Why do you hate the SWP please add to the list...

by Irony is dead Tue Jul 30, 2002 11:25

Brian thats a bit rich. What about these 'fronts'

CADV
YRE
SFE
ISR

Thats right. Nobody has heard of them. I suppose for the SP a front is only a front when
a) its successful
b) its large
c) it involves non-revolutionaries

by angry activist Sat Jul 27, 2002 20:44

angry activist seems overly interested in hate and the swp - maybe angry activist should avoid imc and swp which is easy after all one is a group of 100ish and the other is a website - lists like his remind me of schoolchildren - I'm gonna add it all up - anyway I am now gonna ruin his fun and steal his nickname - it is a good one

by Brian Cahill Sat Jul 27, 2002 18:57

I'm not overly fond of the SWP, but I'm not sure that this thread is particularly healthy. Yes they set up fronts, yes they try to hijack campaigns and so on, but for the most part they are also sincere and well meaning activists. They don't deserve to be treated like Bond villains.

Fundamentally the SWP doesn't matter very much. People shouldn't get so worked up about them. Criticise them when they have done something worth criticising but this kind of generalised vitriol wastes everybodies time.

Riot Girl's post above is based on an old piece in the British "Class War" paper. I don't think that it is accurate, as Julie Waterson was still operating as Anti-Nazi League head long after the article was published (the ANL is the name the SWP use when they are being liberal anti-racists).

She gave a particularly gruesome speech at an ANL meeting I was at in Glasgow last year, claiming that Tories were welcome in the ANL as long as they are anti-fascist. The meeting followed the Scottish SWP disastrous attempt to intervene in Sighthill after a racist murder - something they really do deserve to be criticised about, but I will leave that for another, more appropriate, time.

by Des Sat Jul 27, 2002 18:53

To bored, my comment re "final solution" was a JOKE! the SWP get up the nose of a lot of people (including yours truly) and it can help to see the funny side of things at times.

by Riot girl Sat Jul 27, 2002 11:07

The SWP are now having some seriously bad financial problems. It has recently come to our attention that one of their full time UK staff, Julie Waterson, has recently been made redundant with, apparently, much falling out among the comrades. What's more their need of cash means they are now indirectly supporting the hunt scum. In a recent copy of Private Eye the Countryside Alliance paid for a full page advert, money that Eye used to pay their printers who are, yes you've guessed it, the SWP! (East End offset who print Private Eye and Searchlight amongst others is owned by the SWP).

by C. Sat Jul 27, 2002 00:21

OK - IMC had a meeting a couple of weeks ago. A couple of editorial changes were discussed / adopted.
1. We tried to split up the editorial by day cos it's a big job. Today is my day.

2. I proposed that when a thread was outside the newswire guidelines and the point of the newswire by not being news / peer review of the news - we move the thread rather than kill it.

43 posts means people are reading this and writing about it. I don't want to stamp on this conversation but I also don't think this site caters to it. Apart from anything the interface is not suited to a forum, once the original article is more than a couple of days old.

So - I asked an irish board whether we could move threads there (boards.ie). I also don't mind cutting and pasting to any other suggested locations (if there's a consensus on one) and then shutting it off here.

Be aware - any discussion elsewhere will be under their moderation and with their rules.

Registering may be necessary to post - blah blah - other disclaimers you can figure out.

Comments? Just abuse / silence and I'll delete the thread.

by bored Fri Jul 26, 2002 20:04

nearly all of the posts are covered by at least one of these. so shouldn't it be removed?

A selection from the Editorial Guidelines

In general, posts may be removed for any of the following reasons:

being comments, not news - comments belong with the story being discussed - to have your say in response to a story on the site, use the "add your comments" link at the bottom of each story.
(ie the whole thread)
...
...discriminatory or abusive posts

(The calling for final solutions and much of the name calling fits this one it seems to me to fit the latter part of that)

by Rose Fri Jul 26, 2002 18:11

"Unfortunately RTS here write off the trade union movement as a lot of old, boring workers who should drop out and squat, man"

Luckily SWP/GR here are now recruiting right wing trade union's leaders and their daughters.
Whereas in the UK SWP/GR are led by the son of the former governor of Jamaica, alias Paul Foot! (I haven't made this up, ask Kieran Allen).

by BLISSET Fri Jul 26, 2002 18:06 CONNOLY STATION

thanks btw to rts supporter for thoughtful reply.
asfor furer shouldn't that read imc anti troll pro editorial guidelines

last ever post as blisset

signing off

by pat c Fri Jul 26, 2002 17:55

joe c sang beautifully at the mono gig. his voice filled the room as people left.

seriously tho, there were stalls from a few organisations at the gig. joe even asked afa to have a stall at the next gig.

hopefully his offer won't be countermanded by the swp politburo.

by IST Supporter Fri Jul 26, 2002 17:27

that last one definitely a troll!!!

by Des Fri Jul 26, 2002 17:10

Might I now propose a final solution to the SWP problem, something on the lines of the "night of the long knives", btw blisset, who appointed you indymedia fuhrer?

by Angry Activist Fri Jul 26, 2002 17:03

1. Opportunism
2. ultra leftism
3. Middle class membership
4. Ignorant full timers.
5. Cover Groups
6. Inability to work with anyone else
7. The Anti Nazi League
8. State Capitalism
9. Sectarian left republican approach to the North
10. 1 state in Palestine/Israel
11. Hijacking other movements ie RTS
12. Grace Lally
13. giving socialism a bad name
14. Rotating membership that turn good people off revolutionary politics
15. Lack of internal democracy
16. tail ending
17. build the movement strategy
18. there paper is crap
19. the way they increased the price of their rag from 50p to €1 in a couple of weeks
20. the green party
21. their 'premises'
22. Richard Boyd Barrett
23. Their emphasis on students
24. their hatred of workers
25. Allways going on about Genoa
26. Belief that now is the 30s in slow motion!
27. the way Richard Boyd Barret is always in my local paper
28. The fact that Richard Boyd Barret put 'journalist' down on the ballot paper for his profession

by Gurrier - RTS Fri Jul 26, 2002 16:48

To Blisset and winston

Firstly, it is important to remember that RTS is not a formal organisation. It is a group of activists who come together to organise mass disobedient parties as a way of promoting direct-action and questioning who has a right to decide how public space is used and so on.

As a group which exists for a specific purpose, it is unrealistic to expect it to be able to launch campaigns about specific issues. However the people who put work into RTS are also active in a number of other areas. RTS people are members of at least 3 different political gropus. Many RTS people campaigned for a no vote in the recent abortion referendum as part of the ANV. RTS people have taken part in dozens of pro-immigrant / anti-racist / anti-fascist protests and actions. RTS people have taken part in many protests about various environmental issues. RTS people have put a lot of work into indymedia and other alternative news sources. RTS people have been present on probably every single traveller protest against the trespass bill. Several RTS people are active in their local areas against the bin charges. RTS people have done what they could to help those arrested and/or beaten on May 6th, including organising a legal defence co-ordination public meeting with legal advisers, organising fundraising benefits for the defendants and showing up at the courthouse to show solidarity with the defendants. As far as I know nobody in RTS Ireland writes off the trade-unions as boring old workers.

To deal specifically with Blisset's query about the RTS campaign against the public order act, announced on the late late show. Firstly this was not actually a decision taken by RTS and in the aftermath of the May 6th police riot, we were rather overwhelmed by the unexpected media exposure and so had not worked out a strategy for clearing press releases and statements. As a result many people spoke to the media on behalf of RTS, the Late Late spokesperson did have a mandate from RTS, unlike others, although I'm not sure whether RTS ever formally took a decision to mount a specific campaign against the public order act. Secondly, RTS people have been busy trying to coordinate and assist the legal defence of those charged on May 6th, a very practical step against the Public Order act. As far as I know only RTS people / supporters have showed up at the court to support the defendants. Thirdly, I am sure that if there was any sort of broad campaign against the Public Order Act, RTS would get involved, either as individuals or as a group. However the only campaign against the act is run by an SWP front. It is notable that, as part of their campaign, no GR people have shown up at any of the court hearings for May 6th. It is also notable that despite us making suggestions to GR members of holding joint actions and co-ordinating protests and explicitly inviting them to our legal defence meeting, GR have ploughed ahead and organised their own events, without trying to involve RTS. Therefore, it seems there is little chance of a real campaign emerging on the issue given the existence of the GR one, and given the proven ability of the SWP to out-placard and out-poster all others.

The form and structure of RTS does not allow it to instigate political campaigns, there are other forms of organisation better suited to that. We do however try to provide a space for all grassroots activists to present their groups and campaigns at our parties. Stalls and other forms of information by campaigning groups are actively welcomed by RTS. Much of the discussion within RTS recently has been about how we can combine our actions with those of others campaigning on similar issues.

In my opinion, one of the most important functions of RTS parties is that they give young people a chance to take part in a mass illegal action in a way which is not as culturally intimidating as a picket or a political meeting. Although some may claim that attending a party is hardly a political act, we live in a world where the lack of access to entertainment and leisure facilities due to economic reasons is a serious problem for many people, and reclaiming a street to hold a free party where music, food and entertainment are provided in a display of mutual aid is a direct attack on the logic of the entertainment industry and capitalism itself. Many of the people who turned up on May 6th had not previously attended a political event and went away with their first experience of the power of ordinary people to oppose the forces of the state - despite the police violence, the party was able to last several hours in good spirits. Although the experience of mass direct action can lead to some level of politicisation, I think that there are few in RTS who would think that this is enough on its own. I would hope to see the people who come along to RTS parties getting involved in the organisation of RTS in the future, and also getting involved in other campaigns and organisations. It is up to these campaigns and organisations to try to make their ideas relevant and useful to the young people who turn out for RTS parties and defy the state and the logic of capitalism.

We are planning on having another RTS event on September 22nd. Outreach will be an important part of our preparations, we will approach various groups, inviting them to take part and to suggest to us how we can aid them. We are holding a public planning meeting next Wednsday night at 8pm in the Teachers Club, Parnell Square to which all are welcome. Why not come to this meeting and bring your suggestions as to how RTS can practically help immigrants / travellers / the campaign against the public order act? RTS is currently organised by a fairly small number of activists, who knows, if more interested people like yourself get involved through this type of meeting, maybe we could start expanding our targets and become involved in campaigns as RTS. Or maybe you are one of those people who do nothing except criticise those who do something for not doing everything?

by Se Fri Jul 26, 2002 16:47

I hate the Swappies because of their crap theory. The SWP seriously say that the USSR was a capitalist country!!!

If USSR was capitalist why did they 'welcome' it's downfall? (What We Stand For Column of Socialist Worker).

by Sarcastic Muddafukka - Anti Rose Action Fri Jul 26, 2002 16:06

she don't smell like one

by Winston Smith - MINITRUE Fri Jul 26, 2002 16:05

Unfortunately RTS here write off the trade union movement as a lot of old, boring workers who should drop out and squat, man

by Andrew Fri Jul 26, 2002 15:37

Hmm blisset

not sure why you have got such a bee in your bonnet over RTS and the public order act, especially as the nature of an RTS event is in itself a challenge to the act (being in breach of it). So in essence they have already put their money where their mouth is in that regard.

I see RTS have called a public organising meeting for next Weds (8pm Teachers Club, Parnell sq). I'd suggest that this implies a continued intention to defy the act. Given the nature of such protests (or parties for those who insist) I'm sure we won't get more details until closer to the event itself (advertised for Sat 22 Aug).

by Rose Fri Jul 26, 2002 15:28

Keep it up lads!

by blisset Fri Jul 26, 2002 15:23

except to point to a blatant disregard on behalf of a troll of the publish guidelines - I am going to get this thread removed - hours later - not having much luck am I?

by blisset Fri Jul 26, 2002 15:13

Trying at same time to get a simple awnser to a simple question

xxxxxxxxxxxx

Blisset

by Rose Fri Jul 26, 2002 15:08

Blisset this is a free website, if you don't like freedom of speech you can read Socialist Worker.

by blisset Fri Jul 26, 2002 14:19

I know this swp/rts/anarchists debate backwards as must anyone who is using IMC IRL now- It is boring the shit out of me especially when started up by a fucking troll who is commenting asking questions rather than any semblance of news - I am not demanding that anything be done on my behalf - I am trying to get a simple awnser to a simple qiuestion from RTS or any of it's supporters - why say in the most public forum possible in erron - late late Show -you are going to oppose the public order act as it is fascist legislation and then do nothing when it is used as such?

This I think is an interesting question (more interesting in my humble opinion than why do you hate the swp) and is meant in my humble way to point up the contradictions between the social analysis that is integral to the idea of RTS and the actions of RTS here in Erron. Remember rts and miners in england andrew? I'm sure you do but I'm not so sure the majority anarchichi of rts/erron do.

I have been interested in the reactions to my repeated simple question - not a single straight awnser - lots of - why don't you do it yr'self - go away - go back to real world etc - hey am I not allowed to be in the open non-herarchical discussion and political process that rts is - Maybe I should start posting as RTS Supporter - ;-)

by Andrew Fri Jul 26, 2002 14:05

Hey blisset

Looking at the language used in some of the posts, eg 'petit bourgeois' is obvious that these posters at least are some other variety of leninist rather then being 'anarchist/rts' heads.

In general I agree with Mags on this, a more fundamental question is why people allow the SWP to hijack stuff. With RTS for instance it was only possible for Joe C at al to pretend to have organised the RTS because the real organisers were initally unwilling to talk to the media, even on an anonymous basis. If you leave a vacum you can be sure someone else will fill it. I'm confident lessons have been learnt from that experience but the reality remains that the SWP thrives off the vaccums that others create.

Blissets own demands (presuming its the same Blissit, for those not in on the joke it's a name used by many people across the globe for criticism) elsewhere are a good illustration of the problem ie 'why don't SWP/SP/RTS etc organise something for X' where most recently x = travellers. If you spot something that needs doing then get some people and/or organisations together and do it - don't demand others organise something for you!

Finally allow me to recomment a link that looks at the reasons why the SWP and similar groups operate in the way they do, its at
http://anarchism.ws/left.html

by cooley boy - Culchies against Capitalism Fri Jul 26, 2002 14:05

shock horror

by mal Fri Jul 26, 2002 13:18

BLISSET RULES
but this is not comment IT'S PANTO. oh look their behind you!!!(scream)

by blisset Fri Jul 26, 2002 13:10

I am going to get this fucking thread deleted -

editorial policy - will delete posts - being comments, not news - comments belong with the story being discussed - to have your say in response to a story on the site, use the "add your comments" link at the bottom of each story.
This is nothing but comment

- if y'all have some bones to pick with swp them their meetings are publically advertised - you can also find them outside the GPO early on a saturday afternoon -this is a news site not a boxing ring for the rts/anarchists and their 'evil' enemy.

by Mags Fri Jul 26, 2002 12:10

To some of the posters above ... why do you allow them to take over your campaigns?

by button Fri Jul 26, 2002 10:56

because aine ni chonnal is a member

they are ugly

by Rose Fri Jul 26, 2002 09:34

i hate the swp because they are better looking than most

by IST Supporter Fri Jul 26, 2002 09:02

has been copied word for word from another discussion on this newswire involving the SWP somewhere along the line, gas isn't it ;)

by anticapitalist Fri Jul 26, 2002 08:10

Everything the SWP/GR is about is hostile to our movements for social change: vanguardism, parasitism, hierarchical organization, centralization, authoritarianism, and so on. They have a proven track record of disrupting the activism of other groups. It's very clear that they wish to lead whatever movement they can get their claws into. Anti-capitalists should have nothing to do with the SWP/GR. The sooner we start treating them like the red fascists they really are, the sooner we can have some real unity through diversity in our movements.

Their organization doesn't permit internal debate among rank and file members. The SWP is an undemocratic organization that conspires in social change movements to control internal speech so that it adheres to the party line of a few self-appointed SWP leaders.

Most attacks on the SWP are based on solid criticisms of the organization's politics and practice. For example, the SWP is currently involved in an ongoing attempt to build a united front for the Nioce referendum. This is an attempt to create a more centralized, hierarchical situation that is conducive to the SWP's "interventions" in activist organizations and coalitions.

by Malcolm Little Fri Jul 26, 2002 00:43

Firstly, your indignation is predictable, it often happens when one is confronted with the truth. The activities of Malcolm Little are manifold, for the last five years I have worked with a youth club in a well known and run down area of north Dublin. I also work on a drug rehab program for heroine addicts and an adult literacy program. As well as that I was involved in radical politics from the age of sixteen up to about six months ago (now 21), when I had to confront some harsh realities, some of which were related in the above comment.Not that any of this really matters, are my comments only valid if I can say I was in Genoa 2001, or at the so-called "battle" of Dame ST.? Well that’s a bit of it, for the sake of by beloved anonymity I won't say much more as there are many on the wire who would have been associated with me in the past, but whom I have little time for now. The real alternative in the future is gong to be built in the communities. "Our demands most modest are, we only want the earth".

by King Mob Fri Jul 26, 2002 00:22

What don't you illumiate us and let us know what exactly you're doing, if you can take a busy moment from your hectic schedule of laughing and criticizing everyone fucking else

by Malcolm Little - Workers and lumpen proletariat of the world Fri Jul 26, 2002 00:16

To be honest I quite like them as they are a constant reminder to me, given that they are the most pronounced manifestation, of the Irish “lefts” narcissism, petty middle-class careerism and bickering and ultimate ineffectualness. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, the vast majority of the so-called left will, in time, enter the establishment in one form or another, be it academia, journalism, constitutional politics or some of them will even come full circle and end up working for corporations. The future belongs to the workers, trade-unionists, community activists and the neglected communities of the country. The sort of people who some on the left would cross the street to avoid if they saw them on a dark night, the political party that will take power for the workers of this country does not exist yet, it will be born of necessity and will facilitate a real revolution. The theories of Marx/Lenin/Connolly and Gramsci belong to these people, so argue and bicker all you like it makes no real difference. But, it is quite funny to read.

by bored of this shite Fri Jul 26, 2002 00:10

Its becoming clear! Those who couldn't be arsed, criticise!

SWP are this, that and the other. Thats just great. Truely fascinating. I really need to read threads of this. Who is it directed at. SWPers? Potential SWPers? Or does it fulfil your middle class anarchist arrogance that you have done your bit to bash a bunch of Trots? !

If you don't like the SWP get off your holes and do something to oppose or out do them. But its so much more fun to be constant critics.

And the best bit off all, is when the PC of the SWP don't call a press conference to exclaim publicly their outrage and publish a pamplet refuting your inightful political arguments they are running scared, or unwilling to engage in debate. Its a win win for the whinging wankers.

There is fuck loads of stuff to get angry about. A war in Afghanistan and our role in it in Ireland. The Israelis are butchering the Palestinains. The Travelling way of life is being criminalised. The public sector is talking a hiding. And this is the best we get from the sections of the Irish left. Does not show that you have much confidence in your alternatives to Marxist Leninism or the IST. Maybe we deserve Fianna Fail.

Just keep on with the mud slinging. Its just what is needed to push this news wire from frustrating to irrelevent. And bet you someone accuses me of being an SWP troll

Pathetic.

by - Thu Jul 25, 2002 22:19

whose this Mark bloke then?

by Dr. Dick Thu Jul 25, 2002 21:24

Think about it:

- they don't tolerate deviation from the recieved dogma
- their main practical priority is recruitment (evangalisation)
- they over-simplify the world into good (the'workers') and evil (the exploitive bosses)
- they have their own lingo which has meanings specific to themselves
- they dream of an armageddon which will be followed by a paradise (a workers paradise, of course)
-They believe that it is the SWP - especially the leadership the SWP, who know the real truth (recieved truth passed on from Mark and Lenin).
- since they 'know' they have the absolute truth there is no problem in hijacking the activities of others or similar behaviour because those others are obviously deluded.

It's almost like Christianity with the Christ taken out!

Whatever they are, they're certainly not effective. Indeed, by forcing their orthodoxy so forcefully on others they do a lot of damage to the movement.

by Des Thu Jul 25, 2002 19:31

Because they are an unprincipled shower who cannot co-operate with other organisations or individuals on a principles basis but instead seek to use various campaigns as a means of recruiting and because they are a bunch of control freaks.

by SWP Satanic Society - SWP Satanic Society Thu Jul 25, 2002 19:24

Since the SWP recently took the decision at its yearly general conference to affliliate to Beyelzebub and the Legions of Darkness, I have felt less able to fully argue the party line. Indeed, I considered joining a much less evil-inclined party, such as Arthur Scargill's. The SWP has failed to understand that the establishing of such movements as Rock for Damnation will alienate many sincere Labour voters, not all of whom will comprehend the New Hell policy.

by SWP Toddlers Group - SWP Toddlers Group Thu Jul 25, 2002 19:12

We are the newly-formed SWP Toddlers Group; the current threat of an imminent Tory onslaught against Labour means that it has been necessary to organize among the under- 5s. This has been made easier in as much as there has been no need to amend the theoretical level of the party as a whole. Under 5s are expected to sell papers, engage in cogent debate, partcipate in strikes & demonstrations, and adhere to the party line at all times.
The SWPTG theme song is as follows :

We love the SWP
The SWP loves me
The SWP will set me free
The paper costs just 50p

by thirsty Thu Jul 25, 2002 18:00

Because they use tragic events as recruitment drives. War in iraq? Let's organise a rally. A bunch of reds waving placards isn't going to help the iraqis, but it'll sure sell some papers.

Because for every 'subversive' event that goes on in Ireland, they have to claim the credit, phoning up radio and tv trying to plug their party.

Because they are aggressively hierarchical, the little people who sign up have next to no say, and have to obey their Socialist Worker Leaders, but they promise that once the revolution comes, that'll change.

Because they try to intice the Temple-Bar kids to their stalls with Rage Against the Machine and Manic Street Preachers (all accepting huge cheques from corporate record deals), whilst wearing Che Guavara T-Shirts. Even though they say he fought for a capitalist cuba.

Because they pretend that themselves and Globalise Resistance are two completely seperate entities, rather than a symbiotic relationship.

And finally because the bastards used a photo of me unwittingly sitting in front of a SWP banner at the MayDay protest at the stock exchange last yearin their magazine with the headline "More young people are getting into socialism!"

by db - none Thu Jul 25, 2002 17:29

if there was no swp wouldnt we just get at another group, like the SP/SY for doing something? Its a waste of time to attack a small organisation, its like watching paint dry, but worse, you enjoy it.

by otter name Thu Jul 25, 2002 16:57

but if they didnt exist people wouldnt need to complain about their activities being hijacked, misused and abused by the swerps. yes, the world would be a good place if the swerps didnt exist. but... considering they do, and they tend to do more damage than good to other activists in ireland then i have no problem with a little bit of swimmer flogging!

by IST Supporter Thu Jul 25, 2002 16:55

..this is a troll if there ever was one ;)

by hmm Thu Jul 25, 2002 16:45

Because if they didn't exist then the newswire wouldn't be clogged by fools spamming it with this sort of nonsense.

by otter - nadah! Thu Jul 25, 2002 16:37

mmm... too many reasons... lets see... they certainly shouldnt be political, why? they're the greatest recruitment agency around, all members of the swp should be called temps, they only last 6 months just like a temp in some corpo until they either drop out because the swp try and braiwash them or they're kicked out for not thinking along the party line!

by Angry Activist Thu Jul 25, 2002 16:29

Their petty bourgeois sectarianism and ultra leftist/oppourunist zig zags