ICP Posters

by E Wed Oct 16, 2002 12:00

Hi,

ICP posters have appeared in Cork out in the southside and have been taken down out where Ted Neville lives in Cork I believe.

by Aunty Party Wed Oct 16, 2002 12:50

LAN Posters
by AAA - Anti-Anarchist Action Wed, Oct 16 2002, 10:45am
address: C/o PO Box 3355, Dublin 7 [email protected]

Some 'Libertarians agains Nice' posters have appeared

The LAN had some 'No to Nice' posters up in Dublin, going on about Nice leading to trade agreements.

They are black and white A3 corriboard posters. These ones were on Blackhorse Avenue, and also a
few in Stoneybatter.

If people see others could they please report them to [email protected].

Even if you remove them please let us know where they were as this info may be useful.

related link: www.geocities.com/irishaaa

Now how would you like this?

"Anti-Fascist"? Give us a break.

What did you do in the referendum, Johnnie?
Well young man, I went around taking down posters of groups I disagreed with.
We called ourselves "Anti-Fascist Action".

by Anarcho-Hater Wed Oct 16, 2002 12:57

Oh what a joy, a new front group hosted at the usual postal address, aimed at real enemies of the state.

by concerned Wed Oct 16, 2002 12:59

just to check, but aren't we supposed to be pretending that those who disagree with us are enemies of the people and/or true democracy. I thought being an enemy of the state was a good thing.

by E Wed Oct 16, 2002 13:05

What started as an important posting bringing to peoples attention the antics of the ICP and their posters ends up as slander attempt. Actually the real SWP post box is PO Box 1648 Dublin 8 as I'm sure everyone knows. So that comment about "AAA" or whatever is a troll and an attempt to stir things up.

by pat c Wed Oct 16, 2002 13:33

icp are a racist organisation. their posters are clearly racist & will be taken down.

are you suggesting the LAN posters are in some way racist?

do you believe that racist posters should be allowed up, regardless of attacks on immigrants which might result from them?

do you support the icp?

are you going to put back up any icp posters which are taken down?

what is your point?

by Andrew Wed Oct 16, 2002 13:49

Probably worth pointing out that it was AFA rather then LAN taking down posters and that in fact there would be disagreement between the groups and individuals involved in that issue. We've been disagreeing about it for some time in fact! In terms of the WSM our own position is online at http://struggle.ws/ppapers/racism.html The relevant sections are below

12. Fascism is not a special case of racism, it is a separate phenomena, there have been fascist groups to which racism was not central. Fascists are different because there aim is not to win any argument but rather to drive there opponents off the streets and terrorise the population. Fascism exists as a last bastion of capitalism, to be resorted to when 'normal' methods fail.

13. Therefore we apply quite different tactics towards fighting fascism. We support a policy of denying fascists any opportunity to organise, recognising that such opportunities what ever there supposed purpose, will be used to organise terror.

14. Where there is reasonable evidence that fascists are operating behind a racist organisation to build there strength or where a racist organisation is connected with physical attacks we also support a policy of denying such an organisation opportunities to organise. However if it is purely a case of advocating racist [ideas?] we do not deny the right of such people to organise although where appropriate we will organise the greatest numbers to demonstrate outside their meetings and against their ideas.

by AFA - Anti-Fascist Action Wed Oct 16, 2002 13:54 afa at ireland dot com C/o PO Box 3355, Dublin 7

I had hoped that people might take this issue seriously and realise the danger of ICP's views being promoted as mainstream politics, etc.

But obviously there are idiot readers who have plenty of time to waste posting rubbish. Maybe s/he is trying to be funny. A clear failure there.

AFA has nothing to do with the SWP and isn't a front for anyone.

If any person has sensible information about the distribution of these ICP posters please let us know. We have already had a few responses, so thanks to the people who took the time to mail us.

by Aunty Party Wed Oct 16, 2002 14:21

I would suggest that anyone who sees an ICP poster does something constructive like erect a progressive poster beside it, or leaflet the area with their own leaflets.

I suggest that anyone concerned about liberty and the right to put forward their own arguments does NOT inform the thought-police in AFA.

If you do that you will be collaborating with the suppression of unpopular opinions. If that's your style then so be it.

By the way I know that LAN is not connected with AFA - the thing earlier on was trying to point out how the opinions of anarchists and libertarians could be treated by a right-wing group similar to AFA.

The SWP, folks, has nothing to do with this at all so anyone who tried to pick that up from what I wrote is talking through their asshole.

by pat c Wed Oct 16, 2002 14:55

aunty
come out from behind your mask you cowardly scumbag.

why don't you say those things face to face to an afa member?

you won't because you are just another one of the craven middle class lifestyle "anarchist" wankers who infest indymedia.

andrew

LAN doesn't have a position one way or another about icp posters. if you want it to adopt such a position, then call a national conference.

in the interim i'll be pulling down icp posters as both an afa member & a lan member.

you can leave icp posters up as both a wsm member & a lan member.

there is no point in us continuing our no platform debate here. we are not going to agree.
so lets behave like comrades & agree to disagree.

By the way the SWP have taken down icp posters in Cork.

well done comrades.

by Andrew Wed Oct 16, 2002 15:01

Err Pat I was pointing out that we didn't have a position, ie "there would be disagreement between the groups and individuals involved in that issue". Pervious posters were obviously trying to suggest that the AFA position was the LAN position (or more oddly that both were the same organisation). I agree that these isn't much to be gained from revisiting the debate at the moment...

by pat c Wed Oct 16, 2002 15:02

aunty
come out from behind your mask you cowardly scumbag.

why don't you say those things face to face to an afa member?

you won't because you are just another one of the craven middle class lifestyle "anarchist" wankers who infest indymedia.

what have you been doing to fight for a no vote?

andrew

LAN doesn't have a position one way or another about icp posters. if you want it to adopt such a position, then call a national conference.

in the interim i'll be pulling down icp posters as both an afa member & a lan member.

you can leave icp posters up as both a wsm member & a lan member.

there is no point in us continuing our no platform debate here. we are not going to agree.
so lets behave like comrades & agree to disagree.

By the way the SWP have taken down icp posters in Cork.

well done comrades.

by pat c Wed Oct 16, 2002 15:09

"Probably worth pointing out that it was AFA rather then LAN taking down posters "

read what YOU wrote andrew.

i'm pulling down icp posters as a member of LAN & of afa.

you are leaving up icp posters as a member of LAN & of wsm.

Unless LAN adopts a position then the above remains the case.

by pat c Wed Oct 16, 2002 15:09

"Probably worth pointing out that it was AFA rather then LAN taking down posters "

read what YOU wrote andrew.

i'm pulling down icp posters as a member of LAN & of afa.

you are leaving up icp posters as a member of LAN & of wsm.

Unless LAN adopts a position then the above remains the case.

by Ray Wed Oct 16, 2002 15:30

I don't think its controversial to point out that AFA has a policy of pulling down ICP posters, while LAN doesn't (and some members of LAN would oppose such a policy). And its clear that the original article, which encouraged the removal of posters, was from AFA.

I think its clear that you pull down posters because you're in AFA, not because you're in LAN. The fact that you are also a member of LAN has no more relevance to the issue than the fact that your name is Pat.

(I'm not going to get into the argument about whether or not the posters should be taken down, just pointing out that its clearly nothing to do with LAN)

by jamie - swss Wed Oct 16, 2002 15:47

spotted some of those posters in knock co.mayo as well

by pat c Wed Oct 16, 2002 15:54

you don't tell me what i do as a member of lan & iwon't tell you what to do.

lan has no policy against pulling down icp posters.

so unless you are the great anarchist god of chaos my opinion is worth just as much as yours is.
so i'll continue to pull down icp posters as a member of lan.

as other lan members will.

if you dont like that, then hold your breath until you turn purple.

by Ray Wed Oct 16, 2002 16:09

I'm just saying your decision to pull down posters has as much to do with your membership of LAN as it does to do with being born in Limerick, being a member of ILDA, watching West Wing on TV, enjoying pizza, and drinking Carling Black Label.

You can pull down posters and do all of these things (though not, I'd hope, at the same time). It doesn't change the fact that they are all unrelated - they have nothing more in common than the fact that you do them.

On the other hand, its AFA policy to pull down ICP posters, and you're a member of AFA. So when you pull down ICP posters its clearly related to your AFA membership.

by bored Wed Oct 16, 2002 16:13

Does every tread need the Pat and Ray show?
Get a room!

by Dearbhla Wed Oct 16, 2002 16:27

if i pull down ICP posters its clearly related to my _personal feelings_ about the racist trite this group try to spread. Its a personal act and has nothing to do with MEMBERSHIP of any special group...my gawd...are you all sheep or what? Think for yourselves!
The personal is the political etc...

by Charlie Chan Wed Oct 16, 2002 17:20

Ray has made some excellent points. So have the chaps from AFA and WSM. It's so nice to know the Left contains people of such intelligence and wit.

by King Mob Wed Oct 16, 2002 21:55

Intelligence and Wit should not be used in connection with Pat.

The great Irony is (and Pat doesn't get irony) someone from anti fascist action claims that using fascist tactics and behaviour (repression of free speech) is okay when repressing fascists.

Arguing that oppressing someones free speech because you disagree with their world view. Essentially oppressing freech speech is okay.

Arguing that oppressing a dangerous worldview will only help it bloom is also useless. Despite the historical evidence.

In short these are tedious fucking morons. Well maybe they're not but Pat sure as fuck is.

by Brian Wed Oct 16, 2002 23:29

Only 1 solution! Just deface them, mock them, undermine them, hell if you can stick an envelope to a Fianna Fail poster why not stick a swastika on an ICP, and write vote No to a totalitarian europe or something underneath, nuff said!

by infantile lefties Thu Oct 17, 2002 00:09

now that we are losing, it is inevietable that the unstable left will start pulling down posters and other childish nonsense. If they cannot restrain themselves from such foolishness, why dont they pull down racist fine geal party posters? Isnt ff aligned with a fascist group in the empire's parliament? Brian above is correct why cannot these morons re- decorate these posters such as was done with the PD kiddie porn ganga poster?

by rembrant Thu Oct 17, 2002 00:17

First on the re-decoration list should be the little green ff hexagonal shaped one on poles all over Dublin. It has a crap message "vote Yes for Jobs" I thought this nonsense went out in the 80s, even Blair in england no longer talks about "creating jubbs" I am suggesting we change one word in them to say "vote yes for Bribes"

p.s.Does anyone remmember the FF classic from Nice 1 "vote yes for a brighter Europe"

by Brian Thu Oct 17, 2002 11:04

well... in the town i live in thankfully no ICP poster have been erected but there are plenty of those "yes for jobs" bollix hanging around, so the night before the referenda i will be doing some alterations to ALL Fianna Fail posters, ie. super glueing brown envelopes with EU BRIBE written on them to each poster in the town, mur harr harr harr!

by pat c Thu Oct 17, 2002 14:59

you will be uncovered eventually mob.

the hungry porkers are waiting for you in north louth.

you are a cowardly scumbag & a fool who has to hide behind several masks.

you took rather a trouncing lately as "observer" didn't you?

by pat c Thu Oct 17, 2002 15:04

my opinion is worth just as much as yours is.
now why can't you accept that?
why is ray so special?
are your opinions laws of nature?

as a member of lan i will tear down posters, if you dont like that , take a long walk on a short pier.

whats the difference between ray & a stopped clock?

a stopped clock is right twice a day.

by pat c Thu Oct 17, 2002 15:09

as always i am happy to see that the actions of afa have annoyed so many of the middle class lifestyle-"anarchist" wankers on indymedia.

it proves we are doing the right thing.

so cowardly these petit bourgeois auto-eroticists, they have to hide behind masks.

by porky the pig Thu Oct 17, 2002 15:12

i i i i'mmm w w w waaaitinggg fffffforrr y y yyou mmmmmobbbbb

by Tom Barry Thu Oct 17, 2002 15:18

Uncover the identity of Aunty Party & King Mob!

Watch them being hunted cross country by foot beagles! (Rights already sold to Sky, will be shown free on RTE)

by Aine Ni Chonaill Thu Oct 17, 2002 15:31

Thank you so much for supporting my right to stir up racial hatred with my posters. By leaving them up a couple of more thugs will be inspired to batter refugees. They might even get to kill someone!

You make it all possible.

by Ray Thu Oct 17, 2002 16:03

If we were to take down or otherwise destroy _everything_ that _might_ stir up racial hatred, we wouldn't have time to take down posters because we'd be too busy burning down the libraries.

The argument is bollock when its the right using it to censor books, games and films that 'might inspire violence', and its bollocks here too.

If fascists start organising attacks on people then, yes, its appropriate to attack them first. But the correct response to a racist poster or leaflet is an anti-racist poster, and an anti-racist leaflet.

(and I wish people would put away their 'Satire for 5-year olds' books and post under their own names)

by Tamerlane Fri Oct 18, 2002 10:37

He is disturbed by satire now, just because he is incapable of writing satire himself.

So Mr Anarchist you would leave up posters and stickers which say "Kill all Niggers"?

by Brian Fri Oct 18, 2002 10:53

The same people that talk about how it's bad to take down fascist posters or modify them are the same ones who look back to the good old days of europe in the mid 30's when people took the fight to the fascists on the streets, guess they were wrong as well then, because im sure they tore down posters belonging to Hitler, Mussolini, Mosley, no? Take the fight to the fascists!

by Ray Fri Oct 18, 2002 10:59

- The same people that talk about how it's bad to take down fascist posters...

There is no evidence that Aine Ni Chonaill is a fascist, or that the ICP is fascist. They haven't been organising racist attacks, or attacks on trade unionists or lefties. If you find any evidence to the contrary then come back to me, but there's no point in labelling everybody you don't like 'fascist'. Freedom of speech is an important freedom, the 'no platform' policy should only be applied against fascists. Otherwise we're no better than the Leninists.

by Tamerlane Fri Oct 18, 2002 11:15

So Mr Anarchist you would leave up posters and stickers which say "Kill all Niggers"?

by Ray Fri Oct 18, 2002 11:33

No more than I'd leave up posters that said "Abuse all children", "Kill all anarchists", "Shoot Jews on sight", or "Kill all Rangers fans"

However, I will leave up posters by the ICP, the Christian Brothers, the SWP, the Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign, or even AFA.

So, where have you seen these "Kill all niggers" posters, and who put them up?

by Mags Fri Oct 18, 2002 13:01

That the ICP has attacked the trade unions - they picketed the ICTU office a few years back. Aine turned up with her racist crap at the trade union May Day march last year. She has also issued statements opposing the right of anti-racists to demonstrate. She has publiclly expressed her support for the FN in France and Le Pen, likewise Haider in Austria.
The links sections of foreign fascist websites have loads of links to the ICP site. Supporters of ICP also post on fascist websites openly expressing the most racist/pro-fascist views and stating they are downplaying language, etc. in their official policy.
It get tedious repeating these points all the time, and you never answer them. Do we wait until Aine and/or the other grouplets are organised enough to call a march or such. You will still be whinging on with the same crap and wracking your conscience about what YOU interpret the ICP et al as, rather than what REALITY says they are. But it's all a philosophical discussion really, so ignore reality.
Incidentally pulling down ANY stickers, posters, etc. is obviously censorship in your eyes - so why should you pull down the ones mentioned above if you haven't met, dbated and analysed the views of the persons putting them up! Sure they might not be fascists at all!

by Andrew Fri Oct 18, 2002 13:36

Mags the problem here is AFA is being fast and loose with whether it considers the ICP fascist or not. For instance there is a rather obvious difference between what Ray obviously meant by attacking trade unions and the ICP picketting ICTU. There is also a rather obvious difference between saying you don't want a particular group to have a right to demonstrate (anti-racists in the case of the ICP) and organising to drive them off the streets.

Anyone can link to a web site, the Sunday Times occasionally runs 'exposes' of the left on the basis of the odd people who choose to link to our sites. Likewise as this discussion demonstrates anyone can post to a bulletin board claiming whatever they like.

All of your evidence demonstrates that an eye should be kept on the ICP - and AFA do a good job in that regard. But it's not evidence that they are fascist, something that AFA quietly recognises as I've yet to see it state 'The ICP are fascist'.

We insist that it is important to be crystal clear about this BECAUSE we do support the 'No platform for fascists' policy when its applied to fascist groups. Sure the ICP like Youth Defence/No2Nice carries the germs from which organised fascism could emerge in this country. But as yet this has not happened nor is there any real evidence that sections within either group are planning to take such a path (actually there is a lot more evidence in the case of Barrett, turning up as a guest speaker at a conference amounts to several tons more then having a web page link to your site).

by Ray Fri Oct 18, 2002 13:46

- That the ICP has attacked the trade unions - they picketed the ICTU office a few years back.

A picket on the ICTU office or a protest at a MayDay march is very different from armed gangs beating the crap out of trade unionists or organising attacks on immigrants. Various lefties have picketed ICTU offices, heckled trade union speakers at May Day marches, and even taken trade unions to court!

- She has also issued statements opposing the right of anti-racists to demonstrate.

And Dublin Corporation has tried to pass by-laws preventing demonstrations from going ahead, and anti-racist campaigners have been arrested for taking part in demonstrations. All of which are very different from physically attacking anti-racist campaigners, and trying to drive the left off the streets.

- She has publiclly expressed her support for the FN in France and Le Pen, likewise Haider in Austria.

About 20% of the French population have also expressed their support for the FN.

- The links sections of foreign fascist websites have loads of links to the ICP site.

Does the ICP website contain links to foreign fascist sites?

- Supporters of ICP also post on fascist websites openly expressing the most racist/pro-fascist views and stating they are downplaying language, etc. in their official policy.

If you want to argue that some of the supporters of the ICP are close to fascism, and that they bear watching, I'd certainly agree. The same could be said about Youth Defence. That's very different from arguing that either the ICP or Youth Defence is a fascist organisation.

How many No to Nice posters have you taken down recently?

- It get tedious repeating these points all the time, and you never answer them.

I think they're answered above, and they've been answered before, but there you are...

I certainly think its possible (and I'm sure others would agree) that some of the people in the ICP could become the core of a _future_ fascist organisation. You/AFA seem to think that they're a lot closer to that stage than I do. But that doesn't mean that the ICP are already a fascist organisation, and I don't think the 'no platform' policy should be extended to all organisations that may, at some stage in the future, become fascist.

- Do we wait until Aine and/or the other grouplets are organised enough to call a march or such.

No, we wait until people are organising attacks, and then we hit them back, harder. Until then, if they put up racist posters, we put up twice as many anti-racist posters. If they give out leaflets, we give out twice as many. If they hold a march, we organise a march that will dwarf theirs.

I actually agree with quite a lot of AFA's analysis, about how to fight fascism when it arises, and that the success of fascism is due to the failure of the left to counter their arguments. But the ICP aren't organising physical attacks yet (and they may never reach that stage). The fight is not yet for control of the streets, we're still at the stage (and hopefully always will be) of the battle of ideas.

-You will still be whinging on with the same crap and wracking your conscience about what YOU interpret the ICP et al as, rather than what REALITY says they are. But it's all a philosophical discussion really, so ignore reality.

Mags, you know I've done a lot of anti-racist work, including giving out AFA leaflets, so its not just a philosphical discussion for me. Frankly, I think that its your interpretation of the ICP that's off-base. This subject has come up quite a few times over the years, and you've never been able to come up with any evidence of the ICP organising attacks on _anyone_. All the evidence so far is that they're a fringe racist group, some of whose membership might like to talk about fascism now and again but aren't likely to do anything about it.

- Incidentally pulling down ANY stickers, posters, etc. is obviously censorship in your eyes - so why should you pull down the ones mentioned above if you haven't met, dbated and analysed the views of the persons putting them up! Sure they might not be fascists at all!

Have you actually seen any of these "Kill all Rangers fans" posters anywhere, or is this just a philosophical discussion?

by pat c Fri Oct 18, 2002 15:49

we are not going to solve ahything by rehashing the same arguments.

i suggested long ago we agree to disagree but ray with his monumental ego has to go on & on.

however:

"Have you actually seen any of these "Kill all Rangers fans" posters anywhere, or is this just a philosophical discussion?"

ray was the first person to mention such a poster. he is now so self-deluded he doesn't know whether he is coming or going.

by curious onlooker Fri Oct 18, 2002 22:03

and I dont on censorship but he has clearly won the arguaments above, and he has done it by using a little reason and logic. However I fear it will be lost on some of the above who prefer slogans and half truths (that rarely if ever stand up) to analysis.

by pat c Mon Oct 21, 2002 13:31

"and I dont on censorship but he has clearly won the arguaments above, and he has done it by using a little reason and logic. However I fear it will be lost on some of the above who prefer slogans and half truths (that rarely if ever stand up) to analysis. "

logic? what logic? if you think ray won then at least point to the arguments you found convincing.

he will pull down a "kill all niggers" poster, but he is ambivalent about "blacks out of ireland"; he supports leaving up the icp anti-immigrant rant. such cant!

he also accuses people of thinking up slogans he invented himself; eg the "rangers" one.

ray goes thru so many contortions (ray is always right you know) that he doesn't know if hes coming or going.

by wacky name Tue Oct 22, 2002 18:00

In the past the wsm have supported those who denied David Irving the right to free speech. Can you tell me why was this? Do you classify Irving as a fascist and if so why? Has he ever claimed to be a fascist? Is he a member of any fascist organisation? Has he attempted ?to drive their opponents off the streets and terrorise the population? ? Has he ? been organising racist attacks, or attacks on trade unionists or lefties?? Or is the ?fascist bad, organised racists ok? ideal a perfect excuse for the liberal left to avoid confrontation yet again?