CIA Torture Jet sold in attempted cover up

by newshound Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:43

UK GROUP BUYS LIMERICK AIR GROUP - The Irish Examiner says that a Limerick-based aviation services company has been taken over by a British firm for just over €2.5m.

FBO Shannon, which has operations at the Co Clare airport and Dublin Airport, has agreed to sell an 85% stake in the company to London-listed BBA Group.

The company provides a number of support services to airlines at Dublin and Shannon, including crew transfer and aircraft refuelling and towing. It also provides a number of services for executive jets including VIP buses.

BBA Group said its Irish acquisition would be a good fit with its Signature Flight Support subsidiary.
From http://www.rte.ie/business/2004/1209/presswatch.html

by newshound Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:51

David Norris' repeated questions go unanswered...

by righteous pragmatist Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:18

Who are thse people the Americans "abduct"?
These guys are Islamic radicals and terrorists who have been tracked down by the intelligence services and captured before they can co-ordinate or commit terrorist acts against citizens of the United States.
Under the Geneva convention they are classed as enemy combatants -they are not civilians nor are they soldiers- but they are the enemy none the less.
These people possess valuable information that may seal the fate of thousands of innocent people and this information must be obtained.
I'll put this scenario to you if I may?
Suppose on September 10 2001 the Americans learned that a terrorist attack using hijacked airliners would target the twin towers and the Pentagon and possibly the White House. The Boston police force during a response to a disturbance art a strip club arrest two young Middle Eastern men at their nearby apartment having a drunken fight- which leads to the discovery of weapons and documents. The information they have found tells them that cells of suicide teams are staying in hotels in Boston -addresses unknown. The FBI and CIA are informed and they take control of the investigation. They suspect that the two suspects are a link in the chain of command. Thousands of people will die the following day unless they find out precisely where the suicide teams are holding up and a SWAT team can intercept them.
What do you do to get the information from the two suspects who aren't talking?

Torture them of course!

by Ali H. Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:48

Torture doesnt work. If it did Osama Bin Laden would already be dead. The fact is that torture of whatever form is possible to combat by training individuals in anti-torture and interrogation techniques. It is also just as likely to obtain the wrong information as people will say anything to make it stop, or actively give false information. Just look at what happened in Afghanistan where the SAS and American special forces wandered all around Tora Bora and turned up fuck all. Only a complete moron would believe that you can pick up a hardened terrorist one day and stop an active operation hours later .... this simply does not and cannot work and anybody who believes it most probably also believes in Santa and the fairies! If you want real intelligence it must be built up over a long period of time through a network with information being qualified at each step. This is simply not being done as is evident from Iraq and Afghanistan and in the absence of hard information all sorts of spurious information from people with axes to grind or other agendas is interpreted as fact ... geddit?

by righteous pragmatist Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:07

"If you want real intelligence it must be built up over a long period of time through a network with information being qualified at each step"

How do you do that when your enemy is as recalcitrant as Al-Qeada? You can't bribe these guys- they don't want money- they want jihad and martyrdom. These guys are not going to tell you anything if you politely ask them. Who is going to wait a long period of time while these scum are planning attacks.
There is no garantee that any information is qualified at each step - you must act on the information that is available.
Don't you know that this is a race against time? Regimes like Iran and Syria have WMD programs and support Islamic terrorists- only a fool would take the risk that both are not mutually exclusive. Do we wait until they combine and attack Europe and America and kills thousands?
Wouldn't you rather we put the screws on these bastards and saved ourselves the trouble.

by Tim Fri Dec 10, 2004 14:00

As usual "Righteous pragmatist" hasn't checked any facts and relies on spurios speculations (like a newcomer to a college debating union)

In his doomsday 'scenario' there are some police involved and some chain of evidence.

Meanwhile, in THE REAL WORLD...
this plane was involved in the abduction of people who were NOT under investigation by police, were NOT arrested by police and were NOT charged or tried. One of them was tortured for 34 months then released without charge. There was no reason to suspect him of anything.

Oc course, some of the nasty governments that work with the US intelligence services are not above getting at political dissidents, and using the whole secret torture thing as a tool of repression.

by righteous pragmatist Fri Dec 10, 2004 15:29

So I suppose the "innocent" people caged in Guantanomo Bay are shopkeepers from Timbuktu and dentists from Wazirstan?
What other reason than these guys are Islamic terrorists who threaten the United States would the Americans go to such expense to jet them across the world to Guantanamo Bay?

by Ray Fri Dec 10, 2004 15:33

Replayed today, with "If he talks, he's a terrorist, if he doesn't talk..."

The US picked up people on little or no evidence. People who were in the wrong place at the wrong time, or who had neighbours who bore a grudge. And tortured them.

by to righteous pragmatist Fri Dec 10, 2004 16:37

imagine they found out about 9-11 months before it happened, Oh no they did and did nothing
see the 9-11 inquiry.

by Anon Fri Dec 10, 2004 17:52

Lets get some things straight here. The real terrorists consists of most of the Bush administration, the elite they act on behalf of and their agents in the various intelligence services, military and apologists in the corporate media.

There is clear evidence that 9-11 was some kind of inside job. I mean look at the tremendous strides made in bringing forward the Police State and the whole apparatus for it's final implementation in the US and to a lesser extent in Europe itself too.

The vast majority of those caught in Afghanistan and brought to Cuba were small fry and would have very or no intelligence of any significance. The rest are just poor innocent people trawled up, all with the aim of adding credibility to the War on Terror. The whole thing is a hoax. Look at the series of very high profile arrests in the UK in the last few years of so-called terrorists, they were all later released without charge. Even the so-called Ricin chemical weapon case, turned out to be nothing but some peppers. These were also released.

The questions arises as to why the US would go to all this trouble and expense. These things are never a problem when there is an empire to be maintained. The US went to huge expense in Vietnam largely for nothing. In parallel with the war in Vietnam they also went to a lot of effort and I am sure expense to setup Operation Phoenix, whose sole purpose was to assassinate people. This it did very well. Over 200,000 people were killed by agents working for the CIA. There is a long line of such operations since that time, in numerous countries all over the world, nearly all in places where they were claiming to bring democracy funny enough.

In fact, murdering tens of thousands of people is standard stuff of the CIA. People get killed for no other reason, than they are maybe a bit left wing, or perhaps you are the brother or father of somebody who is. And yes, shopkeepers, dentists and many others are included in their number. The current War of Terror not War on Terror needs to have people arrested and so on so as to keep up the appearances that the US is actually fighting for peace here. A cursory glance or investigation of almost any aspect of this War of Terror will very quickly throw up many serious and disturbing contradictions and facts that simply do not make the official story unbelievable, which is passed on without comment by the corporate media.

What Tim and others have uncovered here is yet another disgusting campaign by the US administration, who are the front people for the elite that is behind them and some of whom are part of the administration.

A good place to start reading about the fake War on Terror is either of the following two sites. There are many others
http://www.fromthewilderness.com

by Tim Fri Dec 10, 2004 18:25

RP makes two points.

Dumbass point number 1)
Q: So I suppose the "innocent" people caged in Guantanomo Bay are shopkeepers from Timbuktu and dentists from Wazirstan?

A : Actually, some of them may well be along those lines. And according to a former US INTELLIGENCE officer most of the people at Guantanamo Bay shouldn't be there.

None of them are Osama bin Laden.

"Lieutenant Colonel Anthony Christino, who retired last June after 20 years in military intelligence, says that President George W Bush and US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld have 'wildly exaggerated' their intelligence value. "

Christino also disclosed that the 'screening' process in Afghanistan which determined whether detainees were sent to Guantánamo was 'hopelessly flawed from the get-go'.

It was performed by new recruits who had almost no training, and were forced to rely on incompetent interpreters. They were 'far too poorly trained to identify real terrorists from the ordinary Taliban militia'.

According to Christino, most of the approximately 600 detainees at Guantánamo - including four Britons - at worst had supported the Taliban in the civil war it had been fighting against the Northern Alliance before the 11 September attacks, but had had no contact with Osama bin Laden or al-Qaeda.

For six months in the middle of 2003 until his retirement, Christino had regular access to material derived from Guantánamo prisoner interrogations, serving as senior watch officer for the central Pentagon unit known as the Joint Intelligence Task Force-Combating Terrorism (JITF-CT). This made him responsible for every piece of information that went in or out of the unit, including what he describes as 'analysis of critical, time-sensitive intelligence'.

He also said that almost no useful intelligence came out of Guantanamo Bay
General Miller, who ran the place, and then ended up running Abu Ghraib did not have a record of military intelligence service or training. He just leaned on people

"General Miller had never worked in intelligence before being assigned to Guantánamo, and his system seems almost calculated to produce entirely bogus confessions. "

That's why an Afghan taxi driver was held in Cuba for so long, when he was swept up in a rather untargetted snatch.

The leaning does go as far as torture and extracting false confessions. Eg. forcing Shafiq Rasul and his friends to sign a confession saying that he met and trained with bin laden in 2000, even though MI5 proved that he was working in a Curry's electrical store in England at the time and didn't leave the country that year at all.
He got released, having endured three months isolated in solitary confinement and interrogation sessions in chains that lasted up to 12 hours daily.
- But you probably didn't hear about that did you? It doesn't fit in with your skewed world view. I 'suppose'

so yeah... you probably should "suppose" that most of them are innocent, because the real experts think that they are.

You usually don't 'suppose' you're more of a dumbASSume type of troll than a supposer.

getting false confessions from people who are not terrorists is not making us safer, but I guess for some people, they sleep better at night knowing that brown skinned people are being rounded up and tortured.

contrast Bush, Rumsfeld and Miller (who are not intelligence officers, although Bush Sr may qualify) with Christino a senior Pentagon Intel officer.

Bush & co claim that the interrogations yield "enourmously valuable intelligence" which "can save lives" and "speed victory"

Lt. Colonel Christino says that they have not prevented a single terrorist attack.

dumbass point number 2)
Q : What other reason than these guys are Islamic terrorists who threaten the United States would the Americans go to such expense to jet them across the world to Guantanamo Bay?

A: It's a tiny expense compared to the military budget and it makes great propoganda. They've made lots of news about capturing suspects. But when they have to let someone go when it turns out there's no reason to hold them, then it doesn't get much news coverage.

Guantanamo is deliberately public. The US hides what it does there, but they openly advertise the place for propoganda purposes.
It's there to pretend that al-Qaeda is more extensive than the small band of nutters roaming around Afghanistan and tribal areas of Pakistan with some Saudi money behind them (which is about as much as it ever was)
It's there to exaggerate the threat level, pretend that the War on Terror is getting some good results, and allow Bush to say 'intelligence that we have received indicates...' when he wants to justify something.

It's also there to help crack down on any other small groups by pretending than every terrorist group suddenly joined the amorphous al-qaeda network .

Basically it's there to help right-wing chickenhawks to feel righteous and make the rest of us feel our very lives depend on siding with them.

by . Fri Dec 10, 2004 18:54

cheap at the price

by Justin Morahan - Peace People Sun Dec 12, 2004 03:07

George W Bush says he is against torture.
Righteous Pragmatist, supporter and defender of Bush, advocates torture.
Is this a criminal offence?
Out with this outrageous comment!

by redjade Sun Dec 12, 2004 13:26

I wonder if RP and others would support the torture in Cuba if it was Fidel's people doing it?

by Ali H. Mon Dec 13, 2004 09:47

"imagine they found out about 9-11 months before it happened, Oh no they did and did nothing
see the 9-11 inquiry."

The Israeli intelligence service new all about the 9-11 attacks prior to their taking place by putting a network of spies on the ground in the US who shadowed the hijackers. Whatever the Israelis motivation the effectiveness of having a surevillance network established on the ground is evident in that the Americans, who didn't, paid the price for their negligence as they have done again since in Afghanistan and Iraq. As they say he who doesnt learn from the past is doomed to repeat it etc.!

by righteous pragmatist Mon Dec 13, 2004 11:38

We hate having to do it.
If the terrorists are so upset maybe they shouldn't be terrorists?
Never thought of that one did they?

by Justin Morahan - Peace People Mon Dec 13, 2004 13:29

Righteous Pragmatist, you have advocated torture, using a nom-de-plume instead of your real name.
This is an abuse of the freedom allowed you by posting on Indymedia. If you have the courage of your base convictions, come clean and use your name.

by righteous pragmatist Mon Dec 13, 2004 14:22

As Hannibal Lector said: Can I have your home phone number?

by Justin Morahan - Peace People Mon Dec 13, 2004 15:31

Coward

by Brendan Tue Dec 14, 2004 22:28 custodialartist at overgrow dot com

First off I know you are a troll and I only respond to point out the obvious that noone else calls you on.

Your vast generalizations, with no examples other than hypothetical senarios that are tailored to get a reactionary response, show that you have no idea what you are talking about. You have no experience with "these people" that you deem Islamic Terrorist but yet think you know exactly what motivates them and how they will respond to any given stimulus. You have no idea how government intellegence agencies such as the CIA and FBI work, yet you bring up this idea that they should be given free reign in their dealings in the name of your safety. I don't want a debate (not that I think I could really have one with you) but I do hope that you some day wake up and realize that until you have a little bit of real life experience with the world, which expands much further than your keyboard and your own selfish 'needs', all your ideas are just opinions and bad ones at that.

PS. If you think that the US is doing the right things to keep you safe, consider this. With items I can get at a junk yard, I could construct and EMP bomb tonight, set it off near a nuclear power plant tomorrow, and you would all be dead by the week-end. (and so could anyone else with a high-school education. sleep tight)

by redjade Wed Dec 15, 2004 16:34

'We hate having to do it.'
- Rightous Pragmatist


''Marines in Iraq conducted mock executions of juvenile prisoners last year, burned and tortured other detainees with electrical shocks, and warned a Navy corpsman they would kill him if he treated any injured Iraqis, according to military documents made public Tuesday.''

December 15, 2004 / the Los Angeles Times
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1215-01.htm

by Francisco Wed Dec 15, 2004 22:27

«««[1] We hate having to do it.
[2]If the terrorists are so upset maybe they shouldn't be terrorists?
[3]Never thought of that one did they?»»»

[1] Seems like mr. RP is used to torturing people, although he says he hates doing it.

[2] I agree with this sentence, but maybe you should tell this to mr. Bush and his drivers, mr. Blair, mr. Berlusconi and many others directly; I don't think they will be coming to read Indymedia soon.

[3] Well, ask them.

by Vincent St. John Thu Dec 16, 2004 00:43

I couldn't help but wonder, what is the lawyer's name and address that occupies the space listed as the company's headquarters, have people photographed this individual, or found out anything about his history, former clients, military service, etc...? Also has anyone observed the PO Box to see who picks up their mail, and where they go? I realize that this takes some coordination, but hey seems like it could be worth it, doesn't it.

by ? Thu Dec 16, 2004 13:04

The people who are fighting in Iraq are not terrorists unless fighting for the U.S. The U.S. are bringing terror to Iraq, Iraqis are fighting back against the occupiers like our forefathers once did when we where being occupied! The U.S. are only there for their own interests, Democracy in the states? Before bringing democracy to some other country, set it up in your own first!

by ? Thu Dec 16, 2004 13:40

All that you read above is all just opinion. Who really knows whats going on? I dont, I havent seen anything with my own eyes, just by Video or Photograph and the majority of what Ive seen, would say that there is something wrong going on. And those forces that be are trying to numb the minds of the masses with bull shit! Keep them occupied with shite and lead them astray. Something is happening that we dont know, but think we do. What will happen, only time will tell. Greed, Power & Empire...

by PreviousBlue Thu Dec 16, 2004 22:21

There is no mention of 'Enemy Combatant' in the Geneva Convention.

It is a figment of a demented president's mind-fuck of his countryman in order to avoid the wrath of his people.

So, RP, go fuck with someone else. Your first response shows your ignorance

by Summerian Sat Dec 18, 2004 13:29

"Who are thse people the Americans "abduct"?"

För någon vecka sen ringde UD till Al Zerys advokat och berättade att Egypten nu släppt alla brottsmisstankar mot honom. Efter 2 och ett halvt år i egyptiskt fängelse förklaras han alltså oskyldig till det han eventuellt misstänktes, torterades och avvisades för.
http://www.tv4.se/visa/?ID=351406

Al Zerys was released from Egypt prison.
Innocent
tortured

"Ha ha ha" by righteous pragmatist
Sick
You want http://bob.bob.bofh.org/~robm/misc/psycho.html
You just keep laughing there righteous pragmatist, you will get yours...

Anyways...
This is nothing new under the sun.
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/CIA%20Hits/CIA_GreatestHits.html

Enjoy

by Tim. Fri Feb 25, 2005 16:21

The Gulf Jet is now registered as N44982 (still with Bayard foreign Marketing, a fictional company in Portland) and the B737 is registered as N4476S (with Keeler and Tate, a fictional compnay in Reno)

The B737 is featured on pages 34-36 of the current edition of Newsweek, in a story about a German citizen who was abducted and taken to Baghdad and then Kabul, beaten, interrogated, and released after 5 months.
the Jet made a 13 leg journey from Washington DC, and the first stop was Shannon.

by mise Sat Feb 26, 2005 18:42

More on the jet