The Greens go into Government

by Sharon . - Individual . Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:45

Hi Rational Ecologist !

" Sharon. You still persist in offering no proposals but continue to personalise this debate which is very regrettable."
For the second time - see my proposal re the Green Party in Leinster House , as stated on this very thread, here : Céad Iúil 04, 2007 18:50 , and here : Máirt Iúil 03, 2007 16:36 . I fully understand that that is not what you wanted to hear , but please don't accuse me of not having made a response at all .

"I have no problem with my conscience as I have and continue to be very active in many campaigns, both locally and nationally."
I presume , then , that you are active in street politics (pickets , marches , protests etc) against some political decisions which the present Leinster House administration have made , despite the fact that you are calling , on this thread , for posters to support that same administration ?
Yet , in doing so , you 'have no problem' with your conscience ?

"Your cheap quip as regards my supporting the US invasion of Iraq is unworthy of comment. I have been working on the ground on these issues for many years."
You support , and call for support for , a party which has 'worked on the ground on these issues * for many years' yet which , practically overnight , changed its stance on same . Your attempt to dismiss my highlighting of same as a "cheap quip" is a desperate last throw of the dice by you . Start preparing that script for your grandchildren that we spoke of previously .
(* Shannon, Co-location, Tara, Rossport and their about-face on the 'Metropolitan Area Network' [MAN's] FO roll-out .)

"You live in a very black and white world."
As did you (and the Green Party) until June 14 last .

"I am still waiting for some practical policies from you, not because I need suggestions but rather to find out if you have anything constructive to offer.
I am still waiting!!!! "
What you are "still waiting for" is some re-assurance that you are 'doing the right thing' in the long-run . As stated , you won't get that from me .

"No more personalised comments please. Try to be positive.
Thank you."
What is there to be 'positive' about in relation to the actions of the Green Party at the State cabinet table ? Fool yourself by all means , if you can live with it , but some of us - as stated above by another poster - are not afraid 'to call a spade a spade' .

Thank You .

Sharon.

by Rational Ecologist Tue Jul 17, 2007 09:58

Sharon. You still persist in offering no proposals but continue to personalise this debate which is very regrettable. I have no problem with my conscience as I have and continue to be very active in many campaigns, both locally and nationally. Your cheap quip as regards my supporting the US invasion of Iraq is unworthy of comment. I have been working on the ground on these issues for many years.
You live in a very black and white world.
I am still waiting for some practical policies from you, not because I need suggestions but rather to find out if you have anything constructive to offer.
I am still waiting!!!!
No more personalised comments please. Try to be positive.
Thank you.

by Sharon . - Individual . Mon Jul 16, 2007 20:29

Hi Rational Ecologist !

" Hi Sharon. I am still waiting for some practical proposals from you. "
No , I really don't think you are : I believe you are waiting (hoping?) for assurances from others that , amongst other things , your suggestion that the present leadership of the Green Party should be supported in their endeavours despite the fact that you yourself would , if you could , vote against them in any leadership contest (as you have stated on this thread) is a 'practical proposal' !
It is no such thing , 'Rational Ecologist' - what it is , in my opinion , is but the tip of a moral iceberg which you have , politically , run yourself aground on . You are now floundering , looking for someone to throw you a lifebelt . I can assure you it won't be launched from this shore !

"So far your arguements are not winning me over to your point of view. "
But that was never my intention !
My point from the beginning was to highlight to you , and others , what I consider to be the hypocritical political stance of those you support in relation to their actions before the May 2007 election and their conduct after same . And I believe that myself , and other posters on this thread , have done that ; you are doing battle with your conscience right now which is why you are saying 'You have not yet fully convinced me that I may be wrong...' . Stand back , look at the facts and listen to your conscience .

" I assure you I sleep soundly in my bed without a comfort blanket. Thanks for your concern. "
My 'concern' is in feeling that although you are aware you have been politically conned you continue to refuse to acknowledge that fact to yourself and will carry-on trying to garner political support for those you yourself are not one-hundred-per-cent comfortable with . You are fast approaching a stage where a mere comfort blanket will be of no use to you .

" I look forward to some positive comments."
I , for one , find nothing 'positive' in any political organisation - or in those that continue to support same - which sells itself so cheap in return for 'political prestige' .
As I implied previously - your conscience and your heart seem to be pulling you in different political directions . I would ask that you refrain from using me as the reason why you will go in one direction rather than the other . It's your decision .

Sharon.

by Rational Ecologist Mon Jul 16, 2007 14:21

Hi Sharon. I am still waiting for some practical proposals from you. So far your arguements are not winning me over to your point of view. I assure you I sleep soundly in my bed without a comfort blanket. Thanks for your concern.
I look forward to some positive comments.

by davekey Sat Jul 07, 2007 23:14

- “I think it's more a question of our elected representatives and public servants facing the fact that genuine democracy means "government of the people, by the people, for the people".

- The People won't stand for that kind of ridiculous nonsense anymore, or at least not for too much longer.”

This is a fair statement however I think it’s only true when most people are fully awake to what this means, otherwise it‘s just business as usual. Perhaps I’m a pessimist. If our last ‘elections’ don’t wake people up to what passes for democracy here I’m not sure what will. Our ‘government’ is now nothing but a front for the globalists and if we are fully sucked into the superstate we can kiss what’s left of our self-determination goodbye. We’ll all be micro-managed by centralised dictatorship.

by W. Finnerty. Sat Jul 07, 2007 22:34

I think it's more a question of our elected representatives and public servants facing the fact that genuine democracy means "government of the people, by the people, for the people".

Thanks largely to the internet perhaps, the days when "public servants" (so called) can successfully dupe the majority of voters into believing that "elected dictatorship equals democracy", may be drawing to a close.

The People won't stand for that kind of ridiculous nonsense anymore, or at least not for too much longer.

And why should they?

by davekey Sat Jul 07, 2007 22:03

I think one of these days we are all going to have to face the fact that we have a government which is hostile to the will of the people. No matter who we vote for we get the same results, we're just moving the deckchairs on the Titanic. Most people don't want to face this fact so we continue trying to tinker with the system. Hoping in the next 'election' things will miraciously change.

by W. Finnerty. Sat Jul 07, 2007 21:52

The Green Party has actually made a start on trying to have the Aarhus Convention Agreement ratified, which is possibly more than can be said for any of the other parties?

However, and for whatever reason, Deputy Trevor Sargent TD does not appear to have followed through with his efforts.

I wonder why? Perhaps he might care to tell us - at this very interesting point in time for both himself and the Green Party he lead until very recently?

Had Trevor Sargent followed through, it might have done wonders for the "common good" of the population of the Republic of Ireland, and for genuine democracy.

Instead, we now have a bulging-at-the-seams and growing cesspit of Bilderberg and Trilateral generated corruption, masterminded by thoroughbred despots who have nothing but hate-filled contempt for democracy, and who appear to have the whole Oireachtas in their pocket, not to mention the judiciary as well of course. Rumour has it the Global Elite now jokingly refer in private to these two groups of people as the "best that money can buy" in the whole of Europe.

Dáil Éireann Debate - Volume 596 - 02 February, 2005:

Mr. Sargent: "I asked a question of the Tánaiste yesterday but did not get an answer. The Taoiseach might respond today. Ireland has signed the Aarhus Convention but has not yet ratified it. Having regard to Article 29.5.1º of the Constitution, when will the convention be ratified and laid before the Dáil? "

The Taoiseach: "I will have to check on the matter of the Aarhus Convention. Will the Deputy repeat the name?"

The full text of this Dáil Éireann debate can be seen at: http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0596/D.0596.200502020007.html

Now, our elected representatives and public servants have to explain to us all why they continue to violate Article 29.5.1º of our "Bunreacht na hEireann" (The Basic Law of Ireland) regarding the Aarhus Convention Agreement they signed in 1998: which is obviously unlawful, and which has resulted in the production of a whole crop of unconstitutional legislation (i.e. illegal law) since 1998.

This issue is not going to go away - at least not as far as I'm concerned, and regardless of the fact that County Galway law-firm Hogan & Co. continue to completely ignore the latter I sent to them through the registered post on April 3rd 2007 - which can be viewed at http://www.europeancourtofhumanrightswilliamfinnerty.co...r.htm .

by Sharon . - Individual Sat Jul 07, 2007 18:12

Hi Rational Ecologist !

"First of all look at the numbers. Numerically FF do not need GP and secondly what are the options?"
The 'numbers' therefore indicate that the pledges offered to the electorate by the Green Party before the May 24th last election will not be implemented as Fianna Fail has no "need" to do so in order to keep this administration alive . The Green Party have neutralised themselves and have been seen to do so in a very public manner , with nothing environmentally promising in return .

"FG led administration will do exactly the same thing."
But without the support of the Green Party , who would then be in a position to join in with those opposing same .

" I am still looking for practical solutions from you. Still nothing forthcoming."
No , you're not . You are looking for a verbal 'comfort blanket' to smother your ailing conscience with .

" What is your attitude to the implementation of the Aarhus Convention?"
It looks very useful on paper . Can the Green Party now ensure that it is fully implemented ? Has Mr. Gormley , Mr. Ryan or M/S McKenna stated that they intend to enforce same ? If they say it , can they be believed ?

"I am not a member of GP. As I said earlier, I would consider joining in order to elect Patricia McKenna."
That doesn't say a lot for your own belief in this present leadership whom you call on us to support , does it ?

"As for implicating me in Bush's war. Give me a break."
You have inplicated yourself by your support for (and probable membership of) a political party which forms part of an administration which assists in that 'oil war' endeavour .
You now need two 'comfort blankets' .

Sharon.

by Rational Ecologist Sat Jul 07, 2007 17:39

First of all look at the numbers. Numerically FF do not need GP and secondly what are the options? FG led administration will do exactly the same thing. I am still looking for practical solutions from you. Still nothing forthcoming. What is your attitude to the implementation of the Aarhus Convention?
I am not a member of GP. As I said earlier, I would consider joining in order to elect Patricia McKenna.
As for implicating me in Bush's war. Give me a break.

by Sharon . - Individual . Fri Jul 06, 2007 18:00

......will share the blame.

Hi Rational Ecologist !

"Sharon, you still refuse to provide practical policies. It's all to easy to criticise and tear down( I undersatnd your anger at GP), however, real maturity is to provide solutions. I still await a meaningful response. "

By "meaningful" it is now obvious that you mean a response which suits you ie which you can 'go along with' , as I and others have already supplied what we consider practical solutions - start with threatening to collapse this blind , greedy and self-serving administration unless the leadership of same listen to the concerns of those that elected part of it (the 'green' part) : put a time-line on it and grab as much publicity as possible between now and then . And then , if necessary , follow through and withdraw from the administration . As things stand , 'Rational Ecologist' , the Green Party are being exposed as either useless or 'u-turners' in relation to their pre-election pledges and , as such , have nothing to lose morally or politically (...except for the so-called 'prestige' , perhaps ?) in refusing to continue acting as a safety crutch for the political gangsters they are now propping up .
Otherwise , you may start preparing a script now for your grandchildren to inform them of the part you played in Bush's oil war , of how you supported those that criminally ruined the Mayo landscape in 'gifting' a resource to the supplier of the biggest brown envelope and of how you backed-off from attempting to stop the destruction of the Tara heritage site because your then party leaders no longer apparently approved of such protest action .

Is that "meaningful" enough for you ?

Sharon.

by G Fri Jul 06, 2007 13:26

“Non-cooperation with evil is a sacred duty”
-Mahatma Gandhi (but was he a Green?)

by Fintan Lane - Irish Socialist Network and AWI Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:29

That sounds great, but it's not quite an accurate analogy.

The Green Party are not a pressure group or some sort of official opposition within the government; rather, they are part of the government, which makes them equally responsible for everything this government does. That's hardly a pleasant outlook when one looks at the dominant element within this arrangement - the right-wing Fianna Fail party and its extreme neo-liberal sidekicks in the rump PDs. This is a markedly right-wing government.

Collective cabinet responsibility means that the Green ministers are equally responsible for EVERYTHING this government does. A participating party cannot opt out of responsibility on decisions they find troubling.

As an anti-war activist, what strikes me most is the reality that the erstwhile anti-war Greens are now part of a government that is practically assisting the Bush killing machine at Shannon. We said it about Fianna Fail and the PDs in the past, and it now stands true for the Green Party: they have blood on their hands!

What is happening at Shannon should be enough to bring down any government, but the Greens signed on in the full knowledge that the facilitation of the US war machine would continue. In my opinion, this is an issue about which no genuine anti-war activist could possibly compromise. Gormley and Ryan clearly think otherwise.

by MichaelY - iawm Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:24

Rosa,

Your disrespectful comments re: many many people who fight and struggle in communities and workplaces, in Shannon and in Rossport and in the streets of our cities reflects to a T the arrogance of the T-Shock who advised the other day "the moaners and the rest" to go and top ourselves off. That's the 'man of the people' that your Green votes have put in place and will support until he messes with you - by then it'd be too late.
You can get back, of course, to your senses and amplify for our instruction the kind of areas, the type of policies, that your ministers will influence, or put in place, "from the inside".....for it's a bit hazy so far. To say the least.
Forget about the support for terror re:Shannon, forget the M3 and Tara, forget Shell.....what's left? Prey tell Green realist and pragmatist!!

by Rational Ecologist Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:19

Rosa's comments are an unhelpful aside. People are entitled to express their concerns and indeed I share some of them. What we need is an open and mature discussion. I would like to see some more concrete suggestions form Sharon but I appreciate her opinions so I wan't to distance myself from Rosa's words. Your( Rosa ) patronising attitude to teenagers is ageist and ignorant.

by Karl Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:19

Having already seen that the Greens have zero influence whatsoever on any issue of any importance, whether Shannon, co-location, Tara, Rossport or anything else, it's a bit much for Green supporters to be still hawking this shrill "discontented teenagers" line around Indymedia. The Greens have shown themselves to be staggeringly immature, lacking the most basic understanding of how politics works, they were taken for fools by FF and rightly so.

by rosa Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:13

The Greens are now in a position to directly influence (in a manner proportionate to their mandate from the people) legislation and governance.

Had they remained outside, they would have no influence whatsoever on either. They would then be in exactly in the same position as the SP, SWP, and the other members of the Discontented Teenagers Faction who rail forever from their bedsits waiting for the revolution to happen. It is like the castaway on a desert island boasting of his chastity.

by Green Fingers Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:59

No, what you want is for her to do your thinking for you.

The Greens sold out.
Butter it up ant you want but that is what happened.

Deal with it.

by Rational Ecologist Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:56

Aarhus is included in the programme for Government and is extremely important. I myself have highlighted this to the European Commission. Every Irish person needs to be made aware of Aarhus. A publicity camapign is essential.
Sharon, you still refuse to provide practical policies. It's all to easy to criticise and tear down( I undersatnd your anger at GP), however, real maturity is to provide solutions.
I still await a meaningful response.

by W. Finnerty Thu Jul 05, 2007 14:58

While we're waiting for Sharon's "words", mine would be: "The Aarhus Convention Agreement" - which, as far as I know, the entire population of our Oireachtas (i.e. Parliament), and our legal profession, have been unlawfully ignoring since the Republic of Ireland signed this agreement in 1998.

The Government has, and has had for the past nine years or so, a well-defined Constitutional responsibility to have this United Nations international agreement "laid before Dail Eireann". Anybody in doubt regarding this point, should please read Article 29.5.1 of Bunreacht na hEireann (Constitution of the Republic of Ireland).

Now is a really GREAT opportunity for the Greens to arrange for "ratification" (in Dail Eireann) of this extremely useful and benign international environmental agreement, which is possibly the most important international agreement of its kind EVER produced, and which almost all the nations of Europe have by now ratified.

There's still not a word about it (almost) in the Republic of Ireland though, which is something that very badly needs to be looked into in my view.

After all, Green Party Leader Hopeful John Gormley is NOW the Cabinet Minister for Environment, Heritage and Local Government, and the Aarhus Convention Agreement is - and always has been - an absolute gift to all who are genuinely interested in protecting the environment by democratic means (of the very highest quality).

I do hope all this is "constructive"?

Related link: http://www.europeancourtofhumanrightswilliamfinnerty.co...l.htm

by Sharon. - Individual . Thu Jul 05, 2007 14:56

Hi Rational Ecologist !

" Sharon.Let's for a moment assume that you are 100% right on your attitude to the Green Party. Putting this aside, can you offer a few suggestions on how we deal with the issues(Tara, Corrib, Global Warming. Peak Oil.) I am sincerely looking for some ideas? "
That "attitude" (in relation to the conduct of the now-elected Green Party)
is not exclusive to me - others on this thread (and elsewhere) feel the same . In regards to suggestions , you made a good one yourself - " What we really need is a mass movement to deal with these issues. " The disgraceful conduct of the leadership of the Green Party has further damaged that possibility ie 'they say one thing in opposition but don't follow it through in power' . Excuse the language , please , but the Green Party has s**t on its own doorstep .

"You seem to be very good at de-constructing other people's point of view, however, you need to suggest some practical ideas."
Only when that other point of view is built on sand . Practical ideas - such as those already in use (pickets , protests , bringing the issue to a wider [global] audience etc) - should be continued and where/when feasible , increased . It is not 'practical' to campaign long and hard on this (or any other issue) and then do a u-turn on it for reasons of political self-gain , as has happened here .

"If I seem a bit " all over the place " it's perhaps because that's how I feel."
Why so ? Eamon Ryan , the new Green man in charge , is 'not all over the place' on this issue ie 'Mr Ryan said the decision to construct the motorway alongside the Hill of Tara was a decision of the last Government and "this is a new Government". ' Do you agree with Mr Ryan in this instance (thereby agreeing with all that such an agreement would entail) or do you not agree with him ? It has to be one or the other . As stated previously - "Get off the fence" .

"What we really need is a mass movement to deal with these issues. Do you think this likely? "
It is less likely now , following the Green Party u-turn , as potential supporters will naturally be disillusioned by the actions of Mr Ryan and company .

"Don't give me links and please desist from cutting and pasting other people's words. It is unecessary."
The links I posted (apart from my usual signature link) were in connection with the Green Party's u-turn on this issue and therefore relevant . The only cut and paste I have done is to re-position the questions/comments you put to me , and I then reply to same .

" Let's hear some of your words on this matter."
Certainly . All my 'words' on this issue , in this thread , are published by myself , 'Sharon' , and listed under my name at the beginning of each relevant post . Whose 'words' did you think you were replying to ?

"Kyoto is only a tiny start and is not enough!"
If those that proposed the Kyoto Protocol as a possible solution were then , on obtaining power , to dis-own them for political expediency , how would you feel ?

Sharon .

by Rational Ecologist Thu Jul 05, 2007 14:02

Sharon.Let's for a moment assume that you are 100% right on your attitude to the Green Party. Putting this aside, can you offer a few suggestions on how we deal with the issues(Tara, Corrib, Global Warming. Peak Oil.) I am sincerely looking for some ideas?
You seem to be very good at de-constructing other people's point of view, however, you need to suggest some practical ideas.
If I seem a bit " all over the place " it's perhaps because that's how I feel.
What we really need is a mass movement to deal with these issues. Do you think this likely?
Don't give me links and please desist from cutting and pasting other people's words. It is unecessary.
Let's hear some of your words on this matter.
Lets assume all 166 TDs have been abducted by aliens( Not a tragedy by any means!)
Kyoto is only a tiny start and is not enough!
I am trying to be constructive.
Thanks

by Sharon. - Individual. Thu Jul 05, 2007 13:39

Hi Rational Ecologist !

"Hi Sharon. Thanks for your comments, however, you did not answer my question in relation to an alternative. Do we need to abandon the Dáil?"
I have already stated my opinion on that issue (twice , so far) : see this thread at these timelines -
Céad Iúil 04, 2007 18:50
Máirt Iúil 03, 2007 16:36

"We are at a crisis point as regards Global Warming. That is a fact. What are we going to do about it?"
The Green Party are ineffectual at solving 'home-grown' conservation issues and I , for one , have no reason to believe that they will not be bought-off again (by Fianna Fail or one of the other professional political outfits) in regards to the 'pledges' they have made regarding global warming . Their word is no longer their bond .

"Please offer something constructive rather than engaging in some form of intellectual Wimbledon."
"Constructive" ? Is it "constructive" on your part to say that you are "largely in agreement" with me regarding this issue whilst , at the same time , calling for support for the Green Party and then stating that you are "greatly conflicted on the Fianna Fail/Green Party pact" ?
Get off the fence , 'Rational Ecologist' : at the moment you are all over the place in relation to this issue .

Sharon.

by ex green Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:37

sharon is right . I voted for the greens for Tara and because of whats going on in mayo and feel disgusted with myself now .
I'll know better next time but thats no consolation to me now. the posters here who are trying to excuse the uturns have more to answer for than sharon and the others like her who are not afraid to call a spade a spade .
Once bitten twice shy.

by Green Fingers Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:32

The Greens should pull out. They can effect no change in Government that would not have been forced on the Government by the EU anyway.

This is the intellectual lie the Greens have been peddling as a cover up for their sell out. That they place the environment and threats like 'global warming' above mere politics.

FF has no commitment to the environment. IBEC won’t let them.

Environmental change will be brought about by enforcing international treaties like Kyoto.

Either the Greens have deluded themselves that they can do better for the world than Kyoto by going into government with a shower of gangsters or they are aware of the duplicity of their capitulation and are in fact indulging in Intellectual Wimbledon themselves.

The fact that the have become unrepentant apologists fro FF in the past weeks really speaks volumes.

by Rational Ecologist Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:50

Hi Sharon. Thanks for your comments, however, you did not answer my question in relation to an alternative. Do we need to abandon the Dáil?
We are at a crisis point as regards Global Warming. That is a fact. What are we going to do about it?
Please offer something constructive rather than engaging in some form of intellectual Wimbledon.
I am largely in agreement with your points and I am greatly conflicted on the FF/GP pact.

by Sharon . - Individual . Wed Jul 04, 2007 23:39

Hi Rosa !

" The theme of much of the comment in this discussion is the bitter disapointment of the fringe left at the Greens going into government with capitalist parties."
Not so : the majority of the comments on this thread are in connection with the Green Party having so blatantly dumped their pre-election pledges .

"The fringe just doesn't get it. But then, it wouldn't be the "fringe" if it did!"
It wasn't all that long ago (a matter of weeks , only!) that the Green Party were on that 'fringe' !

"The Greens are not a socialist party - (nor a specifically capitalist one either) so it is rather unfair to accuse them of letting down people with whom the Greens have little in common and owe nothing to."
A poor attempt at a 'spin' , Rosa !
It is the people that voted for the Green Party that feel let down , as is evident from this thread .

"The Green movement is radical but not socialist. Its policies on the environment and governance are probably only viable within a capitalist liberal-democratic framework because the rigid top-down authoritanarianism which is an inherent characteristic of societies subjected to marxist economics is anathema to the Green project."
None of which was mentioned in their electorate literature ie 'Vote for us if you are concerned about Tara , Shell etc' . People did so , Rosa , only to have the 'small print' thrown at them afterwards .

"The sad thing for the fringe left is that having seen its analysis and policies utterly rejected by the electorate, it has codded itself into believing that the green vote is somehow really a vote for socialism."
Or is it that the electorate 'had codded itself into believing that the green vote was somehow really a vote' that would make a difference ?

Sharon.

by rosa Wed Jul 04, 2007 20:57

The theme of much of the comment in this discussion is the bitter disapointment of the fringe left at the Greens going into government with capitalist parties.

The fringe just doesn't get it. But then, it wouldn't be the "fringe" if it did!

The Greens are not a socialist party - (nor a specifically capitalist one either) so it is rather unfair to accuse them of letting down people with whom the Greens have little in common and owe nothing to.

The Green movement is radical but not socialist. Its policies on the environment and governance are probably only viable within a capitalist liberal-democratic framework because the rigid top-down authoritanarianism which is an inherent characteristic of societies subjected to marxist economics is anathema to the Green project.

The sad thing for the fringe left is that having seen its analysis and policies utterly rejected by the electorate, it has codded itself into believing that the green vote is somehow really a vote for socialism.

by Sharon - Individual Wed Jul 04, 2007 18:50

....by withdrawing from this corrupt Administration .

Hi Rational Ecologist !

"Revolutionary" ? To give a political commitment , verbally , in writing and repeatedly , then ditch same as soon an an Office , staff and 'prestige' is offered : is that what you consider 'revolutionary' ?

You would be better employed in directing your quite-justified disappointment and annoyance at being let down at those who let you down , not at those who highlight the fact that you have been let down .

Sharon.

by Rational Ecologist Wed Jul 04, 2007 13:17

Ok. What's your suggestion? What's your vision? This Govt collapses and Enda Kenny is leader. Now that's revolutionary!
Can you provide me with what you see as answer to this problem. Provide me with an alternatve. I think we are in agreement on the issues, however, I would like to see your manifesto.
I am not being smart. I'd like to see a genuine alternative, not forgetting that FF/FG/Lab still dominate Irish politics and that socialists are greens are marginalised.

by Sharon . - Individual. Tue Jul 03, 2007 16:36

Hi Rational Ecologist !
" I was being practical in suggesting that people get their voice heard where it matters rather than waxing on endlessly in fora where they are merely " preaching to the converted ".
I believe those that voted for the Green Party in the last election were of the opinion that that was what they were doing .

"Join the Greens and scream until your voice is heard and tell your friends and colleagues to do the same! "
The Green Party members that sit at State Cabinet level cannot get their 'voice heard' , yet you would have us believe that new members who join the Party can somehow change that situation ?

"If they do try to proceed with the M3 through Tara then I'll see you all there. It can"t go ahead. Target Dempsey. He seems to be " driving " this to keep his constituents happy."
"Target Dempsey" ?
What a coincidence that Eamon Ryan is pushing much the same line -
"Tara was a decision of the last Government and "this is a new Government"..."
(http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhkfojkfeyoj/rss2/)
Is that how the Green Party intend to 'excuse' their broken political promises - 'nothing to do with us -blame the last crowd' ?

" Vote Patricia.
I am not a member of GP but I am considering it in order to vote for Patricia.
A huge upsurge of new members would scare the shite out of the top echelons of the party and keep them " focused "
Don't be too quick to dismiss this idea..........please!"
The Green Party leadership have themselves , by their recent disgraceful conduct , 'dismissed' that belief already . They should instead , I believe , "focus" their attention on "scaring the sh*te" out of Fianna Fail by signalling their intent to collapse this administration unless they can enact the pre-election pledges they gave to their electorate . And then be prepared to do so , if necessary .

Sharon.

by Rational Ecologist Tue Jul 03, 2007 14:02

If they do try to proceed with the M3 through Tara then I'll see you all there. It can"t go ahead. Target Dempsey. He seems to be " driving " this to keep his constituents happy.
Vote Patricia.
I am not a member of GP but I am considering it in order to vote for Patricia.
A huge upsurge of new members would scare the shite out of the top echelons of the party and keep them " focused "
Don't be too quick to dismiss this idea..........please!

by Rational Ecologist Tue Jul 03, 2007 13:51

I am dissapointed that my opinions weren't taken a bit more seriously. I am not suggesting that people stop becoming involved at grassroots level. I was being practical in suggesting that people get their voice heard where it matters rather than waxing on endlessly in fora where they are merely " preaching to the converted ".
Join the Greens and scream until your voice is heard and tell your friends and colleagues to do the same! If that fails then try plan B and feel morally superior.

by Sharon . - Individual . Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:39

HI Rational Ecologist !

"... the Greens only secured 6 seats, so to expect their footprint to appear too large on the programme for Govt is very naive."
Powerless , then , from 'inside' ....

" You cannot change things from without. "
...and from 'outside' , too .

"Swell the ranks of the party and force those at the top to listen."
And be 'used' as a foot-soldier by those whose political opinions you hope to change ?
No thanks .

Sharon.

by Rational Ecologist Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:17

By no means am I fully comfortable with the Greens being in Government with FF. Let me make that 100% clear. I despise FF and what they stand for, however, the Greens only secured 6 seats, so to expect their footprint to appear too large on the programme for Govt is very naive.
The best thing to do is for you disaffected folk to join the party and make life very uncomfortable for those who have taken " Bertie's shilling". You cannot change things from without. Get in and vote for Patricia McKenna in the leadership contest. Now that would be constructive and mature.
If you want to feel good do something that will have results.
I understand the anger of all those who have addressed my posting, however, we have to be smart.
Swell the ranks of the party and force those at the top to listen.

by Padraic Sat Jun 30, 2007 02:06

I find it extraordinary how the Greens play the pragmatist card on all of this yet still try to find some sort of credence within their own political objectives to dismiss all criticism of their sell out.

It may take 5 years but the truth will out and the Greens will be exposed as expedient wanna bes and northing more

by Jim O'Sullivan Fri Jun 29, 2007 18:06

"Don't read too much into the agreed programme. Since when have programmes for Govt been fully implemented."

Rational Ecologist, Mary Harney has not waited a second, she's bang in there flogging the family silver as we mutter and splutter with no regard whatever for the sensibilities of the Greens.
Once again, read my lips-get a copy of the Programme for Government to which the Greens signed up to and ingest it slowly. Whatever about some of it not becoming practise, one thing is for sure, Green policies will never see the light of day because they don't appear in the programme and therefore will never even come up at cabinet meetings. So stop kidding yourself. This guff about influencing from within was used to give those that attended the special conference a reason for supporting the wish of the leaders because they came back from their week in discussions with FF with nothing else. The ordinary members of the Green Party are nice trusting people, unfortunately. They were as lambs to the slaughter.

by Sharon . - Individual Fri Jun 29, 2007 13:05

Hi Rational Ecologist !

" I firmly believe that the Greens have entered Government to make a positive difference. ....time is running short on a lot of green issues and it is only in Government that the Greens can bring some influence to bear.... at least there is a strong green voice in Govt...."

A 'strong' voice not listened to.....
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhkfojkfeyoj/rss2/

......is of no real benefit .

Sharon.

by Rational Ecologist Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:37

The Green Party holds 6 Dáil seats not 80. The reason being that the vast majority of the electorate voted for " business-as-usual". I hate that fact but it is a fact nonetheless. I firmly believe that the Greens have entered Government to make a positive difference. They would have expected all this-understandable-criticism. I believe there is a foot in the door now. I have a lot of faith in the GP and I urge people to be suportive.
Time is running short on a lot of green issues and it is only in Government that the Greens can bring some influence to bear.
Irish politicians and indeed the electorate needs education on environmental issues. At least there is a strong green voice in Govt.
Don't read too much into the agreed programme. Since when have programmes for Govt been fully implemented.

by Sharon. - Individual . Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:45

........of the Hill of Tara ?
(More here - http://11sixtynine.blogsome.com/2007/06/26/green-gold-b...uits/)

Sharon.

Green(s) mark the spot .

by Jim O'Sullivan Wed Jun 27, 2007 08:34

First the betrayal and now propaganda.

Etain - The Green Party, tries this on,

"We may be able to retrieve something positive from the mess we have got ourselves into. Being a reasonable person, I say give the newly appointed government time to look into the proposed legislations."

Sargeant and co did not just agree to vote for Bertie or support him in government in a piecemeal, issue by issue manner. In return for a few pieces of silver, they have agreed a Programme for Government, which is the FF/PD manifesto rewritten-nothing less. The Greens have agreed to support FF/PD to implement this programme which is completely at odds with everything they told the electorate they stood for.

And then this,

"It is up to us all as ordinary citizens to make our presence felt, by lobbying, writing letters of objection."

Need I remind you Etain that we did try to make our presence felt, we went out and voted for the Greens in the hope that the sitting government would not be returned. We did our bit, we refused to give them the numbers to return to power. It was the Greens and a few ragbag independents that then stabbed the electorate in the back and thwarted our efforts. Writting letters will achieve nothing.

Take for example the co-location plan. This will profoundly change our society and will place inequity at the heart of how we deal with each other. Those with money will receive the best while those with little will have to wait. The two tier system will be copper fastened and it will be extremely difficult to untangle that should this government get 5 years to grow the for-profit sector. There is great unease in the community generally regarding this and this was underlined by a poll taken by the Irish Times (result published on 25/6), which showed that 68% of those asked said that co-location should not proceed. Harney and Ahearn have no intention of paying any attention to that because they have obviously given committments to their friends that the Health Sector will be opened up for exploitation by their speculator friends. And the Greens are now lying very close to those speculators in the same bed with FF/PD's.

So stop fooling yourself or trying to defend the indefensible Etain, you and every person that voted for the Greens has been had.

by d'other Tue Jun 26, 2007 23:13

The quote putting coalition with Fianna Fail as on a par with a "deal with the devil" is from Cuffe's blog over at http://cuffestreet.blogspot.com/

Its the post titled "it's good to be back."

I'm sure the other quote is just as traceable though it might be wise for the authors to footnote the next time round.

by Green Stalker Tue Jun 26, 2007 15:12

‘Asking the Green Party to go into office with Fianna Fail really does not take account of the real world,’ Trevor Sargent, Green Party leader, May 22nd

After Green Party TD Ciaran Cuffe described a deal with Fianna Fail as a ‘deal with the devil’

Do you have sources for those quotes please?

by Etain - The Green Party Tue Jun 26, 2007 13:26

We may be able to retrieve something positive from the mess we have got ourselves into. Being a reasonable person, I say give the newly appointed government time to look into the proposed legislations.

As regards the M3 and Tara, all is not lost, Im sure there must be someway of looking into the Environmental Impact Statement, I refer to the following

European Communities (Environmental Impact Assesment (Motorways)Regulations, 1988 (S.I. No.221 of 1988)

These regulations incorporate the requirements fo the EC EIA Directive (85/337/EEC) into the motorway scheme proceedure in the Local Government (Roads and Motorways) Act, 1974.

It is up to us all as ordinary citizens to make our presence felt, by lobbying, writing letters of objection.