When Mc Dowell wants "Yes to mean No"

by oliver twist Wed May 24, 2006 22:23

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0524/sexoffences.html
Rte have now moved from archiving the story from "SEX" to "Sex offences".

This story will run, Mc dowell will ensure that, he has a habit of returning to "sexual morality" when in trouble elsewhere, its part of his psychological profile. It will also be interesting to see what (if any) contribution to the national debate is made by the newest "prominent" recruit to the Progressive Democrats, Colm O’Gorman of the "One in Four" group - the Irish umbrella organisation on child sexual abuse. c/f http://www.oneinfour.org/ Interestingly 54 individuals may be implicated in having once comitted the crime of "adolescent consentual sex", without waiting on the girl to reach her 16th birthday... They've been on the sex offenders register. Thats a pretty shit list to be on. Its worse than being a known ultra lefty militant, a dissident republican, or a suspected agent of the Mossad.

Of course Charles Dicken's dealt with "underage sex" as well, off the top of my head I can think of 7 of his many novels which describe adolescent sexual acts, including the original text of "Oliver Twist", read carefully the interaction between little teenage Oliver & the young female friends of nasty Mr Sykes. Your Xmas film special never explained what those girls did for a living - did it?

by don't tell !!!!! Thu May 25, 2006 04:01

With remarkable agility the government has revealed how many people on that list are currently in prison. 7 being the number. There are still over 50 people who haven't been mentioned & we face a mathematically sound forecast of file details being leaked soon of either those who previously, currently or are awaiting trial for whatever law they're going to call it. http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0524/sexoffences.html Bertie does father of the nation. that's the Haughey-de Valera lineage.

Of course there are also cultural and ethnic dimensions to all this.

As well as serious challenges for liberal parents pondering their kids teenage birthday parties. Is the current legislature and judiciary of Ireland up to the challenge of treating on these issues without regard to class, culture, ethnicity, alcopop, in a proper way?

watch them.

Now do a derida (c/f http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=66979) analysis of Irish print and broadcast media peppering it with Freud's anniversary & wonder who first mentioned rape in our recent national narrative - - - - was that a crime?


We want to read everyone's files please, Deputies Ahern & Mc dowell.
Not just what you leak to us.
& it is our constitutional right.

by F S S Thu May 25, 2006 05:48

Does this ruling mean a certain judge will soon be getting his computer back from the Gardaí?

The government had lots of foreknowledge that this ruling was coming. It's incredible that legislation wasn't waiting to happen as this vacuum occured. I guess McDowell was too busy with his intrigues to notice or care.

A FF senator yesterday in senate said on behalf of all the other senators (without asking their permission) that they'd convene at anytime to help solve the problems that this ruling causes, even a Sunday. Why didn't FF and the PD's or indeed any of the 'elect,' put in a bit of effort beforehand?

In all fairness, it's obvious that most of our elect couldn't find their arses with both hands tied behind their backs - but McDowell, as much as a sack of shite as he is, he's not stupid - why has he not prepared for this?

Think about it, most of the legislation needed to cover this is very simple. Instead we have Bertie standing up in the Dáil and saying that constitutional rights cannot be applied retroactively, but quickly added that prison officials are examining files of those incarcerated. Bertie hoped to have a report off them by lunchtime, but there was no news of it so I guess he's still waiting - he's good at that.

What would have been the relevance of this report in drafting new legislation, the impact of the ruling is quite obvious. The domino effect it could have on laws regarding sexual issues, could be quite catastrophic. (Just think about the Judge and his crimes.)

I see legislation coming from this that puts a legal imperative on a child to tell the truth of his or her age. This would be an attempt to proportion blame. If a child cannot legally consent to a sex then it should follow that the same child should not be able to legalise the act by lying. Nor should an adult be able to use a lie to avoid punishment. The law has long removed responsibility for rape from the rape victim. A child cannot sign a contract. A child shouldn't be able to remove the illegality from the acts of a paedophile.

by G.B.S. Thu May 25, 2006 15:34

Which amounts to creating a "phase" of a few years in which it is ok for adolescents to do certain things with each other as long they both consent. That would mean lots of new laws though. & the "birthday party" test case would still cause huge problems. And if Ireland has proven one thing, it is this - she has a gift for test cases, age and sexual morality issues...
Interestingly the PD's seem to believe they have the "sexual lobby" behind them. & thus I do note the silence of the gay marriage lobby who are awaiting his civil partnership legislation ever so patiently.
Irish law has only ever covered the "girl child" you see. Why are boys treated so differently? Because quite honestly there isn't an "Irish sexual lobby". We don't have a "gender politics" national debate.

So...

I'd like to add one more dimension to the 3 very important ones already listed :-
*Legal - watch them go!
*Class- (meaning there is a direct correalation between age of first sexual activity and socio-economic status)
*Cultural & Ethnic - (meaning that betrothal occurs at an earlier age in the Irish Traveller community and many of our newer migrant groups than in the "middle classes")

& it is this -
*Gender Politics - Do the PD's really represent the wisest streams of thought on such things in our society? Why have the investigations into child abuse been so slow to satisfy public opinion that the matter has been dealt with? Why has Mc Dowell chosen to dilute "same sex civil partnership" legislation from states so far removed from Ireland's cultural / socio-economic background? Who is leading the PD Sex agenda? Now........... let's see who will lift their little head up and offer soundbytes.

by Wilhelm Reich Thu May 25, 2006 15:50

Since 1935 how many children have been born in Ireland to mothers of 16 years and 9 months (or less) of age?
Is that figure in the dozens? hundreds? thousands?

by pharasee Thu May 25, 2006 20:28

Thus I am not surprised that the minister with responsibility for our lack of health service has told the Dail & Media that the thinking man's pharasee Big Swinging Mickey Mc Dowell needs till next Tuesday to sort out an explanation of all this.

Lets recap :-

1) this has legal consequences & has blown open our treatment of many young people in the past, leading to unconstitutional imprisonment and life destroying categorisation as sex criminals.

2) this has socio-economic consequences, the vast majority of those who begin their sexual experiences in early teenage years who are not victims of child abuse or incest come from the most deprived classes of the nation.

3) this has cultural and ethnic consequences, there are 3 groups, one which is "indiginous" Irish and two others "recently arrived migrant groups" who practise betrothal agreements & sometimes even marriage ritual between people "in and around" the Irish age of consent.

4) this has gender political consequences, Irish law treats the "innocence" or "virginty" or "chastity" of a female in regards to a male in a completely inconsistent way when "female & female", "male & male" or even "male & female" are considered.

5) this has health consequences, the Irish state has long occupied amongst the highest positions of teenage pregnancy in the developed world, and most gynaecologists concur that commencing sexual activity in eary teenage is associated with higher risks of cervical cancer, fybroids and STD.

6) this has educational consequences, our society has changed much in the last generations and there is now little doubt that our teenagers are more knowledgeable of thier own sexuality and furthermore subject to thinly veiled sexual marketing of a variety of products and lifestyles. It is also clear that the Irish state for various reasons (intransigence and opposition of the RC church being one) has not enforced a uniform approach to sexual health or gender awareness education.

7) this has raises serious questions of compensation to those individuals who convicted of no other crime have served or are serving prison sentances.

it might have seemed a good idea to gurggle a quick press conference on this, Michael, getting all the mammy's and daddy's on your side whose idea of a 16th birthday party is a either a trip to Mc Donalds for a happy meal. But really these issues are beyond your intellectual capabilities.

You will now note that RTE has returned to categorising the story under "SEX" & not "Sex offenders"

big swinging mickey mc dowell does sex education for teenage boys.

by chris murray - The Unmanageables Fri May 26, 2006 21:00

Nor is escaping rape on the belief that the child said she was older than she was. This is a precedence setting case, and each case has to be judged individually but a statutory rape charge of a minor commuted, thrown out or otherwise negated because of the belief of the offender is something that should be treated with seriousness. As regards marriage brokering of children in the middle ages, this happened from birth and often when the couple married they did not have sex until it was considered that they had sufficently matured. The rights or wrongs of medieval marriage ceremonies do not apply here. The issue of statutory rape being dropped because of a subjective belief is completely wrong. There has to be legislation with full consultation with such groups as the National Women's Council, the Rape Crisis Centres and civil right's groups , as well as the kid's councils to address an issue which is
as usual giving the benefit of the doubt to the perpetrator of a crime and not the victim. The man accused in this case was near in age to the now woman, but the fact remains that it is setting up a template with little in the way of protections for the victims of rape.
Stats from rape crisis centres round Ireland regularly reported on the news state that the process of achieving justice in sexual crime is not trusted by the victim of the crime. the process of achieving justice in crimes of sexual violence is perceived to be weighted towards the perpetrator , the victim often assuming the burden of proof in the case. added to these stats are the new issues of people trafficing, isolation through language and social isolation of immigrants and asylum seekers. it is not an issue solely of the right to shag of the people who cannot bend their perspective to accomodate other's viewpoints that is inherently wrong here, it is the refusal to understand sexual violence as a crime and see that this judgement will affect more people in a negative way than help.

by oliver Fri May 26, 2006 21:26

I'll happily argue it out with reference to global statistics and historical record, on another thread.

It is important to note the role being played by those "who think" about "good government". We still have several days to go till the Cabinet is briefed by the lawyer whose sloppy legislation caused this problem. Meanwhile, the "16th birthday party test" has moved elements of the various establishments to highlight that many if not most of these cases are brought against "men over 18", and not boys in "teenage". Attention is also being brought to cases including girls of 12, 14 &c...
As was previously commented, it is mathematically probable that files be leaked. However the first information on the individuals serving or facing prison sentances has not been leaked, it has come from the other branch of government - the Courts. Note that RTE is pursuing the categorisation "sex" and has mentioned "children under 15". It has only been 2 days since Mc Dowell foolishly specified 15 as a criminal age for a man to have sex with a girl, without thought to "juvenile male offenders" or how the public were likely to react to his most unpopular face on the Telly..... He's since been called a pervert

= indications are that :- We are now moving as a society of thinkers without political bias to a solution which recognises the needs of all young people to be protected regardless of gender, and also to safeguard against unjust prosecution of cases which only include "teenagers". I reiterate my belief that the elements of socio-economic class, culture, ethnicity, health & education must form a part of that solution.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0526/sex.html
http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0526/stanv.html
http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0526/mcdowellm.html

by F S S Sun May 28, 2006 17:25

"The Law Reform Commission has recommended reducing the age limit for statutory rape from 14 to 12."

http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqid=1455...1.asp

by F S S Mon May 29, 2006 16:58

http://www.irishexaminer.com/irishexaminer/pages/story....1.asp
http://www.unison.ie/breakingnews/index.php3?ca=9&si=92520

The floodgates are opening.