Dublin Against the Bin Tax at City Hall for Estimates meeting.

by John McDermott - www.fiannafailparty.biz Tue Dec 26, 2006 16:08

No to stealth taxes and double taxation on the lowest paid.

Wasters.

by John H. Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:48

Your missing the point.

I have no problem with producer pays taxes, but again you have equated domestic refuse to 'produced refuse'. Tax the corporate sector who by and large produce this excess waste, rampant use of plastics, fillers, polystyrine etc etc. and tax them directly.

Leave the disadvantaged alone. Encourage recycling yes, but dont penalise these people again because they are forced to by cheap pre-packaged goods in supermarkets.

by Urban Form Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:41

There are so many ways to reduce the hardship on the most vulnerable and disadvantaged in society, including the added hardship of a bin tax such as this one. In my opinion the waiver doesn't reduce this hardship; instead it just compensates them for it. So long as the financial benefit of the waiver is directly linked to the waste itself and the person's financial status then why seek to reduce the waste? Why can't the vulnerable have their disadvantaged status addressed in a general way such as increased benefit payments that aren't linked to a bin tax? That way the incentive to reduce the waste remains for everyone.

Making them exempt from such bin charges is externalising the costs to them for the environmental impact of such waste. So long as the costs to the environment are not incurred by those who produce the waste it's never going to be dealt with.

And people wonder why incinerators are needed...

by John H. Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:29

Bin charges in practice (particularly in the abscense of a waiver scheme) only create hardship for those who are most vulnerable or disdvantaged in society.

It is primarily a means for a local authority to offload its responsibilities to the private sector or generate revenue for a service it had thus far been providing free of charge and most importantly ALREADY PAYED FOR from taxation.
It is a right wing myth that privatising all vital services will force greater and more economic management of these services.

Somebody already mentioned in this thread that a privatised collection service was charging €10 a week. That is nothing short of legalised public extortion.

Private companies care little for provision of services in these areas because by their nature they are exclusive, Vital, perceived to be for the greater good and tend toward monopolies.

Eco-friendly services falter and are abandoned and profit becomes the name of the game.
It is the Dogma of the business community and no amount of RW guff or spin can change that.

by Urban Form Mon Dec 11, 2006 18:18

Bin taxes is one of many ways in which the Council (and Government) should be looking to encourage less waste.

In my opinion the more specific the tax the better

by John H. Mon Dec 11, 2006 14:48

Not every service, just vital services and I think we can all agree that waste collection is a vital service.

You use other countries as a justification for bin charges and from that one can conclude than you agree with them.

This is where we differ. Waste collection should be free with provisions for recycling included, green bins etc etc.

You speak of waste generation in Ireland without identifying the highest generators of waste. High volume producers are in the commercial sector, not the domestic thus it is equally unfair to ask domestic households to disproportionally foot the bill as well.

High volume waste producers should be taxed accordingly and that will more than pay for the service.
The same high volume producers will then pursue methods to avoid waste and save costs.

Add to this pro-active domestic recycling and these are bound to have positive knock-on effects for the landfill and incinerator debates.

Last but not least, Bin charges whether to the public purse or privateers is double taxation.

Government expenditure in Vital services is being cut in advance of privatisation, yet the net tax intake to the exchequer is rising.

Odd, is it not?

by Jasper Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:52

I'm not sure how every service in this country is to be paid for by tax revenue. I don't have a problem with paying a charge towards waste management.

Local authorities and municipalities all over the world have private companies collecting waste for them.

You also have to look at how much waste is being generated in ireland and the available landfill space which is driving up the cost of landfill.

Until irelannd has a solution for residual waste beyond the landfill and limited recycling, then waste management will be costly. Taxes can't cover it all. That's just the reality of it.

by John H. Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:32

What are you saying is nonsense Jasper?

That individual charging leads to privatisation or that vital services should be provided free at the point of delivery and paid from general taxation? Or both.

by Jasper Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:03

People seem to forget that the more they recycle, the less they pay. The basic charges in Dublin are pretty small and certainly a lot smaller than in other parts of the country. There's a sizeable amount of waste that can be recycled through a combination of green bins and reycycling centres but that might require a little more effort.

There's plenty of effort being put into protessting but very little to do your bit for the environment, beyond whining about every waste management tool that's mooted.

Jesus wept.

by Jim O'Sullivan, Sligo Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:47

What is wrong with your stance Dermot is that it undermines the princlipal of providing vital services that ALL can readily access. When individual charges are levied, the most vulnerable suffer in all cases. Individual charging is the Poll Tax ideology in practice. Here in Sligo, waste charges were introduced and then the entire service was "privatised" .The introduction of individual charges facilitates the move to privatisation and make no mistake, if individual charging is bedded in, privatisation will soon follow. By the way, there is no waiver for anyone in Sligo and the charge to remove a bin is an extortionate10 euro. The bottom line must be that all vital servcies are provided free at the point of delivery and paid for from general taxation.

by Dermot Lacey Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:34

Niall,

I do not understand the question. That is exactly how the charge is applied. The fact that in some areas some campaigners are misleading people into believing that they should not or will not have to pay is a separate issue.

by niallmcg Sun Dec 10, 2006 21:43

Cllr Lacey you said

" Yes I do believe that it is reasonable that each household, excluding those entitled to the Waiver that we protected, should have to pay E20 per quarter or roughly E1.60 per week to cover the costs of the waste collection disposal points, the provision of litter bins and all the other waste services provided. Even if a person does not use the actual collection services we all produce some waste or at least benefit from others who do."

If that is the case why is this charge not applied to all those households (excluding waivers) in City Council areas, e.g. east wall ballybough

by Dermot Lacey Wed Nov 29, 2006 17:04

Sadly some people have no civic responsibility and wonderful that most people do.

by no rubbish Wed Nov 29, 2006 17:02

yeh right

by stealth tax Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:59

Dublin is a cesspit of rubbish and this tax will not change that

Do the people collecting the tax guarantee that the money collected will be put into rubbish collection exclusively?

bet they dont....

watch it get privitised right in front of your eyes, then the charges go up....to make it **sustainable**

old dog, old tricks

by Dermot Lacey Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:54

Niall,

Thanks for your comments. Yes I do believe that it is reasonable that each household, excluding those entitled to the Waiver that we protected, should have to pay E20 per quarter or roughly E1.60 per week to cover the costs of the waste collection disposal points, the provision of litter bins and all the other waste services provided. Even if a person does not use the actual collection services we all produce some waste or at least benefit from others who do.

I have no problem in defending my political record and will debate anytime with others. I do however strongly object to my honesty and integrity being questioned by some on the Indymedia site. Sadly for them I also don't believe it helps their cause either.

by niallmcg Tue Nov 28, 2006 21:25

so is the ridiculous service charge going to continue?

cllr lacey, i admire the fact that you keep coming here and justifying your reasons (which I don't agree with but that's democracy) but can you justify beng charged 20 euro per quarter for a 'service' you may not avail of??

by Dermot Lacey Tue Nov 28, 2006 20:33

Caobhin,

You are entitled to your opinion however you should get the occasional fact right.

Principal fact is that since my highly publicised vote in favour of the Estimates, in favour of a lower charge than the Manager wished, in favour of the retention of a democratically elected Council and in favour of the retention of the Waste Collection Service being retained in the Public Service, there has been an election and
for the first time ever Labour topped the poll in my ward and the largest ever Labour Group on Dublin City Council was elected.

The second fact is that, as even those who voted gainst them said, the Budget agreed last night was the most progressive and inclusive budget ever agreed by the City Counci.

I can accept that people have a principled view that Service Charges are wrong - even if I do not agree with that view.

People should also accept that some of us have a principled view the other way.l

by Matty 'mines a double' Toomeey - citizen Tue Nov 28, 2006 18:43

Dermot Lacey may wish for another mayor to be labelled pro-bin tax but it is Lacey who will always be remembered for his lackie stance. Lacey will always be associated with introducing this double tax.
Thankfully, Labour are still suffering in Dublin because of their treachery. No chance of power for the wanna be blueshirts led by ther ex-stickie brigade.
As for the other commentsd from council "worker". The term does not exist. A body of old and tired piss heads spending tax payers money on faulty projects. Boil the kettle again brother and stop waffling about council "workers".

by Council Worker - DCC Tue Nov 28, 2006 16:50

What a pathetic little tirade!
50% of last night's budget goes on payroll costs.
Put yourself forward for election and let's see how you get on. Alternatively, let us hear your proposal for paying wages and pensions in 2007.
And no, Demot Lacey doesn't know me and Vincent Jackson seems to me to be an honourable man.

by Caobhin Tue Nov 28, 2006 16:36

Jackson is only following your example by betraying the mandate he got him elected seduced by the trappings of lord mayorship, just like you were when you betrayed your mandate.

It is the likes of you that is in league with FF/PD/FG despite your twisted contortions and pathetic attempt to ally the ABTC with those parasites. Your shameful role in the introduction of the bin tax and the jailing of peaceful protestors that went hand in hand with it's imposition is not forgotten. Privatisation is the endgame here it always was only the resistance of communities has delayed it's introduction - you know it.

by Dermot Lacey Tue Nov 28, 2006 14:15

Fair play Council worker you are absolutely spot on. Yes the Lord Mayor voted for the estimates and enhanced his standing with fellow Councillors for taking a stand and accepting his responsibilities as Lord Mayor.

The charge for waste collection is not a matter over which Councillors have any say, - thanks to that unique coalition of FF/PD Govt and the ABTC.

The Estiamtes did contain a range of improvements in funding allocation for Housing Maintenance, Planning enforcement, Senior Citizens services, Parks upgrading, etc etc. It also had a significant increase in street cleaning, waste reduction and collection services and was welcomed by all Councillors. The only difference is that some of us had the courage to vote for it.

by John - SP Tue Nov 28, 2006 13:13

So was this the vote on the estimates last night, how did everyone vote?

by Council Worker - DCC Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:21

The bin charge represent about 0.026% of the total € 847 million budget for 2007.
Maybe the Lord Mayor has discovered that responsibility comes with representation.
Get a life lads!!!!

by Padraic Dunne Tue Nov 28, 2006 09:46

I see Vincent Jackson voted in favour of the bin tax at the council meeting. He said he thought he should as lord mayor and the city has a generous waiver system. Isn't that the same Jackson who Joan Collins voted for to be lord mayor!

by Ordinary Man Mon Nov 27, 2006 23:42

Its great to see the 'golden oldies' out and about and getting active. Hats off to them.