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The SakerA bird's eye view of the vineyard
Public InquiryInterested in maladministration. Estd. 2005
Human Rights in IrelandPromoting Human Rights in Ireland |
Robert Fisk on US Planes in Shannon international |
anti-war / imperialism |
news report
 Wednesday October 19, 2005 12:53 by Mark C - Teacher mark at markconroy dot net
 And also CIA Rendition Flights At a lecture jointly organised by Amnesty International Irish Section and The Irish Centre for Human Rights last night (18/10/05) entitled "Into the wilderness: how to escape history in Iraq" in National University of Ireland, Galway, Robert Fisk outlined the state of Iraq at present and his misgivings for a peaceful future there. In answer to a question from the floor regarding US planes landing in Shannon he said (I paraphrase) that that is not really the issue. There is a war on and if planes are going to refuel they are going to refuel, whether in Ireland or not. |
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Comments (37 of 37)
Jump To Comment: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37Apparently Fisk will be in the Stillorgan Park hotel at 7:30pm on Thursday night (tomorrow), but I heard the tickets are 45 euro, so I won't be going.
I guess if anyone is interestested they should contact Amnesty in Ireland or some such crowd
Yes he' s in Stillorgan at some business meeting type thing - 'An Evening with Robert Fisk'. Tickets are forty five euro a go - a big jump from eight euro last night for Amnesty members and fifteen for non-members.
http://www.jsaonline.ie/default.asp
Mark
Extracts from fisks latest book in Socialist Review at this link http://www.socialistreview.org.uk/article.php?articlenumber=9540
http://www.socialistreview.org.uk/
He was asked on Q & A one time about the US military using Shannon, and he said it wouldn't be a big deal if they moved somewhere else.
To a certain extent he's right. To the average Iraqi, it won't matter a whole lot if the weapons killing them were transported through an airport in Ireland or the UK. It just matters that it will kill them, or injure them. Who helped to do it will be a thought for another day, if they survive.
It's more important that the US military leaves Iraq than whether they leave Shannon or not.
But just as Shannon plays its role in the Iraq war, we have our role to play too, and we must do what we can to help even from thousands of miles away.
As for a US military withdrawal from Shannon.
If the US left of their own accord, then it would be a problem for logistics, as Shannon is the most efficient stop for the US military. It would take more fuel, and more flights to move the same number of troops and weapons... it would slow down the deadly conveyor a bit, and hopefully the rate of death and destruction.
But if the US military were to be publicly pressured out of Shannon, that would be huge embarrassment for the world's reigning superpower, to have their military turfed out by a country with less people than New York.
It would be seen as an example that other countries might pick up on. Look at Denmark. Their Prime Minister, a loyal Bush ally in the war, is under pressure for his support. He is being sued by a group of Danes, including the father of a Danish soldier killed in Iraq.
His government was already pressured into telling the CIA to stay out of Danish Airspace.
(if only that attitude caught on inside Dail Eireann)
Glad to hear Fisk call for inspections at Shannon. The 'see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil' attitude of the FF/PD government is a disgrace to the concepts of democracy, law, and human rights.
A Brit with a book to sell who doesn't see the significance of what happens in small countries (like this one) when big ones (like his) go to war. Its the same line he had on the Late Late Show last year. He has come here to market a book not to organise withdrawl of Irish co-operation with this illegal war.
The NGO's who are parading him and charging the outrageous prices to hear his pearls of insight have remained inactive on Irish complicity in the war. So guest and host dovetail on this one! If memory serves me, the NGO Peace Alliance denounced the nonviolent direct actions at Shannon repeating the Government slander of the activists, some who remain before the courts. The NGO's milked the initial response to the war in Ireland for profile & publicity and have moved on.
It's a wrong line, Austrian Air Space was sealed from U.S. military during the invasion, so I guess they won't be refueling there.
Amnesty only charged €8 for members and €15 for non-members. Not an "outrageous" price by any standards, for a very intersting and informative evening.
As for the event in Stillorgan, it is organised by Jane Stephenson Associates - "Event Design | Speaker Selection | Seminar Delivery" - hardly an NGO in the activist sense. Actually Fisk said last night that he never charges for a lecture. I find it kind of hard to believe that someone would be so kind as to facilitate this kind of gathering for free, especially since, I suspect, it'll be full of business type-managerial hacks, at €45 a gringo. "Outrageous".
What is outrageous is that Amnesty went from being a human rights movement to a major transnational corporation back in the '80's. Probably around the time the U2 juggernaught landed and the corporatist culture took off.
From the direct mailing/chugging (charity mugging) to the opportunism displayed around the issue of Ireland and the war to the lack of action around the trials of nonviolent activists in Ireland to the emphasis of this initial post (was this really the most significant thing Fisk had to say about the war on Iraq in Galway the other night?) it reeks of corporatism and marginalisng the competition.
There was no initial emphasis regarding Amnesty. I did not write on behalf of Amnesty (although I am a member). Yes, Fisk did say some more interesting things, but I just thought that Indymedia readers might like to have heard about his Shannon thoughts after the thread about it recently on Indymedia.
I wasn't trying to give a synopsis of Fisk's lecture, just making public one part of it. I might have taken more notes and made a more "full" report here except I kind of thought that someone else would have done it - my fault.
Amnesty and the Irish Centre for Human Rights were mentioned because they are the groups responsible for the lecture taking place, no other reason.
I am not sure how the "competiton" is marginalised. Shouldn't NGOs be working together not in competition. I don't think being a huge NGO - such as Amnesty - hinders other NGOs being effective. Perhaps I am being too simplistic.
Regards, etc.
45 euros, 8 euors or 15 euros. It is a rip off. Political meetings should be free with donations to cover costs. Otherwise they are an exclusive insider waffle fest. I remember in the 80s and 90s the umemployed groups regularly denouncing economics conferences on unemployment for their excluding fees. Some people learn nothing except how to make a few bob.
Yep, it seems an odd post to put up a few days before 5 dissidents go to trial in Dublin for disabling a U.S. Navy War Plane at Shannon. See www.peaceontrial.com
I met Robert Fisk in London during the genocide in East Timor, when he was writing about it. Seemed ok. Probably knows a lot about Iraq, but not much about Ireland. So it seems a weird quote to be cherrypicked & prioritised from his public meeting in Galway.
Robert Fisk writes interesting stuff in the English Independent from and about Iraq. There is probably some truth to the analysis that he thinks opposition has to come from inside US/UK, but underestimates the role of Shannon as the major pit stop for the U.S. invasion and the effect on the Irish diaspora (inside & outside the various militaries) in Australia, Britain & U.S. should Ireland have opposed participating/refueling the war.
Amnesty, well they never looked me up when I was a nonviolent prisoner of conscience in the U.S. in the early '90's. On the otherhand just scored a donation this morning from an organiser with a local Amnesty group toward our trial expenses. So I'm sure there a lots of good folks at the grassroots level. Not sure if the hierarchs are reluctant to criticise the U.S. where I imagine their economic base is based.
It's true the Pit Stop Ploughshares were slandered by 2 Government Ministers and the spokesperson for the NGO Peace Alliance with the lie that we "assaulted and hospitalised a Garda in the hangar at Shannon". To give the Garda some credit they put out a press release on the day of the disarmament saying there was no assault and no hospitalisation and of course we weren't charged with assault. When the Garda took the stand at our first trial in March he stated that I had "comforted him". Yet there has been no public retraction of the public slander by the 2 Ministers and the NGO Peace Alliance in the to long years that have elapsed since they were made. Not sure if Amnesty were part of the NGO pEace Alliance?
So it goes...and we go to retrial on Monday. How many folks who marched against this war 2 years ago will prioritise solidarity as we are before the courts remains an open question. We would like to hear from you soon.
We will be speaking in Galway Thursday night, entry by donation.
Totally agree with you doley what is fisk on a bout, he's certainly gone down in my estimation, some of his work is great but 45euros to speak to some dorky irish yuppies...shame, as for amnesty no time for them whatsoever
but big respect to you Ciaron and very best of luck in the trial: wish I was about for it but Im still over in sasine
x
I think Amnesty needs to charge something to cover costs but also to continue running the organisation (until the "revolution" comes and capitalism ends). I'm sure Indymedia will be delighted if they get more money than is needed to cover hosting costs during their present drive, so that they can continue to do what they do and perhaps add some extra features to the site. And, as a BTW, Fisk said that he never charges for any of his interviews, so I guess the economic grump is with another party.
I thought fairplay to Robert Fisk for making the point about the torture planes when he could. That was the only reason I put the post up, nothing to do with the pit-stop ploughshares going on trial - Good Luck by the way. I presumed the more publicity Shannon gets the better. I don't see anyone giving out about Village Magazine picking up on the story, the lovely glossy magazine that it is, with all its fancy advertising - and good luck to them too.
On the idea that Fisk probably knows "not much about Ireland", I would think that he has some idea about the place. He took a PhD from Trinity College, was The Times' corresponent in Belfast for a number of years (1972-1975), took a course to learn basic Irish in UCG (as far as I am aware) and wrote a book called "Time of War: Ireland, Ulster and the Price of Neutrality, 1939-45".
I'm going to leave off on that note, since I am not trying to be a speaker or apologist for Amnesty International or Robert Fisk - just thought some Indymedia readers would have liked to know Fisk's thoughts on Shannon/ CIA Torture.
Robert Fisk is a great journalist and war correspondent. You can count on one hand the number of English speaking journalists with his degree of professionalism reporting from the Middle East. Most never leave their hotels, hardly speak a word of Arabic, and most importantly, never stay long enough in the region to even begin to understand what's going on.
You can hardly expect him to know the full significance of SNN's role -- and Ireland's role -- in the so-called 'war on terror'. Sure we don't even know the whole of it!
For example, if the US Navy plane which Mary Kelly damaged in Jan 2003 was only carrying spare tires and such -- as the prosecution and the media said at the time of her trial -- why would the US military send a Hercules to come and offload the cargo and speed away quickly within hours of her action/arrest? What else was aboard?
World Airways and one or two other bandit airlines moved to refueling in Frankfurt Airport after the CW5 smashed up the same plane again just a few days later. A German Federal Court opined this summer the Germann Government was breaking German Law and International Law by allowing the belligerents refuel. The case was about something else (a CO named Major Pfaff -- see http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/sep2005/iraq-s27.shtml ), so no sanctions have been brought against the government for their lawlessness yet. Still, this illustrates that taking action at Shannon Airport could have a much larger effect than we might first believe possible.
As the previous poster has pointed out he has substantial links and knowledge of Ireland. After he was nearly beaten to death by a mob that thought he was George Bush he chose to recover in Ireland where he has friends.
I agree with Ciaron though that he underestimates the impact that a shutting of Shannon to the illegal co-operation with US military operations would have.
But maybe he's trying to focus on the even more outrageous (is such a thing possible) transit of political prisoners by the CIA to be tortured in other countries?
The fact that the Gardai (or whatever is the appropriate branch of the Irish government) is currently not inspecting these planes is something that probably disturbs a lot more people than the complicity in the illegal occupation of Iraq.
If the Garda or ay other Govt body goes and forces or demands an inspection of a US registerd jet,and especially if it is a GOVT jet.You are violating another countries diplomatic immunity!! It would be the same as demanding the gardai go and assault the US embassy because it refused to recognise a Irish search warrant.Technically,if any Irish govt body were to violate another embassy or govt plane of another country.It could be classified as an act of war!!!And we really dont want THAT !now do we kiddies???
Am amazed who THICK our policicans can be on somthing they should know about.International diplomacy.
As for the US pulling out of Shannon.27million Euros gone from Shannon,what the US govt paid last year for the use of SHNN.
A lot of very pissed off locals with the anti war movement.[Who are about as welcome in SHNN as a dose of AIDS in a monastry]
For costing them thier livihoods[Always wonderd is the irish anti war movement financed by the Dublin lobby airport?????]
And no it really does not make any difference as Shannon is a spill over from Leakenheath AFB.Since they closed most of their other bases in the UK since the cold war ended.
We could get tit-for-tat with the Americans and ask: "Who broke the law first?" but I won't degenerate.
What are YOU on about?: "Am amazed who THICK our policicans can be on somthing they should know about". That is the problem, our politicians are not doing anything about it. It is us, the people, that are calling for the US to stop taking rendition personnell through Shannon (oh, and also Robert Fisk last night - but I don't consider him to be an Irish politician either).
We'd lose 27 Million Euro? So what. I'd gladly lose it. Just because an action makes money or provides jobs does not make it right. Shut Sellafield I say.
The locals are pissed off? So are the majority. And we are also locals in the Irish context.
If "it" doesn't make a difference then STOP THE TORTURE JETS. What harm would that do? Afterall, it doesn't make a difference.
M.
Would it be significant if Shannon Airport demilitarised from servicing the illegal U.S. invasion of Iraq?
A good historical precedent is New Zealand's 1984 refusal to allow nuclear warships into their ports and the response of the U.S. government...suspension of the ANZUS Treaty, the suspension of joint military exercises by the Austrlain Labor Party government, the attempted diplomatic freeze out by the U.S.
New Zealand hardly of similar strategic geographical significance to Ireland (so much so that the recently scrapped their costly Orion anti-submarine surveillance after concluding they hadn't spotted a submarine, Soviet or otherwise in 30 years, they went on to scrap their Air Force).
The New Zealand people took a moral stance against the preparations for nuclear war and survived. They weren't in the EEC, they are a similar population to Ireland, they may have 40 million more sheep, but they had integrity. So much so that no party could be elected without changing its policy on this issue.
The U.S. regarded this position as significant as did the world wide anti-nuclear and peace movements.
I'm glad to see Amnesty has taken a good stance towards possible instances of human rights breaches at Shannon, this has been discussed alot lately, and good to see some action.
I'm glad to have paid my membership dues today...
First Ciaron -- you're absolutely right. NZ nuclear free zone is an excellent example. We could learn a thing or two from the NZ anti-nuke movement. For one thing, the politicians were only looking for far less of a "nuke free zone", but because the issue was even raised, and the US response ("what's that? Little NZ wants to keep our nukes out?!"), they were sort of thrust into the hardline position they ended in.
Same goes for Belgium and universal jurisdiction of it's courts for war crimes (by the way, Israel's courts still claim universal jurisdiction for the same crimes). Henry Kissenger, and until quite recently, Colin Powell and others in the Bush administration were warned that if they land in Belgium, they could be brought before a court for war crimes.
A10 -- foreign state aircraft don't have diplomatic immunity in Ireland. Only the embassies do. There's a (disputed) principle in customary international law that foreign state ships and aircraft should have "sovereign immunity" in some cases. Generally though even advocates of this principle say that there had to be a legal basis to begin with for that ship or aircraft to be in that area (including distress, emergency).
Ireland didn't recognize that principle visavie the aggressors in WW2 -- when German airmen crashed in Ireland they were arrested and sent to the Curragh. Since then International Law has put much more responsibilities on everyone to see to it that aggressors don't get away with murder. So you can probably guess what's required of the Irish authorities in this day and age -- at a very minimum the same treatment that was given to the Germans.
The nuke free issue was raised by nonviolent resistance on the water blockades kicking off in the late '70's. This resistance created the space (usually a space quickly colonised by the moderates and opportunists and corporates and the movement sold out)...but not this time
what a load of twaddle...
If an aircraft is a state aircraft, it's usually very clear, and it's declared.
US diplomats travel on VIP USAF aircraft, not on unmarked jets registered to phoney aircraft with CIVILIAN registrations.
That, like all the other excuses put forward by the state don't hold up in the cold light of day.
It's a crime and FF/PD minsters don't want to know about it.
A very selective arguement indeed.You forgot that in Irelands "neutrality"that the Develara govt had no problem allowing Allied airmen slip back over the border to Ulster,or returning the then secret Norden bombsight to the Allies on the Ulster border,from downed US bomber aircraft.whilst German airmen were hunted down and were not allowed on leave outside 50 miles of the curragh.they could have been quietly slipped back to Portugal on one of the tramp steamers that did one blockade run a month.Not to mind putting them on one of our own merchant fleet.Proably they might have allowed them to slip back on U boats that possibly had a covert refueling base in Donegal or the West Coast.
IRELAND IS NOT AND NEVER HAS BEEN NEUTRAL!!!!
And you are also WRONG on the issue of diplomatic immunity of aircraft/ships.I would suggest that you persue a copy of international air commerce from the UN.Not to mind international diplomacy between the US and Ireland.Unfortuneatly international law and lawyers who know their stuff,[and not some bunch of bearded long hairs,] will point out that any Civillan aircraft contracted to a govt will and does enjoy the same diplomatic immunity,privilidges etc as a registerd govt vessal aircraft of that country.
Sorry if you think this is twaddle,but the fact is it is international law.Sorry if it does not fit your world picture.
So how do you all presume this plane[s] will be searched.As this will be a garda/customs investigation there will be NO civillians[that means you lot] allowed aywhere near the scene of the crime so to speak.
The plane could be stuffed full of nukes or terrorist suspects and all the Gaurds/customs have to say is it was carrying bubble gum!! Thats it!End of story!The organs of law and order inspected the plane it was clear.NOTHIN YOU CAN THEN DO ABOUT IT! You have your inspections,and they can still fob you off,continueing as before.
Plus if the plane is carrying anything it should not be.Do you HONESTLY think it is going to be left on the ground any longer than it needs to be refuled???? So by the time Garda/customs take their time to get to Shannon or to the apron...wait it is actually on airport terrority rent a cop responsibility.Oh well...[THEN the govt has nothing to fear at all of allowing THAT LOT to inspect a plane.They are so thick,seeing that they cant even stop a bunch of hairies coming over their fence.]
A11.5[boy are you original!]
Do you honestly think all US diplomats travel on Airforce 1????Got news for you on that.The US govt unlike our dumb tightfisted lot actually are obliged to tender out for certain contracts in the public sector in the US.Hence you have the Civillian aircraft doing military /diplomatic personel ferrying duties.
[insults removed - ed]
1 in 4 Iraq vets ailing on return
By Gregg Zoroya, USA TODAY
More than one in four U.S. troops have come home from the Iraq war with health problems that require medical or mental health treatment, according to the Pentagon's first detailed screening of servicemembers leaving a war zone. (Related: Troops screened as never before)
Almost 1,700 servicemembers returning from the war this year said they harbored thoughts of hurting themselves or that they would be better off dead. More than 250 said they had such thoughts "a lot." Nearly 20,000 reported nightmares or unwanted war recollections; more than 3,700 said they had concerns that they might "hurt or lose control" with someone else.
These survey results, which have not been publicly released, were provided to USA TODAY by the Army Center for Health Promotion and Preventive Medicine. They offer a window on the war and how the ongoing insurgency has added to the strain on troops.
Overall, since the war began, about 28% of Iraq veterans — about 50,000 servicemembers this year alone — returned with problems ranging from lingering battle wounds to toothaches, from suicidal thoughts to strained marriages. The figure dwarfs the Pentagon's official Iraq casualty count: 1,971 U.S. troops dead and 15,220 wounded as of Tuesday.
A greater percentage of soldiers and Marines surveyed in 2004-05 said they felt in "great danger" of being killed than said so in 2003, after a more conventional phase of fighting. Twice as many surveyed in 2004-05 had fired a weapon in combat.
My point about the aggressors (the Germans) being interned during WW2 in the Curragh was clear enough for you to understand. It wasn't "selective". It was clear. Germany was the aggressor in WW2, as the United States is the undisputed aggressor in the Iraq war.
I think you got the point, but decided you'd try to muddy the waters a little with your little history lesson about Ireland and the Allies.
Regarding immunity of foreign military during a time of war - whether aboard military aircraft or civilian aircraft - I direct you to the San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994. LINK: http://www.ilrg.com/subject/lawofwar/13sanremomanual.html
In particular see the section SECTION III : ENEMY VESSELS AND AIRCRAFT EXEMPT FROM ATTACK. Basically, those planes are fair game not only for inspection, but probably also to be shot down.
Now A10, please share your Intl. law sources which show that CIA, Mossad, and who knows else can pass through Ireland in unmarked, civilian aircraft using civilian call signs -- carrying who knows what! -- and there's nothing the Irish state can do about it.
You missed the point totally.IF Ireland was neutral,both the Allies and Axis force personal would have been interned and kept interned until cessation of hostilities in 1945.Like they were in Switzerland,which was truely neutral,even in it's banking.
Ireland was NOT neutral,it was hyprocritical[as per usual] with a very selective neutrality in favour towards thew Allies.
Sorry if i have rattled your foundations of your illusion of reality.I wont even bother to reply to your propaganda of America being the aggressor in Iraq.You cant ration,reason or
talk to fanatics.Yes,your link gave me a link to a bank.Now i suggest you look up the international law on air transport,the Warsaw convention,international diplomatic law,when or where a diplomatic aircraft or ship charterd or rented can be searched .Prefably from a recognised international law source not some internet law site.You are dam right about one thing ,the Irish state couldnt be botherd or intrested in checking these flights.Neither is 98%of the pouplation either as a matter of fact.If they were you would have thousands at Shannon in protest,not dozens.Love to see what would happen if the Irish Air Farce could or managed by sheer chance shoot down one USAF plane,what would happen here.Also your quote is wrong the USA is not an enemy of this state,so it is null and void.
[insults removed - ed]
Now going back on topic,you still havent answerd HOW this is going to be verified?You say you will be happy if the Gaurds/Airport police do it properly.How will you know?All they have to do is walk onto the plane,look around and walk off again.As they will be instructed to do.Also now you are saying the forces that have been oppressing and harrassing the Anti American brigade at Shannon here ae now trustworthy,and you will now accept their word??My God!!How naive can you get??So also answer me the plane lands,it has somthing aboard that shouldnt be there,it lands 0200/300 in the AM.
It takes appx 60 /90minutes to refuel,which will be waiting for it.It taxis out and is gone.Where do you expect the Gardai to come from.?There are none based in Shannon airport.Shannon town,has two squad cars,more usefully employed keeping some law and order in the town.Also the gardai have no juristiction in airport boundary it is airport police responsibility.THEY knock off usually at last flight time usually 23:00hours,ditto customs.So by the time these LEO get out to the airfield,[and they wont rush for anything to do with you lot anyway,]Your plane will be gone.Now what??Send the Irish Air farce up after it in it's new turbo prop fighter????Might as well send a micro light with a shotgun up after it.By the time somthing scrambles from Baldonnell[24hours give or take] the plane will be in international airspace COMING BACK to Shannon empty.And of course you can inspect empty planes,which they will as there will be nothin in them that is incrminating.
You people really need to get a grip on the reality of Shannon ,what you are up against and of doing somthing about this instead of sending each other posts about torture jets,warports and other such buzzwords,or plane spotting.
A10 - you're just trolling. That's enough now.
.
I'd like to offer a comment or two on this thread. Firstly, Customs have full jurisdiction in Shannon Airport under the various Customs acts, notably the Miscellanous Provisions Act of 1988 and the Shannon Airport Act of 1947 to board and search any aircraft, vessel or vehicle using whatever measures (including force) required.
I understand that the function of Shannon Airport Police is to preserve the internal and perimeter security of the airport. That's all. They have limited powers by comparision with "real" law enforcement agents such as the police and customs, but do have the powers of arrest and may give orders to any person to desist or leave the airport precinct. They have absolutely no powers beyond the airport boundaries.
Customs by contrast have full law enforcement powers within the boundaries of Shannon Airport and also within twenty miles of those boundaries.
A10 is wrong to say the Gardai have no jurisdiction in the Airport, that is untrue. Any Garda officer physically present within the confines of the airport automatically has the same status as a Customs officer, under the 1949 Act. I've written on other threads (here: http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=72357) on the subject.
Furthermore, to prevent an officer of Customs or the Gardai from carrying out their duties in regards to searching said aircraft or vessels, etc. is a crime, and punishable by fines set out by the above legislation (further amended by the various annual Finance Acts in order to keep the fines punitive in terms of current value).
Any person, be they a government minister or a foreign agent, who orders or conveys to Customs and the Gardai that they are to be less than diligent in their searches of aircraft within the confines of the airport is IMO potentially guilty of a crime under the above acts.
Now, as to diplomatic immunity, this is a very specific privilege afforded by the Vienna Conventions, and most certainly does not confer upon privately registered aircraft or vessels, such as the alleged "torture jets" which appear registered to various front companies, nor do they apply to military aircraft. Persons accredited as diplomats or charge d'affaires or envoys are specifically exempted from normal customs inspections but only those persons so accredited. No such exemption applies or exists to random foreign aircraft, be they obviously military or otherwise.
The Warsaw Convention, which A10 cites in support of his or her argument, deals with the liability of airlines and aircraft owners. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the discussions in this thread, with neutrality, with powers of search or anything else. A10's use of it is a complete red herring.
Incidentally it's notable that supporters of the Iraq War (who include by definition again IMO anyone who does not object to the abuse of Shannon in facilitating this illegal war) seem to have no problem citing international treaties and so forth when seeking to justify any aspect of their case, as A10 does above.
The innate hypocrisy in this is that they do so while by clear implication they also support the US mal-Administration's cavalier trashing and breaching of other international treaties, such as the Geneva and Hague conventions.
This whole tragedy is based on lies and hypocrisy, on both the US and Irish and British governments' part. Those who complain that their jobs will be endangered by closing Shannon to belligerent military forces and enforcing the current law of the land by insisting on proper boarding and searches of aircraft allegedly used to transfer human beings to torture regimes, plainly have no problem earning money from the blood sweat and tears of innocent people thousands of miles away from Ireland's green and pleasant land.
By that token should ye know them, and know that their opinions are all bought with thirty pieces of silver. If such people are happy to purchase their wages by countenancing the deaths of innocents they should bear in mind that those are wages of sin.
At this Fisk Meeting, Amnesty International refused to have announcements of other human rights activities in Galway eg. Thursday nights talk by the Pit Stop Ploughshares defendants.
Amnesty at the highest levels are basically a profit driven corportation. A.I. bureaucrats view anyone else working on human rights at a grassoroots, local level is seen as a competitor. They are a corporation with no sense of mutuality and solidarity, there censorship of the Pit Stop Ploughshares intervening at Shannon to stop human rights violations in Iraq is the latest case in point.
A.I. are run by a well paid elite who view the grassroots members as passive payload to exploit.
'A Spanish judge issued international arrest warrants yesterday for three US soldiers who face being put on trial in Madrid for the killing of a Spanish television cameraman during the Iraq war.'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/spain/article/0,2763,1596149,00.html
If Spain can issue international arrest warrants for American soldiers accused of crimes in other countries...
Then Ireland could issue international arrest warrants for American agents (and pilots) flying torture planes and such landing WITHIN Ireland.
just a thought.
But you obvisouly are.By running away and hiding behind a load of technical bits.And refusing to address the practicalities of the situation.Yes customs have the power to inspect aircraft,vessels etc ,even with force.Common knowledge which I never denied.You are also wrong on the airport police authorithy again.Were this true what you describe,it would be the Gardai gaurding the airport buildings,doing baggage searches etc.Usually in European countries you have a paramilitary police force or border gaurd unit doing thos tasks.Also were this the fact,there must be a Garda station on the airport grounds.There isnt.Thus this is contravening Irish law as well.
Micheal still doesnt understand the concept of private aircraft under US govt contract and their accorded privilige.Nor obvisouly how the more clandestine nuances of international diplomacy is done,nor how obvisouly diplomatic immunity is observed in the real world
.A diplomatic passport can be issued to ANYONE the govt that person sees fit to do so and for various reasons.Did you know for example the US peace corps[do gooders who go around the world wasting US tax dollars]are all issued US diplomatic passports,and they are NOT embassy staff,etc.So how difficult will it be for a spook to be issued with one.But this unpleasent fact of diplomatic reality obvisouly doesnt fit in Micheals wolly perfect world.
Now,Micheal I ask you how is a garda,customs offical, fascist anti american hairy appointed, inspector going to know if the pretty personal secetary to the sanitary facility embassy inspector enroute to Berlin or wherever is really what she and her diplomatic passport say she is .Or she/he is actually a ex special forces CIA operative? What are you going to do?see if they have a hidden fredora,trenchcoat and shades???Pythonesque scene...He is a CIA Spook burn him!!! Accredited diplomatic personel only applies if they were disembarking in Shannon and going to work in the Dublin embassy.Do you honestly think the US State dept are going to give you lot or the Irish govt a list of their accredited worldwide diplomatic personel?
Might as well ask for the nuke launch codes for the ICBMS as well. Nor do active secret agents for any country work or go near their respective embassies,they are known as illegals,and are deniable assets to their country,if they are ever caught.So it is doubtful that they are coming in private or govt jets thru Shannon.They are coming thru on Continental or Delta.
Remember if you arrest one of the diplomatic corps and they are accredited[which is simply a matter of paperwork] on some trumped up charge.You now have created a major international incident!!!! Watch the retaliation on the US part remember this can work BOTH ways.Wonder how many Irish illegals and embassy personel would be on the next flight home from JFK?Wonder how many busisness would be packing up instantly and moving off to cheaper and friendlier countries??Bye bye Celtic tiger.
I would love, Micheal if you were in charge for one day.You would have Ireland involved in diplomatic incidents and proably a war within 24 hours with your crackpot diplomatic and international law ideas.
Dont bother preaching morality either.Usually that is done by those who are sitting with their arses in a butter tub somwhere.Maybe we dont like it either,but each of us have to live somhow.Are the "thousands of innocents"going to thank you,me or us in general for saving their asses??Like Hell! Are you going to feed ,clothe,and pay my bills??Are any of the Anti American crowd going to do this for those employed in Shannon???Do any of you ACTUALLY LIVE in Shannon?????Or do you all pontificate from Dublin 4 or some other cushy area?
Judge not lest you be judged!Does that sound fammilar?
[insults removed
I really got to laugh at this groups methods of discussions,once somone dissents and asks a practical question on how this should be carried out and verified apart from taking the word of corrupt law enforcement officals or customs.Who will be told not to find anything or make up [as they do] a reason not to inspect the planes.you can be sassured this will happen and any copper or customs offical,who might dissent will find themselves out of a job or a new beat on the outer Skelligs.
A smoke screen of fault finding in the posters arguement ensues,straw arguements fly up and accusations of trolling abound!!!
So I guess that the posters here would rather talk than do anything or consdider the practical solutions to their problems.Or the consequences for this grand little rock.
QUOTE: "If the Garda or ay other Govt body goes and forces or demands an inspection of a US registerd jet,and especially if it is a GOVT jet.You are violating another countries diplomatic immunity!!"
You've now been told clearly that Customs /can/ inspect a US registered jet, especially if it's not a government jet. It doesn't seem like you can stick to a straight argument.
You are now accusing all Gardai and customs men of being "corrupt" under the laughable pretence that if a nice little passenger jet were found with a shackled prisoner in it then the Gards would turn a blind eye.
I really doubt it.
Now the airport "police" are obviously a different matter!
Lets face it the Gardai havent shown themselves to be exactly squeaky clean when it comes to upholding the law now have they???There are plenty of posts here on this board about Garda skullduggery.Remember the Mayday protests??
And how the Gardai involved walked???
That was pretty laughable to see and hear the hairies naiveity to belive justice would be served.
NOW all of a sudden the anti American protestors will accept as gospel everything that this paragon of upholding of Irish citizens rights as the truth???
So there is a clean garda in the search party.He reports back to his superior about this plane being stuffed full of prisioners[unlikely].Now what?His report is buried in the bottom of the paper tray.He goes to the media,no one prints,publishes or listens,ditto politicans,apart from the usual leftie types that no one takes seriously .By now our Garda is out of a job,and finding it very difficult to find another,and discovering life is becoming very difficult in many ways. Put yourself in his boots,you have a job,a career wife ,kids and mortage to look after.Are you going to throw all that away for your principles and some obscure higher good???
Especially as I pointed out adnauseum here,it is not in this States diplomatic intrest or benefit to create a diplomatic incident.
[AND for the last time,get this into your heads,a private jet CAN be registerd as a govt jet,IF it is contracted to a govt dept.It does not have to have USAF markings or other govt markings to make it stand out.
]
I think the words double standards or naiveity of the anti American groups in ireland come to mind.
So to sum it all up. In easy to understand points;
HOW will you verify that the Gardai/customs/airport police will actually carry out these searches properly.Without any independant verification??
How will you know that the above groups will ACTUALLY carry out these searches and not just claim or be inexplicably delayed before the plane leaves Shannon?Remembering that most of these flights come in in the dead of night and the customs close down after last flight in bound.Usually around 11 PM
HOW will the above groups know if there are any illegal US personel aboard these planes?Or that it is carrying contraband?
WILL the Irish govt risk a major diplomatic incident to satisfy a bunch of radicals of it's own pouplation,by arresting and then expelling members of the US diplomatic corps or impounding one of it's aircraft???
Especially as the Irish govt is only entitled to know accredited diplomatic personel on its terrority,not each and every one worldwide.
WOULD ,if they had somthing to hide the US govt park for 24/48/72 hours a military,civillan or whatever aircraft on the terrority of a friendly neutral,and refuse to allow it to be inspected?
HOW much manpower will it require to search and unduely delay a foregin aircraft going about its ligit busisness?Who will also pay for all this?
WILL the anti american groups insist that all other countries with a history of human rights abuses or arms trafficking aircraft that fly into Shannon be searched as well for contraband???
So go off and rant and critique me again .Heard it all before here,and it is water off the ducks back,but please try to answer the questions with somthing realistic?
Rants and raves start here.......
'HOW much manpower will it require to search and unduely delay a foregin aircraft'
none if you do not let them land in the first place. Its not that complicated.
QUOTE: "AND for the last time,get this into your heads,a private jet CAN be registerd as a govt jet,IF it is contracted to a govt dept.It does not have to have USAF markings or other govt markings to make it stand out."
And none of the CIA front planes that have been tracked by Tim Hourigan et al on this site and reported on Kalle Fakta are government registered. In fact, because torture /is/ illegal the US government is very keen to try and make sure there are no direct links to it. So those planes would be very easily searched by Irish customs officers.
Again, you are running from the central simple point: this is illegal both in Irish and US jurisdictions.
The number of people in the administrations of both countries that find torture acceptable is low. I'm sure most Gardai and customs officers want nothing to do with it and would reject your slur.
However, as long as the minority of officials (like the scared for their jobs incompetents in the airport "police") are allowed to mismanage the situation and then the decent majority doesn't even get a look in.
Your whole post is a negative defeatist one that argues that everything is corrupt and there can be no change. That's only true if everyone has your mindset: I don't believe that.
You are arguing against trying to do anything because from your limited personal experience you believe that nothing can be done. If everyone took your attitude then Ceaucescu would still be in power and the USA would still be a colony of Britain and we wouldn't have a Republic of Ireland.
"None if you dont let any land."so therefore you are NOT going to allow ANY registerd US planes land in Ireland,commerical,private or otherwise.Hmmmm,that will be a bit of a bitch if you want your relatives,from the US[if you have any]to come over to visit.??Glad Nicis you live in such a simple world.
Risible
You as expected cant or wont answer the practical problems with any sort of an answer .As per usual with Indymedia posters you revert to personal critique of the poster who asks the awkward question! I am glad you have such a naive,innocent world outlook.you will lose that as you get older and discover that alot of your precious illusions will be shatterd very painfully.I really hate to say this;but you REALLY have alot to learn about life and all it's nastiness.Especially what kind of people you are up against.
Now, before you make a further fool of yourself ,going on about the CIA and it's registerd aircraft or otherwise.May I suggest a read of a book called Air America???It is about the CIA airlines,and how it came about worked thru Vietnam,the cold war and was supposedly shut down in the 1970s. I can tell you it is alive and well today.And it could make if it wanted to make three planes appear at three different airports,that are EXACTLY the same as each other,even down to the serial numbers on their coffee pots!!
So if you know anything about aircraft[which I doubt]you might know that to do somthing like this is a virtual impossibility,unless you have total clandestine govt agency backing.
So what this means is your So called "torture jets" could be in any one of any X number of airports at any given time.I like the description,a picture of a flying medival dungeon with stocks and thumbscrews.If you expect the inside of the plane to look like that your naiveity is worse than I thought.Yes indeed torture is illegal in the Irish and the US.However maybe you should ask any ODC in a lockup in the Bridewell or bull pen in the US.better still ask a few of your pals from the Mayday riots or Sinn Fein types wether torture is ilegal in Ireland.Ever hear of the "heavy Squad"?Maybe abit before your time.
I really love your flippant remark about Chaucescu.Amazing that coming from a leftie.Wasnt he a God that walked the socialist/communist earth?Dont you think the last three comments of your post are abit childish,as how is there a comparision between three countries reveloutions,and obtaining proof of how there is supposedly an illegal act being comitted on Irish soil?
To answer the questions I posed and being able to come up with a practical answer is called REALISM.What you and most other posters are doing here is called LOFTY IDEALISM.AKA Sticking head up arse,or talking large amounts of CRAP.Which is what seemingly most Irish groups are very good at I find.
Now again;Can you answer or suggest a rational,reasonable answer to my posed questions without getting personal,or fudging the issue with straw arguements,or other evasive answers ??????
1. I haven't insulted you in any way. I've taken what you've said on face value and repeated it back to you. You assume that the world if full of corrupt cravens. That tells me as much about you as it does about the world.
2. You're attempting to ignore the fact that you claimed that there was no way that US planes could be inspected in Ireland. When presented with evidence to the contrary you've attempted to fudge the issue.
3. The idea that one would have to deny large air carriers transporting civilians landing and refuelling rights is not the same as denying charter planes carrying the military and small private jets carrying restrained/drugged prisoners unable to talk to the customs officials.
4. Given your apparent desire to see higher employment at Shannon it's bizarre that you'd be against gainful employment of more customs officers or Gardai to inspect planes.
All in all, your long, bizarrely punctuated screeds which diverge into the wildly personal, make exaggerated claims (of the superpowers of the CIA and the general malignity of mankind) make it impossible to take what you say seriously. It's also hard to understand what exactly you're arguing.
The logical outcome of what you are arguing is that Ireland as a nation should not attempt to enforce any rules or morality that we're afraid other nations might not like.
I'd suggest on the contrary that the few miserable euros (30 million?) that we get per year by allowing a small, illegal subsection of the USA to abuse our neutrality and hospitality is severly offset by the longterm damage it does to our international goodwill, and more importantly, to the strength of the EU.
I really don't understand the rest of your screed about Ceaucescu: my point in mentioning him was that the immoral, cowardly functionaries in that society were a minority, and although they seemed powerful they were removed by the decent majority.
In the long term I believe that's what happens as long as people believe in freedom, justice and democracy.
The people that don't believe in those values usually end up compromising themselves and because they hate themselves for it try to argue for a new set of morals because they can't bear their hypocrisy. That's what's happening in Ireland right now.