

First of people from all factions aren't complaining about what others did or didn't do. We are simply defending ourselves. Most of the people critisising I fear have little experience of working and have some idea thousands of posters put themselves up and thousands of leaflets print themselves and put themselves through doors. They also don't seem to realise (maybe they are young I don't know) people have commitments such as work and family. I worked 5 days a week over the summer and two evenings. All I had free was weekends on which I campaigned.
The SP for the general election concentrated on five constituencies, which most forces in two. This is our size. We'd love to run bigger campaigns but you need people for that. If the comrade in Limerick is so concerned about the SP not concentrating enough on working class areas, why don't you join and do something about it?
Last of all we print leaflets cheaply because we own a printer

by k - sp Mon Oct 21, 2002 17:02

i agree with hs (is that you henry?) and justin. we lost. ok. time to rebuild. i am not a liar as i was accused of being above. simple question, why would i come on indymedia and 'lie' about postering o'connell street? for anyone in LAN i'm sure you know Alan MacSimion? ask him is young sp kevin a liar, he'll tell you no.
i have also not slagged off any other groups' campaigns, and i am not going to. why? because i can accept defeat, and not go around pointing the finger at everyone else. in the words of the Streets: "Lets push things forward"

by King Mob Mon Oct 21, 2002 20:21

This is a time of joy for those of us who have fought you nationalists and your fake leftie hangers on. You and your littel Ireland movement has been beaten. Your program against Nice was a reactionary one,especially the Anarchists. Hah! National Libertarians. NA NA NA NA!!!! NA NA NA NA!!!!

by madman Mon Oct 21, 2002 21:43

who is the King mob idiot? Is he one of the losers going around tearing down posters?

by fair play Mon Oct 21, 2002 21:58

I suppose to be honest about Nice and work done/not done: SF fought an average to reasonable campaign, but did not get all their workers out. The SWP did very little almost nothing in fact. The SP did a tiny bit more than the SWP but not much either. The CPI and WP did a reasonable amount of work given their aging membership. Barrett did a lot of work and also a lot of damage. LAN and Roger and AFRI did great work with the smallest resourses of the lot. They used the resourses well and produced better posters and leaflets with better information than the other groups.

by John - Irish Socialist Network Tue Oct 22, 2002 00:47

Comrades/brothers/sisters,
The general tone of the messages,with some exceptions, has been devisive. I think the anti-capitalists should be thinking about the next battle and not squabbling about our defeat. We were up against all of the power and might of the establishment and IMO we fared quiet well.

How about, instead of waiting for the powers that be to decide the next battle, we sit down and pick an issue that WE agree collectively on, and take the battle to the bastards!

by M - sp Tue Oct 22, 2002 10:07

Fine, so long as the SWP is not involved. They had a golden opportunity to show to the Irish left that they can be trusted and they did nothing.

by hs sp Tue Oct 22, 2002 11:33

Completely agree with John, after all its not excatly the first time we've lost a ref. or election. On the other hand look at victories not being reported, the NIPSA elections in the North and the UCD elections, as well as the general anger outside. Things will bubble under the surface long before it reaches a mainstream. Indymedia itself is part of this.

by red under the bed Tue Oct 22, 2002 20:32

I think John has a good point we should work with the groups who put the work in on Nice, LAN,ISN,CPI, and Finian McGrath and Seamus Healy and may
be a couple of others such as some elements of the sp also did a bit, the swp were totally useless and will cause too much trouble trying to take anything new over.

by brickshithouse - mankind Tue Oct 22, 2002 21:49 BRICKsh_tHOMIE at hotmail dot com

it is apalling to c such arguein over nothin, i suggest u look at how pathetic it is to have arguements over posters etc. every group on no side gave it what their resources could.

by OK - SP Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:53

"some elements of the sp"

What are you talking about????

The SP did work on the Nice Treaty, probably more than most of the groups that you are praising!

We do not take corporate donations, we're involved in a great depth of community and trade union work, we do not ditch campaigns, and we do not get coverage in mainsteem media.

When you say 'elements of the sp' you really mean Joe Higgins. Well if you were really active on the left and didnt just get your info from mainsteem media you would be aware that Joe is just another Party member, difference is he's a TD and has a higher media profile.