the fourth estate????

by Hans Rockle Mon Sep 09, 2002 15:42

Friedrich is dead on; mob would make an excellent stand in for krusty the clown.

King Mob tries to conceal his ignorance with pompous and arrogant phrases but all he does is make himself ridiclious with his gibberish.

His style is flat, bombastic and bragging.

Congratulations King Mob. You qualify as the stupidest person on Irish Indymedia.

by Charlotte Despard Mon Sep 09, 2002 11:36

"Oh that the free would stamp the impious name
of King into the dust."

Ode to Liberty
P.B. Shelley

by Friedrich Oswald Mon Sep 09, 2002 11:27

so mob you want to go on about the tutus and hutus?

i think maybe you mean tutsi & hutu tribes.

the war between them is classical example of imperialisms divide, conquer & rule strategy. belgian imperialism used the tutsi tribe as their local agents to rule over the hutu. this prevented any unity against belgian overlords.

what was left after belgium left was typical legacy of colonialism. imperialism is reponsible not nationalism.

same as brits did in ireland. british imperialism is responsible for situation in north not the republicans.

only a harlequin like you would say the gaa are the same as the orange order.

by pat c Fri Sep 06, 2002 14:21

i thought you might have read him.

read some of HIS stuff (if you have time! drat only 24 hrs in a day)) & go to a few more links.

hes also had a major influence in literary criticism.
eg Declan Kiberd: Inventing Ireland

"Just as Ireland has produced many brilliant writers in the past century, so these writers have produced a new Ireland. In a book unprecedented in its scope and approach, Declan Kiberd offers a vivid account of the personalities and texts, English and Irish alike, that reinvented the country after centuries of colonialism. The result is a major literary history of modern Ireland, combining detailed and daring interpretations of literary masterpieces with assessments of the wider role of language, sport, clothing, politics, and philosophy in the Irish revival.

In dazzling comparisons with the experience of other postcolonial peoples, the author makes many overdue connections. Rejecting the notion that artists such as Wilde, Shaw, Yeats, Joyce, and Beckett became modern to the extent that they made themselves "European," he contends that the Irish experience was a dramatic instance of experimental modernity and shows how the country's artists blazed a trail that led directly to the magic realism of a García Márquez or a Rushdie. Along the way, he reveals the vital importance of Protestant values and the immense contributions of women to the enterprise. Kiberd's analysis of the culture is interwoven with sketches of the political background, bringing the course of modern Irish literature into sharp relief against a tragic history of conflict, stagnation, and change. "

Inventing Ireland restores to the Irish past a sense of openness that it once had and that has since been obscured by narrow-gauge nationalists and their polemical revisionist critics. In closing, Kiberd outlines an agenda for Irish Studies in the next century and detects the signs of a second renaissance in the work of a new generation of authors and playwrights, from Brian Friel to the younger Dublin writers. "

from:

http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/KIBINV.html

for once i don't think a publishers blurb is overblown. it doesn't say enough.

by Ray Fri Sep 06, 2002 13:27

This is the first I've heard of him. Stuff like "According to Fanon, true revolution can only come from the peasants, or fellahin, of Africa" doesn't exactly inspire me with confidence though.

by pat c Fri Sep 06, 2002 13:13

Lenin on the National Question

THE SOCIALIST REVOLUTION AND THE RIGHT OF NATIONS TO SELF-DETERMINATION (THESES) http://www.maoism.org/lenin/natcol.htm
-----------------------------------------
Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism
www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1916lenin-imperialism.html
----------------------------------
Marx and Engels on Poland
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/poland/index.htm
__________________________________________

Jenny Marx on Ireland
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/bio/family/jenny/1870-ire.htm

----------------------------------------
more at:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/date/index.htm
_______________________________________
Frantz Fanon

http://www.emory.edu/ENGLISH/Postcolonial/Fanon.html

http://www.emory.edu/ENGLISH/Bahri/Fanon.html

http://65.107.211.206/post/poldiscourse/fanon/fanon1.html

http://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/philosophy/works/ot/fanon.htm

_________________________________________

rosa luxemburg
http://www.idsi.net/~lepore/soc/luxemburg.htm

http://www.marxists.org/archive/luxembur/works/index.htm

by Ray Fri Sep 06, 2002 12:41

I think this is where we agree to disagree...

by pat c Fri Sep 06, 2002 12:39

ray

i know you are an anti-imperialist & nothing will be acheived by us debating minutae of difference on nationalism.

whatever about your opinions on the rest i do think anarchists can glean lessons from the writings of marx & engels. they can hardly be blamed for the consequences of stalinism.

even in luxemburg, you will find criticism of the bolshevik terror policy which took place after the assassination of sverdlov & the wounding of lenin.

by Ray Fri Sep 06, 2002 11:56

-i don't claim these are perfect sources but they (as internationalists) do point towards the positive aspects of nationalism & national liberation struggles.

I know, but you're appealing to all of these people as support for the idea that nationalism has positive aspects. And I'm just pointing out that it wouldn't be the first time they were wrong.

- i don't think every deed carried out or word written by these people should be rejected because i disagree with their methods of political organisation. or what some them did in power.

Nor do I, but if you're going to appeal to authority then its best to pick authorities that aren't obviously flawed :)

- i didn't include stalin in this. you know i'm not a stalinist. so why bring him up.

Because you had a list with Marx, Engels, Trotsky, Zinoviev, and Castro, and Stalin is an obvious addition. After all, he did agree with the rest of them that nationalism had positive aspects. And I'm pretty sure it was Stalin who wrote the official Bolshevik policy on nationalism, identifying the six criteria that together defined a 'nation'.

- i also pointed to where the wsm position on anti imperialism was available.

True enough. I'm not particularly looking to get into an argument with you over nationalism, though I know we disagree. I was just struck by the list of names you came up with in support of your ideas.

by pat c Fri Sep 06, 2002 11:39

i don't claim these are perfect sources but they (as internationalists) do point towards the positive aspects of nationalism & national liberation struggles.

i don't think every deed carried out or word written by these people should be rejected because i disagree with their methods of political organisation. or what some them did in power.

i didn't include stalin in this. you know i'm not a stalinist. so why bring him up.

i also pointed to where the wsm position on anti imperialism was available.

by Ray Fri Sep 06, 2002 11:28

...if I had to write a list of 'misinformed socialists, it would probably look a bit like that. (And don't forget that Stalin also "wrote on the positive aspects of nationalism...", in fact didn't he write the book on it?)

by pat c Fri Sep 06, 2002 10:39

once again king mob resorts to abuse; reasoned adult argument seems to be beyond him.

he is refusing to give straight answers to simple questions, so, by default i can only presume he does not support the right of the "natives" to determine their own destiny.

he continually harps on about how "all nationalism is bad"; this school of thought (well more of a borstal really) would suggest that Lenin, Connolly, Marx, Engels, Trotsky, Gramsci, Fanon, Guevara, Castro, Luxemburg, Zinoviev (all internationalists) were misinformed when they wrote on the positive aspects of nationalism and on the necessity for socialists to support national liberation struggles.

for a start, i suggest you read: "the communists and the irish revolution" edited by d.r. o'connor lysaght. a collection of writings by marx, engels & the bolsheviks on ireland up to the 1930's.

you might move on to lenins "on the national & colonial questions". (not everything written by leninists is bad.) i would now lean more towards libertareanism. for an anarchist perspective on anti imperialism i suggest you access:

http://www.struggle.ws/wsm

i hope the borstal boy king mob will one day free himself from the self imposed prison of his mindset.

Educate, Agitate, Organise!

by king Mob Thu Sep 05, 2002 16:55

In that thread you keep bringing up (speaking of obessions, like I said, surely you can find something better to make a war story out of?)

You were talking about a bunch of countries arguing where would they be if they hadn't thrown off the shackles of british imperalism. I argued that this revolution had simply switched masters and these people had swopped shackles. I said that theres little point in having that kind of revolution of ordinary people still suffer and are oppressed.

You took this to mean that I'm a west brit queen saluting. And spent several posts loudly telling me so.

So excuse fucking me if I'm not civil.

Self determination? Who decides Pat? Cause in the cases you listed off, it wasn't ordinary people deciding. The revolutions you've spoken about have simply lead to people being oppressed by a new set of masters. It hasn't workd. It never works. the system we have to work with invariably leads to and encourages exploitation and oppression of ordinary people.

Read animal farm. You'll like it is has farm animals in it.

Onto nationalism. That's the concept of pride in a nation and not an attack on collins or nationalists in the north. Okay? Clear on that?

I'm talking about pride in your country. Can you ever give me one example where nationalism hasn't lead to death and suffering? Can you actually tell me that this planet wouldn't be a better place if we stopped seeing ourselves as Irish or British, or French or american or crotian, or tutu's or hutu, or spainish, or white, jewish, black. Instead looked passed these artifical divides we've put up which stops us from seeing such other as human beings. Those divides have been used as a justification for attacks wars and suffering for millenia, and will continue to do so until we let go.

Which is why we need to quit venerating the past and look forward.

Course again, I'm preparing for your inability to grasp what I'm saying

by pat c Thu Sep 05, 2002 12:32

right on.

theres no point in just changing the colour of the flag & the post boxs. the system needs to change too.

connolly warned the ICA to hold on to their rifles, as those in the volunteers might not be fighting for social & economic liberation as well as national liberation.

however the rights of nations to self determination is paramount.(lenin, marx, engels, trotsky,gramsci, fanon understood this) we might not like what countries do with their independence, but it is up to the indigenous people to choose. not some self appointed king who knows what is best for the "corrupt" natives.

by ADSF Thu Sep 05, 2002 12:04

ANC --- SINN FEIN --- INDONESIA, 'EX' COLONIES: I feel the model of government and thinking needs to be overthrowed in conjunction with the imperialist powers. OTherwise you end up with a ruling class of Paddies or whoever that are just as corrupt as the last shower.

Like Connolly talked about a free Ireland is pointless unless it is a socialist Ireland in a socialist world. This view seems to have been whitewashed by current republicans who think that if we get the brits out, all will be well....

So Sinn Fein and the ANC - get your power but remember it's not your power - it's ours!! There's too many new green designer suits in Derry and Belfast for my liking... not to mention their pro corporate agenda! If yer kicking the Brits out, kick the bloody bosses, corporations and wealth mongers out too, or at least reign them in!!

FOR EVOLUTION AND REVOLUTION!

by pat c Thu Sep 05, 2002 10:59

as usual king mob relies on abuse rather than reasoned argument or logic.

just a couple of simple questions:

if a country is oppressed & occupied by an imperialist power, then does the subject country have the right to independence & to choose its own destiny?

some counties have thrown off the yoke of imperialism and have ended up with despots in control; does this mean they should not have the right to self determination?

on the collins issue; your irrational response to what was merely a n advertisement for a lecture & event at a museum suggests you suffer from a deep rooted pathology. i hope you get professional help for it.

by King Mob Thu Sep 05, 2002 00:05

Don't misquote me...........

And quit wearing the michael collins shroud. You make a bigger deal out of a flame war than the "wounds you got fighting the pigs in the north".

I hate to disagree with your twisting of your words but in essence you said.

Where would several countries be if they hadn't fought off the british colony oppressors. You then listed countries like India (who I might add engaged in peaceful civil unrest, not in your violent struggle) jamaica, pakistan, indonesia, and zaire.

My point was the major of these countries are still in incredibly deprived situations, and essentially instead of celebrating countries who swopped british oppresssors, for oppressors of the same skin tone, we should forget the feverant moronic nationalism that you so proudly beat your chest over, and instead look at the system which exists, which leads to one country throwing off one set of shackles for another, only this time it's okay cause the oppressors, are warlords, and multinationals and the WTO.

In short Pat, if you'd bothered to try to comphrend what I'm saying is, that nationalism has only ever led to bloodshed and pain, and instead of trying to defeat the oppressors, lets look at the system which creates the ability for oppressors to exist and bring it apart. Which would stop this situation from perpetuating and lead to progress.

But thats a complex idea for a dull witted fuckwit like yourself to digest.

one step at a time you tired little man, read what I say think about it and respond instead of twisting it to suit your ends.

KM

by Daithi Wed Sep 04, 2002 17:57 macsithd at tcd dot ie

I don't see what's wrong with a criticism of Myers, it certainly fits my definition of an article much more than a copied piece from another paper or from your party's internal bulletin or paper. The mainstream commercial media don't really allow much analysis of the media itself, I really think that there should be more of this on Indymedia.

And no, I didn't write the original article.

by anonymous (apparently) Wed Sep 04, 2002 16:30

I didn't nessecarily disagree with anyone's position on these topics. I just think that a few lines copied out of a newspaper article and posted here, in an effort at sarcasm, doesn't make for good reading.
People debating the point and posting some interesting reading and information does.

by pat c Wed Sep 04, 2002 13:03

i'm not surprised at anonymous's comments being here. king mob came out with a lot of similar stuff regarding former british colonies in a previous echange with me (yes, during a debate on the collins hurley; where else?)

rather than just damning myers here, i suggest we send letters of rebuttal etc to the irish times:

[email protected]

by d Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:53

http://www.irishresistancebooks.com/reviews/myers.htm

http://dispatches.phoblacht.net/archive/dispatch208.htm

by Deirdre Boylan Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:39

This guy is on a mission. Does anybody know exactly who he is, where he came from and what his background is?

He seems to be particularly hell bent of establishing a rather dangerous agenda in Ireland, and for a man so ugly and annoying, seems to have some serious access to RTE, the Irish Times and other outlets accessing the Irish Public.

by Ruairi Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:06

good point Daithi, afterall the brute pillage and plunder of the British in Ireland was allowed and accepted as we were 'savages incapable of ruling ourselves'. Are we still allowed talk about the so called famine and penal times under our new West Brit Euro status?

Africa's so called 'corruption' that allows huge and unncecessary arms sales and military investment is no accident. Just like it's no accident that 'the west' helped but Saddam Hussien, Noriega, Milosoveicz and Pinochet in power.

by daithi Wed Sep 04, 2002 11:59

what you say is true, but all governments are guilty of the same crimes whether they be industrialists or warlords, african or not; but following the unqualified comparison of Sweden and the US to India and China the article firmly disassociates cumilative western colonial interference from the ills of the underdeveloped areas of the planet. The wests (including Sweden and the US) affluence cannot be dicussed without the realisation that it is facilitated by the globes cheap labour forces and the geographical wherabouts of the fuel supplies (see US massive fuel consumption figures versus its fuel prodution figures). ... and my main problem is not the mechanics of the argument but the fact that Myers is given a free hand to write such rubbish while the media , and in particular the Times see themselves as the aformentioned fourth estate....whereas Mr Myers and his daily rants are dangerous misinformation.... we do need any reinforcing of the victorian ideas that consisited of African despots who cant rule themselves so 'we' better do it for them...

by Ruairi Wed Sep 04, 2002 11:55

Colonialism is alive and well in different shapes. The IMF controls the economies and lives of over a billion people - and it hasn't been elected - dictator or what!

Crippling debt, stragetically given during a 'US. exchange rate fluctuation in the early 80s, has already been repaid and now prevents education, health and infrastructure spending. The debt is odious and illegal. The donors knew most of it would end up in arms sales and Swiss bank accounts and the rest in contracts to Western multinationals. The same continues today - $1 in 'aid' = $3 in returns. Aid and development is a farce.

Total debt stands at $3.0 trillion, which is nothing when you think of the $1.5 trillion being squandered on international money markets each day in non-productive speculative transactions.

Myers loves the controversary. I doubt he honestly believes this muck. I find it hard to give him the time and energy to get upset, annoyed or to feel hard done by. Such people only motivate me more. He is no doubt a friend of people in very high places. Read - Bilderberger, successor generation, and all the other masonic type committees these murders by complicity have.

McDonalds for child health? What a joke! The raper of rainforests in Central America, the producer of toys in Chinese sweatshops, the promoter of untested GM foods and the lover and friend of the health industry that treats kids all over the world for obesity, depression and genearal ill health. That's not to mention there paedophilic marketing techniques and cultural mono-engineering the world over.

Reform of the companies? The new image? Can they be better? You cannot put bandaids on rotten cancers. You cannot just colour in cancer and hope it looks better. Cancer is cancer. It is rotten and destructive and needs to be cut out at core in order to stop it - before it's too late! These companies are complicit in terrorism through economics, human rights violations and the murder of our earth (our only home) through pollution, forest raping, oil spills and gas leaks that get them fined shameful amounts by their 'evil protectionist' governments - the same governments that subsidise them, that give them grants, tax breaks, free PR and free reign.

Better than cutting out the cancer is PREVENTING IT! Let's stop it now, not later! Boycott their sickening stores and products, refute their lies and allegations, expose them, oppose them and create local and viable alternatives. Create co-ops, support organic food, buy and shop local, rage against Nice and it's pro corporate strings.

Free market my arse. Free reign for unaccountable, dictatorial suited warriors that are not seeking to save humanity. They're not aiming for historical glory and world peace - for CEO read: PROFIT AT ALL COSTS! That's what corporations are - profit creating machines, machines to create huge amounts of money for a tiny elite whilst ripping off workers, their rights, national laws, human rights and the environment.

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!

by -- Wed Sep 04, 2002 11:39

by any chance refute the comments made?

For example, the fact that the African nation-states being commented on -are- in fact run by warlords probably is partially to blame for a lot of the hardships experienced by their citizens.

by daithi Wed Sep 04, 2002 11:21

sorry, tis Mr Myers.... who I haven't read since his infuriating pre-election visit to Tallaght... but someone cut this out of yesterdays paper for me.... the whole thing is scary, just dont have time to type it all...

by Ray Wed Sep 04, 2002 11:18

Kevin Myers?