Labour divided as Broughan savages Rabbitt over pact

by Socialist Party member (personal capacity) Sat May 28, 2005 14:49

The division in the Labour Party is over how to win more seats and how to get into government. NO speaker spoke against coalition with right-wing parties. The opponants of Rabbitte's motion are supporters of coalition and only differ on a tactical question of how to win seats. In fact many of the opponants of Rabbitte's motion wanted to leave the door open for a FF coalition! I particularly enjoyed Declan Bree's assertation that he didn't care who Labour go into government with. I also enjoyed Dermot Looney's contribution which praised previous coalition governments and then ruled out having coalition with Fianna Fail, PDs, and Sinn Fein! What about Fine Gael Dermot? The vote at the end showed that the Labour Party are COMPLETELY empty of any principled working class people. The vote was 80-20 in favour of Rabbitte. Of the 20% how many were arguing that there should be no coalition with bourgeois parties? None such people spoke!

I look forward to campaigning for Cllr. Clare Daly in Dublin North to take that Labour Party seat away from a pro-privatision of Dublin Airport Fine Gael/Labour coalition!

by hs - sp Sat May 28, 2005 15:22

by going into this coalition, i stopped supporting labour after the spring tide, when laour betrayed it's voters by climbing into bed with FF after campainging against them. The party has yet to recover from that disaster. What they hope to gain from this (even from a party political point of view) is hard to see. They've agreed to go into coalition without any conditions attatched. They haven't even made any demands of fine gael. Its incredible, kenny must be delighted with himself. It gives less reason to support labour, and he's probably right the shinners could well eat into their support. And the left will be snapping at their heels.
Lately it seems (not even lately for the last few decades) Siptu and labour stand for nothing. Its a shame but this vote and the big trade unions social partnership perrmanent stratagey points that way.

by Former Labour member Sat May 28, 2005 18:54

Ann Gallagher, a solicitor, who stood for the LP in Cavan /Monaghan stood up and made a speech saying that when she joined the LP it was full of workers and trade unionists but they had been successful in changing all that and now doctors, solicitors, accountants etc were now the membership....

Say no more....

by Person who finds all this self-righteous bluster hilarious Sat May 28, 2005 20:11

Its really funny listening to all the SPers giving out about Labour going into coalition. The fact that Labour are willing to make compromises shows that whatever their faults, they are intelligent enough to respect other viewpoints -even those with "right-wing" views- and that they have a bit of common sense. They can balance principles with pragmatism.

Our system is all about compromise. Labour would love to get 51% of the vote but they know that they have nowhere near that level of support in the country, so they make the tough decision because if they dont we get 5 more years of Fianna Fail. Fact.

Coalitions are all part of our democratic system. We all know that you'd like a one-party state where there would be no need for coalitions, but try to understand that most people, unlike yourself live in the real world. This mindless and dogmatic refusal by you to even acknowledge the legitimacy of alternative views shows how anti-democratic and you really are. You shut yourself off to compromise in the same way that religious fundamentalists do. And that is why all you will ever contribute to Irish society is giving us all something to laugh about.

by Paddy Sat May 28, 2005 21:00

Genuine socialists within the Labour Party, especially people like Chris and others in Labour Youth are now faced with the reality of a party which is overwhelmingly committed to coalition with a right wing party. The harsh reality is that there isn't the slightest possibility of wining the party over to a policy of building an alliance of the left as advocated by Mick O Reilly etc. Rather than wasting time arguing against this overwhelming majority and ending up in party which is implementing anti-working class policies in government, these comrades should leave now and get involved in building a real alternative.

by hs - sp Sat May 28, 2005 21:53

the problem with all this is we are left we no choice. because ff and fg are really the same party and have the same policies, labour joing with them gives us no reason to support them. Labour have never recovered from "that coalition" with FF. And rather than providing an alternative they prop up either conservative party. If they had provided an alternative in '92 and went into principled opposition they would most likely have long eclipsed FG. But personal careers and egos got in the way and they propped up the very party they swore to oppose. and in the next election they lost half the seats again. And they have yet to recover the trust of their ex supporters. You're stuff about one party states is just childish, democracy means the freedom to critisise parties you don't agree with. I won't support fg becuase they are no alternative at all to ff, they are identical. Labour are going to support them for pretty much nothing in return. Why should I support them?

by hardtokill Sat May 28, 2005 23:31

Today on RTE I heard a Labour Party spokesperson say that they wanted to go into coalition with "like-minded people". I took that to mean that their mindset was similiar to that of Fine Gael. Which means that they share the Fine Gael position on such things as 'law & order'. We only have to look at previous Fine Gael /Labour Coalitions to see where that is going to lead us.

So we can assume that they share the Fine Gael position on ASBOs. Hardly surprising when they were the arse-end of the 1973 - 1977 Coalition which gave us the Garda Heavy Gang.

Another Frankinstein Monster takes shape.

by Juan Pablo - Labour party "boo, hiss, grrrr" Sun May 29, 2005 00:06

as a labour party member myself unable to attend conference for examination reasons, i am disappointed that the motion was passed, we will not do well out of it, i believe projections from a source i cant remember(possibly politics.ie) was that fine gael will win up to 25 seats out of the arrangement whilst labour will only win up to 5 and will be put into big trouble in a number of marginal seats.
however the membership has spoken,but i personally dont believe that an FG/Lab coalition will get the numbers to make up coalition even with the greens onboard, the scene is set for FF/PD to remain in gov. with a much reduced majority (possibly minority gov. with independant FF tds).
overall nevermind the nonsense predictions of this being the death of the labour party, forgot those crazy sp heads foaming at the mouth that they *might* win a seat at the expense of labour, if Labour dont win in the next election then pat rabbitte will have to resign and maybe then we might get a labour leader who wont be willing to jump into bed with FG at the earliest oppurtunity.

by - Sun May 29, 2005 14:48

compromise conformity assimilation

read connolly!he would tell you a few things about "compromise" and "pragmatism"!!!!

NO COMPROMISES!
NO SELL OUT!

by left-winger Sun May 29, 2005 15:21

The reason why left wing people in Ireland look forward to Clare Daly's election to the Dail is because 1 Socialist Party TD in the past 8 years has done more than the entire conservative weak Labour Parliamentary Party (21 TDs and 5 Senators). It'll be great to have 2 or more principled socialists in the Dail to give voice to the increasing anger at the right-wing privatisation and neo-liberal agenda which Labour support.

Today I heard that Rabbitte was claiming that Labour are in line with "mainsteam social democracy in Europe". In other words Labour want Rabbitte to be the Irish Blair, Person, Rasmussen or Schroeder! Blair launched a disgusting war on the Iraqi people for profit, Person and Schroeder are implementing many "reforms" against social welfare and working conditions. Rasmussen sent Danish troops into Iraq and is also implementing "reforms". Rasmussen even spoke at the Conference! Today the Labour party "overwhelmingly" supported the neo-liberal anti-democratic EU Constitution. Even the so-called "radicals" in Labour support the EU. Labour are not a left-wing party. Any "left" in Labour should not be there. Leave NOW if you're genuine. If you don't leave now you are obviously more concerned with your career prospects.

by left Sun May 29, 2005 16:57

I saw the conference vote on coalition. About 70-80% voted for coalition pact with FG. The remainding 20% or so judging by the contributions at the debate are made up of people who either arguing that it would be tactically better to stay out then do a deal with FG or those who would be open to doing a deal wioth FF. Not one person argued against coalition in principle.

this, as well as the massive endorsement of the the EU constitution, is an indication of the significant shift to the right of the labour party. Previously those arguing against coalition did so on a principled basis now its just tactical.

The Labour conference is a huge confirmation that the party has completely emptied out of left wingers and socialists and is incapable of being a force for change. genuine people (if there are any) still left in the labour party should leave it.

by Chris Bond - Labour youth/ Labour party (pers cap) Sun May 29, 2005 23:25 chrisbonn_irl_2000 at hotmail dot com Tallaght, Dublin

Having just returned from the conference i felt very much a part of a united and strong political party. I was against rabbites motion, im in favour of an Labour led left wing government. I would have the same reservations as Tommy Broughan with regard to Fine Gael. We are a democratic party we allow scope for diversity of ideology and we`re not afraid to publicly show our internal debates, us the members decide on the policies and the leadership of the party. UCD Labours motion which called for support by the campaign launched by sinantrainal in 2003 with regard to alleged abuses by the coca cola company was carried with the apporval of about 80% of the conference floor. When i start canvassing for Labour in 2007, i will be canvassing for labour alone, and i will not transfer to any conservative party be it Fianna Fail, Fine Gael or the Progressive Democrats. I personally disagree with Rabbites strategy but i respect the democratic decision made by the party members, i know that Pat Rabbite is in it for genuine change and im very proud to be in the party and im pretty sure the same applys to the majority of people in the party, be they socialist, social democratic., pro coalition anti coalition or other.

by UCD LY member Sun May 29, 2005 23:35

fair play to yez all

by The invigilator Sun May 29, 2005 23:43

''Labour are a right-wing careerist party
by Socialist Party member (personal capacity)''.

''Labour are no alternative by left-winger''

Oisin kelly please post your real name, we can spot you from a mile away.

or at least come up with decent psudonoms.

by Tom Mon May 30, 2005 13:05

Went down to conference, great atmosphere, solid debate, all decisions made were democratic. Disseapointed with vote for FG pact, will find it very hard to distribute elections leaflets with "vote FG no2" on them. WON'T be distributing any leaflets that attack SF/Greens/SP.
Pleased with Shannon Airport motion, Labour in government = immediate withdrawl of U.S. military.
I feel most of the older members are socialist, but strongly believe in supporting the party leader. Am I wrong?

by Curious out of towner Mon May 30, 2005 13:17

Did FG discuss a pact with Labour at their conference and if so was there a vote.

by Tom Mon May 30, 2005 13:48

"Labour in government = immediate withdrawl of U.S. military"

Ho, Ho, Ho. Would you not take up a job as a comedy writer?

by Louise - Labour Youth Mon May 30, 2005 14:26

Motion 119 and Addendum. - Passed by a large majority

Motion 119. reads:
Conference notes the ongoing use of Shannon Airport as a U.S. military refueling base thus facilitating the continued maiming and murder of innocent human beings, particularly in Iraq.

Conference mandates the Labour Party negotiators and the National Executive after the next General Election to demand an immediate withdrawal of the U.S. military from Shannon Airport as an essential part of any Programme for Government that they would negotiate.

Proposing Branch : Labour Youth

Addendum reads:
Conference further mandates the Labour Party when in government to safeguard the employment conditions of workers at Shannon Airport and ensure the future viability of the Airport.
Proposing Branch : Ennis, Clare (Clare)



Some people take politics seriously and dont waste their times with pseudonyms and potshots

by J. Dunne Mon May 30, 2005 17:11

I refer to Saturday's comment on the Labour Party Conference from 'Socialist Party member' in which he states that he "Particulary enjoyed Declan Bree's asseration that he didn't care who Labour go into Government with."

The debate was covered live on RTE television and 'Socialist Party member' will be very much aware that Declan Bree didn't make that statement.

I am at a loss to understand why any Socialist party member would be prepared to tell bare faced lies to promote their case. Joe Higgins certainly wouldn't behave in such a manner.

by Tim Mon May 30, 2005 17:25

Perhaps John you might inform us as to what way Comrade Bree actually voted then. Its obvious he is quite open to coalition with Fianna Fail as he is currently part of a Labour-Fianan Fail coalition on both Sligo Borough Council and Sligo County Council.

by dozzey Mon May 30, 2005 17:32

It seems glaringly obvious that the Labour party will lose any resonance of respectability after the next general election.

Despite Pat Rabbitte quoting Frank Clusky it does seem that the former democratic left and workers party guru will do anything to become tanaiste. Like Frank Ross he will do anything including leaving labour party principles at the door in an affort to share power with a traditional large farmers party. Fine gael are a far cry from Labour and it is laughable that they are pre-empting the election by saying that they intend to share power. Watch Labour lose yet more ground to sinn fein - if rabbitte was actually interested in developing the socialist left and by creating a more social emphasis he might try taking a leaf out of sinn fein's book and stay in opposition until they are large enough to asume a majority government....oh and stick to their policies and principles. The next electon will see both labour and Fine Gael be eclipsed and embarassed as sinn fein gobble up the left vote and fianna fail will gobble up the undecided centre voters while the pd's take the conservative vote -
Ireland has never had it so good - we're a thriving economy with nearly full employment - our social welfare system is among the most liberal in the western world- the only problem is the rich kid champagne socialists who will forever bitch about how bad things are in socialist Dublin 4.

Forget labour - pat rabbitte is nothing more than a pun peddling meglomaniac - everytime he goes to speak i expect to hear canned laughter in the background... the end is nigh for labour - and about time too - they don't know where they stand....people want a clear definition of who to vote for - what sort of half baked wishy washy programme for government is going to have a low tax (fine gael) and high social spending (labour) - Pat Rabbitte can't even tell how much free childcare is going to cost the country or where he's going to get this money and keeping taxes stagnant....wishy washy pick and mix politics that's all labour stand for...

What we need is clann na poblachta...

by Sticky Rabbitte Mon May 30, 2005 18:52

Rabbitte stew

by Gaz - -(A)- Mon May 30, 2005 19:20

interestingly enough a poll on labours own website shows tha 80% disagree with the election strategy and 67% disagree with the position on the EU (figures migh change obviously)

by DNE Oracle Mon May 30, 2005 20:06

Sure Broughan only whinging as Killian Forde or Larry O'Toole of SF will take his seat. He is trying to position himself to the left in Lab, which to be honest wouldn't be hard, hoping that the left vote in DNE stays with him.

Incidentally it is transfers from the SP that will decide that battle.

by DN oracle Mon May 30, 2005 21:07

Currently in Dublin North it's Fianna Fail 2, Labour 1, Greens 1. At next election Labour's Sean Ryan is standing down. It's highly likely that the Socialist Party will win that seat especially now that Labour are supporting Fine Gael. If either Fianna Fail TD looses it will be a gain for Fine Gael thanks to Labour transfers in my opinion. This will probably happen up and down the country where Fine Gael win back seats with Labour help.

by Martian Tue May 31, 2005 14:12

I've just landed on your planet and there is something I can't fathom. Pat Rabbitte has made a big deal out of not going into coalition with FF/PD but yet the other wing of the Labour movement (the unions) are being used as a mudguard for the neoliberal agenda of those parties through partnership. They have faciliated a low tax area and low levels of social spending. Go figure. So why not cement that relationship?

by jeffrey praeger Tue May 31, 2005 14:56

The reason why Labour currently are so opposed to a coalition with FF but want to prop the blueshirts is rooted in culture. While formerly in the 20s, 30s and 40s Labour was comprised of and supported by the same type of people who made up and voted for FF (hence their support for FF in the 1930s), the party since the 1960s has been dominated by middle class professionals who are "the same kind of people" as the blueshirts. It's electoral base has also become more middle class (to the cost ironically of FG) and that explains it. Nothing to do with socialism. They just don't like FFers: Wrong schools, bad suits, builders (as opposed to architects!), publicans (as opposed to restaurateurs), and so on. And yet the left in this country are engaged in this endless and meaningless debate about Labour and coalition. Labour and FG are made for each other.