Israel v Zimbabwe

by farpoint Wed Mar 23, 2005 14:27

.

by John Wed Mar 23, 2005 14:33

If I understand correctly, Ireland are due to play a home international match with China very soon. What protests are planned?

by farpoint Wed Mar 23, 2005 14:36

how many UN resolutions are China in breach of atm??

by Ruri Wed Mar 23, 2005 14:45

I don't know John.What will happen? Another ill conceived botched protest like the laughable one I saw bumbling down the road last Saturday On O'Connell street. Another one of them would be fine, nice stroll around the streets-few soundbytes, and I'm sure you would all fit into the Wellcome Inn after.

In fairness, at least with the iraq conflict you had a half sane reason to march around aimlessly listening to people calling for (admittedly frighteningly right wing) journos to be sacked.

Leave football where it belongs, the game of the people, for the people-Israeli, Irish, Chinese, Palestinian-whoever.

Find something that you can actually make a real and valuable difference about and hitch your misguided sensibilities and half-arsed organisational skills to that.

Calling for the cancelling of a football match is insane. When I went to Moscow three years ago to see the Ireland vRussia game I didn't see any insane protests in support of Chechen terrorists by asking for the match to be cancelled, because I'm sure Russia and Chechnya is something you cud protest about too, no.

But then again, Russia's probably a bit too complex for you to protest over-wouldn't be quite too sure of the issues there now-would you.?

If it's not all over Bob Fisk columns or satellite news-face it-the level of knowledge is pitiful.

As for the game, I reckon we'll do them 1-3.

by tuppence Wed Mar 23, 2005 15:04

Tell that to Rachel Corries parents. Tell it to the BBC the next time the Brits are playing Zimbabwe. I think thats the points that are being made here. Israel is a terrorist state in breach of multiple UN resoluions, Chechen war is a seperatist war. No comparison. And I agree, Ireland should not be going to play in Israel.

Just my 2 cents.

by indywatcher Wed Mar 23, 2005 15:08

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by farpoint Wed Mar 23, 2005 16:01

There is a long history of sporting events getting dargged into the political arena - when it suits.

The USA not going to the Olympics in Moscow etc. I think its a valid point.

by farpoint Wed Mar 23, 2005 16:30

Have you noticed anytime there is ever any critiscism of Israel some flyby comes in and destroys the thread with name calling.

If I was the Ireland team I'd be shitting meself at the moment with half the american navy heading towards the Gulf. Nuke carriers the works.

by Paddy Collins - Ind Wed Mar 23, 2005 16:55

We have to play a secong leg against Israel in Lansdown Road, I think anyone wanting to show solidarity with the Palestinian people should try to get along to the game and bring a lot of palestinian flags or one enourmas one, so that when the match is broadcast back in Israel and the occupied teritories the Palestinians will see that the ordinary Irish people support their struggle for freedom.

Also, it is precisely becase football is the "sport of the people" that it should be involved in political struggles. It is the very masses who could tell you more about David Beckhams metatarsil, than they could about the proposed EU Constitution or indeed the various ministers of the State, that need to be targeted and politicised.

by farpoint Wed Mar 23, 2005 17:43

I somehow think there might be an oh-so convenient break in the Israeli TV transmission if that happened. They wouldnt show it. Better to stay away!!

by Ali H. Wed Mar 23, 2005 18:04

your idea to distribute flags outside the ground is an excellent one. It would also have the fringe benefit of unsettling the Israeli team and supporters which might give us an additional edge as these guys are no pushover by all accounts.

by tom Wed Mar 23, 2005 18:39

I don't agree with the IPSC call to boycott the Israeli game in Dublin . The match is an ideal opportunity to raise the Palestinian issue . Flags , banners and headscarves at the match ,a picket of the Israeli team's hotel -follow them around and shame them , that's the sort of thing that's needed.
Personally I don't like football very much ,but this is one game I'm definitely going to. The IPSC are out of touch with public feeling on this issue ;they should cop themselves on and be more flexible in their tactics.

by mise Wed Mar 23, 2005 18:51

Like it has already been pointed out ; protests would be simply be blocked out by the media, cameras would not be trained on the crowd, chants would be dubbed over ala thebush inaugration. Can you see RTE falling foul of the Israeli all-purpose anti Semitic ray gun?

On the other hand the publicity from a total boycott would be ginormous.

The racist apartheid gov in SA was brought down by sports boycotts primarily. Why not boycott Israel?

Who is the ISPC or whatever the last poster said?

by Paul Baynes Wed Mar 23, 2005 20:41

I think he meant the IPSC - The Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign - see www.ipsc.ie

by Leila K Wed Mar 23, 2005 21:28

Quote from Farpoint: "I somehow think there might be an oh-so convenient break in the Israeli TV transmission if that happened. They wouldnt show it. Better to stay away!!"

Have you ever been to Israel?
True, it's a state which is guilty of the most appalling treatment of Palestinians. Murder, War crimes, Occupation, the lot..
But let's deal with the facts here.
It also happens to have a relatively free press/TV culture.
The home leg in Dublin is an excellent opportunity to heighten awareness (both at home and abroad) of the Palestinian cause by displaying massive Palestinian flags/banners and holdig protests outside the match.
For what it's worth, I think that RTE really is unlikely not to broadcast images of the crowd just because of the type of flags they are waving.

by Use your brains Wed Mar 23, 2005 22:53

[isreal] It also happens to have a relatively free press/TV culture.

Unlike EVERY Arab nation..perhaps you guys are on the wrong side...unlesss of course you support oppression, no free press, no free elections, the abuse and execution of gays, the abuse of women, the use of children as weapons and a culture of death.

by a random fellow travellor of the IPSC Wed Mar 23, 2005 22:56

"a picket of the Israeli team's hotel -follow them around and shame them , that's the sort of thing that's needed"

Oh yeah, thats gonna look great isn't it? Whatever about using the *match* as a protest point (and a dignified protest at that), harrassing the Israeli team, who are NOT responsible for the state terrorist actions of their leaders (well as far as I know none of them have been elected to the Knesset) will backfire.

Now just cos the Beeb gets all indignant about cricket and Zimbabwe (why? Mugabe is taking rich white people's land - the BBC is run by rich white people - you can bet your arse if that wasn't a factor, we'd never hear about Zimbabwe's appalling human rights record) doesn't mean that its 'right'. Although I do think that the FAI (as if they ever would) should have boycotted the matches in protest - that didn't happen and a few supporters of the IPSC not showing up at Landsdowne is hardly gonna make any difference now is it? You really think people would notice?

The point to be made at such a protest would be to show solidarity with the Palestinians, NOT to denigrate Israeli footballers who are just doing their job afterall. It's not like they are the ones building the seperation wall, or shooting Palestinians etc.

Also, I'm just wondering how many Palestinains [in exile or in Israel/OPT] will be watching the *Israeli* football team play?

by John Wed Mar 23, 2005 23:06

Considering there a few arabs on the team, how should they be treated?

The sporting boycott on SA made sense becuase it was the expression of the state. The Cricket team and the Springboks did not have black players, so they truely represented their state. In contrast the Israeli national teams represents more Arabs than their share of the Israeli population deserve.

by Devil Dog Thu Mar 24, 2005 03:05

Had a Black out-half, Errol Tobias, when they played England in 1984...and I think, Ireland in 1981, but not sure on that ...so would that have been alright?

by farpointer Thu Mar 24, 2005 06:05

I think that is what they call tokenism Dog. Any "arab" on the Israeli team would be a similar gesture.

If my fading memory is correct, at one stage SA wouldnt come to play England because they had a black player.

re Use your head, you point to the killing of gays and the use of children as suicide bombers, I don't know about the first and I presume you are referring to the "retarded" chap that the Kikes got to walk up to a checkpoint - where there just happened to be 15 invited camera crews from all around the world in attendance.

And the latest "suicide bomber" who just happened to blow up 3 IDF on the day before yet another world court judgement.

Every time the Israelis are up against the wall ---boom there goes another convenient suicide bomb.

by observer Thu Mar 24, 2005 09:25

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by Adrian Dempsey Thu Mar 24, 2005 15:11

Sport and politics should never be mixed and to hear the above sad shower trying to do so is a joke.
Does the Israeli team represent their government, No.
Simple as that.

by mise Thu Mar 24, 2005 18:40

Did the SA rugby team represent their government?

Why did the USA boycott the Olympics?

by Devil Dog Thu Mar 24, 2005 19:27

was it not ok to play rugby against the Springboks but ok to play football against the USSR?

by Palestinains ar Nice People, No, really... Thu Mar 24, 2005 19:41

These are the same people who can justify the Munich Olympics massacre of the israeli weightlifiting team by the Peace Activist group known as Black September

by A10 Fri Mar 25, 2005 01:07

Finally the myth of the Irish being liked everywhere in the world will be blown up.
The Isrealis hate our guts!!!And proably rightly so!We can blame the SinnFein/PIRA great alliance statements with the PLO and Palestinian govt groups.
So behave yourselves out there as the Isrealis are only to glad to crack heads or kick Paddy arse with little or no provacation.

by mise Fri Mar 25, 2005 06:28

Thats right, they are more at home with the loyalist terror gangs, whom they readily supplied arms in the 70's and 80's. The Israeli flag can be seen flying in more than one proddy estate that I know of.

Dont forget they have to come here and play.

Any here remeber the Shankill butchers?

Did any of their victims families get to the Whitehouse or get sponsored by Coca Cola?

by mise Fri Mar 25, 2005 06:32

We are hated by the Israelis?

I consider that an honour.

I also think we should boycott everyting Israeli if that's the case also. We should not be supporting terrorism.

BTW - Its Israel , not Isreal - illiterate.

by punchus pilot Fri Mar 25, 2005 09:36

Isn't it a bit ironic that the holy catholic Irish team and it's supporters are going to play football against the people that sold and crucified their "lord and saviour" - on the anniversary thereof to boot (no pun intended). Jesus will be turning in his grave....oh hang on he left that didnt he? I don't suppose he will be watching the match will he?

by Ironic irony Fri Mar 25, 2005 18:32

"he people that sold and crucified their "lord and saviour""

These same people also gave birth the the Lord and Savior...the Apostles were of those people too!
Isn't it ironic that some Christians hate Jews when the Lord and Savior was an Orthodox jew himself?

(meanwhile, guaranteed, not one of the members of the israeli team was present during the Roman murder of the Savior---bigots would have boycotted Jesus becaus of his religion.)

by Paddy Collins - Ind Fri Mar 25, 2005 20:50

Please refrain from this sort of nonsense, one can, in fact, view the Israeli state as an illegitimate, oppresive, terrorist entity without also believing that all jewish people, because somebody somewhere along the line nailed jesus to a cross, are evil, murderous etc.

Don't muddy an otherwise important discussion by introducing antiqauted notions of religious rivalry.

On the more serious note, is there any form of active co-ordination for the Israeli visit to Ireland? If not can we please get our collective fingers out and put them to good use?

by toneore Fri Mar 25, 2005 21:31 toneore at eircom dot net

How come the Israeli shirt shown here and on the http://www.ipsc.ie/ web site has a number "1" on it? Why is it offset from the centre? A number 1 shirt - when have you last seen a number 1 shirt on a soccer player in an international game?

Oh, I see, it originally was a numbr "10". By the judicious use of Microsoft Paint, in pixeling out the "0" the self-righteous, fellow travellers of terrorism and haters of Israel are now back on track:

"CAMPAIGNERS seeking a boycott of Ireland's soccer fixtures with Israel have blundered over their attempts to smear the Israeli team by depicting a replica shirt with the words: "say no to apartheid" written over it.

It has emerged that the number 10 shirt depicted in the campaigners' boycott message is worn by Walid Badir, one of three Palestinian Arab players on the Israeli team and one of the most popular stars in Israel.

The Ireland-Palestine Solidarity Campaign has admitted it has no "no idea" the number 10 shirt is worn by the Maccabi Haifa mid-fielder who is one of Israel's most famous soccer players. "

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1361815&issue_id=12230

by irish cultural attache in san francisco Fri Mar 25, 2005 21:49 irishculturalattache at gmail dot com

These Solidarity People are, as toneore states, supporters of terrorism and have a political agenda that is nothing to do with peace, love and understanding. They're a disgrace to the Irish. Hardly surprising, considering that Richad Haas has likened $inn Fein IRA leader Adams to Arafat - an obstacle to peace.

Remember the Difference Between Bloody Friday and Good Friday, today and what terrorism has done to innocent Irish and Israelis.

Everyone, go to the match or watch it and cheer the Irish! Respect Israel and the Jewish People worldwide.

Remember the Difference Between Bloody Friday and Good Friday

by eastern eye Fri Mar 25, 2005 22:06

Why the hell do you think all these protests in front of the embassy / boycotting the games / come to the games with Palestinian flags will help or change anything?
Yap. it will be seen on T.V.
Yap. If some Palestinians will watch T.V they will know you are with them.
So?
Anyone with an internet account already knows you are with them.
Or do you think that the whole conflict will be solved due to a protest in front of an embassy and boycotting a game?

Think of England before Ireland was independent and free: If some french guys would stand infornt of the British embassy in Paris while there where games between England and France, would the English tell themselves, 'Wow. the French don't like us. there are 15 men standing infront of the embassy in support of Ireland and threstens to boycott the games. lets leave Ireland at once!'
Or better, nowdays: would England banish from North Ireland because some French would threaten to boycott the games - even boycott English products. Would than end the conflict?
I don't think so.
(I dont mean to compare between England and Israel - every conflict to itself, not to mention, sorry, that the English at Ireland where far cruel, opress and wicked than what we are, we have yet to learn in order to stand at the English's place).

A10 and mise,
Yes, Irish people ARE welcome in Israel. I don't know if there was great deal of the game in Ireland - in Israel definitely there is. On news reviews on T.V you could see Irish football fans making drinking competitions against Israelis at the main park in Tel-Aviv.
The Irish fans couldn't pick better date to come: it was a carnival day today, in a holyday that drinking is one of its traditions.

Believe it or not, but for many years there had been a great solidarity between Ireland and Israel, at least of the Israeli side, due to a feeling that both nations had suffered much, and since Ireland didn't have AntiSemitist history.

Punchus Pilot,
If Jesus lived now, he would applaud to the Israeli team.

by too lazy for anarchy Sat Mar 26, 2005 04:05

the irish soccer team have often played matches against oppressive regimes Chile in the seventies and Iran + Saudi more recently. there has also been several fixtures against the USA. of these matches the visit to santiago is the only one i am aware of that caused any public dissent. Israel is only in UEFA to give it an extra vote and is outside Europe. Why is there not an organized boycott of Israeli produce ? i don't know there has been fifty seven years to do that. i don't see this as being the most productive way to bring the Israeli state to task. country versus country is not a very good format for sport anyway.

by Support statehood and not destruction Sat Mar 26, 2005 04:43

"bring the Israeli state to task"

Why not bring the Palestinians to task...if they truely want a state of their own, and not the destruction of israel, why not demonstrate against them to force them to get on with the business of statehood? After 60 years of war, Israel is still here..."palestine " is still born...
Israel has been fighting for its survival, the Arab nations are fighting for more land. The palestinians have been used as pawns. Never under Jordanian or Egyptian occupation did the Arab nations ever offer them their own state. Instead, they have kept them in "refugee" camps, impoverished and uneducated, raising generations of angry young men to be used as cannon fodder. The obscenity of strapping bombs to their children for the purpose of killing civilian women and children, as if somehow that would get them their state.
Boycotting Israel would mean boycotting Intel (which employs more Arab execs then Israeli execs) boycotting AMD and Fujitsu which both use Israeli technology. Boycotting the medical advances made by Israelis along with other technological advances. A fool's game.

by mise Sat Mar 26, 2005 08:40

"The United States is an illegitimate country . . . just like the bandit state of Israel - the Jews have no right to be there, it belongs to the Palestinians. That country, the United States, belongs to the red man, the American Indian . . . It's actually a shame to be a so-called American because everybody living there is . . . an invader."


Bobby Fischer speaking yesteday.

Icelandic Citizen and World Grand Master Chess Champion

The usual suspects will probably line up so say that "he has an axe to grind" - that doesn't mean it's not a legitimate statement.

Mr Fischer has asked for all his Chess records be amended to show that they were won by an Icelander.

Im not sure, I don't go in for religion, but isn't that a jewish name?

by avi harari Sat Mar 26, 2005 13:54

Boycotting the football team of the only Jewish state of the Jewish people wouldn't be anti-Semitic at all, in any shape or form, would it? How odd that the only thing we Jews are guilty of is defending ourselves against latter day Nazis, who want to kill us all...How come Arabs are perfectly safe living in Israel, but Jews are murdered living in Arab areas? What does that tell you about the relative cultures of the two peoples - never mind the propaganda.

Anyway, I would say 2-1 to Israel in the match. We're better than we've ever been.

by jeff Sat Mar 26, 2005 14:39

I hate football. But I don't hate Jews or Israel.

I hate Israeli government policy, and the fact that they have a free licence amongst their troops in Palestine.

But football is football, otherwise we should boycott nearly half the worlds nations; China, Saudi, Egypt, Russia, the list is endless.

And Israelis do not hate tthe Irish, ssome of them do, but not all. Weisman or Herzgog, memory temporailly fails, either name was an Israeli President, but originally from Dublin.

See above link, it seems we are being welcome.

by eastern eye Sat Mar 26, 2005 15:55

He was born in Belfast, and studied at the Welsly College in Dublin (please forgive me if i misspell it - i saw it on a hebrew site).
He was the 6th president of the State of Israel in the years 1983-1993 (he was elected twice for the job).

As I wrote above, you people ARE welcome.
Irish people have a stigma of a merry folk that likes to drink. its not a bad one.

by :-) - shalom ve pasach! Sun Mar 27, 2005 23:54

that Israel is a european nation, though funded and politically swayed by the USA, it is predominantly populated by the offspring of European settlers who wouldn't be there if the Shoah had not occured.
As the richest non EU state of the Mediterranean, Israel stands much to gain by closer cultural and political adhesion to its European legacy and taking its part as an equal in European and mediterranean affairs. As the most aggressive nation of the mediterranean it stands much to lose in its apparant disregard for European values and preference for US fundamentalist christian politics and militarism.

Though the Irish jewish community has shrunk dramatically and consistently since the days when Herzog lived in Portobello, and Briscoe was lord mayor of Dublin, there is still hope that those of the pacifist and enlightened traditions of Irish jews may help their community in the state of Israel "return" to the peaceful co-existence of the past.
For the influence of Israelis who are disgusted by the war and occupations must never be underestimated.

Israel is the child of Europe, the child of the 12 stars. = come home now please, we need you and want you.

by Resist Propaganda Mon Mar 28, 2005 07:36

"As the richest non EU state of the Mediterranean, Israel stands much to gain by closer cultural and political adhesion to its European le"

The majority of Israel's population is not european. Over 1 million Jews were expelled from Arab nations. Most went to Israel. Demographically, Israel is mostly made of of Sephardic and other Asian jews, as well as African Jews and Sabras. Not counting of course 20% of the population which is of Arab decent...

>>Jewish 80% (Europe/America-born 32%, Israel-born 21%, Africa-born 14.5%, Asia born 12.5%), non-Jewish 20% (mostly Arab)

by mise Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:17

Hang on a minute.

Israel has illegal "undeclared" Nuclear Weapons and is NOT a signatory to the Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty, unlike Iran who does not have Nuclear Weapons and is a signatory. But THEY are a terrorist state

Israel has illegal Chemical and Biolgical weapons, much to the chagrin of it's neighbours who have been demonised brutalised and attacked - and they don't have CB weapons.

Israel in in violation of a raft of UN resolutions, which it's neighbours are not.

Israel is an Apartheid nation See: The wall.

Israel's immigrant workers are treated no better than slaves, and there has been recent revelations about the sleazier side of Israeli society with the trade in Sex Slavery.

Israel is not a beacon of Democracy and tolerance. It's prime minister is a war criminal. A great many of its cabinet are religious fanatacists. Not unlike Iran - but they worship a different god.

Its terrorist army regularly shoot school children, UN workers, and peace activists.

No other country in the world has such a bad Human Rights record.

Why do we tolerate Israel?

by mise Mon Mar 28, 2005 12:38

ps : I dont see any Russian stats there. More BS.

by Noel Mon Mar 28, 2005 14:57

'No other country in the world has such a bad Human Rights record'.

Emmm...

'Why do we tolerate Israel?'
Yeah, why do you Jew haters tolerate Israel?

by mise Mon Mar 28, 2005 20:21

Criticim of Mugabe's or Quadaffi's or Assad's regime would imply that I'm a Muslim hater?

Critiscim of the Chinese regime would imply that I'm a Tao hater?

Criticism of Japan means I'm anti Shinto?

Criticism of the Greek or Russians would mean I hate Orthodox Chritians?

Criticism of the Irish or British or French governments would make me a Christan hater?

Talking through your arse again noel.

by Enemies of Peace Mon Mar 28, 2005 21:42

It's not the criticism, it's the obscene focus on israel. Israelis routinely criticise their government, as do all folks living in democracies without the fear of disappearing.
Let's hear some critisicm of the palestinians for a change...
It would be more constructive. hamas, Islamic Jihad, PFLP, Tanzim Fatah et al don't deserve undying support.
They're the real enemies of peace

by Noel Mon Mar 28, 2005 21:57

Criticism of China or Libya or Syria or Zimbabwe would be welcome. However, these true abusers of human rights stand unaccused by the Jew haters of this site.

btw Mise, Mugabe's Zimbabwe is less Islamic than Israel.
Do some reading son, I'd recommend Martin Luther King.

'And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is God's own truth'.

by Barry Shaw Mon Mar 28, 2005 22:58

In the last minute of the game, came the final embarrassment for the Ireland Palestine Soldarity campaigners. But Irish and Israeli eyes were smiling.
Israel was awash last weekend by a green invasion.
Thousands of smiling Irish soccer fans drank their way to the Bloomfield Stadium in Jaffa to cheer on the boys in green.

This was the first major international soccer game that Israel had hosted since the start of the latest Palestinian terror campaign way back in the year 2000.

The estimated four thousand Irish supporters came despite the futile appeal from the Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign for them to boycott their trip to Israel.

Part of their argument was to accuse Israel of being a racist state where Arabs have no rights.

The campaigners scored an own-goal when they paraded an Israeli soccer shirt with the number ten on the back.

The wearer of the number ten shirt on the Israeli national squad is Walid Badir, an Israeli Arab.

The Irish guests were received warmly on their arrival in Israel. At the airport they were handed little gifts bearing the colours of Ireland and Israel.
Where ever they went they were greeted warmly. The streets of Tel Aviv were bannered with the green of Ireland and welcome posters were everywhere.

Much is made of drunken football supporters and the damage and violence they cause.
The army of Irish supporters really enjoy their drink, but they were always good natured and good humoured,and Israelis joined them in the Irish pubs.
The atmosphere was hardly one of rivalry, more like chivalry as both Irish and Israeli supporters shared a drink and a joke.

The Irish team, safely anchored in Herzlia were bemused and amused by the children and mothers in fancy dress when they visited the local mall. They had arrived at the height of Purim, a riotous festival of fun and laughter.

The game began badly for Israel when a double display of poor defending gave the Irish a gift of a goal within the first four minutes.

The Israeli team never really came into the game until late into the second half.

As the clock ticked to ninety minutes and full time all, literally, looked lost for the thousands of Israeli supporters.

Then, in the last minute of the game, came the final embarrassment for the Ireland Palestine Soldarity campaigners.

Yet another Arab player in Israel's national squad, Abbas Suwan, blasted a low shot that even the great goalkeeper, Shay Given, could not prevent from bulging the back of the net.

Many of the visitors expressed amazement that they found the true face of Israel to be much different to the one shown to them by their local and national media.

Many of the local Israel's, who had been bracing themselves for an invasion of drunken soccer louts, were surprised to discover thousands of smiling and likeable Irish folk who, like Israelis, have a true love of life.

And so, honours shared and mutual respect ended a weekend exhibition of friendship and good sportsmanship between the Irish and the Israelis.

Ireland and Israel - a love story.

by Kelly Mon Mar 28, 2005 23:21

Those of you that want to make a political statement against Israel and its Jewish citizens can always follow in the footsteps of the PLO/PA and take the athletes hostage and blow them up in giant fireballs.

Arafat certainly made an impression when his followers did that in Berlin. As electronic intercepts have since proven that endevor's financing was arrainged by the current dictator, Abbas.

by Ali H. Tue Mar 29, 2005 13:37

You seem to forget that Abbas Suan has been on the receiving end of repeated racist abuse from his own "fans", while playing for Israel, because he is a Palestinian.

by Ali H. Tue Mar 29, 2005 13:56

The figures quoted for the ethnic origin of Israelis are incorrect as since 1987 when the population was 4.3M is has risen to 6.2M in 2005. The vast majority of this increase is accounted for by Russian and other eastern block immigrants some 750,000 of whom entered Israel in the period to 1989 alone. Interestingly the available figures do not reflect the massive increase in the immigrant population since 1987. The deliberate plantation of Russians and others into the occupied territories has been done with the dual aim of consolidating the hold over the same territories and also keeping the Palestinian population low as a proportion of overall population even though it is growing at a much more rapid rate than the main body of the Israeli population, a fact which is of great concern for the Zionist project.

by mise Tue Mar 29, 2005 14:04

Quick quote from Bobby Fischer (Jew), then I'm off for me din-dins

"The United States is an illegitimate country . . . just like the bandit state of Israel - the Jews have no right to be there, it belongs to the Palestinians. That country, the United States, belongs to the red man, the American Indian . . . It's actually a shame to be a so-called American because everybody living there is . . . an invader."

by jeff Tue Mar 29, 2005 15:19

Just because people wish to condemn Israeli government/military actions in the West Bank does not make them Jew haters.

Just because that Arab goal scorer has received racist abuse from fans does not mean all Israelis are racist.

Nonetheless,I hate it when people glibly ignore a human rights record many would find wanting.

Overall I would like to see peace over there, but glibly ignoring genuine grieviences is not going to help.

Barry Shaws "news report" seems to mock people for protesting those human rights abuses. This does not help. If you were in the West Bank and saw a five year oild girl deliberatly shot in the face, would you stand thee mocking her family for "complaining"?


oh dear...

by Noel Tue Mar 29, 2005 16:08

"There was no Holocaust. The Jews are liars. It's time we took off the kid gloves with these parasites."

Now remind me why Fischer is a poster boy round these parts?

by eatern eye Tue Mar 29, 2005 17:33

He's an American Christian of German origin.
His parents belong to a Christian stream that saves the Shabath, that's why he's mistaken to be Jewish.

The name 'Fischer' shows nothing - it means fisher in German.

Bobby Fischer is a damn AntiSemetist / Jews hater / Israel hater, that blames the Jews in his career's failure, claims that the Holocaust has never happened, and speaks about a worldwide Jewish conspiracy. he is a preety big chauvinist as well.
I really don't understand why you hold him a great philosopher and quote him so much.

by R. Isible Tue Mar 29, 2005 17:45

And he's very openly and obviously an anti-Semite. He's also very openly and obviously completely irrelevant as any source of thought on Israel, Palestine and the Middle East, being merely a near-autistic chess genius.

There seems to be an underlying assumption that if Fischer is/isn't a "Jew" then that validates/invalidates any statement he makes. All those thinking along those lines (on whichever side) are covert racists and irrationalists.

by jeff Tue Mar 29, 2005 19:13

"I really don't understand why you hold him a great philosopher and quote him so much."

I really don't understand why certain people continue to ignore genuine suffering on behalf of Palestinians, instead opting to paint peopler who do as racist Nazi Islamic fundamentalists.No, we don't , the majorety of us, feel that Bobby Fischer is a great person. What irks me is that people like Noel will often use people like Fischer to bypass any commentry on human rights abuses.

It sucks that Palestinian children have been shot, homes demolished and other such activities, and none bats an eyelid. Suicide bombers are bad, but so are Israeli actions.

There, I have condemned the suicide bombers; they are angry young men but they still should not murder. Now, will any of the right wingers condemn the atriocities perpetrated in Jenin, trhe demolishing of homes, the confiscation of Palestinian land? No, I doubt it; they are too good for that, no doubt.

by Peace is a better otion then Intifada (war) Tue Mar 29, 2005 20:12

"Now, will any of the right wingers condemn the atriocities perpetrated in Jenin"

Certainly!
It was an atrocity for the palestinians to claim that there was a massacre at Jenin

It was an attrocity for a palestinian father to strap his 10 year old son with explosives and then to detonate the explosives when Israeli soldiers went to help the boy get out of the war zone.

It was an attrocity for palestinians to force people to stay in their homes, knowing the israelis were going to demolish them. it was also an atrocity for the palestinians to booby trap homes and cars, thereby killing many of their own people. In all, 53 people were killed in Jenin, most of them acknowledged to be armed Arab fighters.

Another atrocity was the Passover massacre where 30 people were blown to bits because they were Jews. This was the direct cause for the incursion into Jenin.

by Ali H. Wed Mar 30, 2005 17:58

of your retroactive justification for IDF butchery of Palestinian civilians, I would remind you that the IDF is an organ of the Israeli state and people whereas Hamas and other Palestinian organisations represent themselves alone.

The "heroic" IDF tactics in Jenin consisted of allowing a drunken bulldozer driver "Kurdi Bear" loose to take out his personal frustrations on the residents of Jenin. This is far from setting the high moral standards the IDF publicly aspires to!

At least Palestinian suicide bombers, by contrast, whether you agree with them or not, have taken a long time to prepare themselves mentally and spiritually for their chosen course of action.

Whatever you may say, the killing of Israeli civilians is not gratuitous, and does not occur in a vacuum and must be seen in the context of illegal Israeli colonisation and occupation of lands rightfully owned by the Palestinian people.

The killing of Palestinian civilians and foreigners by the IDF is glossed over at best, and at worst is justified by attempting to blacken the good names of the victims, as in the case of Rachel Corrie, Tom Hurndall, the Palestinian girl riddled with bullets by a blood-crazed IDF officer or the 10 civilians killed by deliberate tank fire in Gaza to name but a few.

Come back and complain about anti-Israeli bias after you've done justice to these and other victims of the IDF!

by Ali H. Wed Mar 30, 2005 18:01

This is a unique document. It was published in Yediot Aharonot, Israel's most widely circulated tabloid paper, on May 31, 2002. It is the first absolutely sincere Israeli eye-witness testimony on what actually happened in Jenin, by one of those who did it and are proud of it.

Apart from the shocking revelations, this is also a startling human document.

After publication - and in spite of it - the unit to which the man belongs received from the army command an official citation for outstanding service.

"I made them a stadium in the middle of the camp"

I entered Jenin, driven by madness, by desperation, in the worst condition
possible.

I told my wife: "If anything happens to me, at least someone will take care of
you".

The funny bit was, I didn't even know how to operate the D-9.

Within two hours, they taught me to drive forwards, and make a flat surface.

I tied the 'Beitar' football team flag to the back of the bulldozer and told them: "Move away, let me work.".

For three days, I just erased and erased

I kept drinking whisky to fight off fatigue

I didn't see dead bodies under the blade of the D-9, but I don't care if there
where any.

by Intifada sucks Wed Mar 30, 2005 20:17

'what actually happened in Jenin'

Intifada sucks....the area bulldozed was 100m x 100m
The direct cause for the Jenin incursion was the Passover Massacre 30 people were murdered because they were Jews.

Passover Massacre
By Eriq Gardner
Posted Thursday, March 28, 2002, at 3:53 AM PT

All the papers lead with news of the suicide bombing by a Palestinian in the Israeli coastal resort town of Netanya. The bomber, estimated to be carrying 40 pounds of explosives, walked into a diner where a Passover seder was getting underway and, when shouted at minutes later, triggered the bomb. At least 19 people were killed, and more than 120 people were injured. Hamas is claiming responsibility.

How likely is it that the bombing will forever be known as the "Passover Massacre"? ...Israeli Public Security Minister Uzi Landau, who is calling for Israeli retaliation: "This is not just terror. This is a massacre."

by Ali H. Wed Mar 30, 2005 20:22

is that murder is only murder if it's committed by a non-Israeli. Gentiles don't count, and they have no rights including the right to live, never mind talking about more complex rights like the right to self-determination.

by Baby Booomers Wed Mar 30, 2005 20:42

" The "heroic" IDF tactics in Jenin consisted of allowing a drunken bulldozer driver "Kurdi Bear" loose to take out his personal frustrations on the residents of Jenin."

LOL!!
Justify this!
The heroic tactics of the brave fighters of "palestine" in Jenin consisted of:
Strapping explosives to a 10 yr old boy and detonating them by remote control.
Forcing elderly people to stay in their homes at gunpoint and setting the homes with booby trap explosives.
Using exhumed bodies as "proof" of a massacre.

by Ali H. Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:03

I don't remember the Palestinian people approving this type of action. Hamas, Islamic Jihad etc. are not organs of the state, unlike the IDF.

Your comparisons are spurious and invalid.

As for dirty tricks and killing innocents the IDF, Mossad and other organs of the Israeli state are well known to use this type of tactic.

Talk about calling the pot black!

The Israelis are the leading exponents of state terror worldwide, and have exported their methods to the US and UK both of whom have used the same tactics to suppress other guerilla armies fighting colonial occupation and repression.

The latest manifestation of these state-terror tactics exported by Israel is the cutting off of water and electricity supplies to civilians because they happen to live in an area in which guerrillas are operating.

Such collective punishments are of course completely illegal and were most widely used in the past by the Nazis in WWII against the civilian populations of eastern europe including the residents of the Warsaw ghetto all of whom are by now spinning in their graves at the thought.

In the same breath of course they claim to be the only democracy in the middle east ..............

by Ali H. Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:18

Defenders of Israel often refer to a letter by Dr. King. This letter is reprinted in full on many web pages and in print. One example of a quotation derived from this letter is:

"... You declare, my friend; that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist' ... And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews... Anti-Semitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently anti-Semitic, and ever will be so."

Antiracism writer Tim Wise checked the citation, which claimed that it originated from a "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend" in an August, 1967 edition of Saturday Review. In an article on January, 2003, essay he declared that he found no letters from Dr. King in any of the four August, 1967 editions. The authors of this essay verified Wise's discovery. The letter was commonly cited to also have been published in a book by Dr. King entitled, "This I Believe: Selections from the Writings of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr." No such book was listed in the bibliography provided by the King Center in Atlanta, nor in the catalogs of several large public and university libraries.

Noels quote is a fabrication and a falsehood commonly used as a crude device for the suppression of criticism of the state of Israel and its policies.

The fact that people like Noel continue to use it in the full knowledge that it is false shows them up for what they are!

by Noel Thu Mar 31, 2005 13:17

Ali H,

I did not attribute the quote as written by Dr. King. However, that quote was spoken by Dr. King in an appearance at Harvard University in 1968.

Perhaps, in your haste to relate Martin Luther King with your world view, you mixed him up with the anti-semite Martin Luther.

Jew haters do poor fact checkers make.

by Ali H. Thu Mar 31, 2005 14:09

The MLK "quote" is a fabrication.

There is no record of the Harvard "meeting" /"dinner" etc. and those who claim it took place are thoroughly discredited in the electronic intifada article http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article2356.shtml which you obviously did not bother to read.

"Dr. King never claimed any expertise on the subject [of Zionism], nor made it a frequent topic of his speeches or writings. Claiming that all critiques of Zionism are anti-Semitic based on the force Martin Luther King Jr.'s words on the matter fails as an argument on many different levels. "

It obviously suits you much better to rely on "emotional" unfounded and false accusations aimed at blackening the characters of others rather than to base your argument on facts which plainly do not exist.

by jeff Thu Mar 31, 2005 18:03

The Jews and Israelis DO feel threatened by Arabs because they have had three wars with Arab nations, and the memory of the Holocaust is fresh still in their minds. If ordinary, 'civilised' Germans could do the Shoah unto the Jewish people, what might under educated, poor, angry Arabs do to them, especiallly as sections of the Koran rail against Jews.

Thus, I can understand the fear and hence, hatred many Israelis might feel against the Palestinians. However, as I said before, theft of Arab farmland in the West Bank to build settlements, and killing innocent Palestinians will not help matters any.

Ethnic conflict; the most depressing, boring and nullifying concept humnaity has to collectivly offer. When there are ethnic conflicts, brain dead types take over; In N. Ireland, Robert McCarthy's killers are just one example of dolts and how they react in a given social setting. Johnny Adair, uber chav scumbag, is another example of how only an ethnic conflict can give spie scum like that a place of "importance" not normally attainable in a peaceful, civil society.

In Bosnia, uber gangster scumbag Arkan received international attention thanks to ethnic conflict.

Hamas and Kach type setttlers are, again, thanks to ethnic conflict, the only viable alternatives to what could have been the next Mozarts, Einsteins or equivalent thereof rising to the fore.

Ethnic conflict is for morons. Morons are dangerous and should be sterilised. Please, no more 'Yes, well, we'd have peace, but only for ( insert ethnic group here.)That is boring. Think outside the box...

by Alois Brunner Thu Mar 31, 2005 19:38

Hey, if you can't believe Electronic Jihad regarding Zionism, who can you believe??
I know, we could check with the National Alliance....

Dr King equated Anti-zionism with anti-semitism druing a speech at Harvard university in 1968

by Ali H. Thu Mar 31, 2005 20:18

You obviously cannot read either.

The supposed quote is so full of holes you could drive an Israeli tank through them, to the point where even the pro-Zionist CAMERA website had this to say about it:

"We am sorry to inform you that the “Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend” allegedly written by Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., is apparently a hoax. "

There is no written record of any kind relating to the supposed pro-Zionist quote by MLK .

Case closed!

by Case indeed closed Thu Mar 31, 2005 20:57

While King's letter is a hoax, his statemtn to a Black student at harvard is not...

Martin Luther King on Zionism

At first I was about to include "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend," until I found out that this epistle was not authentic, merely an expansion of the following remark:

In his book, The Socialism of Fools: The Left, the Jews and Israel, Seymour Lipset describes a dinner in Cambridge held to allow Dr. King to meet with and speak to black students at Harvard and other campuses in Boston. One student made some anti-Zionist remarks and in response:

"Dr. King snapped at him and said, 'Don't talk like that. When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You're talking anti-Semitism.'"

(Lipset, Seymour Martin. The Socialism of Fools: The Left, the Jews and Israel, page 7.)

by Ali H. Fri Apr 01, 2005 11:14

The misuse of MLKs good name in this way by those seeking to deprive Palestinians of basic human rights is a heresy and is no doubt abhorent to the vast majority of people who believe in equal rights for all.

MLK may or may not have said many things but the only ones that count are those written by him and published in recognised journals which are not open to "interpretation" by interested 3rd parties anxious to twist perceptions to support their agenda.

Quotes attributed to him by 2nd or 3rd parties who were not present and meetings/dinners/etc. that may or may not have taken place do not constitute reality.

Given the equation of any criticism of Israel and its behaviour with anti-semitism it is easy to see how Zionists latch onto such ammunition.

However, in cases like this the very highest standards of proof apply and the fact that MLKs family have not endorsed these supposed "quotes" is telling.

In fact what is even more telling is that those still peddling this lie through the internet are Zionist groups.

by Noel Fri Apr 01, 2005 12:55

Once upon a time hatred of Jews was simply Jew hate, Judenhass.
However, that proved difficult to sell to the masses.
Wilhelm Marr coined the phrase anti-semitism which did the trick.
However, Hitler and his ilk made that concept a little unpopular.
Now we have anti-Zionism. A palatable term.

I can see how the Jew haters wish to jealously hold on to this label, finding a term to disguise their Jew hate is difficult.

Martin Luther King had their measure.
"When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You're talking anti-Semitism".

by Entymology Fri Apr 01, 2005 13:08

Anti-semites like to agrue ad nauseum as to what anti-semitism is and what it isn't. Sometimes they'll even trot out the misdirection that "arabs are semites too, and I like Arabs so how can I be anti-semitic?"
They're also obsessed with "who is a Jew" and who isn't..
Although not all Anti-zionists are anti-semites, all anti-semites are anti-zionists...
Which puts the National Alliance and other Nazi groups in cahoots with the ISM and other "solidarity" groups

by Ali H. Fri Apr 01, 2005 13:37

I never expected anyone to do would be to just make up a quote from King; a quote that he simply never said, and claim that it came from a letter that he never wrote, and was published in a collection of his essays that never existed. Frankly, this level of deception is something special. The hoax of which I speak is one currently making the rounds on the Internet, which claims to prove King’s steadfast support for Zionism. Indeed, it does more than that.

The item, entitled “Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend,” King proclaims that criticism of Zionism is tantamount to anti-Semitism, and likens those who criticize Jewish nationalism as manifested in Israel, to those who would seek to trample the rights of blacks.

Heady stuff indeed, and 100% bullshit, as any amateur fact checker could ascertain were they so inclined.

But of course, the kinds of folks who push an ideology that required the expulsion of three-quarters-of-a-million Palestinians from their lands, and then lied about it, claiming there had been no such persons to begin with (as with Golda Meir’s infamous quip), can’t be expected to place a very high premium on truth.

I learned this the hard way recently, when the Des Moines Jewish Federation succeeded in getting me yanked from the city’s MLK day events: two speeches I had been scheduled to give on behalf of the National Conference of Community and Justice (NCCJ).

Because of my criticisms of Israel--and because I as a Jew am on record opposing Zionism philosophically--the Des Moines shtetl decided I was unfit to speak at an MLK event. After sending the supposed King quote around, and threatening to pull out all monies from the Jewish community for future NCCJ events, I was dropped.

It should also be noted that in the same paragraph where King reiterated his support for Israel’s right to exist, he also proclaimed the importance of massive public assistance to Middle Eastern Arabs, in the form of a Marshall Plan, so as to counter the poverty and desperation that often leads to hostility and violence towards Israeli Jews.

This part of King’s position is typically ignored by the organized Jewish community, of course, even though it was just as important to King as Israel’s territorial integrity.

As for what King would say today about Israel, Zionism, and the Palestinian struggle, one can only speculate.

But one thing is for sure. While King would no doubt roundly condemn Palestinian violence against innocent civilians, he would also condemn the state violence of Israel.

He would be a broker for peace. And it is a tragedy that instead of King himself, we are burdened with charlatans like those at the ADL, or the Des Moines Jewish Federation, or Rabbis like Marc Schneier who think nothing of speaking for the genuine article, in a voice not his own.

by R.Isible Fri Apr 01, 2005 17:59

By that simplistic and absurd line of reasoning:
not all black things are crows, but all crows are black

What we're seeing here is essentialism being spattered about by zealots.

I'm sure there are plenty of anti-Semites who don't care one way or another about Zionism and just want to indulge their fabricated race-hatred on a handy outgroup. Similarly I know there are bundles of people that disagree with the Zionist project (including many people that would be identified by the most ardent Likud supporters as "semites").

The genocide (as defined by the UN) being perpetrated against the Palestinian people is enough to cause revulsion against Zionism and/or any other political ideologies motivating the expropriation of land, and the murder and torture of Palestinians seeking political independence (the same right the State of Israel insists upon).

Cowering behind accusations of anti-Semitisim against the opponents of this is pointless: it surely doesn't even convince you yourself.

by Noel Fri Apr 01, 2005 19:09

If Israel is indulging in genocide against Palestinians, they are the most incompetent genocidists ever.
Truly dedicated and efficient genocidists tend to indiscriminately murder as many of their target group as possible.

Take Jenin for example, I understand it's a cause celebre around these parts.
The brave soldiers of the IDF, fought hand to hand in the streets to flush out the cowardly murderers. True genocidists would have just flattened the place and all in it.

If Israel is as genocidal as some clowns on this site believe, why has the nuclear arsenal not been unleashed by now?

by R. Isible Fri Apr 01, 2005 19:22

Go look at the UN Definition of Genocide (they invented the term b.t.w. so don't bother quoting the Revised 3rd Edition of the War Criminal Exculpation Dictionary). When you've read it then come back and read your own post. Have a good laugh. I know I did.

by Noel Fri Apr 01, 2005 19:25

The UN definition of genocide?
Now let me see.
Darfur wasn't a genocide, Kofi Annan said so.
He should know.
However, Israel defending itself against murderous neighbours is genocide.

It's laughable alright.

by eastern eye Sat Apr 02, 2005 10:37

There are grey crows, as well.

by R. Isible Sat Apr 02, 2005 15:54

But this actually gets quite messy with Goodman's Paradox and Hempel's Paradox.

by Ali H. Sat Apr 02, 2005 16:06

The IDF levelled not only a substantial percentage of Jenin town centre, but have for many years been engaged in a campaign of systematic collective punishment against the Palestinian population. The number of homes demolished comes to over 2 thousand affecting over 20,000 Palestinians.

The IDF has continuously downplayed the massive and disproportionate level of destruction caused by their operation in Jenin with independent analysts reporting 2 to 5 times greater damage than that reported by the Israelis.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/palestine/jenin.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/palestine/jenin-imagery.htm

The Israeli government has also been quitely engaged in a campaign of house demolitions against their own Muslim citizens, ostensibly on the grounds of breaches of planning regulations, but in reality aimed at limiting the growth of the Muslim Israeli population. In East Jerusalem alone, 10,000 homes, housing a third of the Palestinian population, are currently threatened by demolition orders aimed at "cementing" Israels hold over the occupied city.

This campaign is far from incompetent and has involved a massive black propaganda effort against the Muslim population of the occupied territories as well as Israel proper. More often than not the campaign has been funded by the Americans under the guise of the war on terror, the Americans having bought the Israeli line in propaganda.

by eastern eye Sun Apr 03, 2005 23:52

not exactly.
according to wikipedia, based on 2003 annual statistics of the Israeli goverment,
81% were "Jews and others", and 19% were Arabs.
By religion, 77% were Jewish, 16% were Muslim, 4% were Christian, 2% were Druze and the rest were not classified by religion

63% of the Jews were born in Israel, 27% are immigrants from Europe and the Americas, and 10% are immigrants from Asia and Africa (including the Arab countries).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#Footnotes

by Ali H. Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:50

Eastern Eye, compound interest is indeed a wonderous thing.

It turns out that if you start out from the 1987 figures of 4.3M breaking down as 85% Jewish and 15% non-Jewish each compounding at birth-rates of 1.8% and 3.6% respectively (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/muslimpop.htm) you end up with the breakdown you've shown for 2005.

These of course are not census figures but let's assume for the moment they might be broadly correct.

Bad news for Zionists is that if they can't either limit the non-Jewish birth-rate and/or import more Jewish immigrants (only 25% or so of the worldwide Jewish population actually lives in Israel) non-Jews will be in a majority in the latter half of this century 2086 by my reckoning assuming the populations grow by birth-rate alone and not by immigration) in Israel proper leaving out the occupied territories.

The Muslim Israeli population can grow by birth rate alone given they cannot be live together with their partner if they marry a foreign spouse under Israeli law, and on the other hand their capacity to house additional offspring is limited by Israeli policies including discriminatory planning regulations and house demolitions.

This sheds some light on why the Israeli government is so keen to hold onto cleansed portions of the occupied territories by building a wall around them with a view to planting them with Jewish immigrants attracted to move to Israel by any means fair or foul.

by SportsFan Sat Apr 09, 2005 18:08

Israeli soldiers have shot dead three Palestinian teenagers on the edge of a refugee camp in southern Gaza. Witnesses say they were killed trying to retrieve a football in a no-go area near the Egypt border.

by mise Sat Apr 09, 2005 19:02

shh, dont say nothing the JDL will have us shut down for being anti-semitic.

by Kareem A'wheet Mon Apr 11, 2005 21:27

"Israeli soldiers have shot dead three Palestinian teenagers on the edge of a refugee camp in southern Gaza. Witnesses say they were killed trying to retrieve a football in a no-go area near the Egypt border."

These articles make arabs look like idiots..."Please Abu, why can't I play football in a closed security zone?"
"Don't worry Mustafa, take this football and this heavy backpack and go have some fun."

by Been there Mon Apr 11, 2005 21:52

which is what they are. There shouldn't be any "no go areas" for arabs in Palestine!

Karene, you are a right racist nasty snot on the world's nose, and you probably think you're someone!

Falastine Horra! Falastine Arabiye!

by Ireland wake up Mon Apr 11, 2005 22:07

When the Israeli team comes to Ireland to play football, we should all let them know what we think of nasty racist people like them. Let them get the "welcome" that nasty apartheid state deserves.
It hurts so much to see the abuse Palestinians are suffering since 1948, and we're so far away!!! If only I could go there tomorrow and join those brave men and women against the abominable Israeli occupation.
How can we allow those Israeli abusers be part of our football league, or our countries trade with them.
I just can't understand that.
Please let them know what they are when they come. Let them know we don't want their iced presence of Death set foot in this country!!

by Ali ibn Sharmootah... Mon Apr 11, 2005 22:55

"which is what they are. There shouldn't be any "no go areas" for arabs in Palestine!"

There wouldn't be, if the arab "palestinians" weren't so fond of explosives...
Smuggling weapons, suicide bombers...all part of the arab peace movement...

by Fraternal Abuse Mon Apr 11, 2005 22:58

"It hurts so much to see the abuse Palestinians are suffering since 1948, and we're so far away!!! "

Have you forgotten? There are arab members of the team...
The "palestinains" have been suffering because of their cynical Arab brothers, who have locked them in "camps" and kept them as pawns. (and NOT allowed them to integrate as citizens in any Arab country)

by Anything for a Headline at the expense of Children Mon Apr 11, 2005 23:14

DEBKAfile Military Sources: Gaza Strip strongmen Mussa Arafat and Abu Shbak paid five Palestinian boy smugglers IS.1,500 ($380) each to cross Philadalephi route Saturday as provocation timed for Sharon-Bush talks

Death of three smugglers by Israeli fire sparked massive Palestinian mortar-missile assault Saturday night-Sunday against Gush Katif and military posts. Sunday afternoon, Netzer Hazani house took direct mortar hit. It was empty. IDF Morag position came under Palestinian mortar fire. Shots against second military post in S. Gaza Strip.

Two Palestinian chiefs were sending signal to Crawford, Texas, and Abu Mazen that they and no one else lay down the law in the Gaza Strip. Sharon left Sunday on four-day trip to Washington.

Israeli troops ordered not to fire back or even silence sources of Palestinian fire.

by Ali H. Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:10

killing 3 teenagers for crossing the road cannot be excused on the basis of military "intelligence" reports? These are the same reports which sought to destroy the reputations of 10 innocent civilians deliberately killed by tank fire in Rafah a few months ago, and a 12 year old girl riddled with bullets by an IDF "officer".

This kind of behaviour is as excusable as suicide bombing is, and even less so when it is the behaviour of a state. What would have been the big problem to arrest these people, after all the IDF has shown itself to be capable of arresting attempted suicide bombers in the past.

The answer is obviously the contrary of what is claimed by the previous poster. This was a state-sanctioned killing aimed at convincing Sharon and Likud's constituency they are not going soft on terror and they will play hardball with Bush in Crawford.

Afterall who minds if a few Palestinian children are killed when nobody (in Israel) cares about them and it can be retroactively claimed that they're terrorists or in the employ of terrorists without any burden of proof or even investigation of the IDFs actions.

by Rooster Wed Apr 13, 2005 01:18

by mise Wednesday, Mar 23 2005, 5:51pm
The racist apartheid gov in SA was brought down by sports boycotts primarily. Why not boycott Israel?

-the sanctions and boycotts against South Africa did completely the opposite, SA has now got one of the best developed sporting (cricket and rugby especially) leagues in the World and eceonomic sanctions only strengthened white only power.

by Adam Sun May 01, 2005 08:39 umfootballacc at yahoo dot com

I AM AN ISRAELI and I'm not afraid to say this in front of all of you, even though I know you hate me and my people. For one, we are not a terrorist state, we are actually the only true democratic country in the Middle East. It is not our fault that the Palestinians rejected a two-state solution when the British left. They started war, and they lost. Even with this, we are being diplomatic of the situation and want them to have their own country.

Second, we do not support terror, we are against it. We experience the threat of having a suicide bomber everyday. I have a son and a daughter, and I am scare d everytime they go out with their friends to a movie in fear of them getting blown up by a Palestinian suicide bomber. How would you feel if terror struck you everyday? Would you let your family and innocent people die in front of you, or would you go to the territories and attempt to stop the terror?

Last, I am surprised that some of you said that Israelis hate the Irish. That is totally not true. We are one of the true supporters of Ireland. We welcomed close to 10,000 Irish Football fans in happiness last month. Israeli fans and Irish fans drank together in pubs, walked the streets, communicated, all with joy. True friendly world cup spirit was in the air. It was so massive I could feel it. Even after the game, the 1-1 draw, a great deal of sportsmanship was made. I was at the game in Tel Aviv, and Israeli fans and Irish fans exchanged jerseys and cheerfully commented about the match.

Listen, we are not as bad as you think. Come to Israel one day, and you'll see that you will be treated with the utmost respect. We are good people and it's not fair for you to tell us that we're evil. It is simply false. Good luck to both teams on June 4.

by celt - none Sat Apr 21, 2007 12:30

I agree