Press Release: Anti-Fascist group removes racist posters

by Daithi - IMC Editorial Fri Oct 18, 2002 13:16

Comments are welcome on this article like any other and there is no need to confine this to an article further down the newswire.

This article is not a duplicate post, it is a new article with further information so discussion on it should not be pushed into a ghetto.

by Workers Hammer Fri Oct 18, 2002 13:23

Given that No2Nice first raised the immigration issue and that Barrett has been shown to have concrete links to the European far right why were AFA not taking down No2Nice posters. Was it just the memory that it was the Sparts who used to demand that 'Youth defence be crushed in the egg' that was stopping them? Or was it the RSF connection?

by AFA Fri Oct 18, 2002 13:25

Just making the point that the debate has already taken place, so people don't have to wear out there little fingers typing it all over again. But sure they could 'cut 'n' paste' the previous points. :)

by # Fri Oct 18, 2002 13:28

"So Mr Anarchist you would leave up posters and stickers which say "Kill all Niggers"?

No
by Ray Fri, Oct 18 2002, 10:33am

No more than I'd leave up posters that said "Abuse all children", "Kill all anarchists", "Shoot Jews on sight", or "Kill all Rangers fans" "

OK Ray we are now getting places. Would you leave up a poster which said "Blacks out of Ireland"?

by AFA Fri Oct 18, 2002 13:28

The No2Nice crowd are fighting the referendum on a range of issues, not just immigration. The ICP is solely trying to whip up race hate. We know about No2Nice, where do you think the info on Barrett came from - Fianna Fail?? Barrett will keep for the time being.

by AFA Fri Oct 18, 2002 13:28

The No2Nice crowd are fighting the referendum on a range of issues, not just immigration. The ICP is solely trying to whip up race hate. We know about No2Nice, where do you think the info on Barrett came from - Fianna Fail?? Barrett will keep for the time being.

by pat c Fri Oct 18, 2002 13:30

the no to nice posters are not racist. if they were we would take them down.

by Daithi Fri Oct 18, 2002 13:32

Thanks AFA - I think it's better that comments go here as there are more details in the press release than in the original article. I'm sure plenty of people have things to say ;)

by Ray Fri Oct 18, 2002 13:57

"OK Ray we are now getting places. Would you leave up a poster which said "Blacks out of Ireland"?"

I think this is getting into a wide grey area. I might take down the ones I saw, without going looking for them - it would depend on a lot of things. I might also take down posters that read "Anarchists Smell", "Rangers fans should be tortured, but left alive", and "Arsenal for the premiership", without thinking any of them are fascist.

Have you seen any of these posters anywhere? Is that what the ICP posters said? Would you leave up an SWP poster that said "AFA are a bunch of wankers"? How about a PD poster that said "Socialists are stupid"?

by AFA Fri Oct 18, 2002 14:23

So if something is a grey area it absolves you from having an opinion on it, or working one out?

The points you make are silly, some of the examples you give are obviously not political. But you seem to be basing your arguments on some form of political view. If people pull down non-political posters it is for other reasons and that is their business. Posters themselves are not some form of scared expression that must be protected, they are just posters.

AFA takes action against far-right organisers - people trying to set up racist groups or organise politically on the basis of racism or fascism. As activists will know most of our work is political, not physical. Actually the poster question is a diversion from lots of more important things, so it is funny that people get so wrapped up in debating it.

The ICP posters say 'Vote No' and that Nice will lead to more immigration. They also have ICP contact details on them. They have been posted in Dublin 7, also Cork and a few in Mayo, of all places.

If the SWP put up such a poster it would be taken down, because it was an attack on AFA. Bringing the SWP into the debate is actually irrelevant - they have taken down ICP posters in Cork, and racist stickers in Dublin. Fair play to them.

by Ray Fri Oct 18, 2002 15:27

If I took those posters down, it would be because I found them personally offensive, not because I thought they were fascist. There's a big grey area between 'being offended' and 'being offended enough to take something down'. Either way, I don't go looking for stuff that offends me. I'm not going to travel to Drumcondra (or wherever) so I can look at a poster and think "Ooh, those bastards", and take it down. That's like prudes turning on Channel 4 so they can be shocked. If a poster saying "Anarchists smell" goes up outside my house I'll take it down, but I won't be going looking for it.

- Posters themselves are not some form of scared expression that must be protected, they are just posters

Where do you draw that line?

The problem I have is that people are blurring the distinction between posters (or people) that express disagreeable opinions and fascists, and saying they should all be treated the same way. That's a very dangerous path to start down.

by AFA Fri Oct 18, 2002 15:49

I see. So racism is only relevant if it is taking place on your road? Great. So whenever we hear of the fascist stromtroopers in jackboots and funny uniforms on your block we'll let you know Ray. Just so you can scoot out and smash 'em.
You seem to be seriously suggesting that posters (and perhaps other manifestations of people organising racism) should be ignored because they do not effect you personally.

by Ray Fri Oct 18, 2002 16:03

- So racism is only relevant if it is taking place on your road?

Given that I've been involved in anti-racist work for years, and have given out plenty of AFA leaflets alongside AFA members, you know that is not what I meant. Even if you didn't know all that though, you could still just go by what I said, which is that I'll take down posters that I find personally offensive if they're in front of me, but I don't go out looking to be offended. I understand the caricature is easier to argue with than my position is, but still...

The way to tackle racist ideas is to distribute an anti-racist message. That's more effective, both because the anti-racist message is stronger and because tearing down racist posters isn't going to change the ideas in people's heads - at best it means they won't bother postering anymore.

Tearing down the posters of those who you agree with politically is the wrong way to deal with ideas you don't like. If you have confidence in your ideas, then you should be confident that they'll convince more people than the other ideas.

The only reason to adopt the 'no platform' policy is because fascists don't compete on the level of ideas, they try to physically supress opposition instead. If they use those tactics, then its justified to use the same tactics against them.

But the ICP haven't been attacking the opposition. They are not trying to drive the left off the streets. They are still competing on the level of ideas. And as long as that's true, then that's the level we should fight them on.

by pat c Fri Oct 18, 2002 16:55

"Given that I've been involved in anti-racist work for years, and have given out plenty of AFA leaflets alongside AFA members, you know that is not what I meant. Even if you didn't know all that though, you could still just go by what I said, which is that I'll take down posters that I find personally offensive if they're in front of me, but I don't go out looking to be offended. I understand the caricature is easier to argue with than my position is, but still... "

so you gave out some leaflets & did anti racist work. big deal. what do you want? a medal & a pension? your position is a cariciture.

"The way to tackle racist ideas is to distribute an anti-racist message. That's more effective, both because the anti-racist message is stronger and because tearing down racist posters isn't going to change the ideas in people's heads - at best it means they won't bother postering anymore. "

i agree with counter postering & leafleting & have done so as you well know. i do believe tearing down posters works. it also means they won't be there to give thugs that final push which results in attacks on immigrants.

"Tearing down the posters of those who you agree with politically is the wrong way to deal with ideas you don't like. If you have confidence in your ideas, then you should be confident that they'll convince more people than the other ideas. "

i presume you mean disagree with? we have confidence in our ideas thats exactly why we pull down the posters. we're not worried about what the middle class cabal of imc think.

"The only reason to adopt the 'no platform' policy is because fascists don't compete on the level of ideas, they try to physically supress opposition instead. If they use those tactics, then its justified to use the same tactics against them. "

the icp posters as you well know stir up racial hatred & result in physical attacks on refugees. this is why they must be taken down.
do you think these attacks come from a vacuum?

"But the ICP haven't been attacking the opposition. They are not trying to drive the left off the streets. They are still competing on the level of ideas. And as long as that's true, then that's the level we should fight them on"

the icp give oxygen & cover to those who are trying to build fascist organisations. if the icp are allowed to meet or distribute literature or put up posters then these type of ideas become more acceptable. it makes it easier for the boneheads (who have been shadowung left wing marchs) to organise.

by Ray Fri Oct 18, 2002 17:05

If you agree that the 'no platform' policy should apply to people who aren't fascists, where do you draw the line?

by AFA Fri Oct 18, 2002 17:11

Ray, I am getting bored with this. I have other things to be doing than constantly replying to posts when you won’t listen.

The ICP are NOT putting up the posters to ‘offend’ anyone – they are doing it to gain support for themselves. This is also why they run in elections. So your reason for pulling or not pulling them down is based on a ridiculous interpretation of what you THINK the ICP is doing. I was not caricaturing your positions – what you said certainly appeared to be that so long as the posters were out of your sight then that was OK. It is not for AFA. We are not going to agree there.

In several posts now you say you have given out AFA leaflets – good, fair enough, thanks, so have lots of other people. There are no medals going for it though. We welcome support from all willing to give it.

You know that we tackle racist ideas in our areas and present alternatives, etc. in terms of campaigns for facilities, resources and all that stuff. Also giving our thousands of AFA anti-racist leaflets and putting up posters, stickers, etc. work with local groups, football fans and youth, run gigs and loads of other things. Removing posters, stopping racist/fascist meetings and other such activities probably take up about 1% of our time, but this is what you keep focussing in on, for some reason. The truth is that you are unwilling to take these actions and so want to argue about them. To be honest we don’t care. We know what the WSM position is. Ours is different. That’s it. In general AFA members would not have much time for the SWP, but at least they lash down the ICP posters and don’t make a song, dance and write a long thesis about it.

Perhaps you are trying to make out your role is ‘political’ and ours is not, which is untrue. At the risk of being denounced as ‘sectarian’ I will point out that there used to be an Anti-Racist Campaign composed of people, like yourself, who opposed the AFA perspective and others who supported our view. The ARC group closed down or dissolved. Why was never really explained. The WSM and its circle have not had much involvement in anti-racist work since, though some have leafleted, etc. with AFA. AFA however still exists, and has done for 10 years, which would seem to indicate stronger political philosophy and commitment from members.

We are not going to sit around waiting until the ICP and/or similar are organised enough to challenge us. I would suggest you read the article on Immigration Control groups in Britain in the 1960s, which is in the current issue of our magazine ‘No Quarter’. There is also another one on the history of AFA here about how there were a few dozen Nazi boneheads here in the late ‘80s- early 90s. They didn’t attack us either, we attacked them and beat them off the street to the extent they came crying to us to submit their resignations from fascism. If we hadn’t done that what do you think the situation would be now in Dublin?? We don’t live in some nice little world where everyone agrees to an equivalency of activity, etc. until someone else does something, etc. definitions of different philosophies are discussed and then something else might be done. Probably a ‘rally’ of a few hundred with 12 speakers saying the same thing.

Also this is not about if the ‘left’ is driven off the streets or not. Fighting fascism is not about little factional groups, ‘the left’ can fight for itself if it wants to. We are not the bodyguards of ‘the left’, whatever that may be. AFA opposes fascism because it is a political force aimed at destroying the political and economic power of the working class. Which is quite a different thing from ‘the left’.

Just to update people another large batch of ICP posters have gone up in the Navan Road and Finglas areas. So while we are sitting here arguing those bastards are out there spreading race hatred. Sad or what.

P.S. You can take this as a reply to your and Andrew’s point on the previous thread too. Life really is too short to be typing it all again.

by pat c Fri Oct 18, 2002 17:21

the wsm are worth debating with but ray isn't.

his brain is in thrall to the middle class lifestyle-"ananarchist" ideology of the imc

he won't do anything to upset their liberal sensibilities.

by Ray Fri Oct 18, 2002 17:27

- The ICP are NOT putting up the posters to ‘offend’ anyone

And I didn't suggest this. I explained that I might pull down some posters if I found them offensive, not out of political principle, and I expressed my opinion that pulling down ICP posters out of political principle was a bad idea.

- what you said certainly appeared to be that so long as the posters were out of your sight then that was OK.

That's certainly not what I said. I said that I might find a poster offensive enough to take down if it was right in front of me, but I don't go looking to be offended. I think it was clear enough.

- In several posts now you say you have given out AFA leaflets – good, fair enough, thanks, so have lots of other people. There are no medals going for it though.

Nor am I looking for one. I just think its pretty dishonest to suggest that I happily ignore racism when you're probably aware that I've been an active anti-racist for years.

- Also this is not about if the ‘left’ is driven off the streets or not.

And I didn't suggest it was. My point is that fascism does not equal racism. Fascism is defined, at least in part, by its attempts to physically destroy its opposition. The ICP haven't even taken the first steps towards that. That means that the ICP is not a fascist organisation. And if they're not fascists, then the 'no platform' policy should not be applied.

That's a simple principle - the only justification for denying someone the freedom of speech is that they are trying to deny it to you and to others. I think that's an important point for democracy, and history is full of groups who suppressed that right, while claiming it was for the best of reasons. I'm disappointed that an organisation like AFA, who I have a lot of time for otherwise, should take freedom of speech so lightly.

by whoever Fri Oct 18, 2002 19:58

you (ray)campaigned (in a real pain in the hole fashon during the summer)for articles to be removed from indymedia.ie if they did not fit within your concieved editorial guidelines. funny (not)that your here know argueing against people taking down icp posters. my mind boggles! and yes you can have your last word! bye bye.

by the HUB Fri Oct 18, 2002 21:19

Just stumbled onto this debate. ROCK ON AFA. your still fucking spot-on after all these years! keep it real!!! respect!!

WSM- i think ya need to look at your 'POSITION PAPER' again. one example.do ya stand behind this?

14. Where there is reasonable evidence that fascists are operating behind a racist organisation to build there strength or where a racist organisation is connected with physical attacks we also support a policy of denying such an organisation opportunities to organise. However if it is purely a case of advocating racist [ideas?] we do not deny the right of such people to organise although where appropriate we will organise the greatest numbers to demonstrate outside their meetings and against their ideas.

basically theres a wee-wee contradiction within this statement dont ya think. you've been critised for being too intellectualised in the past. sort it out?! u might find that people (particulary outside the anarchist movement thingy)will take ya more seriously. the streets talk!!

by bored Fri Oct 18, 2002 23:02

Nice is important, this drivel above is not. I thought Ray had more sense, than wating his time on this rubbish

by Ray Sat Oct 19, 2002 00:43

Im sorry ur right, i seem to have lost the run of my self this last while. I think its all this Bad fuckin irish weather...I

by niall Sat Oct 19, 2002 13:53

dont blame the weather for you been an arsehole,its good weather for oct dont ya think.
(NO DISCUSSION NEEDED).

by Revulsionary Sat Oct 19, 2002 19:02

HUB>>basically theres a wee-wee contradiction within this statement dont ya think. you've been critised for being too intellectualised in the past. sort it out?! u might find that people (particulary outside the anarchist movement thingy)will take ya more seriously. the streets talk!!<How about you point out the contradiction in the statement you quoted?

Also whats the "critised for being too intellectualised" line al about? All dose wid glasses will be executed come the glorious day of the ilideratez revolushun? Ya can talk, but it doesn't make fuck all sense HUB.

by Aine Ni Chonaill - ICP Mon Oct 21, 2002 12:44

Those nasty AFA people missed some of my posters and it was good of you to leave them up.

Did you see the wonderful stickers put up around Croke Park yesterday? They pointed out how those feckless refugees get free houses, cars, hairdos and twice as much social benefits as Irish citizens.

I am sure you also agree with leaving them up and the one about stopping the New Invasion of Ireland. That one compares the refugees to Cromwell, the Black and Tans etc.

I hear a member of the WSM pulled down my posters in Cork. I am sure that you will lobby the WSM to have him expelled.

by Ray Mon Oct 21, 2002 13:28

Am I to understand that you're a supporter of Fianna Fail? What other conclusion should we draw from the fact that FF plastered the country in posters a few months ago, and you left them all up? I wonder how your good friend Bertie would react though, if he knew that you were extending the same courtesy to the PDs, Fine Gael, and even the Labour party? Keeping all your options open, are you? Haven't decided which element of the bourgeoisie you want to ally yourself with, have you? Well when Charlie McCreevy starts cutting back on vital services, and the PDs launch another attack on the workers, I hope you're satisfied.

by Aine Ni Chonnail Mon Oct 21, 2002 13:52

I now know you do support the anti-immigrant stickers the ICP & IPP put up. You really are wonderful at avoiding the question by bringing in
FF FG and the PDs.

The nassty lefties will not find out but I am certain you have already complained to the WSM about their member in Cork who pulled down my posters.

You are such a sweet boy and you do such useful work for us. Keep it up!

by Michael McDowell - Minister of Justice Mon Oct 21, 2002 14:41

I'd just like to congratulate AFA for their wonderful work with the ICP sideshow. While you are busy beating your chests about chasing Aine around the streets of Dublin I'm busy deporting hundreds of refugees. Thanks for all the help boys!

by Michael McDowell Mon Oct 21, 2002 15:52

That was not me. I would have you closed down if I didn't have so much appreciation for all the good work done by Ray and his Indymedia friends in splitting the left.

Well done boys. You support the ICP and the IPP. Even as a capitalist politican I can see this. You claim to be against racism yet you leave up posters and stickers which result in attacks on immigrants.

My friends in the Special Branch have been keeping an eye on these AFA types and you can be well sure they do more than chase after Aine (anyway they are wasting there time chasing that woman, her heart already belongs to Ray).

Anyway, to save my colleagues time and money (cutbacks you know) in updating their files. What is your exact position regarding the Invasion and Immigrant Allowances stickers?

by red one Mon Oct 21, 2002 21:22

Ah sure let these political retards run around tearing up posters, it keeps them out of the pub for a while, I wish the swp never kicked them out at least they had some minimal control over the frankenstein they created. At least we in the SP can never be blamed for our irresponsibility in forming such an unstable group in the first place. Even though we are getting as lot of grief on Indymedia for not doing enough work during Nice, this is partially true but at least we did more than the idiots pulling down posters did.

by pat c Tue Oct 22, 2002 10:50

red one you are an idiot. if you are in the sp you are not representative of them. afa has worked with the sp in the past & i'm sure will do so again.

the members of afa as individuals have also worked with the sp in pro choice, anti charges & other activities.

most if not all of afa were active in various anti nice campaigns.

afa was not thrown out of the swp. only 2 or 3 members were ever in the swp.

the swp also took down icp posters. fair play to them

by Ray Tue Oct 22, 2002 11:44

- if you are in the sp you are not representative of them

You know Pat, this whole argument about pulling down posters arose because Andrew and I tried to clear up some possible confusion between LAN and AFA. This triggered an angry response from you that you were in both organisations.

You may be in LAN, but since LAN doesn't have any policy on pulling down ICP posters, on this subject at least you are not representative of LAN.

by ignorance is bliss Tue Oct 22, 2002 21:36

red action, who claim the credit for setting up afa, themselves say they were in the swp until they were expelled for being 'squadists'

by pat c Wed Oct 23, 2002 13:19

in case you haven't noticed ireland is a seperate country from britain. but then you west brits wouldn't.

afa in britain may well have been "set up" by red action.

afa ireland, an independent organisation, was set up by republican & socialist activists, those who were in ra at the time were a minority.

by pat c Wed Oct 23, 2002 13:33

only ray with his schoolboy sophistry would try & associate (1) my querying of whether red ones views represented sp policy
with

(2) a totally seperate discussion re lan.

joint work between afa & sp has taken place. this is a fact. quite clearly "red one" does not represent the views of the sp.

the lan argument is a matter of DIFFERING OPINIONS.

"You know Pat, this whole argument about pulling down posters arose because Andrew and I tried to clear up some possible confusion between LAN and AFA. This triggered an angry response from you that you were in both organisations."

oh, you & andrew were clearing up confusion. was i causing it then? your response wasn't angry? of course not, yours read as if gandhi had written it. again you think your opinions are laws of nature.

i was in both organisations. that is a fact.

"You may be in LAN, but since LAN doesn't have any policy on pulling down ICP posters, on this subject at least you are not representative of LAN. "

and equally IN MY OPINION by leaving icp posters up you are not representative of LAN.
a long time ago i suggested we agree to disagree on this, but you won't . you can't.
you must always be right.

you are the great anarchist god of chaos