Youth Defence given no platform in UCD

by Niav - AFC Wed Nov 09, 2005 17:51

Congrats to everyone in UCD.

by old ucd hack Wed Nov 09, 2005 17:53

Youth defence broke up an abortion information campaign protest outside the Dáil with hurley sticks in July 2003. They literally took the hurleys out of the back of a van handed them around and starting laying into everyone. Naturally when the cops arrived they arrested a socialist and let youth defence off.

The other incident I recall was when they attacked a Democratic Left Youth picket outside their offices with snooker cues. This happened in 1992 I believe.

Perhaps they used bats on anther occasion that I'm not aware of? Doesn't really matter one way or the other what choice of sport equipment they were willing to abuse as a violent weapon against pro choice activists

Fair play to the activists in UCD who have taken a stand against them!

by Tobie* Wed Nov 09, 2005 18:10

PRO-CHOICE INFO

by old boy - retired Wed Nov 09, 2005 18:43

The incident at the Dail happened in 1994. They did indeed attack DL and others in 1992 but the picket had been ill concieved in the first place. YD had their moments but don't build them up in an almighty threat because they never were that when faced up to.

by Mark C - Teacher Wed Nov 09, 2005 18:49

It's interesting to note, once again, the emotive language that often blocks up internet bandwidth. Whatever about Youth Defence (I don't know the group very well, so I won't comment on them) but it appears to me a bit unfair to say that a group is "Anti-Woman" just becuase they do not agree with abortion.

I know lots of people who do not see abortion as a positive option (my parents for example) but that does not mean that they are necessarily "Anti-Woman", heck, one of them even is a woman.

Mark.

by pat c - not retired Wed Nov 09, 2005 18:53

Yes they certainly shouldnt be built up into too much of a threat but they shouldnt be underestimated either. There have been incidents since 1994. They made some attacks on the SP. I remember a joint DARG/SP rally maybe in 1998 when YD were repulsed. They still try and disrupt meetings and press conferences. Just a couple of months ago they tried to attack a IFPA meeting. Last year they burst into a Labour Party press conference holding up placards and shouting.

Yes, they can be beaten off. The day after the DL demo in 1992 the YD followed us back to TCD from the GPO, we were outnumbered. In TCD there was a skip where we got some implements. YD backed off. The next day (Sunday) YD had a demo, on our counter demo we turned out a heavier crew than they did.

Turn out a heavier crew and YD will always back off.

by pat c Wed Nov 09, 2005 18:59

YD are antigay, anticontraception, antidivorce; you name it. i have been physically attacked by them on several occasions because i was campaigning for a womans right to choose. some of them such as maurice colgan and justin barrett have fascist links.

by Mr Soya Bean Man Wed Nov 09, 2005 20:29

Why say that they are anti a woman's right to choose, when they are actually anti a woman's right to have an abortion.

A woman already has the right not to have an abortion.

by Starstruck - Grassroots Dissent Wed Nov 09, 2005 20:39

Keep it up!
Youth Defense and their line have no place in society.
No platform for fascists!

by Paddy - consistent life ethic(inc animals) Wed Nov 09, 2005 22:33 achorusline19 at hotmail dot com

Me being an allie of peace,i oppose abortion as much as i do war and capital punishment,eugenics,racism,animal exploitation, homophobia and capitalism,and communism.As all are disgusting traits of disgusting practices.Last gay pride as i marched i briefly left the parade to confront youth defence and remind them that Heteros' had abortions,not gay people,and that abortion was a symptom of a heterosexist society,to which the whole gang of them started shouting abuse at me,even though they were well aware i am pro life and consistent in ethics,but see abortion as part of the ''gay agenda''of multiple partners????and ''gross immoral'' sexual behaviour??And on their website praise Bush for his ''life affirming'' policies,obviously meaning his anti abortion policies,you are not pro life if you are anti abortion but support wars,and vice-versa to the very much pro abortion rhetoric of the swp and their youth bracket(lots of skateboarders from Leeson park and surrounding areas,etc.)I would urge any1 who claims to be pro life to oppose all of the above or else stop making yourself knowing to be stupid,a fetus has a heartbeat at 18 days,fact,intentional stopping of a heartbeat by another person without consent clearly is murder!!Yawn.All of the euphemisms of the abortion lobby and industry(big bucks)are the same of the war and arms race lobby(big bucks too).Collateral damage really means civilian slaughter,while ''passing the fetus''is actually a woman giving birth to a dead infant,and even Rosanna Flynn of residents against racism(but for child slaughter)even agrees with abortion up to birth in the 3rd trimester,when the baby is delivered up to the neck,the skull is pierced with sharp scissor knifes and then the brains are sucked out,very progressive indeed,morons!!Yes i hear you,its a bunch of cells,to all the militant atheists=what are we??Just type in abortion images in search engine and tell me about those ''globs of tissue'',oh i can just hear a femmenazi now''their backstreet abortion pics they use''so the morality of abortion or war is dependant on where the bombs are dropped or where the child is killed.Exactly the same rhetoric!!Me being a queer and proud male who uses condoms have known from a young age,about 5 that i liked cute blokes with dark hair,know that my sexuality is genetic,so will you defend the right to abort when women are doing it purely bcoz of pre tests indicating a predetermination of inherent homosexuality??I mean we all know that the unborn are aborted daily for other reasons other than inconvenience such as being downsyndrome,the undesired gender,a cleft pallet,blindness,etc.etc.But as soon as these ''different beings'' are born the left rushes to secure equality and rights,whereas if it were just a few months earlier their would have been screams of ''its every womans right to choose''Even go to planned parenthoods official site and see what they admit to of their founder Margaret Sangers ideas of putting ''homosexuals,prostitutes and thieves" on rehab farms until a ''moral society" could be built??Also look up the american instistution through the ages and see what minorities were consisdered non persons by the state,only one group left now like that in the states,the unborn,please also look up the factual information on how eating meat contributes greatly to 3rd world starvation and envoiremental damage,and ask yourself if you dont stop your death causing meat eating are you a bit racist bcoz Africa is so far away,out of sight,out of mind??Also checkout progressive pro life sites such as left out,vegans for life,pro life alliance of gays and lesbians,pro life animal rights alliance,anarchists for life,wiccans for life,enviromentalists for life,atheist and agnostic pro life league,and decide for yourselves,are yous morally and ethically consistent??Or just single issue "left wingers"bickering amongsr yourselves and fighting right wing groups as silly to be aginst things such as divorce and homosexuality,where consent is present and therefore democratic.Wake up people,respect all life,end all voilence.From paddy, a queer,vegan,anti abortion,anti war,anti capital punishment,anti eugenics,anti racism activist. P.S.,check out a certain man who was part of the early planned parenthood group and also a director in the nazis regime eugenics project,so sttop stereotyping,and yes,youth defence are bullies,not in the slightest bit christian as they claim,as so far as pro abortion activists are "progressive"!!lol. Love and light,Homo Paddy.

by me - personal capacity Wed Nov 09, 2005 23:19

No, if you only have one option you have no choice. thus, they are anti choice.
Being pro-choice does not mean you are pro-abortion as you are implying.

by paddy - consistent life ethic(inc animals) Thu Nov 10, 2005 00:45 achorusline19 at hotmail dot com

Just read what i had to say and agree or disagree,in regards to euphemisms and the modern abortion movements facist roots.Also slavery was steeped in pro choice rhetoric as the ''negroe'' was considered a ''non person'' under the constitution,as was once the woman,the native american,and now the unborn,just go ahead and try to justify as i mentioned 3rd trimester abortion,and explain how the state putting born persons to death for taking another born persons life is justifiable under certain circumnstances''especially when children are killed'' i have heard the latter off some of the most fervount "pro choice" activists,are they on mushrooms or what??And also if you are pro choice in starting a war,it does not mean you promote it??Consistency and common sense pleae??

by gonzo Thu Nov 10, 2005 01:34

Consistent life ethic,

Means

No killing .(thats a full stop there!)

Democracy

Means

The right to choose.



Therefore I have the right to hold to a consistent life ethic and others have the right not to.

by consistent Thu Nov 10, 2005 03:04

Can't you be anti-abortion and pro-choice?

by puzzled Thu Nov 10, 2005 09:35

What makes it ok for leftists to disrupt their opponents and picket their meetings, but not for people who are opposed to abortion?

BTW, I support the right of both extremes to protest and hold meetings.

by marie stopes - The Nurse Cadden Appreciation Society Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:39

see the difference is when leftists stop prolifers handing out leaflets they did it very easily where there was no hurleys/bats involved and its done with the intention of campaigning for a CHOICE. when YD do it, they do it with violence and menace and threats to "come and find you". its not about choice, its about forcing an opinion down your throat. i once made the mistake of walking by a YD pro-life protest in my home town and one of them tried to hand me a leaflet. i said "no thanks im prochoice" (very politely and kept walking. the fella who had tried to hand me the leaflet grabbed my arm and started hounding me asking me how i could condone the murder of innocent life. i said "it wasn't for me to judge etc". anyway i left if at that after which him and three others called me a "murdering bitch" and screamed "murderer" at me as i was walking down the streeet until i was out of sight. i was about 14.

this is not the behaviour that you see from pro-chouce activists so as far as i'm concerned fair play to all in ucd who put a stop to them. good work.

by pat c Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:46

"Can't you be anti-abortion and pro-choice?"

yes. there are many people who are personally opposed to abortion but dont believe that their wishes should be imposed on others.

by Noel Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:08

If abortion is deemed as the individual choice of the woman at what stage does the unborn child obtain right to life?
After 9 minutes? 9 days? 9 weeks? 9 months?
Is it only after birth the child has a right to life?

The link shows an animated partial birth abortion. Do those on this site who are pro-choice see any moral issue with this killing?

by puzzled Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:08

The main difference you cite is that leftists (not all in fact) are pro choice. You agree with them on that so therefore you have no problem with them preventing others expressing their views.

As for your unfortunate experience with Youth Defence, there are similarly plenty of politicians, TU officials etc who have been subject to similar harassment from leftists.

by Darren Cogavin - Socialist Party (personal capacity) Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:09 darrencogavin at hotmail dot com

Yesterday, I was one of the many who blocked Youth Defence's efforts to distribute their filth on our campus. Unlike Youth Defence, I don't use my fists to get my point across, so instead I challenged their positions on a woman's right to control their fertility, on contraception, on homosexuality, on physically attacking leftists, on their links with European fascists and anti-abortion militias that bomb abortion clinics in the States and at shouting "murderers" at young women who attend the offices of the Irish Family Planning Association in the city. Totally unaccustomed with the concept, they refused to debate any of these issues. And not just with me, but also with the many number of random women who challenged their position. Instead, they threatened legal action against me personally and reported me to services. Grossly outnumbered, they weren’t in a position to pick a fight.

As the original poster noted, Youth Defence have a history of violence on our campus, hospitalising a member of the Socialist Party a few years back. They attacked a Democratic Left demo in 1992 with hurleys and baseball bats and broke up an abortion information campaign protest outside the Dail in 1994. They regularly picket the IFPA office and in recent months attacked a meeting calling for safe and legal abortion. Their disseminating of anti-abortion propaganda is aggressive and their reactions to pro-choice campaigners are violent. I am not afraid to debate the issue of abortion rights with anybody, but I will not do so with Youth Defence, and I view it as irresponsible to encourage anybody with pro-choice views to do so either.

Because of our efforts, which highlighted the vile nature of this organisation, their event has been pulled. This is because Youth Defence has a history of violence on campus, they are not a recognised society and their material was deemed by the college authorities to be offensive and contravened the college ethos of respect. They are not allowed to put up posters or hand out leaflets, so if anybody sees them doing either of these, report them immediately to services.

UCD Alliance for Choice, unfortunately dormant for the past year, will be revived to campaign for free, safe and legal abortions. Amicable debate will of course be welcomed. Meanwhile, we hope our small victory will give impetus and heart to the efforts of pro-choice and progressive activists in other universities. Shut them down!

by Niav - AFC Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:19 allianceforchoice at yahoo dot com

1. Abortion must be decriminalised. In no circumstances is it appropriate to criminalise women who terminate or attempt to terminate their own pregnancies.

2. Abortion is a health issue which should be regulated by health guidelines not constitutional provisions.

3. Article 40.3.3, equating the life of the unborn with the life of the pregnant woman, should be removed in full.

4. Women, faced with unwanted or problematic pregnancies, should be able to access free, safe and legal abortion services within the Irish State.

5. It is for a woman to decide, in consultation with her chosen medical advisors, whether or not to continue with her pregnancy.

by a guy called satan Thu Nov 10, 2005 13:24

Let's be honest , pro- choicers treated and treat pro -lifers as fascists ; thus the "no platform " policy . Pro-choicers do not confine their tactics to handing out leaflets and using their powers of persuasion - when they can ,they confront anti-abortionists physically as well . Pat C would surely attest to that.
As somebody who is as sexually active and promiscuous as I possibly can be given my age, I'm obviously going to be pro-choice , but I think the application of the no -platform tactic needs to be re-thought . Most of the YD people I've come across are more foolish virgin types than the strutting nazis that they are portrayed as here . Which isn't to say they aren't being used by fascist elements within the Catholic Church and shouldn't be opposed. But the pro-choice side needs to seperate the youthful idealist "flock" from their cynical pastors - to do that they need to engage in dialogue .
The no-platform tactic reinforces the hold of the clergy over naive and impressionable young people , allowing the catholic church to circle its wagons just at a time when it is embroilled in child-abuse scandals which threaten to blow it apart . Pro-choicers should certainly give a platform to anti-abortionists ; they should use the platform to expose the anti-life (anti-sex) so-called morality of the Catholic Church and the terrible abuses that are the consequences of that church's grip on Irish society .
By the way ,Marie Stopes , I think your namesake may have been a fascist.

by pat c Thu Nov 10, 2005 13:28

"Pro-choicers do not confine their tactics to handing out leaflets and using their powers of persuasion - when they can ,they confront anti-abortionists physically as well . Pat C would surely attest to that. "

We have never initiated the violence. Not everyone in AFC might agree with Direct Action but I believe that when you are attacked you should defend yourself in a manner that will make your assailants think again.

by Jonah Thu Nov 10, 2005 16:09

Let me begin by making it clear that I am passionately and determinedly pro-choice, while personally anti-abortion.

Let me also state that I have no time for Youth Defence and while I have never been involved in a physical confrontation with any member of that organisation, I have been involved in numerous verbal altercations, been threatened and so forth.

All that said, the only facism I see on this thread is a slew of accusations against Youth Defence as being some sort of facist organisation and these accusations made by people who just prevented people with whom they politically disagree from holding a public meeting.

Youth Defence is not, in my experience, a facist organisation, though it may certainly contain some. Certainly they have used facist tactics such as trying to prevent people from speaking at public meetings. Good to see self-proclaimed leftists reaching out to their opponents by embracing the same facist tactics.

by Paddy - consistent life ethic(inc animals) Thu Nov 10, 2005 16:21 achorusline19 at hotmail dot com

Ant one who claims to be pro life and yet either bombs or promotes the bombing of abortion clinics,with people inside is nnot pro life,and definitely morally and generally deluded,as you are taking the lives of people!!Reminds me of that case(one that was well publicised by the commercial media)of that born again"christian"who shot and MURDERED an abortionist,on the grounds he disagreed with murder??And was subsequently MURDERED by the state as he was put to death by capital punishment by Jeb Bush.So,to make a short story even shorter,somebody murdered somebody because he disagreed with him murdering for a living,and the STATE,to show people that murdering someone because you oppose them murdering others is wrong had somebody legally put to death by capital punishment(murderered them).Now,PLEASE,can somebody acknowledge this absolute nonsense that occured,and see the link between all the latter occurences,like a dominoe effect of killing.Nobody has thre right to take a life,and yes i often try,maybe i cant fully bacuse of my inherent gender,try to imagine myself in a situation of being female(which is made even harder considering i dont even take a female position in all of my homosexual acts,lol)faced with an unexpected pregnancy,and not wanting to keep the baby is obviously in the least extremely hard and stressful,yet i still maintain my pro life position on the grounds of ethics and general common sense.I challenge anyone to call me anti woman because of this,just as people are called anti American if they opposed the Iraq War of aggression,is ludicrious nonsense,also please remember that the website,Consistent life ethic Ireland,is not my site,it is run as far as i know by a trinity student and i am unaware of her stance on protective contraception or homosexuality,as i never recieved an email back from her after i explained who i am or my Consistent life ethic which i also expalined to her i extend to the animal kingdom as well.And finally,to youth defence,it will do nothing to further your anti abortion cause by spouting anti-gay rhetoric to people,because the vast majority of practising catholics i know in Ireland are anti abortion but have absolutely no problems when it comes to homosexuality and are extremely supportive of the gay community,but the answer i have recieved to this from them on one occasion is that they are a pro life group which doesnt really have a stance on issues such as homosexuality,war or capital punishment,which i can say at least to the homosexuality part is untrue,as has been pointed out on their website in the past,and also on O'Connell St.,on one occasion a member of youth defence said she didnt particularly like homosexuality because it was un-natural,and didnt care about animals because "they dont have souls"!!So please for the sake of the unborn stop spouting nonsense about homosexuality and using the same tactics of voilence as abortionists use when killing the unborn to further the pro life cause. Love and light.Homo Paddy

by Bash the Fash Thu Nov 10, 2005 17:14

I agree reluctanly yet completely that a no platform position should be applied to fascists.
However moving beyond counter protests to physically preventing their meetings and smashing their attempts to organise is an extremely serious step and must only be applied to fascist groups. This is because of their history, their anti democratic and physical force nature and their racism.
The burden of proof lies with those applying the no platform policy.
YD is a reactionary, catholic group that in some cases use physical force but this does not mean they are fascist.
While some of their members may be racist as an organisation they are not and i dont think they have aim for "the complete destruction of democratic working class institutions in bourgeoise society".
So while i despise them and their tatics i amn't convinced that the "no platform" stance applies to them.

by pat c Thu Nov 10, 2005 17:43

i really expected better from you. this was non violent direct action which cleared yd out of ucd. yd have been attacking pro choice meetings for a long time. they picked on what they saw as softer options such as the labour party and IFPA.

well now its payback time.

i find your comments all the stranger seeing as they come from someone has always taken a republican line. you should have a lot of experience of your own movement being described as fasscist. i have always hit back against such cant. it is shameful that you now compare the AFC to fasscists.

by Darren Cogavin - SP (pc) Thu Nov 10, 2005 17:52 darrencogavin at hotmail dot com

Jonah wrote:
“Good to see self-proclaimed leftists reaching out to their opponents by embracing the same fascist tactics.”

Perhaps you should re-read the original post and my post. I think you got lost there somewhere amidst your own smug self-righteousness.

All the accusations against Youth Defence can be substantiated. Including their penchant for violence against leftists and the pro-choice movement. Nowhere do we call them a “fascist” organisation. I have no doubt however that there are fascists within their ranks. They are a reactionary organisation and they have fraternal links with fascist organisations in Germany, Italy and beyond. Their former leader, Justin Barrett, is a fascist.

We approached Youth Defence in order to counter their rubbish. We wanted to debate the issues but once they became aware of my political convictions, they were having none of it. Actually, even before then when I raised their attitude towards homosexuality, they refused to speak to me. They also refused to engage with the many number of women who approached them. Youth Defence don’t debate, they sanctimoniously preach their anti-abortion and homophobic homilies. Through violence if necessary.

In the end, the decision was taken by the college authorities to pull their meeting and to ban them from postering and handing out leaflets. Not us. This is because they are not a recognised society and their material was deemed offensive. I have no doubt if the meeting had gone ahead, it would have attracted fascist. In that instance, we would certainly have picketed it and would have enforced the “no platform” position on those fascists known to us.

Sorry if that offends your sensibilities.

by puzzled Thu Nov 10, 2005 18:08

Real fascists - ie. Hitler - were pro-abortion, as of course were his totalitarian mirror images in the USSR until Stalin banned it in 1936. It was reintroduced later of course to destroy the unwanted children of the workers paradises.

by paddy - consistent life ethic(inc animals) Thu Nov 10, 2005 18:35 achorusline19 at hotmail dot com

Bravo to puzzled,the militant pro choicers are extremely freightened to see a growing progressive/liberal/left wing pro-life movement.All this rubbish talk about abortionists helping women,yeah,great salary too.I would equate abortionists(and i certainly dont mean women whove had them) and butchers to nazi soldiers,arms manafacturers,and even to the ''people'' who dropped the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki,making a living out of killing.Abortion is proof that society has failed women,check out attacks on abortion even from self proclaimed liberals like Germaine greer and even Naom chomsky.War is obvious,stop the silent holocausts,meat and abortion!!Silent no more!!!

by Jonah Thu Nov 10, 2005 20:11

"i find your comments all the stranger seeing as they come from someone has always taken a republican line"

It is exactly BECAUSE I am a republican, BECAUSE I have been wrongly accused of being a Facist, including by some of Darren's fellow party members and BECAUSE I have experience of political censorship through Section 31 that I believe in free speech as a fundamental principle.

As for Darren's points, you make a powerful case that YD are unpleasant people. I know that. That they use violence. I know that too. That they are homophobic and right wing. I know that as well.

My sensibilities are not affected and as a republican I have never had a moral problem with the use of force in certain circumstances. But as a republican socialist I believe in free speech, even for those people I don't like or organisations that I would consider political opponents like YD, or the SP for that matter.

by Kate from ucd Fri Nov 11, 2005 02:05

"Bravo to puzzled,the militant pro choicers are extremely freightened to see a growing progressive/liberal/left wing pro-life movement."


Youth Defence are a lot of things, and they may not be fascists, but "progressive/liberal/left wing" they ain't.

by paddy - consistent life ethic(inc animals) Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:32 achorusline19 at hotmail dot com

Obviously i wasnt talikg about YD being progressive/liberal/left wing,it was about all the organisations mentioned in one of my previous posts,any1 who thought youth defence was progressive clearly listenes to Any old fruitcake talking or has just snorted four thick lines of ketamine!!

by a real worker Sat Nov 12, 2005 11:58

the people who post to this board and your other boards have nothing to do and all day to do it. ye have no idea of the concept of work - living off your daddys money - spoilt little rich kids - "studying" until ye in your 30's.

I won't be back to see your defensive rants . No, I have to go and earn a living and pay my rent and live in the real world instead of creating imaginary enemies.
I'm one of the real working class and I've never met any of you lot that was willing to help with the deprivation around my area.

Get a job and stop living off others taxes. Parasites

by pat c Sat Nov 12, 2005 14:01

you are not making sense. SF have been wrongly accused of being fascist. that makes it all the worse for you to call AFC fascist because they confronted YD. Fascist is not a word that you should bandy around so lightly given the way it has been used against your Movement.

by Very Ironic Sat Nov 12, 2005 15:34

That it was so funny thart the group who orginally posted this is called UCD alliance for choice.
Not giving people much choice i f they want to hear a different opinion?

by Unembarrassed student Sat Nov 12, 2005 22:21

Nice rhetoric, "real worker", shame it doesn't bear any relation to reality. Student activists tend to be disproportionately working class and I've never come across a single one whose family was rich. Many of them are also involved in community activism when they have the chance. Sorry to challenge your whiny, self-righteous ranting, but I'm afraid it's all hot air. Not surprised you won't be back to respond, somebody with arguments as rubbish as yours is wise not to engage in debate with anyone, you'll just end up being humiliated.

by lazy student Sun Nov 13, 2005 14:17

bet real worker can't resist taking a peak though to see if he gets a response to his childish post . Hello real worker hello we know you're peaking.

by Paddy - consistent life ethic(inc animals) Tue Nov 15, 2005 16:31 achorusline19 at hotmail dot com

First and foremost this was a debate about abortion,i was born in liberty house flats ,then moved to flats off summerhill,i lived in corpo flats until i was 20,my mother worked 3 cleaning jobs and would cry as she wrote down and calculated all the bills,my father worked in the loading bay in Arnotts since he was 15,hes now 43,and only lost his job in the last few months,he never had a different job his whole life,my brother done extremely well in his leaving cert and went to college to study business(trust me i am the much loved black sheep),but didnt like it and went in2 fashion retail and at 20 is already at managerial positions,as for me,never mind,but neither me nor my brother lived off mommy and daddy(ma and da)and i doubt every1 on this post did either,altough some may have,and so what if they from having financial support can make a contribution to society for the better,and yes ive met some of these ppl on this post!!So stop talking crap when you dont know every1 person on this post and yes you will be back to have a peek,from paddy,a working class queer from a working class area!!!So cop on!!

by S D Clancy - NUIG Life Socieity Tue Nov 15, 2005 23:01

As a pro-lifer it is with shame that i read the litany of discrase that has become YD's legacy. While appreciating the fact that SOMEBODY is willing to stand up and say, 'This is Wrong' , 'The right to choose anothers termination should not exist', it is a denial of all rights of human life as it simply denies human life. It should not exist in this or anyother country, IT IS NOT FOR MANKIND TO DECIDE WHO LIVES OR DIES, be you a feminist, racist, nazi, george bush, osama bin ladin, KKK member or of YD, the life that has been given us is not yours to deny to another. So it is a discrase that a "Pro-Life"?? organisation should be so militant. To Treaten the lives of the misguided people, who carryout and who have abortions, is unaccecptable. YD Claim to promote Education, Let them do it using the book, not the baton, set an example for the type of life mankind should lead and be granted, instead of disgracing yourselves by beating with hurleys, bringing down those who truely want to provide a voice for the unborn and the disadvantaged. A Pro-Life Organisation respects life, life of the unborn, life of the child, life of the disabled, even life of the abortion doctor. A Pro-Life Organisation helps and understands the minorities, different races, those of different gender, those of different sexual orientation, those disadvantaged and disabled that we come accross, and whom we should aim to help, support. A Pro-life organisation is a friend to life, a voice for those who need it most, a helping hand to those who cannot use their own. That Hand should not be weilding a hurley or threats, and the body that wields it should be shamed if it does.

by Paddy savage - consistent life ethic(inc animals) Wed Nov 16, 2005 09:56 achorusline19 at hotmail dot com

An enlightning post to read,i understand you speak only for Human life,but if you would read,if only to be informed, A book entitled"A starving world",your eyes would be opened to the reality that the consumption of meat in the western world contributes greatly to 3rd world hunger and starvation,trust me sister,its not propaganda,even look up the connection on yahoo.Love and light,Homo Paddy...........

by pro choice lady Wed Nov 16, 2005 10:56

“To Treaten the lives of the misguided people, who carryout and who have abortions, is unaccecptable.”

Misguided??? Have you personally experienced a crisis pregnancy? As someone who has had an abortion I find your comments deeply insulting and they show a complete ignorance of the circumstances women find themselves in. Do you know anyone that has had a termination? Are you aware of the financial and emotional hardships Ireland's draconian abortion legislation has on them? The decision to have a termination is a difficult one to make. I was certainly not ‘misguided’ in any way, shape or form. I have no regrets. I also find it very strange that you have included the word ‘feminist’ in the same category as ‘racists, nazi, george bush, osama bin ladin, KKK member’.

by gonzo Wed Nov 16, 2005 10:59

of course you can be both anti abortion and pro choice!
I personally think abortion is wrong,
however,
I believe the individual has the right to choose.

In other words i have my own morality but i dont believe i have the right to force others to live by it!

thats the anti abortion/prochoice bit.

Now lets get on to the freedom of speech bit!!!!!

"i may not agree with what you are saying, but i defend to the death your right to say it!!" familiar?

Didnt know that the irish constitution made any distinction between communist and fascist in regard to this right!

by UCD Student Mon Nov 21, 2005 19:07

The pro-life group, ultrasound has being permitted to have a talk on campus tonight
Although there has being widespread criticism of the college in allowing such an event to occur, they have still given clearance to this event. Offensive posters and materials have being sighted on campus, which has led to numerous complaints being forwarded on to the college authorities.
Protest to take place at 6.40 beside Number ten Bus Stop.

UCD continues to be 'the Catholic University' long after it ditched that name and secularised. The NUI was set up as a secular university. UCD no longer have catholic clergy on staff. We should not have conservatice catholics using their positions in this college to sort out their friends. Opus Dei, Youth Defence, and any other blatently offensive group get free reign. UCD have given a dodgy lecturer in radiography who openly flouted the law of the land a golden handshake. UCD are allowing this covergroup for youth defence put up offensive posters (breaking dignity and respect for people who went through the trauma of an abortion/unplanned pregnancy).

by kat Tue Nov 22, 2005 23:27

Fascism..hmm..doesn't that have something to do with curbing free speech? Much as I disagree with the Pro Life people, they have every right to speak. Full stop. And you people, of all people, should not be advocating censorship of anything just because we think there might be problems. If we can't have free speech in a university, then where can we?

by Ex UCD Leftie Tue Nov 22, 2005 23:56

Just through word of mouth, up to 30 people showed up outside the building where this talk was to take place, the college duly cancelled the talk, reversing their decision under the weight of student concerns.

The topic made the front page of both student newspapers today. With both papers publishing photos of the controversial posters which caused the uproar in the first place. The Tribune editorial commended the students who raised concerns over the debate for their stance in promoting open and educative dialouge on the social issue of abortion while attacking YD for trying to force their agenda in the debate through a dishonest manner and for their violent conduct in the past. This makes for a dramatic change in the editorial opinions of the paper as last year after the Barrett debacle they applied a formulaic line of free speech for all while dismissing the concerns of protesters. All year the Tribune has being providing concerned coverage over modularisation and issues faced by students.

by Mark - none Fri Nov 25, 2005 23:04 mbomber at comcast dot net

'I personally think abortion is wrong,
however,'

This is like saying I would never have a slave, but if you want one it is your choice.

Abortion ends a humon life. That is a fact.
The group, Ultersound was not allowed to speak. That is a fact.
Who is really a Fascist? Look in a mirror.

by pat c Sun Nov 27, 2005 15:12

You people have fascists in YD, Justin Barrett and Maurice Colgan. YD supports the bombing of Abortion Clinics, your own email address gives a lot away. Abortion is a Womans Right To Choose. Funny you people are never around after babies are born.

YD also oppose contraception, divorce, gay rights, sex education. These people want to establish a theocratic state - rome rule.

by Mark Thu Dec 01, 2005 18:36

Pat,
First of all my e-mail is a "spin" off my last name, I know it would be unlike you to mis-represent anything.

You mention that YD supports blowing up clinics (which is pro-choice, killing to solve a problem)
Can you show me what proof of that you have, or is that just your propaganda?

"YD also oppose contraception, divorce, gay rights, sex education."
So what you’re saying is that they stand for Biblical principles?

"You people have fascists in YD, Justin Barrett and Maurice Colgan"
You never addressed my original point that a fascists attacks the weak by definition (such as tiny children)
What have these 2 done that makes them a fascists?
Fascists censor speech and kill innocent, weak, and vulnerable. Once again, look in a mirror

by pat c Thu Dec 01, 2005 19:23

"You mention that YD supports blowing up clinics (which is pro-choice, killing to solve a problem)Can you show me what proof of that you have, or is that just your propaganda?"

YD members regularly shout abuse at Pro Choice activists, they specialise in glorifying clinic bombings/.

""YD also oppose contraception, divorce, gay rights, sex education."
So what you’re saying is that they stand for Biblical principles?"

The bible also says you shouldnt eat shellfish or pork, cut your hair or shave, keep slaves, beat your wife. do you adhere to those principles? (btw the bible also says that Pi is equal to 3. try applying that formula and you will end up with ellipsoid wheels.


"You never addressed my original point that a fascists attacks the weak by definition (such as tiny children)"

I dont accept the mindset that views a Womans Right to choose as being fascist. A fetus is not a person.

"What have these 2 done that makes them a fascists?"

If you want to read about barrett & colgans fascist links then go to the AFA site.

http://www.geocities.com/irishafa/

"Fascists censor speech and kill innocent, weak, and vulnerable."
I agree. go to the site above and read about people who fight fascists.

by Mark Thu Dec 01, 2005 19:33

"A fetus is not a person"

What is it?


"The bible also says you shouldnt eat shellfish or pork, cut your hair or shave, keep slaves, beat your wife. do you adhere to those principles?"

Read the NT.

However, lets put the Bible aside. If abortion doesn't end a humon life, what does it do?
If YD was not cencored, what were they?

by pat c Thu Dec 01, 2005 19:38

a fetus is a non-viable entity.

so you pick & choose what you want from the bible then?

YD have disrupted a lot of meetings. as ye sow so shall ye reap[. isnt that biblical?

by Mark Thu Dec 01, 2005 20:14

I do not pick and choose the Bible, I prefer not to use the Bible in the abortion debate.

"a fetus is a non-viable entity."

So if someone is not viable they are not a person? If science can keep a baby alive at 8 weeks conception they is it a baby?
Abortion in the states are done the entire pregnency even after they are "viable"

Who determins viability?

by Balmut Thu Dec 01, 2005 21:45

thankfully her parents did not abort her:)

by Balmut Thu Dec 01, 2005 21:57

so is Peter Singer right when he advocates the killing of severaly retarded babies and fetuses as they are not viable?

by Mark Thu Dec 01, 2005 22:21

Actually Singer says the first 2 weeks after birth it is ok to abort because of their thought process.

Pat, you may want to brush up on your argument.

The new "pro choice" arguement is that it is a baby but the womans rights are greater then the babies.

And we are the fascist?????
go figure

by pat c Fri Dec 02, 2005 21:32

yes you are the fascists. you want to control womens bodies.

you do pick and choose what you want from the bible. levicitus, the book which outlasws gaysex also outlaws eating shellfish. so go off and build your ellipsoid wheels.

if you think that a bunch of cells are equal to a woman then you are the one with problems. why dont you look for the vote for embryos?

do you still think barret and colgan arent fascists?

by pat c Fri Dec 02, 2005 21:45

i'm not aware of any choice argument that says a fetus is a baby. your arguments about handicapped euthanasia are a red herring and have nothing to do with this debate.

the Hawaii Supreme Court agree that a fetus is not a person:

"The high court ruled that the homicide prosecution of Tayshea Aiwohi did not fall under state law because her unborn child was not a "person" when she smoked the drug."

http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051130/NEWS20/511300342/1001/NEWS

by observer2 Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:16

So when can we expect YD to picket/demonstrate at the U.S embassy in protest at the murder of over 100,000 Iraqi children? or the continuing massacre of adults in both Iraq and Afghanistan?

Do YD condemn Bush and his murder machine,
come on boys and girls lets have an answer.


Do YD condemn Irish participation in this infanticidal attack on a soverign nation?

Do YD condemn the massacre of the children of Jenin and the rest of Palestine?

Do YD condemn the R.C church for its cover ups of the destructive abuse of children?

Is it not true to say that Christ urges people to be compassionate, non jugemental and loving towards all people?

by Observer2 Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:21

'I personally think abortion is wrong,
however,'

This is like saying I would never have a slave, but if you want one it is your choice.


The difference Mark, is that in this country slavery is illegal. It may be like saying anything, but what the poster said is that they don't believe in forcing their personal morality(based on personal conscience, a christion notion) down the throats of others.

A little theological study might not go amiss with you Mark.....

by mark Sun Dec 04, 2005 06:13

Pat, you and all the "pro choice" are the fascists.
You are the one that feels that it is ok to kill children.

Lets not even argue if it is a humon or not, science has proven it.
It's own DNA, and often it's own bllod type, combined with arms, legs, fingers, and fingerprints.
Lets add brain waves and what do we get? If it is not a humon what is it?????

At least admit such as Planned Parenthood has that it is a baby. They feel the woman's right is greater then the babies.
That is fascists, nothing else.

by mark Sun Dec 04, 2005 06:17

"what the poster said is that they don't believe in forcing their personal morality"

Every Law is someone's morality. And yes, slavery is illegal in the States, but when it was legal did that make it correct just because it was legal???

Abortion ends a humon life. That is a fact.
If one thinks that is wrong are they shoving their morality around anymore then one who feels that rape is wrong????

by Mark Sun Dec 04, 2005 06:23

So what you are saying is that everyone who feels abortion is wrong has an obligation to protest every violation of human rights?

If someone opposes medical testing on dogs, by your standards they must protest fur, meat, hunters and fisherman.

Wow, you have high standards for people.

Once again abortion ends a human life in a manner that we would not punish our worst criminal. If one supports that by definition, they are a fascist.

by mark Sun Dec 04, 2005 06:33

Show me where I have argued abortion with the Bible Pat.

That is such a typical liberal way to debate.

If you have not seen where the pro choice groups have admitted its a baby then open your eyes.
Even Hillary Clinton is saying so.
Have you ever seen an ultrasound of a baby prior to an abortion??
Have you ever seen a torn up baby after an abortion?
Be open minded enough to look at that and then tell me it is not a child

Hitler said specific groups were not human as well.
Once again, you are the fascist.
I hope you have the courage to look at the facts and make an informed decision.

by observer2 Sun Dec 04, 2005 11:59

So you dont condemn the bush infanticidal regime. And you are not practicing a consistent life ethic.

Just to clarify something mark, you have used a number of analogies, such as rape and slavery to justify your attempt to impose your morality on others. Neither rape, slavery, murder or any other criminal act you can mention are similar to abortion by virtue of the fact that they require two seperate humans to be involved, the victim and the perpetrator. Such is not the case in abortion. What would have been a good analogy would have been voluntary euthanasia, it is also a situation where an individual makes a decision regarding their own body.

So heres the solution mark, return to the old way, ban abortion and lets use the pregnant mothers as cheap labour in one of the convents laundaries........sure while they are there they can serve as sex slaves for the priests......

Sound familiar? we have had the domination of a democratic state by religious fanatics such as yourself.............

by mark Sun Dec 04, 2005 13:33

"So you dont condemn the bush infanticidal regime. And you are not practicing a consistent life ethic."

This is typical liberal debating. We are talking about abortion, the killing of a small child, not the Bush policy in Iraq. That is a diffrent subject.

" they require two seperate humans to be involved"
My point all along is that abortion does involve 2 seperate humans.
Your inability to look at the one being killed and identify it as a baby shows your are not open-minded on the issue. The fact that the tide is changing in the "pro choice" argument combined with science shows that it is a baby, a seperate human. It would be impossable for one person to have 2 diffrent DNA.
Once again, look at an untersound of a child prior to abortion. Then look at that same torn up child after abortion and tell me it is not a baby. Be brave enough to have an open mind on the issue.

As far as "back ally abortions", I hope they never come back. We have come a long way since the 60's. We have better birth control, along with a network to take care of women who made the CHOICE to engage in an activity that would cause pregnency. Also, single parenhood in looked upon diffrent now, plus the adoption centers have a 3 YEAR WAITING LIST FOR ANY CHILD REGUARDLES OF RACE AND CHALLENGES.

Rape, by Planned Parenthoods own data is less then 1% of abortions. Much of that has to do with conception during high trama is unlikly.

I also oppose the war, however that is a diffrent issue.

I dare you to look at abortion for what it really is, the killing of a child. And if I am correct, when can that be an acceptable "choice"

by mark Sun Dec 04, 2005 13:38

"state by religious fanatics such as yourself............."

Show me once where I have brought the bible or religian into this?

Intresting enough you are the 2nd one to accuse me of doing that. I wonder what can be read into that.

One does not have to believe in the bible to see abortion is a very bad thing.

I made one comment stating that YD follows biblical principles. I never argued my points with the bible. You all just accuse me of it.

by pat c Sun Dec 04, 2005 13:48

you are throwing about the word fascist far too loosely. go to the AFA site and find out about fascists.

i have spent my entire adult life fighting against fascism & racism. i dont think you understand what fascism really is.

its also worth pointing out that a lot of YD members are anti immigrant. residents against racism used to have a stall near the YD one but had to move because of constant harassment and racist taunts from YD>

there you will find evidence that barret & colgan have fascist links and imho are themselves fascists.

i dont care what hilary said, you might be misquoting her. anyway, shes not my ideal person.

care to supply some backup for the 1% of rape/abortions? how about a link?

by mark Sun Dec 04, 2005 15:16

"you are throwing about the word fascist far too loosely. go to the AFA site and find out about fascists"

No I am not. I am using Websters defanition.

Just because one hides behind a website doesn't mean one is not a fascist.
If you have speant your entire life fighting it, what is it????

Are you willing to look at the truth about abortion or blindly follow the liberal agenda.
(blind followers hmmmmm where has that happened before)

According to you a fascist is one opposed to abortion. So was Mother Theresa a fascist?

I personally have never heard YD do or say anything racist. The people I know who have been involved in YD are not. That does not mean that that some indeviduals are or have been, but I do not believe that is YD's stand.
Believe it or not, there are raceist people who support abortion as well.

I will get you the link later today on rape and abortion. I do not have time now. I am sure if I forget you will remind me. :)

Cheers

by mark Sun Dec 04, 2005 15:20

"there you will find evidence that barret & colgan"

I saw what you said on Barret and did not like what I saw. Is he still with YD?

I saw nothing on colgan. Can you provide a link please?

by pat c Sun Dec 04, 2005 16:25

a fascist is someone who believes in a set of ideologies these include racism, anti-semitism, smashing the working class, smashing all political opponents.

i certainly dont believe that all those who are "pro life" are fascists. only a tiny minority would be so.

mother teresa did a lot of good work among the down trodden people of india. i wont knock her for being against abortion but i do think she deserves some criticism for opposing the use of contraception in such a vehement manner. (as a nun, it would not be surprising that she would oppose contraception, but as the direct results of overpopulation were under her nose, her strident espousing of the vatican line was surprising given her other giood works)

i thought there was stuff on colgan on the afa site i will try and track down some stuff for you. in the meantime i will point to colgans associates. he hung around with the fascist band "Celtic Dawn". colgan also shared a flat with members of the band. more later. (you may say thats guilt by association, but by their friends shall ye know them)

by pat c Sun Dec 04, 2005 16:32

One British Fascist group which has paid attention to the 26 counties is the International Third Position (ITP). This group (also active in the North) pursues a violently anti-Jewish Christian fundamentalist and agenda. It tries to appeal to both Catholic and Protestant bigotry with anti-gay and anti-abortion propaganda. Unlike the BNP and the
NF, who are strongly anti Irish, the ITP believes that most Irish people in the South could be won as allies.

In 1993 the ITP magazine 'Final Conflict' printed articles praising Youth Defence (YD). Another ITP publication, 'Catholic Action' contained an article written by Cliona Ní Mhurchu, a YD activist. This article was full of nazi terminology and thinly veiled references to Jewish conspiracies. This article also appeared in 'Candour', a British Mosleyite journal.

In the late 1990s the International Third Position ran a website called "Crusaders for the Unborn Child" which expressed much praise for YD. TheCrusaders were a front for the ITP and held a number of pickets on abortion clinics in Britain as well as a picket on the Irish Embassy in London. The Embassy picket was specifically in support of the YD.

by pat c Sun Dec 04, 2005 16:41

anyone with good german might be interested in this link about YD Colgan, barrett &the ITP.

by Mark Mon Dec 05, 2005 00:58

Pat,
Being that I do not know German I have yet to see any proof of your statements toward Colgan.

All I have seen is that he knew some people and at one point lived with some people whom you have quoted that you didn't like.

I know Colgan. I am also a part of an inter-race family. I do not believe he holds views that are inproper on race.
I think what you have done is a personal attack with out proof.

by Mark Mon Dec 05, 2005 01:10

"a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual"

From Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary



If abortion ends a human life and if abortion is legal by the state including but not limited to financial support for the abortion then you have a political philosophy that exalts nation above the individual. You have fascist.

Pat, I hope you are open to look at the truth about abortion.

by R. Isible Mon Dec 05, 2005 01:16

What you posted makes absolutely no sense. Pat C is defending the right on an individual woman to choose whether or not an entity which ranges from a few cells up to a complexly organised set of cells which can't survive outside of her body should be /forced/ by the nation to carry to term whether she wants to or not.

Pat C has also provided links which show the link between some pro-lifers and groups which are fascist beyond any dispute.

Wrangling and chopping logic are not the purpose of the comments section in indymedia.ie If you have new information or news on this topic then by all means post it, but don't abuse the comments section for the purposes of debate. (Especially one like this which is sorely lacking in any substantive references that might inform anyone about anything.)

by Niav Mon Dec 05, 2005 15:15

Sandy writes - "the woman damaged for life".

There are no objective scientific studies that have shown an increase in psychological trauma because of an abortion.

Anti-choice activists claim that women suffer severe post-traumatic conditions known as 'post abortion syndrome' after having an abortion. While some women may experience regret, sadness or guilt after an abortion, the overwhelming responses
are positive feelings of relief and happiness. Studies on the possible effects of abortion on women emotional well-being have repeatedly shown that there is no
scientific or medical evidence to support the
existence of 'post abortion syndrome'. Studies have found that the major predictor of a woman's well-being after an abortion is her well-being prior to becoming pregnant.
The Royal College Obstetricians and Gynecologists states that some studies suggest that rates of psychiatric illness or self-harm are higher among women who have had an abortion compared with women who give birth and to non-pregnant women of similar age. But they caution that it must be borne in mind that these findings do not imply a causal association and
may reflect continuation of pre-existing conditions. The Royal College Obstetricians and Gynecologists also
studied the more recent review by Thorp et al.
(http://www.plannedparenthood.org/pp2/portal/files/portal/medicalinfo/abortion/fact-010600-emoteff.xml) They independently reviewed the studies cited in that paper and more recently published studies.

Almost two-thirds of women who had an abortion did not report any emotional stress after the abortion, with
ten out of 58 in a Swedish study reporting mild to
moderate emotional distress and a further twelve
participants experiencing severe emotional distress.
In 2000 a study of the psychological responses of
women after their abortion, found that two years after
abortion, 72% of women stated that they were satisfied
with their decision. The study also found that women
who experience depression after their abortion have
had a prior history of depression.
It should also be noted that normal delivery often
results in stress (baby blues, post partum depression,
post partum psychosis, very, very rarely suicide) and
giving one’s child up for adoption is also extremely
stressful.

Many studies show that the main feeling post abortion
is relief, and that the stress is related to the lack
of communication about the abortion and the support
received.

Have you considered the impact on a women’s health if you compel her to continue with a pregnancy when she does not want to have a baby?

by Sandy Mon Dec 05, 2005 15:50

It appears your independent study has some links to Planned Parenthood.

Lets just go back to the basics.

Is it a baby? If those who support abortion would look at an untersound prior to an abortion, then look at the remains after the abortion I would then challange them to say it is not a baby.

by Seán Fri Dec 16, 2005 04:43

Darren Cogavin:

"UCD Alliance for Choice, unfortunately dormant for the past year, will be revived to campaign for free, safe and legal abortions. Amicable debate will of course be welcomed. Meanwhile, we hope our small victory will give impetus and heart to the efforts of pro-choice and progressive activists in other universities."

I am also progressive but see pro-abortion people as killers/or as people that cooperate in killings.

Abortion is killing the unborn, children that can smile and kick in the womb.

I have no respect for you people.

" but also with the many number of random women who challenged their position"

Its interesting how many women anti-abortion people there are.

"As the original poster noted, Youth Defence have a history of violence on our campus, hospitalising a member of the Socialist Party a few years back. They attacked a Democratic Left demo in 1992 with hurleys and baseball bats and broke up an abortion information campaign protest outside the Dail in 1994. They regularly picket the IFPA office and in recent months attacked a meeting calling for safe and legal abortion. Their disseminating of anti-abortion propaganda is aggressive and their reactions to pro-choice campaigners are violent."

They might. The SP can not stand up and say that their campaigns are exactly non-agressive though. Look at the bin-tax. Stopping bin trucks under threat of aggression.

I remain to be convinced what you said about Youth Defence is true.

If it is, you should look to your own corner first before coming out with such ironic statments.

by siptu member Fri Dec 16, 2005 08:17

Were you ever on a bin tax blockade? There was never any violence or threat of violence from the protestors. The only violence came from the Gardai who on more then one occasion beat up and baton charged protestors.

Maybe you should get out of your ivory tower in UCD and actually get some experience in the real world where you could see that abortions are part of life and a necessary part of life for many women. Why should women who are in a time of crisis have to have the added trauma of gathering over €1,000 and travelling to Britain away from their friends, family, partners etc. There needs to be free safe and legal abortion in Ireland. Fair play to the Alliance for choice campaign!

by Voltaire Wed Aug 02, 2006 09:44

You either believe in free expression or you don't. You don't!

Many socialists, marxist leninists have censored and banned free expression dismissing it as a "bourgeois concept". Anarchists should have a solid position on defending everyone's right to free expression.

I was run off a university campus in England handing out leaflets for three peace activists in jail awaiting trial in Preston. Meanwhile other people were handing out leaflets for lap dancing clubs and nightclubs were left alone, while I was led away by the cops on request of the student union president. As I was being led away I turned to her and yelled "You're going to be a cop when you grow up!". She assured me that she was intending to join the police force on graduation. So there you go!

That's where this generation is at when to comes to defending democratic rights that they passively inherited that other people struggled for. Your position on free expression only counts when you defend someones right who you disagree with.....like, hey "Youth Defense".

by Alex Fri Oct 13, 2006 16:47

For someone who values transparency and tolerance in debate you are remarkable quick to brand the protesters as anti-choice, anti-woman, as bullies and call them Nazis.If the anti-abortion side is 'Anti-choice', as you try and brand them then the Alliance for Choice is 'Anti-life', in a debate over values life trumps choice every time.

You laud the forceful removal of them from UCD property. It is clear that the people who reported the activists to UCD services did so not out of respect for he rules but in an attempt to silence one side. People who are against abortion are not neo-nazis but are in fact opposed to a horrific and unneccessary form of violence that is far similar to what the Nazis actually did to women.

The spreading of baseless and slanderous propaganda, the forceful oppression of opponents and the call to arms expressed in your article are far more akin the fascist actions than a campaigner for the unborn's right to life.

by MichaelC Fri Oct 13, 2006 21:41

Excellent recent publication on Youth Defence available at http://www.catholicsforchoice.org/topics/other/document...e.pdf

by Anarcho Fri Oct 13, 2006 22:36

"Alliance for Choice" celebrating crushing free expression/speech. Student union bureaucrats decide on what information students can receive. This reeks of Stalinism.

However you'd like to define it, you don't believe in the right of free expression for those who disagree with you. Especially sad this would happen on a campus. I guess Chomsky warned us that capuses are just factories for the technicians of production, consumption and consent.

And the first lesson in manufacturing consent is to crush voices you don't agree with and (if you can get away with it here) celebrate it as a victory for freedom!