Google Ireland puts a British Legion Poppy on its front page

by juan pablo Fri Nov 11, 2005 13:16

10,000s of irishmen fought in WW1(inc. also my grand.f), we (ireland) as part of the UK we were involved in the conflict, thus its only logical that we should commemorate, the symbol of the red poppy may be a british legion one but at this stage it is synonmous with the ww1 dead, any trivial details like technically it represents this that and the other are irrelevant as to the greater public it is WW1 dead we are commerating on this day.


btw to ward any likely attacks i am not a west brit, i am irish.

by pat c Fri Nov 11, 2005 13:20

If you want to remember those who died then wear a White Peace Poppy

The British Legion is a pro imperialist organisation. The money you give to them for your pooppy could end up in the pocket of a para who murdered people on Bloody Sunday.

by x Fri Nov 11, 2005 13:21

the poppy commemorates the war dead, not acts of war as you state.

a bit like a lily really, just a different colour, or perhaps remembering 17 year old boys who died at ypres is a bit dofferent than remembering no warning bombers .



wise up.

by pat c Fri Nov 11, 2005 13:25

i rang the number and made the complaint. will anyone get back to me?

by iosaf Fri Nov 11, 2005 13:30 bcn

I can't see it from here. All Google portals are normal including google.ie & interestingly i don't know the uk google address.

I reckon we should wear white feathers.

by heidi Fri Nov 11, 2005 13:30

i just clicked on the link and the poppys gone. fair play to you that didn't take long to take down at all.

by pat c Fri Nov 11, 2005 13:32

the Red Poppy commemorates all of those who served in the British Forces. The march past at the Cenotaph has different sections for WW1, WW2, Korea, the various Colonial Wars the Brits fought and the Malvinas.

The money raised from the sale of poppies could go to those who massacred villagers in Malaya or those who carried out the Bloody Sunday Massacre.

No warning bombers? Do you think the RAF gave warnings at Berlin or Baghdad, Belgrade or Basra?

by iosaf Fri Nov 11, 2005 13:35

if i goto google.co.uk, I get google uk but the search buttons are still in spanish, if i click the "Google.co.uk ofrecido en: English" i get google.co.uk/en and the poppy appears. But I've just tried google.ie and no matter what I do (specify english or gaeilge) the same poppy doesn't appear.

I wonder does this mean you only get to see the poppy if you live in Ireland? i think you should suggest the easter lilly thing to them.

by seedot Fri Nov 11, 2005 13:38

It was there an hour ago but a refresh shows it has been removed.

by anon Fri Nov 11, 2005 13:43

They should replace it with a white poppy to be fair.

by Seriously Fri Nov 11, 2005 13:55

If this is the only place that this has been mentioned, then I seriously doubt that it had ANY effect on the 'removal' of the poppy.

Google is a huge company with far more important things to do than pay attention to indymedia.ie

Cop yourselves on.

by pat c Fri Nov 11, 2005 13:58

a lot of people read indy. i reckon a fair number phoned google to complain. they are conscious of bad publicity.

by iosaf Fri Nov 11, 2005 13:59

Sorry Pat for the comments I left on the discussion thread of this issue, if they caused you any offence (where i suggested wearing an opium poppy for peace) or even a white feather.

The White poppy for Peace has since the 30s been alternative for all those who wish remember Armistice and the Great War before.

more details :-
http://www.ppu.org.uk/poppy/white_index.html

what a peace poppy looks like.

by pat c Fri Nov 11, 2005 14:06

i didnt realise it was you. you used different names. i dont think that the idea of an opium poppy would catch on though.

by alex maskey Fri Nov 11, 2005 14:14

Pat C ,stop being so sectarian ;what's wrong with the paras ?The poppy should have a shamrock inside it though just to let everybody know that we're still patriotic Irishmen . Then we'll be really able to wear our poppies with pride and be able to march to the cenotaph alongside our unionist neighbours and then they'll all start to like us .You can be a patriotic Irishman and fight for the British empire can't you ? - there's no contradiction in that surely.
Isn't the queen lovely ?I'm not sure about that Prince Charles though .Maybe the succession should go straight to Prince William -he looks just like his mother doesn't he ? My favourite was the queen mum though god bless her .
Another milestone for peace and unity between the people of these islands was reached last week when the Corrs received their honourary OBE's .If the peace process continues to deliver in this way , it is my firm conviction that within my own lifetime, our long-cherished aspiration of Irish unity can at last be achieved within the context of an overall settlement within these islands.

by seedot Fri Nov 11, 2005 14:18

They understand the internet.

In the link provided, enter indymedia.ie, unison.ie, rte.ie and ireland.com and see who comes out the highest.

This is based on the algorithms that are used for google i.e. their best guess at whats important.

by Mark C - Teacher Fri Nov 11, 2005 14:26

Why not wear nothing except your heart on your sleeve for peace?

by iosaf Fri Nov 11, 2005 14:31

(a poem by Alfred Lichtenstein born 23/ august/1889, he went to fight the emperor of England for his Kaiser in 1914. He lasted 7 weeks before taking his place amongst the dead)

Before I die I must just find this rhyme.
Be quiet, my friends, and do not waste my time.

We’re marching off in company with death.
I only wish my girl would hold her breath.

There’s nothing wrong with me. I’m glad to leave.
Now mother’s crying too. There’s no reprieve.

And now look how the sun’s begun to set.
A nice mass-grave is all that I shall get.

Once more the good old sunset’s glowing red.
in thirteen days I’ll probably be dead.

7 august 1914
____________________________________
he died fiel am 25/september/1914 in Vermandovillers on the Western Front.
[translated to english by Patrick Bridgewater.]
(i'm going to leave poems for and by the fallen of the Great War today at http://www.iosaf.allotherplaces.org )the blog no-one goes to.

by pat c Fri Nov 11, 2005 14:31

its a nice thought, but i fear not many people would notice your metaphorical heart. wearing a white poppy can prove more effective. its a symbol which people can actually observe; some will ask you questions about it.

by A10 Fri Nov 11, 2005 15:16

What a stupid thing to get so bloddy upset about.A poppy and what it signifies.And such a narrow minded view of being Irish.Christsakes hasnt the world got enough to worry about apart from some of us who insist in dredging up this islands past.?
Ill make sure to protest to Google at Easter if they put up a lilly,because it signifies the glorification of a terrorist organisation that has ruined this country for 33 years.Maybe protest at Christmas because a christmas tree insults some atheists.And on and on we will go.
Fuck sake people we can all find somthing to be insulted about in this life.Change your browser for the day if it bothers you so and go away and get a life with some real problems!

by A11 Fri Nov 11, 2005 15:20

A10 obviously you were a soldier with the empire forces, well then f..k off back then, a poppy symbolises the suffereing inflicted on people by British forces

wear one yourself you asshole

by iosaf Fri Nov 11, 2005 15:42

no greater love hath any man save he lay down his life for a friend. employer. local magistrate. licensed minister of publick worship. betrothed (without suffrage). kaiser or king. emperor or republic. neighbour or home ruler. careers officer. employment agency. sports instructor. president or queen. God or God.

they died.
enough to say.
they were not born with Lilleys, Red Flags, Votes,
Leagues of any nation, or any type of Flu.

They were not born to die in trenches.
So whatever happened afterwards, just take this time to remember all of them. Becuase if you had been born in their place, U2 would have died, or got flu. collection of great war poets at http://www.iosaf.allotherplaces.org

Next year maybe we'll all wear white poppies for peace, opium purple poppies for peace, or white feathers for objecting.

by StripeyCat Fri Nov 11, 2005 15:51

Unsurprisingly Google take Indymedia very seriously. As soon as the article appeared here they called me, and they took it down as they were speaking to me on the phone.

To be fair, they maintain that it was a technical issue, caused by the fact that the Irish site is linked to UK one.

As soon as they realised that the poppy was appearing on the Irish site (and an article about it was on Indymedia) , they got working on removing it.

Which seems to undermine the position of those who say that the red Poppy either has no political significance, or that it's it's all about remembering the war dead from Flanders...

by pat c Fri Nov 11, 2005 15:55

well done stripey cat! purrfect action!

by iosaf Fri Nov 11, 2005 16:13

please remember this is important.

At 11h today in 1918 this document (or something pretty much like it*) got signed in railway carriage in Compiègne in the current day Oise département of France. [riot free]
http://www.grande-guerre.org/Documents/Armistice.htm

Before that document got signed over 15 million people were known to have died, the vast majority of them died in trenches.

They had mostly been born in the period 1870 to 1890, and their own parents' generation had seen the first protests for
1) less than a ten hour day.
2) free primary school education.
3) votes for all men regardless of income and for some women.

when that document was signed, the Soviet Union had come into existence, Ireland had begun her post-1916 history, 4 empires had come to the point of collapse, Emma Goldman had been imprisoned for opposing the draft in the USA, WMD had been invented, the Tank had been invented, and H1N1 "the spanish flu" had just turned pandemic.

flu would kill a further 25 million people in 6 months.

A multiplicity of religious cults would flourish from the same psychological soil that gave the world, the jehova's witnesses "the world began to end 1914", numerous cults of Mary, and the bolshevik cult of science, fascism and nazism were only a decade away.

If the Great War had not happened, there is very little reason to believe you would have any of your most basic or cherished "rights" or face any of the global evil you do now. It really was supposed to be the war to end all wars. & until you understand what it really did to the men and women who lived through it, you won't understand why they made such a bad job of what followed.
I've put a selection of poems by men who fought in the trenches from both sides and of those others who avoided death by staying at home in the starving, fetid, disease ridden slum cities at http://iosaf.allotherplaces.org
* (the treaty like the meeting in Compiègne was rushed, and no records were kept except for hearsay, it was rumoured that the typewritten copies of the treaty were duplicated badly, and the last pages of the document as signed that day, were gibberish http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armistice_with_Germany_(Compiègne) and that one state was left off the list of allies.)

those who died for Czar, King Emperor, Republic, Commonwealth, Ulster, Mr Redmond or America.

Those who died for Kaiser, Emperor, King or Caliph.

by io Fri Nov 11, 2005 16:26

"In August 1914, Admiral Charles Fitzgerald founded the Order of the White Feather. With the support of leading writers such as Mary Ward and Emma Orczy, the organisation encouraged women to give out white feathers to young men who had not joined the British Army. One young woman remembers her father, Robert Smith, being given a feather on his way home from work: "That night he came home and cried his heart out. My father was no coward, but had been reluctant to leave his family. He was thirty-four and my mother, who had two young children, had been suffering from a serious illness. Soon after this incident my father joined the army."

The government became concerned when women began presenting state employees with white feathers. It was suggested to Reginald McKenna, the Home Secretary, that these women should be arrested for "conduct likely to disrupt the police". McKenna refused but he did arrange for state employees to be issued with badges testifying that they were serving 'King and Country'.

Although he was a serving soldier, the writer, Compton Mackenzie, complained about the activities of the Order of the White Feather. He argued that these "idiotic young women were using white feathers to get rid of boyfriends of whom they were tired". The pacifist, Fenner Brockway, claimed that he received so many white feathers he had enough to make a fan."
from http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk

The white feather is said by some to date back to a 1775 incident between american indians and quaker (pacifist society of friends) colonists in america
http://www.ppu.org.uk/poppy/new/tx_feather.html

from 1914 onwards, women with no right to vote gave men these for not rushing off to die.

by iosaf Fri Nov 11, 2005 16:50

Between 16,000 and 17,000 men refused the conscription draft which was introduced in Britain (england and wales) in 1916. The "derby scheme" had seen 3 million men volunteer for the trenches in the previous 2 years.
Of these at least 1,500 were court-martialled. There were really only two options - death by firing squad or ten year penal service.
The "no-conscription fellowship" had in 1914 become the first objection group in history, one of its founders the mathematician and philosopher Bertrand Russell would later found CND and design its symbol in 1958. Bertrand Russell was imprisoned after taking part in a CND rally in 1961, some 47 years after he had protested the war machine.
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWncf.htm
http://www.wcml.org.uk/group/ncf.htm
One of his admirers the 82 year old, Walter Wolfgang (current vice president of CND and Stop the War! coalition steering member) was removed from the New Labour party conference this september for heckling Blair on the Iraq war.
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=72237

__________________________________________

The pensions office set up by the British Empire in 1920 to value lost limbs or "insanity" caused to those who had fought for King and Country, operated a fractioned percentage scale.
If an officer had lost 60 hundreths of his able body he or his next of kin were due the sum of £85 subject to income tax (then a novelty) deductable at source over a period of 7 years, and his worth to future wars reduced to "C2" status.
A non-commissioned officer was entitled to less than 75% of that financial value, a soldier, private, walking body bag, tommy, mick, hun, fritz, ivan
got between £6 and £14 per annum.

A special commission oversaw the payment of British Imperial War widow pensions and disablity allowances to the citizens of the Irish Free State from 1923 onwards.

by iosaf tootle too! - its vespers Fri Nov 11, 2005 18:26

who received imperial war pensions or disability allowances subject to income tax within the Irish Free State and thereafter Eire and at source were finally laid to rest "bits missing" in an irish tricolour.

That's a special honour.
unknown soldier and all that.
+

I'm being ironic

by iosaf Fri Nov 11, 2005 19:05

Francis Ledgewedge was born in Slane, County Meath, Ireland, 19 August 1887.
He was killed on 31 July 1917 on the opening day of the third Battle of Ypres.
He had been one of the founding members of the Slane branch of the Meath Labour Union. He Served with 5th Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers in the Dardanelles in August 1915 to December 1915, when he got away from the trenches to a hospital in Manchester where he heard of the April 1916 rising,and the death of his friend and fellow poet the signatory of the proclamation Thomas MacDonagh.
he wrote this:-

He shall not hear the bittern cry
In the wild sky where he is lain
Nor voices of the sweeter birds
Above the wailing of the rain.

Nor shall he know when loud March blows
Thro' slanting snows her fanfare shrill
Blowing to flame the golden cup
Of many an upset daffodil.

And when the dark cow leaves the moor
And pastures poor with greedy weeds
Perhaps he'll hear her low at morn
Lifting her horn in pleasant meads.

After which he was court-martialled and stripped of his rank in May for overstaying his leave and insubordination. He spent 7 months in penal custody in Derry.
That done, & he a better man for the punishment in the eyes of his superiors, he went back to the front where he died on teh first day of the battle of Battle of Passchendaele better known as "Ypres version 3" Half a year later approximately 250,000 men serving the Kaiser, 300,000 for the British Empire (of whom 36,500 were Australians) had been slaughtered in the mud. No more than 3 km of which had changed side.

90,000 "British" and Australian bodies were never identified, and 42,000 were never recovered. An aerial photograph of Passchendaele taken after the battle showed over half a million shell holes in one half square mile (1.3 km²) area.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Battle_of_Ypres

by Booms Sat Nov 12, 2005 09:54

I think this is all a bit hard on Google. If you check Ireland on Google Earth they've actually re-partioned the island and given Derry Cityside to the South. No complaints so far on that little move.

Derry on Goolge Earth

by Eoin Harass Sun Nov 13, 2005 15:41

The dead who died for Ireland did so on the barbed wire of Gallipoli and in the mud of Flanders fields. And yes they did fight for the freedom of small nations, including their own beloved motherland. To now besmirch their name because of some mistaken Provo fascist ideology is unconscionable. The freedoms we Irish now enjoy, including due process, constitutional law, parliamentary democracy, came to us from England and we should honour and respect that fact. Instead of commemorating the blood sacrifice of 1916, and thus promoting the death cult of Provo fascism, we should have an Irish constitutional day, celebrating our British heritage and proudly fly the Union Jack. Britain did spread democracy and liberty throughout the world as she is now assuredly doing so in Iraq.
Friends and comrades, the pro-German Connolly was wrong. He did Irish socialism a grave disservice by joining the green fanatical fascist, Pearse, on that Easter Monday long ago. And we are still reaping the whirlwind of that fatal mistake. So let us honour those who really did liberate Ireland from its obscurantism and Catholic backwardness and proudly fly the liberator's flag-the Union Jack.

by P O Neil - Computers Mon Nov 14, 2005 15:03 poneil at hotmail dot com

Dont know if ye realise this but there was already a concerted email campaign up and running early on Friday to have the poppy removed.

Im living in the UK and I even got the email and forwarded it on.

Here were the contents:

===================================

To every respecting Irish person!

We have all done this before when voting on BBC's website for "A Nation Once Again"
and the name of the bridge into wembley as "Roy Keane bridge".Now once again we have to make our collective Irish Voice heard.

You may have noticed that if you visit www.google.ie today the googlelogo now contains a poppy in memory of the british army!!!!
and doesnt appear on any other google homepage except www.google.co.uk. Would the french be happy if it was on www.google.fr?

It has been suggested that every Irish person ask this logo to be removed by sending a complaint email by just clicking on the link below

[email protected]
sh%20person%20will%20boycott%20it%20for%20www.yahoo.com

All you have to do is hit send!

Slainte!

==================================

I take it that the inrush of thousands of emails was the main reason for the Poppy dissapearing.

by Duine Mon Nov 14, 2005 15:22

Á bhal, ar a laghad, bhain an tSeirb a neamhspléachas amach!!!

by dave rosson Tue Nov 15, 2005 16:56 Co Wicklow, Ireland

Shame how the Irish have a problem with wearing the poppy but no problem with wearing ENGLISH PREMIER LEAGUE football jerseys!!!!

by Duine Tue Nov 15, 2005 17:43

A dhave, cá bhfuil an náire?

by R. Isible Tue Nov 15, 2005 17:53

Yes, the english Football teams have a long and terrible history of colonial occupation of other people's countries.

by left-winger Tue Nov 15, 2005 18:15

They certainly have a terrible history of being hammered regularly.

by BRéNOC Tue Nov 15, 2005 18:38

What about The Panel comedy review on RTE, Monday evenings. It too surely deserves a bit of our unspent rage. Yesterday's show was so west british I wonder why they even bother recording it in Ireland.
The stories they commented on were almost exclusively british, the guest list was like that of a generic brit chat show and as for the "comedians", the majority fly in for the recording and immediately return to britland after filming.
Yet RTE insists on referring to it as an Irish show!

BRéNOC

by Duine Tue Nov 15, 2005 18:41

B'fhéidir

by Anne Hetherington Wed Nov 16, 2005 15:50 anne73 at gmail dot com

The Poppy is a symbol of the people who lost their lives on the fields of flanders in the first world war as poppies grew wild there. It has been adopted as a symbol of rememberance sunday not specifically the british legion. My father is a veteran of the second world war, 1st battallion irish guards, as is his brother, and attended the rememberance service in dublin last sunday.
I am against all violent conflict, particularly the the ones currently happening in the middle east, but I am sick and tired of the distain and disrespect the veterans of all wars are treated with by so called socialists( which I consider myself to be). Soldiers don't create wars, politicans and capitalists do. This may sound simplistic, obvious and naive, but it seems to need saying. Disrespecting the memory of 18 year olds that died violently, miles from home 80 odd years ago,no matter how misguided, is reprehensible.
Aim your anger at the politicans who sent these people to their deaths, and Messers Bush, Blair etc that are continuing the fine tradition.

by pat c Wed Nov 16, 2005 15:53

i am not disrespecting those who died. i remember the 18 yr old from ireland, england, germany, russia. i do this by wearing a White Peace Poppy.

The Red Poppy is a symbol of British Imperialism, the money raised goes to the British Legion. They pass it on to exservicemen/women in distress. the money given for a red poppy could go to the paras who carried out the Bloody Sunday Massacre.

by Derek Thu Nov 17, 2005 22:53

The poppy is used as a symbol because the men fighting in WW1 picked the flowers and wore them in thier breast pockets as they marched across the fields towards thier almost certain death. It is also symbolic of the blood spilt. It is not imperialist or any of the other shit you are all saying. if you have an issue with remembering IRA dead or people killed in the troubles then you are free to take that issue up as you wish, but why attempt to tag it on to something else. One thing I have always noticed growing up in Northern Ireland is how people see or hear certain things and then react instinctively in the way they were brain washed to react as they were growing up. So many people need to learn to disconnect the world around them from the biggorty inside them.
It is so strange how when a comment is made someone always gets defensive and answers with an attack which is answered with a counter attack. Something like: "the people you support did (insert a wildly inacurate and condensed and highly politicised account of a violent action here)" " thats rich, the people you support did (insert a wildly inacurate and condensed and highly politicised violent account of a action here)" and round and round we go.
The argument ends up becomming something like, its OK that the IRA blew innocent people to pieces because the Brits are bombing civilians in Baghdad. Youre all not even making sense, just running to your preprogrammed thought bunkers to attack each other.
I was brought up in a protestant unionist family (note past tense here, this does not mean that I am a protestant unionist, I do have the ability to choose my own political and religious beliefs!) and for me and everyone I knew the main message the poppy carried was one of the horrors and futillity of war. A message to resist and prevent conflict. The horrors of the great war, where soldiers on thier way to the trenches marched past the mass graves that were being dug to put them in, must be one of the greatest advertisement for peace the world could ever have.
Some of the people posting here are the kind of people who start wars! You disgust me!

by pat c Fri Nov 18, 2005 10:59

this thread has nothing to do with the ira. despite your over long piece the fact remains that the vast majority of Irish people see the Red Poppy as a symbol of British Imperialism. Money raised from the sale of Red Poppies go to retired service personnel. this includes those who served in colonial wars including the North.

You have some neck having a go at the IRA, the Red Poppy commemorates all British military who fought and died in the 20th & 21st centuries. This includes India, Malaya, Kenya, Cyprus Aden and Irland. The numbers kiled by the IRA pales in comparison to the millions slaughtered by British Imperialism.

Wear a White Peace Poppy. Dont glorify imperialism.

by very curious Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:06

this year mr Pat C???

by Aine Mcardle Sat Nov 19, 2005 01:24 ainemcardle at hotmail dot com Waterford

This red poppy should not have been allowed to be placed on www.google.ie. It should have been a green poppy instead honouring all those who have died in the wars this country (Ireland) has fought for its independence. Some quite disturbing comments above defending the use of the red poppy are a reminder of the forgotten legacy of those who have died for this very nation.

by Derek Sat Nov 19, 2005 17:08

Wow. You really missed my point! Did you actually read my comment or just see a few word that flicked your tribal switches? At what point did I have a go at the IRA? I didnt. I was giving an exagerated version of some of the arguments people were having about this issue. You went and did exactly the thing I was talking about. You just made assumptions and reacted aggressively. I tried to maybe help some people understand what the poppy really means to a lot of people, and you responded by attacking the british army and defending the IRA. My comments could just as easily be read the other way round. You assume that I support British military action and imperialism, well I DONT, fuck the british army!, is that clear enough for you. The whole world dosent exist in polar opposites!
I never said this issue had anything to do with the IRA, I was comenting on other people who had brought them into it and raised that whole protestant catholic argument.
I didnt say anything that would deserve such an aggressive reply.
I wanted to exlpain how people so often take certain symbols and even words as belonging to "the other side" and react in thier preprogramed way instead of standing back and looking at things with a little bit of thought and intelligence.
I also never said that the poppy should have been on google.ie.
And if I want to make a comment I will take the time and space i need to explain myself and say it right. Whats wrong with that?

Its people like you who keep the conflict in Ireland alive. Thats the kind of attitude that breeds hate and keeps fascist attitudes alive in the world. Pat you need to learn more.

by pat c Sat Nov 19, 2005 18:20

"The poppy is used as a symbol because the men fighting in WW1 picked the flowers and wore them in thier breast pockets as they marched across the fields towards thier almost certain death. It is also symbolic of the blood spilt. It is not imperialist "

you posted the lines above. thats why i responded. i consider the red poppy to be a symbol of imperialism. i have already given my reasons for thinking that. thats why i wear a white poppy.

and to vcurious yes i did wear a white poppy this year to remember the irish, british, german, turkish, russian, austrian dead.

by paddy o'c - irishman in the british army Fri Dec 08, 2006 18:07

There really is some purile pathetic rants going on here ,If you don't want to wear a poppy then don't........
Just remember it commemerates all those who have fought in the empire/commonwealth forces since ww1 ,How many irishmen died on the western front ? At Normandy and for that matter for all you anti paras Arnhem........
Remember your country men who have died for others and lets face it do you really think hitler would have stopped at the newry border ,sat in the brass monkey and had a pint ?
Lets face it germans have no problem in comemerating their war dead alongside brits do they ?
I am irish I serve as a professional soldier in the british army I have seen what that army has achieved on humanitarian efforts,Lets face it ireland was quite happy to let the Royal navy evacuate its citizens from every hotspot in the world at time of crisis did they see the irish as different to it's own citizens ? I can tell you no is the answer I was in sierra leone evacuating british and irish citizens ,that is what neighbours do, they help each other...........
,I have seen what the IRA evil can do and what the UVF bigotry can cause let me tell you it's not soldiers who kill ,it's people being brought up with a hatred for their neighbour.
You don't have to be british to benefit from the legion it is a charity which looks after it's own which includes the irish like me who have served in the british forces.
As for loyalists wearing a poppy ..........
I was a para at drumcree we are not their army.........

by Sharon . - Individual . Fri Dec 08, 2006 21:32

" I was a para at drumcree we are not their army......... "

The above quote is perhaps the most telling statement in your post , 'paddy o'c ' - does it salve your conscience to write about your 'career' ?
Does it help you to repeat the above post in your mind as the last thing you do as your head rests on your pillow ?
You are troubled , Sir . As well you should be .

Sharon .

by in vino veritas Sat Dec 09, 2006 17:42

"The last sixteenth months have been the most glorious in the history of Europe. Heroism has come back to the earth. It is good for the world that such things should be done. The old heart of the earth needed to be warmed with the red wine of the battlefield. Such august homage was never before offered to God as this, the homage of millions of lives given gladly for love of country. "

Not a mention there of "imperialism" or any of that kind of disparaging talk ... no siree .....

by pat c Sun Dec 10, 2006 18:21

millions were sent to die by imperialism. the local recruiting sergeant for the BRitish, John Redmond, ensured that tens of thousands of irishmen died in an imperialist folly.

by in vino semper veritas Sun Dec 10, 2006 20:32

Correct me if my historical memory is failing, but I seem to remember learning in the Free State Hedge school many years ago that there was NO CONSCRIPTION in Ireland during the Great War ===> ERGO THOSE WHO WENT TO THE MUDDY FIELDS OF FLANDERS AND ELSEWHERE WERE VOLUNTEERS ....

Ever heard of a chappie called Tom Barry ? Started off his soldiering days as a Tommy out in Mesopotamia ...
http://www.s9.com/Biography/Barry-Thomas

Note that he ENLISTED (i.e. was not CONSCRIPTED) in the British Army. If I recall correctly from his autobiography Guerilla Days in Ireland, he considered it to be a bit of adventure, a jolly jape ... he certainly wasn't forced to go.

by pat c Sun Dec 10, 2006 20:42

Most of those who "volunteered" were fooled by Redmond into doing so. He told them they were fighting for the freedom of small nations. Their blood is on his hands.

Others were economic conscripts. Tom Barry was one of those. Barry made good use of his training.

by the wineful truth Sun Dec 10, 2006 20:43

And what about the tens of thousands of non-Irish ? Ireland was and is only a farty little footnote in the history of Europe in general and the Great War in particular.

Just for the record - and in case you weren't aware - the German Socialists (SPD) voted in favour of the war. Without their support the German Kaiser couldn't have arranged the finances necessary to proceed with mobilisation for war.

So how about a few tears in memory of all the German victims of the socialist recruiting sergeants for Prussian imperialism ....
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/aug2004/spdd-a06.shtml

by its true Sun Dec 10, 2006 20:46

and they broke Luxemburg's heart- then the facist pre-hitlerians broke her head
and dumped her body.

anti-war is anti-war.

is everyone pissed tonight??????????????/

by pat c Sun Dec 10, 2006 21:00

if you bothered to scroll back up you would have seen the following comment by me:

"and to vcurious yes i did wear a white poppy this year to remember the irish, british, german, turkish, russian, austrian dead."

Why bring up what the German Social Democrats did? I'm not responsible for them anymore than I'm responsible for the British Labour Party which also supported the imperialist war.

by Jacqueline Fallon Sun Dec 10, 2006 21:49

It was very foolish of Google to have ever placed the symbol of the Poppy on the Irish site and in doing so, insulted so many Irish people. The Poppy has absolutely no relevance to Ireland and is not an Irish symbol. The Poppy is nothing but a symbol of British imperialism and a dreadful reminder to the Irish of the gross atrocities perpetrated by the British Army on the Irish people.

I do not find any consolation in their explanation that the reason that the offending Poppy appeared on the Irish site was technical, "that the Irish site is linked to the 'UK' site" - I wonder will they put the Easter Lily up at Easter on the Irish site and, "as the Irish site is linked to the 'UK' site", will the Easter Lily appear on the British site as well?

Thankfully, Google did take the offending Poppy down when it realised its mistake and that is good news indeed - good riddance!

Slán anois!

by Sharon . - Individual. Sun Dec 10, 2006 23:17

Hi Jacqueline !

Well said : I was one of , I hope (!) , the many , who contacted Google regarding their display of the poppy on their Irish site - I asked would they be as quick to display the Easter Lily at the appropriate time and am still waiting for the promised reply !

I fully intend to chase them re same between this and Easter .

Sharon .

by Jacqueline Fallon Mon Dec 11, 2006 01:54

A Sharon, a chara,

Maith thú! I will be contacting them myself also. It would be fantastic if everyone would contact Google in the run-up to Easter about getting them to put up an Easter Lily on the Irish site to commemorate all those Irish people who died, or were brutalised and/or shot by the British Army in internment camps around Ireland, and all those courageous Irish people who suffered in a multitude of ways at the hands of the British Army and all Irish people who have dedicated their whole lives to the pursuit of breaking the link with British imperialism.

With regard to other contributors who suggested using a different coloured poppy for the Irish site, I'm not in favour of a copycat white or green, whatever colour you're having yourself poppy - a poppy is a poppy - we all know whose symbol it is and who claims it. The Poppy has no relevance at all to Ireland.

by Fred Johnston Mon Dec 11, 2006 19:59 sylfredcar at iolfree dot ie

I had relatives, Irishmen, who fought in the Great War. Two of them I knew as a young teenager: one of these was mentally broken by his experiences, which did not leave him even in very old age. My experience would be common to a great many Irish families, North and South. We insult their memory, and, indeed, the history of the many Irish families from whence they came, if we neglect their sacrifice or punish their memory by refusing, in some silly, neolithic manner, to acknowledge the poppy as their symbol. I would suggest that close to a hundred percent of those who write in here and lambast Irishmen for having joined the British Army, in the Great War, the Second World War and even more recently, have little knowledge of their own history - and none of, for instance, poverty, which drives men to armies quicker than the rhetoric of politicians. We are in a new age - one wouldn't think so to read some of the above comments. Few of those writing in, I suspect, will understand that many of our major towns and cities had proud traditions (as Dublin had, and Galway, for instance) of their men joining both the British Army and Navy. I can only imagine the sort of comment that THIS comment will attract. For shame, youngsters! You who cower behind made-up names cannot know what it must have been like to cower, terrified, in a trench. But you would love a tour of the graveyards of Ypes, for instance, where so many of the tombstones celebrating the dead of the Great War are also anonymous, containing only the inscription: 'Unknown - A Soldier of the Great War.' For them, anonymity was not the result of cowardice.

by Dave Walker Mon Dec 11, 2006 20:30

When have you ever cowered in a trench, Mr Johnson?
You don't know what you'r talking about.
WW 1 was a huge wrong inflicted on the working classes of Europe by their imperial masters. Poppy day uncritically celebrates this wrong as 'a sacrifice worth making'. That is why we object to it.

by Sharon . - Individual . Mon Dec 11, 2006 23:13

Mr. Johnston ,

Your post seems to indicate that you are of the opinion that those of us opposed to the wearing of the poppy on this isle somehow doubt the numbers of those that died in the conflicts you mentioned , and/or that we do not believe that the conditions they endured were as bad as others say they were . I do not believe that to be the case .

Speaking on my own behalf , I am opposed to the so-called 'cause' for which they were led to their slaughter , and opposed to the self-evident so-called 'moral superiority' of the political gangsters that led those men to their doom .
If you , Sir , see merit in the actions of those political gangsters and that which they represented , then wear the poppy if you wish . For political reasons I have chosen not to 'honour' imperialism , past or present and , whilst I do not expect you to agree with my decision , I would ask that you at least respect that decision .

Go raibh maith agat ,

Sharon .

by in vino veritas Tue Dec 12, 2006 09:15

.. I shall wear a red poppy as an act of homage to Padraig H. Pearse and the red wine of the battlefield which warms the old heart of the earth:
"The last sixteenth months have been the most glorious in the history of Europe. Heroism has come back to the earth. It is good for the world that such things should be done. The old heart of the earth needed to be warmed with the red wine of the battlefield. Such august homage was never before offered to God as this, the homage of millions of lives given gladly for love of country."

by Sharon . - Individual . Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:08

Hi 'in vino veritas' !

" .. I shall wear a red poppy as an act of homage to Padraig H. Pearse..."

And no doubt you will also were an Easter Lily "in homage" to the same man .
Just try and remember to remove one before fixing the other in place !

Sharon .

by Fred Johnston Tue Dec 12, 2006 16:07 sylfredcar at iolfree dot ie

Dave Walker and 'Sharon' seem deliberately to dance around every point I make - nice one, folks. If you can't argue against a point, don't engage with it; that seems to be the policy. That childish quip about my not having been in a trench . . . God Lord, so puerile. As for Pearse, it is recorded that he was not such a hero in the Post Office as we all might like to expect, and was militarily useless - he who had exhorted others to shed their blood for an uprising few supported, but let's not let the truth get in the way of a good yarn. The real hero of that event was Connolly, beyond doubt. You attack imperialism as if some ordinary British Army squaddie made it up all by himself and was responsible for it. Oh, I just couldn't be bothered . . . . it's like debating with a brick wall.

by Dave Walker Tue Dec 12, 2006 17:00

Would Johnson support similar commemorations for those Irish and Irish-American soldiers, members of the US and British Armed forces, who died in conflicts such as Vietnam and Iraq?

Or is it a case of 'War in Iraq BAD!, First World War nice cuddly war'.

Sounds like he's trying to pitch himself as a poor man's Myers.

by Sharon . - Individual . Tue Dec 12, 2006 18:55

Mr. 'Fred Johnson' -

" Dave Walker and 'Sharon' seem deliberately to dance around every point I make - nice one, folks. If you can't argue against a point, don't engage with it; that seems to be the policy. "
Your point , 'Mr Johnson' , was in regards to the poppy , as were the replies to your point which you have now dismissed out of hand without a rebuttal . Indeed , you have now changed the subject from that of the poppy to that of the 1916 Easter Rising ! "Don't engage" seems to be your rule of thumb .

" As for Pearse, it is recorded that he was not such a hero in the Post Office as we all might like to expect, and was militarily useless - he who had exhorted others to shed their blood for an uprising few supported, but let's not let the truth get in the way of a good yarn. The real hero of that event was Connolly, beyond doubt. "
The "good yarn" , 'Mr Johnson' , is that of the Rising itself , not the 'heroism' of each individual involved in same . But then again , perhaps I am just not petty enough .

" You attack imperialism as if some ordinary British Army squaddie made it up all by himself and was responsible for it. "
You are attempting to address an issue which was never made or insinuated , and that is because you are obviously unable to stand over the issues you did raise . You are a blow-hard time waster , 'Mr Johnson' .

"Oh, I just couldn't be bothered . . . . it's like debating with a brick wall."
It's debating with those that have a forum which allows them to reply to your weak political point of view that is your real problem , Sir . And I suspect by your "couldn't be bothered" parting shot that you are now aware that you are out of your depth .
You and your poppy should stay on the shore .

Sharon .

by Fred Johnston Tue Dec 12, 2006 19:08 sylfredcar at iolfree dot ie

What ARE you jabbering about, lass? WHAT 'shore'??? I cannot argue with open prejudice, that is my point; there is no value in it. If you think that all Irishmen who served in the British Army in the Great War and after are 'traitors' of some kind, there is nothing in the world will dissuade you from this. No amount of logic, history, common sense . . . . .there is no 'argument' to lose. Men died, thousands of them, Irishmen all, and those who came back from the carnage were shamefully treated by those who'd stayed at home. They are still being shamefully treated - by old-fashioned prejudice and wrap-the-green-flag-round-me nationalism as outdated and irrelevant to the 21st century Ireland we live in as a Wolfe Tone's song. I can't help you with that.

by Sharon . - Individual . Tue Dec 12, 2006 20:12

" I cannot argue with open prejudice, that is my point; there is no value in it. "
There is no proper "value" , Sir , in your attempt to rationalise , or pay homage to , a war brought about by imperialistic politics in which thousands of Irish people (and an estimated 10 million others) died , all of whom were victims of evil and morally corrupt empires .

" If you think that all Irishmen who served in the British Army in the Great War and after are 'traitors' of some kind, there is nothing in the world will dissuade you from this. No amount of logic, history, common sense . . . . .there is no 'argument' to lose. "
There is the 'argument' of whether those that were led to their slaughter died in a just war or a 'power play' without proper cause , honour and/or justification . You do not even recognise that possibility .

"Men died, thousands of them, Irishmen all, and those who came back from the carnage were shamefully treated by those who'd stayed at home. They are still being shamefully treated - by old-fashioned prejudice and wrap-the-green-flag-round-me nationalism as outdated and irrelevant to the 21st century Ireland we live in as a Wolfe Tone's song. I can't help you with that."
....and you will find that you are unable to "help" anyone , 'Mr. Johnson' , until such time as you "help" yourself to a better understanding of those responsible for the despicable slaughter you seek to honour .

Sharon .

by Fred Johnston Wed Dec 13, 2006 15:53 sylfredcar at iolfree dot ie

Sharon - you seem to be able without a blush to avoid the very kernel of an argument, so I suspect you'd be good at politics. This is not about imperialism or who started what, but you know that. It's about ordinary Irishmen, and you know that too; somehow, not having a response to the human tragedy in all of this and being unable to remove yourself from under your current intractable mindset, you have dodged these issues. Now that's what one cannot argue against, a sort of intellectual blindness; you are hardly the only one whom I've encountered who suffers from it. And we live in a morally-mangled age, when a ridiculous figure such as David Beckham can be labelled a 'hero,' and we have such as yourself attacking ordinary Irishmen as lackeys of imperialism because they went and fought for something they believed in, the freedom of nations as they saw it, and out of poverty and despair very often too. Not only do you not understand your history - you appear not to know it. How nimbly, too, you skipped my remarks about the cities of Dublin and Galway! You'd make a lovely dancer, I've no doubt.

by Caobhin Wed Dec 13, 2006 16:33

Galway and Dublin did not have a "proud tradition" of joining the brit army and navy - it is a shameful part of "british" history.

The economic and political dedregation of Ireland during the colonial period indeed saw many taking the shilling to avoid the hopeless prospects at home. At least credit them with the intelligence to have been aware of the hypocrisy that they were fighting for "freedom of small nations" -it was desperation or at best the naive belief in home rule that were the main recruiters.

Maudlin laments over our lost young boys should just be that - their lives were thrown away in a murderous criminal waste do not dishonour them further by justifying the pinning of an enblem of british imperialism on their memory.

BTW I wonder how many German/Turkish/Austrian/Hungarian/Bulgarian teenagers did the 40,00-50,000 Irishmen who died in WW1 kill?

by Sharon . - Individual . Wed Dec 13, 2006 16:46

Hi Mr Johnston !

" This is not about imperialism ..."
To you , anyway , Sir , that appears to be the case . Bully-boy Empires 'throwing shapes' at each other and , by their (mis)use of economics and propaganda , encouraging their citizens to take up arms against citizens of other countries . Those poor people died for nothing on the fields of Flanders and elsewhere . What a waste.

" Not only do you not understand your history - you appear not to know it."
This from the man who believes that "the freedom of nations" was the cause of the savage butchery we are discussing here . Your 'Empire' must be proud of you , Sir .

For what it's worth , Mr Johnston , I agree with you regarding your comments on David Beckham , but do you not realise how close to false 'hero-worshipping' you are yourself ?

Sharon .

by Confused Wed Dec 13, 2006 20:02

Im Irish, married to a decent and sympathetic English man. His grandfather spent three days, seriously injured, lying in a battlefield in France while the battle line raged backwards and forwards accross him. That and other experiences of WW1destroyed him for life. He was 19 when he went to war and had no notion whatsoever that in doing so he was offending Irish sensibilities - he was just an ordinary working class English guy - typical cannon fodder - an expendable life - and caught up in the twin evils of a pervasive jingoism and social pressure to do the 'manful thing'. Down all the
years I lived in the UK, it was clear that the majority of English people understand well that WW1 was an unconscionable crime against humanity on all sides, that the rationale for it was shocking and senseless and that for all of those reasons, the poppy day commemoration is important to them (they lost huge numbers of people too, remember) not as a celebration of imperialism but as a commemoration of all the life that was so casually spent by an arrogant European aristocracy. Yes, the British establishment still tries to dress the occasion up in a threadbare justification for what it did to so many people, but that's just a pathetic charade. Poppy day is important to all the millions of people who died on all sides. The white poppy is a powerful symbol of resistance and objection to the militaristic version of events - undermining its symbolism at source. Not all things British are evil.

by Sharon . - Individual . Wed Dec 13, 2006 23:17

Hi !

" Im Irish, married to a decent and sympathetic English man. His grandfather spent three days, seriously injured, lying in a battlefield in France while the battle line raged backwards and forwards accross him. That and other experiences of WW1destroyed him for life. "

The poor man - to go through so much for so little , encouraged , as were millions of others , to do so by what you correctly , I believe , describe as "the twin evils of a pervasive jingoism and social pressure to do the 'manful thing'. " And economic reasons too , no doubt . But those factors do not make it a just war , which is what I was trying to explain to a previous poster .

" He was 19 when he went to war and had no notion whatsoever that in doing so he was offending Irish sensibilities "
Those used as "cannon fodder " ("expendable lives" , in your own words) do not receive training in how to focus on the "sensibilities" of their 'enemy' . That is a social skill which they must learn for themselves . I can only hope that I have not offended your sensibilities in pointing that out to you .

" Down all the
years I lived in the UK, it was clear that the majority of English people understand well that WW1 was an unconscionable crime against humanity on all sides, that the rationale for it was shocking and senseless and that for all of those reasons, the poppy day commemoration is important to them (they lost huge numbers of people too, remember) "
......and they were the cause of the loss of huge numbers , too , as you say .
Going on 'what you understand' , I await a charge of 'War Crime' to be brought by "the majority of English people" against their own parliament for involving them in the 'war effort' on the grounds of , at least , involving them in a war which was " an unconscionable crime against humanity ..." , a " shocking and senseless " act of violence .

" not as a celebration of imperialism but as a commemoration of all the life that was so casually spent by an arrogant European aristocracy. "
And so " casually spent " by that 'aristocracy' in the pursuit of expanding imperialism .

" Yes, the British establishment still tries to dress the occasion up in a threadbare justification for what it did to so many people, but that's just a pathetic charade. "
Agreed , but some people are still fooled by that "charade" .

" Poppy day is important to all the millions of people who died on all sides. "
Agreed , but let us also recognise that poppy day is offensive to those of us who understand the "charade " involved in commemorating " an unconscionable crime against humanity ..." .

" The white poppy is a powerful symbol of resistance and objection to the militaristic version of events - undermining its symbolism at source. "
Unfortunately for the poppy (of whatever colour) , it will always now be associated with what the 'establishment' blandly refer to as 'the Fallen' . Neither you nor I can change that fact .

" Not all things British are evil. "
Of course not . But we were not discussing " all things British " , were we ?

Sharon .

by Ian Jackson Fri Nov 02, 2007 23:58

Thousands of Irishmen Lost their lives in the First World War, Politics aside when the war started Ireland was a part of the United Kingdom these men have in my opinion earned the right to be commemorated by the Poppy

Irelands Lost sons are my brothers in arms and I will honour them

When I wear a poppy this November as i always do, I wear it to honour brave men who gave their lives for a cause no matter what their country

The Wild Geese shall return
and we'll welcome them home
So active, so armed, so flighty a flock
was never known to this land to come
Since the days of Prince Fionn the Mighty

Ian Jackson

by Bemused Sat Nov 03, 2007 04:07

And might as well sing something like Land of Hype and Glory too.

by Sharon . - Individual . Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:00

Hi Mr Jackson !

I think you were right to re-open this year-old thread , rather than begin a new one on this issue , as most of the 'for and against' positions are already covered here .

However , as I see it , the flaw in your above post is that it is not possible to put 'politics aside' in relation to the wearing of a poppy , no more than it would be possible (or desirable) to put 'politics aside' in the wearing of the Lily .

Sharon.

by kal-el Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:24

I have noticed that Google has taken on board the criticism it rightly deserved WRT putting the poppy on their home page. It is incandescent in its absence.

The decision to erect the offending flora was a lazy decision made by historically challenged marketing executives who lump Ireland in with the UK to fit their advertising and sales models. I do not think it was done deliberately or to stir up animosity. I was an erroneous call made out of ignorance which is common among the myopic American executive set.

Sharon's arguement above is succinctly put and one I have no difficulty with. The Great War was a murderous venture that destroyed 2 generations in an arm wrestle between two squabbling inbred members of the same family. The poppy is a celebration of that imperialist nonsense and praises them in equal measure. The Kaiser and the King should have their names drubbed by the history books and their descendants lambasted not celebrated.

by io Sat Nov 03, 2007 18:22

shite. Every year I promise to take up a collection, open a website & promote the Opium Poppy for peace or wear a white feather with pride or the best way to show your support a little tinfoil wrap lapel pin made of genuine Latin American silver . Oh yes. Great with the ideas me. Could have been in the Green party or Labour party so I could with the quality of my ideas. But do I have the follow-through?

Nope. & that's the difference. Learn from the losers. You'll be retired on the mediterranean coast with your Celtic Tiger off shore pile of bricks & insurance nestegg whilst I'll be a senior citizen shoplifter in some special geriatric prison unit complete with alzheimer's experimental volunteer private enteprise partnership FAS project.

Ah-. but who will be more useful to humanity in the greater scope of things?

Wear a Purple Opium Poppy for Peace I'll remember it for 2008. T-shirts. tie-in DVD's. Girl & Boy bands. Perhaps a guest appearance from a retired rock star.

by memento mori Sun Nov 04, 2007 12:44

My grand-uncle died in WWI at the Somme along with thousands of other young Irishmen.

My father whose Irish parents moved to the North of England to get work when my dad was a child fought in WWII (in the RAF). My uncle was killed in the same war.

I am rather proud that my dad (A member of the Irish Labour Party from his return to Ireland after the war until the day he died in 1988) and uncle fought against the Nazis when their compatriots back in Ireland sat on their smug safe asses while Britain fought for her life against fascism. I wear the poppy in their memory.

by Barry Sun Nov 04, 2007 17:35

sad and predictable anglophilia

by memento mori Sun Nov 04, 2007 19:27

Not sad anglophilia but bitter fact!,

In 1940, after the fall of France, Britain stood virtually alone against the Fascist juggernaught (the latter ably abetted by their Soviet pals in filleting Poland). Tens of thousands of Irishmen - many who had previously fought against Franco in Spain - served in the British forces. While the U-boat menace was threatening to snuff out this flickering candle of fredom and hope, the Republic turned its back as if there was some moral equivalency between Britain and the Nazis. For Britain it was truely her finest hour. For this country it was truely her most shameful. For the IRA whose attempts to collaborate with the Nazis was only foiled by the latter refusing to take them seriously, it was moral nemesis.

I am proud that my father and uncle were on the side of right. They have earned the right to be commemorated by us all. Had Britain been starved to death by the U-Boats, and had fallen, one thing is certain, the Nazis would have occupied this country too (and without much difficulty). No doubt they would have rewarded their IRA facilitators and their Fianna Fail pals by appointing them as the local Quislings/Vichyites to carry-out their bidding in rounding up Jews Socialists and other 'undesirables' in the Nazi scheme of things.

by memento mori Sun Nov 04, 2007 19:31

BTW, Barry,

People like my Dad and uncle saved your sad and predictable ass.

by Barry Sun Nov 04, 2007 20:21

occupation by foreigners ?

by Frank Sun Nov 04, 2007 23:26

Let's be honest here, the British didn't oppose Hitler because he was bad or fascist, but because his expansionism was a threat to their global interests. If Hitler had of confined himself geographically the British would have ignored his internal practices. A very Victorian concept.

by Barry Mon Nov 05, 2007 01:38

the mentality of these anglophiles is simply to worship the powerful while despising the weak , hence the very much evident disdain expressed for the majority of the Irish population in the above posts . Had Hitler won theyd be extolling the virtues of the 3rd reich today , thats their mentality .
And the people who saved the world from Hitler were the russians , not the British . The eastern front was were the real war was fought and won and where Hitlers armies were destroyed .

by War Monger Mon Nov 05, 2007 05:02

It is true that the fall of Hitler was assisted by the Russian Front, however what you fail to take into consideration is that the Russians were supplied and armed by Britian and her western allies.

Suggest you take into cosideration what the merchant navy Convoys to Russia that were escorted by the RN were about ?

by Cal Mon Nov 05, 2007 05:23

Most World War 11 movies we watch were made by British or American companies, so there is a bias in the portrayal of that war. For the record, about 55 million people perished in WW2. Twenty million who died were Soviet Union citizens, many civilians. The turning point in the war was Stalingrad in the autumn-winter of 1941-42, not D-Day in June 1944 as anglo-american cinematic and tabloid historiography continually alleges. British scholar Anthony Beevor's well-researched history entitled Stalingrad details the unimaginable brutality and suffering of that gruelling battle.

One of Churchill's stated war aims at the outbreak in September 1939 was "the defence of the British Empire". He repeated this war aim in several more speeches as the war continued. Ireland had fought succesfully to break away from that empire only 18 years previously and could not in logic support such a war aim. Incidentally, the liberation of the oppressed Jews of nazi Germany and elsewhere was never stated as a war aim. In fact the systematic liquidation of Jews - and gypsies, mental defectives, social democrats, Slavs, polish priests, homosexuals and political conservatives - was not widely known to the general public in free Europe and North America until after Russian and American troops first took control of the extermination camps in the spring of 1945. Some of these troops retched violently when they came upon the heaps of gassed corpses and the human ashes in the furnaces.

Auschwitcz and Treblinka are portrayed in anglo-american media as epitomising the evil of the nazi ideology. Which is fair comment. The atomic massacres perpetrated at Hiroshima and Nagasaki are not bestowed with any equal stigma.

We should be wary of simple moralising about WW2.

by memento mori Mon Nov 05, 2007 08:59

The PQ convoys to Murmansk didn't commence until after Hitler turned on his former Soviet allies in 1941. When the Soviets invaded Poland they did so entirely with their own homegrown armaments.

Incidentally, one of my neighbours is a man of 88 years who served as a merchant seaman on several of the Arctic convoys whicjh helped save the asses of the Soviets during the period between the Nazis over-running most of the industrial heartland of the USSR and the Soviets re-locating their arms-industry to the eastern marches. This man's brother was in the Irish Brigade in the earlier fight against Franco. Two fine Irishmen.

The British saved our smug asses in 1940. Ultimately the USSR defeated Nazi-Germany. But equally true,, the Western Allies who invaded France in 1944 and held Western Europe when the nazis capitulated, saved our asses from subjugation by the Soviet empire.

by Kal-el Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:31

Wrong again mate, US deployment and detonation of two atomic bombs incinerating hundreds of thousands in a millisecond halted any advancing ambition of the 'Soviet Empire' into western Europe. The Soviets knew they could not defeat such a weapon and knew the US had the will to use it. The Brits had nothing to do with it, they wouldn't have been able to do a thing in the face of a Soviet invasion.

Also the Russian made (designed and manufactured) T-34 - T34/85 tanks which could match any German Panzer up to the formidable Tiger smashed the Germans in the Eastern Front combined with ruthless Russian tactics and a seemingly endless supply of cannon fodder. None of this came from Britain.

If Britain had this bounty of supplies why did its very existance pivot on the North Atlantic Gravy Train from the US remaining open.

There is anglophilia at work here if people think Britain saved anyone from anyone during the war. They just happened to be on winning side in War Between Germany and Russia and the US and Japan. Germany and Japan had both inflicted crushing defeats on Britain making her virtually irrelevant which is why they switched their attention to the real threats to their objectives. The USSR and the United States.

Cost of participation for Britain post 1941 was the remainder of its empire which it duly surrendered in the face of imminent defeat at the hands of the Germans. It is why Britain was relegated to a second rate power after the war when it had been a super power just before it.

by Columb Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:53

Yes, it was two atomic weapons - weapons of massacre that killed everybody within the epicentre of the airbursts - that clinched World War II in the far east. Nothing to do with moral power, just sheer massacre of every living thing within the epicentre.
Once the principle of massacre was accepted as ethically ok, the gradual removal of other norms of western civilization followed during the following decades. What's left of western civilization is topsy-turvy.

by Noel Mon Nov 05, 2007 15:12

Without Britain's stand there would have been no Atlantic convoys.
The Nazis would have fought on one front and probably defeated the Soviets.

As for the moralising about Hiroshima and Nagasaki - those atomic bombs saved an estimated
10 million American and Japanese deaths, anticipated in Operation Downfall.

by Barry Mon Nov 05, 2007 19:05

Germany was defeated in the east by the time a second front had opened up . memento mori not only has a fixation with anglophilia and an anglocentric view of the world he expects other to get enthusiastic about , but an apparent fixation with peoples asses as well , being unable to make a post without reference to someone or others posterior . I suggest he sticks to comics such as " warlord " and "Battle" for his take on history and world affairs.
Or "Ass monthly" if he prefers .

by kal-el Mon Nov 05, 2007 19:09

Without the Atlantic Convoys there would have been no Britain full stop.

What the hell is it with revisionists and their complete failure to see the obvious?

by jesus Mon Nov 05, 2007 19:22

Please for my sake will you put a wee little shamrock on Google for March 17th 2008 because
people seem so desperately to want to cling to their collective pasts rather than confront the
issues which now face them. I would also accept a funny Leprechaun hat, a 'kiss me I am Irish'
Sticker or an Easter Lily to put the wind up Mr Paisley's Irish Arse.
With Warm and benevolent feelings,
Jesus H Christ.

by RICKY - ORANGE ORDER Mon Nov 05, 2007 19:37

More like Anglophobia. But for the help of Britain, Germany would easily have overran Russia. Blanket bombing of Germanys industrial might and the destruction of its war winning arsenal, by the RAF and the USAF made Russia the victors. T34- you must be joking.!
Ireland should thank God that while they skulked like cowards behind the wall of neutrality, Britain stood like a stonewall - the last bastion of freedom in Europe.

by kal-el Mon Nov 05, 2007 20:36

Well Ricky, you're in the Orange Order. It would be astonishing if you had any other take on the events of WWII.

But Catholics are in the service of Satan and the Pope is the Anti-Christ too according to you guys.

I'll stick to history books to inform me of how the War unfolded and who defeated who and how.

By the way, the RAF didn't engage in Heavy bombing of Germany until well after the second front was opened up. By then the Russians had halted the Germans at Stalingrad and where driving them back. Britain did next to nothing to secure that outcome no matter what come bible thumping lunatic told you.

Understanding reality is not Anglophobia.

by RICKY - ORANGE ORDER Mon Nov 05, 2007 21:54

Being told what to think by a raving lunatic sounds more like an attender at a SinnFein ArdFheis, not the lot of a free thinking Orange Order member. I too can make an informed opinion by doing my own research.
Stalingrad was a significant victory for the Russians but who was exerting huge pressure on the Nazis in North Africa at the same time - Devaleras Desert Rats- I think not!

by Columb Mon Nov 05, 2007 23:50

So an "estimated 10 million American and Japanese lives" were saved by the use of the atomic weapons of massacre at Hiroshima and Nagasaki? There are lies, darn lies and what Churchill called "terminological inexactitudes". Harry Truman became President of the USA after the death in office of the great FDR, and authorised the use of the new massacre weapons against Japanese cities. On three occasions before he died he offered different statistics to his interviewers about the number of American lives the bombs saved, multiplying the number each time. In other words he plucked numbers from the air.

Read Desmond Fennell's book (1996) Uncertain Dawn: Hiroshima and the beginning of postwestern civilization. It's the only book about the moral implications of Hiroshima by an Irish author.

by memento mori Tue Nov 06, 2007 18:30

The US group that was set up to plan the invasion of Japan estimated a minimum of 2 million US and Japanese deaths. Most of these would have been Japanese. This estimate was based on the experience of the US Marines in removing the Japanese from places like Saipan and Okinawa, and of course, Iwo Jima. They also factored in the tendency of the Japanese to murder their own civilians - men women and children - when faced with defeat. Okinawa was the prime example of that unpleasant characteristic of the Japanese war-time mentality. The estimate of US military casualties was anything up to 500K.

Naturally enough the prime US concern was for their own young men, and saving them from having to spend another year or more fighting a fanatical enemy that seemed to care little about its own military or civilian casualties, and who precipated the war in the Pacific by an act of treachery.

In the event, the atomic bombings did what they were designed to do. They ended the war. Even after Nagasaki, the Japanese Military wanted to fight on. It took the personal intervention of the Emperor to tilt the balance. It is fanciful to think that had the bombs not been dropped the Japanese would have meekly surrendered and a US invasion would have been avoided.

By the way, the best account of the moral and political decision-making which surrounded the decision to drop the bombs is contained in Richard Rhodes Pulizer Prize winning "The Making of the Atomic Bomb". This is a polemic-free account which allows the reader make up his or her own mind. It is also wonderfully written.

That is to digress from the topic. WWII was an existential event for human civilization. Britain and her people were on the right side in the conflict, whatever the motives of some of her leaders or however one considers the effectiveness of the part she played, and a third of a million of her people paid the ultimate price. It is absolutely no credit to the Republic or her people that she stood idly by. Had Britain succumbed to the U-Boat threat before the entry of the US into the war, and the development of sonar and the convoy system overcame that threat, we would have paid a terrible price. We would have first been occupied by the Nazis, and had they been eventually defeated, by the Soviets. It was the sacrifice of other peoples in other lands - including the British - that ensured my generation of Irish people grew up free. Those Irish people who fought with the allies (including merchant seamen who manned the liberty-ships) deserve our rememberance.

To be indifferent between the British and the Nazis, or to asume moral equivalence between Churchill's Britain and Hitler's Nazi Germany is to descend into moral imbecility.

by Sharon. - Individual . Tue Nov 06, 2007 21:10

Hi memento mori !

" It was the sacrifice of other peoples in other lands - including the British - that ensured my generation of Irish people grew up free. "

Did none of 'your generation' have addresses on the Six County-side of the imposed border , then... ?

Sharon.

by RICKY - ORANGE ORDER Tue Nov 06, 2007 21:28

Memento Mori has has hit the nail on the head.
The superb filming of the images captured in "World at war" testify to the horrific extremes that Japanese civilians,as well as millitary , would use before surrendering. You can only imagine the horrific toll that would have resulted due to a Japan mainland invasion by US troops.
Whether 2000000 lives OR 10000000 lives were saved by the two detonations is open to conjecture,what is not conjecture is the fact that many more lives were saved than those lost at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. This was certainly the best of the two options and the lesser evil by far.

by Columb Wed Nov 07, 2007 08:29

You sum up the moral justification of the atomic attacks thus: "Whether 2000000 lives OR 10000000 lives were saved by the two detonations is open to conjecture,what is not conjecture is the fact that many more lives were saved than those lost at Hiroshima and Nagasaki."

Firstly you are acknowledging a point I made about statistics and terminological inexactitudes. I stated that President Truman picked figures out of the air when, three times before he died peacefully, he changed the figures for how many lives were saved by Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Secondly, the moral justification for use of atomic weapons of massacre does not come from how many lives were subsequently saved. Atomic airbursts by their nature kill all living things within the epicenter of the explosion, regardless of whether the humans are civilians (in hospitals, schools, shops) or serving members of the Japanese defence forces. In dropping these bombs that make no distinction whatsoever the American bombers were breaking the old ethical rule entailed in the just war doctrine that non-combatants shall not be deliberately killed in war.

The other morally untenable aspect of these bombs was the radiation that spread way beyond the target epicenter, depending on wind force and direction, and spread fatal and genetically damaging illnesses that affected subsequent generations. Mustard gas attacks were condemned internationally after the end of WW1 because of the long term biological damage inflicted on combatants i.e. the means used went beyond defeating the enemy. Those who authorised use of atomic weapons knew from the desert tests in the early summer of 1945 that the radiation effects would be widespread in a way that gas attacks in WW1 could never have been - and they let the bombings happen despite serious warnings by Oppenheimer, Einstein and other scientists.

by memento mori Wed Nov 07, 2007 13:28

Einstein had no part in the making of the bombs or the decision to drop them. His only involvement was to put his signature to a petition to Rooseveldt to set up the bomb project.

Oppenheimer led the bomb project and supported the decision to drop the bombs.

by memento mori Wed Nov 07, 2007 20:08

To Columb,

The one test (of the plutonium implosion-bomb) took place at Alamorgordo in late July 1945. Contamination of the range downwind of the test was minimal. When Oppenheimer and groves inspected the detonation centre the following morning they wore nothing more than galoshes over their shoes as protection from the residual radiation.

The fire-bombing of Tokyo the preceding month killed more than either atomic-bombing. After the Nagasaki bomb on the 9th August, and before the surrender, Truman called a halt to further atomic bombing. The delivery of a third bomb to the Pacific theatre was halted on his orders. However, the conventional bombing of Japan was resumed until the final news of the Japanese capitulation came through Swtizerland three days later.

No-one considers the atomic-bombings a good thing. However, in the context of the brutality of WWII - started by the Nazis and Japanese - the atomic bombings were the lesser evil by far than another year or more of total-war and the inevitable carnage to the innocent (Japanese civilians and the young soldiers of the democracies whose task it would have been to invade the Japanese home-islands). In the end, the highest estimates of immediate and delayed deaths from the atomic-bombings never approached even the lowest estimates of civilian casualties in an Allied invasion of Japan. Anyhow, by 1945 there was little room for sentimentality in relation to the Fascist powers that had plunged the world into terrible and total war.

The Nazis and their Jap allies were not defeated by noble intentions (Chamberlan had already tried that) They were defeated by the determination of the wartime allies not to allow the Axis powers to prevail - and by the ultimate sacrifice of millions of young men who took up arms to defeat the greatest evil the world had ever faced, Can you imagine what would have been the fate of Europe and the World had the Allied nations taken the same position of neutrality as did the Republic of Ireland?

by Barry Wed Nov 07, 2007 23:21

The fact is the free state remained neutral and didnt participate . Thats what happened for very good , sound and understandable reasons .The British army has always been an instrument of oppression , occupation and murder in this country .Therefore any eejit running around Ireland wearing a symbol of British militarism is attempting to foist a foreign symbol upon us , one of deep controversy and highly offensive in the eyes of some . Highly embarassing in the eyes of others . Of no feckin interest whatsoever to most . Its not our poppy , its Britains , a foreign country. An Irish citizen sporting a British military emblem is at best an undignified laughing stock , Theyre welcome to their poppy . I dont expect them to wear an easter lily for one second . So grow up and show some decorum and dignity .

by pat c Thu Nov 08, 2007 14:52

Dont commemorate imperialism. Remember the working class people of all countries who died in the slaughter.

I wear the Peace Poppy to remember my two Great Uncles who died in Flanders and those who fell on the other side of the trenchs.

Peace Poppy

by Columb Thu Nov 08, 2007 16:55

This is a link to declassified US Government documents on the leadup to the use of atomic weapons of massacre on Hiroshima and Nagasaki: # www.dannen.com/decision/ index.html If there is any problem just key in "atom bomb decision" and you'll get the site.

While Oppenheimer didn't actually join his name to a petition by scientists asking the government not to use these bombs, the minutes of one committee meeting at Los Alamos shows that Oppenheimer had serious concerns about the devestation that would be caused. Another document contains an entry in President Truman's diary that indicates he knew the scale of civilian deaths the bombs could cause.

I am pleased to see an illustration of the white Peace Poppy that Pat C intends to wear in memory of relatives who died in the world war. I had a relative who became a POW of the Japs and had to do forced labour, something that ruined his health permanently. I don't go in for commemorations myself but sympathise with individuals like Pat C who do them in a way that distances them from endorsing received political interpretations of WW1 and WW2. These interpretations have been repeated (and will continue to be repeated) so much by anglo-british popular movies, television documentaries and tabloid feature articles that it is a relief to see pacifists and political groups such as those of John Martin contesting the moral simplicities being promoted.

by RICKY - ORANGE ORDER Thu Nov 08, 2007 22:37

"The British army has always been an instrument of oppression ,occupation and murder in this country".

Barry,about the accusation of murder part of your statement,the undisputed fact is that during the IRA war on the North of Ireland the provos killed more Catholics and Nationalists than the Britisharmy and Loyalists put together did.
So what about that?

by Columb Thu Nov 08, 2007 23:16

Ricky, as a pacifist I don't go in for that sort of argument ("Your crowd killed more than our crowd.")

The argument of some here is that the use of atomic weapons of massacre was justified at the end of WW2 because the numbers killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were less than the numbers who might have been killed if the war in the Pacific had continued another year. In doing such moral arithmetic the amateur mathematicians overlook the matter of radiation effects that were thousands of times worse than the mustard gas attacks done in WW1. The other defect in the argument is that A-bombs are indiscriminate.

Germany has repented the Holocaust, but official America glosses over atomic massacre. A bit like Turkey denying the Armenian massacres of the early twentieth century - though the use of radiation bombs has long term genetic consequences.

by memento mori Fri Nov 09, 2007 13:29

The poppy is a symbol of the fields of Flanders many young men - including so many Irish - perished long after the poppy-fields had been turned into a barren wasteland Thankfully the poppies are back and blooming.

This Sunday there will be commerations around the war-memorials in every small village in France, the country which suffered the most, and where many young Irishmen died. Similarly, in Enniskillen and other places in these Islands. This isn't about the simmering resentment and rage of the few who are embittered and unrecconciled with the success of the peace-process in Northern Ireland. It is about remembrance and death of our kith and kin of every faith and none.

by what have they done for you lately Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:55

There's a shamrock on the front page of the Google Ireland (google.ie) site this morning. Maybe we can look forward to an easter Lily next week? Maybe we'll have to wait awhile for that one...

Still fair play to Google Ireland at least.

Annoyingly, when you put the word "Rossport" into google.ie you get an ad for a particular energy multinational, whose connection with that townland is a less than happy one.

I wanted to see if there was any news from the London demonstration and got a link to a whole load of lies about 700 hundred jobs (no mention of the 100 job losses two weeks ago).

Maybe that's what we should be ringing Google about...

only visible on google.ie

by Seaicilín F Mon Mar 17, 2008 15:35

It would be great to see an Easter Lily up an Google to commemorate the brave warriors of the 1916 Rising and all those other Irishmen/Irishwomen who fought/who are fighting for Irish freedom and an end to British rule and tyranny here.

by Ambiorix - none Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:43 65 Ave Charles Woest Jette St Piere Bruxelles Belgium

Whoever objects to the Poppy on Remembrance especially those resident in the Republic of Ireland are pusillanimous, uncaring, and lack any comprehension of Irish history. Visit Arnhem in Holland, (2nd world war), any cemetery in Belgium and see the hundreds of young Irish soldiers who gave their lives. I defy any of the objectors to look into their own family history and would be surprised if a relative or close family friend were not involved. Per head of population for the time more Irishmen gave their lives than any other nation. As a Belgian I would want to thank these brave Irish Europeans and suggest you all go out and buy a poppy as an act of being proud Irish Europeans. God Bless the great Irish attetude to be committed Europeans and not narrow minded self serving fools.

by bruxelles Sat Nov 08, 2008 13:26

Did you bother to actually READ the article?

by Fred Johnston Sat Nov 08, 2008 17:34

I can't imagine how anyone of sense could possibly object to one's wearing a red poppy in commemoration of those who fell in The Great War. I had relatives who fought in it - few Irish people did not. If I could get a poppy I would wear it. It's retrogressive nonsense to suggest the poppy should not be worn or displayed. And it ignores our own history.

by s.c. Sun Nov 09, 2008 01:25

The Poppy is clearly NOT just about the first world war. Since there are only a handful of veterans of that conflict still around, a moments reflection would indicate that the money raised by the British Legion is not going to them (or they would all be extremely rich men).

By wearing a poppy you would be giving money and support to British soldiers from conflicts like Iraq, Afghanistan, Malaya, Kenya, Ireland, Oman etc etc

Recently the British Legion website featured an ex British paratrooper who had "served" in Ireland in the 1970's and had fallen on hard times after leaving the army. Any Irish person would of course immediately associate the paratroop regiment with a particular event in the 1970's in Ireland, but perhaps you think you'd like to wear a badge saying you support soldiers like him and their "heroic service".

This sort of deliberate pretence that the poppy and rememberance day is just about WWI is what the article is about, so maybe you should have a read of it before making comments. It's not long, and once you've read it you might be able to actually engage with what it says.

by Fred Johnston Mon Nov 10, 2008 03:41

No medals for gallantry of any kind for you, 's.c.,' since you can't gather the courage even to give us your real name. My argument - and my belief - stands: wearing a poppy is a thing Irishmen should do with pride in remembering the 35,000 Irish who fell in the Great War and other wars. The 16th Irish Brigade and the 36 Ulster Division (who comprised many men from Southern Ireland) fought and died under their own names -and you can't even post a comment under yours.

by Plato Mon Nov 10, 2008 08:23

"No medals for gallantry of any kind for you, 's.c.,' since you can't gather the courage even to give us your real name. My argument - and my belief - stands: wearing a poppy is a thing Irishmen should do with pride in remembering the 35,000 Irish who fell in the Great War and other wars. The 16th Irish Brigade and the 36 Ulster Division (who comprised many men from Southern Ireland) fought and died under their own names -and you can't even post a comment under yours."

The fact is Fred that the 'poppy' is a symbol of the British Legion. We are not British, we are Irish. If we want to commemorate Irish people who died in other countries armies, well lets do that but let it be on our terms. The British use this occassion to coat trail and glorify war and the actions of the British Army is not exactly pristine, on the contrary, that outfit has a record of brutality that would bring a blush to the cheek of Attila the Hun.

by s.c. Mon Nov 10, 2008 14:33

Fred, read that article, and then if you have a comment which is meaningful, publish it here here. Otherwise, if you want to make the usual asinine remarks about the "brave boys" who "gave their lives" and talk rubbish about the "fallen", maybe write your own article.

Also, if you really want a poppy to wear, I'm sure you can get one by post from the British Legion, and wear it around Ireland as a badge of your respect for the Parachute Regiment and their glorious history. We'll see who is brave then.

by Shay Mon Nov 10, 2008 15:12

Fred seems to be a bit all over the place on the issue of war and imperialism. He seems to think 'American imperialists bad, British imperialists good.'

see this http://www.indymedia.ie/article/89665&comment_limit=0&c...38504

by Fred Johnston Mon Nov 10, 2008 18:29

We all know the 'bravery' of those who blew Irish people to pieces at Enniskillen as they stood around commemorating the Irish fallen of two wars, a horror that even long-time Republicans condemned. Wear your poppy with pride, for there's scarcely a family on this island wasn't effected by the two devastating world wars and I am surprised that, even as attitudes at every level towards this have changed in the Republic, the retrograde view is still lurking, refusing to give its name, in the green shadows.

by witness Mon Nov 10, 2008 22:32

Well Fred, you still haven't read the article have you? (and you don't wear a poppy either) Sad.

by Optomistic Tue Nov 11, 2008 00:20

Lots of bitter and twisted comments to fulfil a variety of political agenda's. Lets all look to the future and forget the past, poppy and all. Your all going to die angry, its a real pity.

by Irish eyes Tue Nov 11, 2008 02:22

Yes the man from UL who loves the sound of his own voice was wearing one on Q and A last night while banging on about how we all owe foreign multi-nationals so much. Never mentioned the need to foster home grown inovation or resources to provide a sounder sustaineable economy as globlisation is used by these corporations to move to ever lower cost economies. A true plastic paddy!!

by Yellow Haired Lady Tue Nov 11, 2008 23:31

Everyone has their piece to say on this and in all fairness it is a personal choice.

My view is that while these brave folk were off fighting for Britain, Britain was at home persecuting their families. I don't value loyalty to your oppressor.

Also, as long as a poppy is also for British Soldiers, the murdering scum can shove them up their backsides.

However, while my views are very strong, I still feel that others should wear them if they want, and I wont annoy them about it. After all we have had enough traitors over the years, a few more wont kill us.

An easter lily for me!

by Fred Johnston Wed Nov 12, 2008 03:20

Another one with strong views but no guts! Anonymity is a wonderful cloak for moral cowardice. Keep dragging Ireland back into the past, that's the way to do it - and I suppose you'd call that patriotism! The Irish who died in foreign wars would turn in their graves at the rubbish you indulge in. Naturally, you know nothing of your own history; of men such as Tom Kettle and others, Republicans, who nonethless went to the Western Front. What would you say to their memory?

by Plato Wed Nov 12, 2008 08:17

Once again Fred, we all could probably live with commerating Irishmen who died, whoever misguided, in foreign armies, but we should do it on our terms and not associated with anything to do with the British Army. The history of the British Army in Ireland is appalling. While there may not be a family in Ireland who has not some past relative who died in the British Army, equaly , there is not a family who have not suffered at the hands of British Army thugs.

by Yellow Haired Lady Wed Nov 12, 2008 12:48

I think if you read my last post that you will see, I think very little of those who fought in foreign wars, therefore, the thoughts of them turning in their graves does not particularly bother me.

Grow up and accept that not everybody agrees with you

by Red Haired Man Thu Nov 13, 2008 14:18

Tell the soldiers that liberated death camps like Belsin, Auchwitz or Dachau that they only did it to serve an Imperalist cause.
I think they may just disagree with you. I think you'll find that their motivation lay else where.
I don't honour the government or the army they fought under.
I honour the men and women who fought, died or suffered for a genuine belief that by doing so, they would help bring about a better, safer, saner world.
To those of you who can't differentiate between many of the people who fight in wars and those who send them, take a step back and look again....

by Yellow Haired Lady Thu Nov 13, 2008 15:22

By all means honour their memories, however, I would suggest that the best way to do that is to work towards ending war and creating a more peaceful society. I acknowledge that I was a little over the top with the traitor comment.

I really don't see how your time is best used trying to get people who don't want to wear a poppy to wear one.

Poppy for you, Lilly for me. I am sure in that in their own way, they are both respectable young ladies.

by Madra Rua Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:25

Google's pages from Ireland is a complete waste of space, why would anyone search it's pages beats me yet alone notice a poppy. The poppy don't bother me but "Haig" that butchers name on it gets under my skin although it may have been removed recently.

by Pgibson Tue Dec 16, 2008 15:57

It looks like a harmless little picture of an innocent little flower to me.

Amazing the little things which upset some people.

Symbol?.... Me A**E to symbols..
.

by s Tue Dec 16, 2008 17:21

Symbols have a habit of symbolising though, and this one symbolises support for the British Legion and their support for the killers of innocents in Ireland and around the world.