Less Lethal Weapons Protest – Dublin - Photos

by Noise Lover Wed Oct 20, 2004 04:39

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by Noise Producer Wed Oct 20, 2004 04:40

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by Noise Maximiser Wed Oct 20, 2004 04:41

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by Noise Developer Wed Oct 20, 2004 04:42

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by Pink Noise Wed Oct 20, 2004 04:44

Torture conference stinks !

http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=67088

by Confused Wed Oct 20, 2004 09:58

The first photo is a banner reading 'When you shoot at us we will fight back'. My question is this, what will we fight back with? Will we use weapons? will they be lethal or non-lethal. Will we use stink bombs against guns? All bombs are evil, even stink bombs.

by Shane Wed Oct 20, 2004 11:56

You guys were made to sound like immature fools on the Gerry Ryan show. Ok you are saying no to less-leathal weapons, but what excatly is your alternative.
Pots and pans, whistles, uilean pipes and banners are not really that good at taking down a drugged up desperate bank robber.

by Observer Wed Oct 20, 2004 12:04

"Pots and pans, whistles, uilean pipes and banners are not really that good at taking down a drugged up desperate bank robber."

Neither are our security forces. They have a good record of shooting up the place and killing their own when the baddies haven't even fired a shot.
And now they want tasers etc, to play with. Your having a laugh.

by Ciaron - Dublin Catholic Worker Wed Oct 20, 2004 13:31

"People will stop robbing banks when banks stop robbing people". The abolition of profit driven, thieving banks may be the most sensible route to stopping bank robberies.

Bank robberies are an interesting thang to dwell upon. This conference takes place in the context of sustaining imperialism and capitalism - the armed robbery of the poor! The best use of a weapon in an armed robbery is when it's not fired.....so to say that B52's, trident nukes, tasers are not being used today because they haven't left the holster is incorrect.

The weapons primary purpose is to facilitate that robbery. Seems like the less lethal weapons are designed for us - the house slaves - as the centre of the empire should we get distraught with the death sentences handed to our brothers and sisters in the Third World.

The field slaves - in the thrid world- are the subjects of other conferences- DSei in London, the annual Arms Bazaar at the DC Sheraton - where cluster bombs, tanks, et al are on sale.

by Badman Wed Oct 20, 2004 14:05

The first banner is a little bit 'aspirational' to say the least. "When you shoot at us we will die" is probably more accurate!

by Captain sensible Wed Oct 20, 2004 14:20

Do you think? And when will this take place? And when it does and we live in this mythical land of plenty there will be no crime of course......

by Larmat Wed Oct 20, 2004 15:34

We can fight back with our minds, through organisation, creativeness, imagination, art, socialisation, etc, etc, all of which are non/less-lethal. 'Fighting back' can take many shapes and forms.

by Yea Right Wed Oct 20, 2004 15:59

Ok, if you're going to fight back with minds, through organisation, creativeness, imagination, art, socialisation, etc, etc, prepare to have your arse kicked. This is the real world, mind, art, creativity bullsh1t does not work against weapons.

by protester Wed Oct 20, 2004 18:35

Well done to all those that organised the protest,went great,good turnout.

by anon Wed Oct 20, 2004 18:39

when you shoot at us we will fight back?
BLOODY ANARCHISTS!

by RJP Wed Oct 20, 2004 19:52

Good turnout? Your expectations have really receded. Barely made a ripple. As I said all along of course.

That's how many failures ???

For all your info, it was not a fair of any sort. It was a discussion forum on the role, if there is to be one, of LLW in riot and mass violent protest control. Also in relation to possible public order problems in peacekeeping roles. Subjects which I'm sure you will agree at least merit discussion.It was highly informative, there were no actual products on display. So the torture weapons bit was highly inaccurate. Then again it's to be expected. There was also a presentation by amnesty international on human rights issues and LLW's by a practical and pragmatic speaker named Sauro Scarpelli.

BTW If you ever get a chance to stay in the Berkely court, do, top-class hotel.

There's nobody after you guys, there's no conspiracy chill the f*ck out. Sleep well.

by hill Wed Oct 20, 2004 21:30

I would like to see a world when there are no weapons but I realise that that is not the case now and wont be for some time unfortunately.

The problem I have with these so called 'less lethal' weapons is that they are in the hands of the police and army who at the end of the day use these weapons to protect privilage and enforce exploitation.

I want to see weapons in the hads of ordinary people and use them against their oppressors. If there was an 'arms fair' that was about how to get weapons into the hands of ordinary people for the use against the ruling class then I would support that fair.

by Starstruck - DGN Wed Oct 20, 2004 22:01

Well done to all those who put work into the event and all those who took the time to attend.
RJP-if you are so moralistic,realistic and practical ,come along to the next DGN meeting,we could use a straight thinking head like yours.
The Berkeley Court sang to the sound of fire alarms,
smelt sweet like stink bombs and was visited by several hundred well-wishers..
A few undesirables turned up and tried to swop tips on how best to torture their fellow man..
They had to hide within a ring of human steel...
And they thought they could spoil the party......
I think not.
The fight for jusice continues!

by jams Wed Oct 20, 2004 22:16

Aye .... indeed brother ...

And wasn't that the idea behind the IRISH CITIZEN ARMY ..... in the days before Liberty Hall had sold out to the con-job of "social partnership" ...

http://www.1916rising.com/pic_ica.html

by a blast from the past Wed Oct 20, 2004 22:35

From Workers' Republic, October 30, 1915

The Irish Citizen Army was founded during the great Dublin Lock-Out of 1913-14, for the purpose of protecting the working class, and of preserving its right of public meeting and free association. The streets of Dublin had been covered by the bodies of helpless men, women, boys and girls brutally batoned by the uniformed bullies of the British Government.

Three men had been killed, and one young Irish girl murdered by a scab, and nothing was done to bring the assassins to justice. So since justice did not exist for us, since the law instead of protecting the rights of the workers was an open enemy, and since the armed forces of the Crown were unreservedly at the disposal of the enemies of labour, it was resolved to create our own army to secure our rights, to protect our members, and to be a guarantee of our own free progress.

by RJP Thu Oct 21, 2004 15:42

You know what Starstruck, I may just do that-if your offer was genuine?

Republican wasters harping on about ancient history and Irish military embarassments best forgotten can sod off and find another thread.

As for those seeking to arm themselves, sadly I can offer no help to your predicament. Too much playstation methinks.

by conor (wsm personal capacity) Thu Oct 21, 2004 18:07

RJP:

For all your info, it was not a fair of any sort. It was a discussion forum on the role, if there is to be one, of LLW in riot and mass violent protest control. Also in relation to possible public order problems in peacekeeping roles. Subjects which I'm sure you will agree at least merit discussion.It was highly informative, there were no actual products on display. So the torture weapons bit was highly inaccurate. Then again it's to be expected. There was also a presentation by amnesty international on human rights issues and LLW's by a practical and pragmatic speaker named Sauro Scarpelli.

me:

Horeshit my learned friend !

This was no academic debate on the merits and de-merits of these weapons.

It was a collection of the CEOs of several companies like Marshall Couper
MDM Group Inc, CEO, ShockRounds Project,
the Assistant Garda Commissioner Joe "2 guns" Egan, Detective Superintendent Patrick Hogan Detective Unit, Garda Síochána,Inspector Graham Lawrence,
West Midlands Police
and numerous self styled "security experts",

COME THE FUCK ON!

ONE REP from Amnesty in the midst of this shit doing one short session at the end of one day (no matter how pragmatic you found him)
DOES NOT A DEBATE MAKE !

NOBODY spent 1600 euros a head to sit around discussing their humanitarian concerns or what was the nicest most PC way to batter people.

The role IS ALREADY DECIDED otherwise why would there be sessions like:

"Background to the Garda Less Lethal Weapons programme "

Oh let's have a session to discuss WHETHER TO HAVE a programme we already HAVE. DUH !!

Cop yourself on man

- you may live in cloud cuckoo land,
you maybe able to afford to live in cloud cuckoo land -

we can't
we don't
we won't

conor

by RJP Thu Oct 21, 2004 18:14

I don't wish to be presumptious, but I don't think you were there. I was. It wasn't a fair about 'how do you we get a chance to unleash these things on the general public,' it was a discussion forum with manufacturers, agencies and pricate consultants in addition to amnesty.

It is true that the Gardai have three non-lethal devices, but you're unlikely to see them such is the strict rules governing their deployment.

I have no interest in bullshitting you or anyone else Conor, that's exactly what it was-a discussion forum. Nothing else.

Now back in your hole, good lad.

by barry - n/a Thu Oct 21, 2004 18:42 aranu21 at hotmail dot com

This protest was not about being against the exsistence of these weapons. These instruments of containment are used in bolivia, u.s.a, brazil etc.. countries with awful human rights records. When we were protesting on tuesday it was not about any tripee 60's hippee peace concept it was about putting up resistance against the powers that enslave us in propaganda and mis infomation. Peolpe all over the world campaigning for a better world and the greater good will be kept in check with these weapons (battle ot seattle....). We are in a luck position to live in a country where it is possible to built resistence to a bleak future. On tuesday we failed to shut down the conference with more and more people becoming aware to world's problems and willing to put time and energy in numbers will grow. No matter if you are a s.w.p. member or an anarcist the left is united on core issues that have the possiblity in the near future of being brought in to the limelight
REFUSE
RESIST
ORGANISE
fuck petty leftist political differences

by conor (wsm personal capacity) Thu Oct 21, 2004 20:37

by RJP Thursday, Oct 21 2004, 5:14pm
RJP:
I don't wish to be presumptious, but I don't think you were there. I was. It wasn't a fair about 'how do you we get a chance to unleash these things on the general public,' it was a discussion forum with manufacturers, agencies and pricate consultants in addition to amnesty.

Me: Baby you're living in dreamland and obviously can afford to do so what could those people have to discuss EXCEPT sales AND use thats the only reason they were there!

- I don't have the kinda cash and contacts you appear to (nor would I enjoy the company particular - I'm pretty kosher about pork amongst other things) but I have the ability to read and 90% of whats on the web page is to do with thesale, use and poliferation of the weapons.

http://www.janes.com/security/conference/llw2004/venue.shtml

here's a bit of the programme for those of you who haven't the 1600 handy but are likely to be on the recieving end of teh technology soon

"Background to the Garda Less Lethal Weapons programme
Working Group established to examine current practice, evaluate and choose systems.
Terms of reference of the Working Group and the considerations that followed i.e. critical requirements-tactical considerations -options-
Devices examined - impact - chemical etc.
Working Group recommendations - bean bag - 12 gauge ferret - cs/oc multipurpose grenade
Implementation Team - terms of reference - changes to the working Group's recommendations and why
Training requirements and additional training in conflict resolution and scene command
Establishment of operator guidelines
Training to date, current position and lessons and the future.


11.00 Reclaiming the Advantage
The need for new technologies driven by the complexities of the new world
Crime prevention and military operations in an electronic information age arena
A discussion of how LLW, in particular electric LLW, are reclaiming the advantage
Overview of electric technologies, past, present and future
The risk factors – the things that could erode that new advantage
Managing the impact of the information age
HR groups’ misguided attention – what are they trying to achieve
Public complacence
Lack of coordinated (centralised) LLW policy
A discussion of the solutions

The introduction of less-lethal weapons in Spanish national and local LE agencies - Problems and advantages found.
Less-lethal weapons in service in the different Spanish LE agencies and in the military.
Tactics used by Spanish anti-riot units in crowd and individual control.
The Euro 2004 Championship and the necessary introduction of less-lethal devices
Juan Pablo Lasterra Antuñano
Media specialist in Defence and Security
14.05 Less-Lethal options in rapid entry techniques
Hydraulic and pneumatic MOE's
Capabilities of manual technology and techniques
Use of explosive breaching as a less-lethal method of entry in critical incidents Ian Bauchop
Sigma Security Devices

15.30 Training, deployment and injury risk related to impact rounds
Basics rules of deployment and engagement: public order vs. individual suspect

Testing and procuring equipment based on the anticipated task

Training for safe and effective use

Pre-incident "trigger points" for operational use in both scenarios

Documentation and after care
To be confirmed
16.05 Less-Lethal Techniques and Training in public order situations Netherlands Police
Why are LTLF weapons being developed and deployed?
Who deploys them?
What are the advantages and disadvantages ?
LTLF gives us all time to change, death is a full stop.
Case study of the Dutch use and deployment of LTLF, Queens Day Riot 2001.
The social feel good factor.

ANYONE see ANY disscussion there - no it's how to deploy and use
FULL STOP !

The Amnesty chap was no more than a quite insulting fig leaf

Conor

by pc Fri Oct 22, 2004 00:37

is that so rpj , where the strict governence of the deployment of batons against heads at street parties,
its not just about the weapons its about accountability, you tell me the police and state are accountable enough...

the gardai said yesterday they may add tazers to the arsnel of the eru, but it wasn't for crowd control ,well they've already had the water cannons out whats a little tiny tazer gun make any difference...?

so rk? there's no possibilty the weapons will be bought or sold because of this discussion seminar, that no deals will be made because of it?

so how were the speeches from the dutch police the northern irish police and the LA police?

by RJP Fri Oct 22, 2004 10:56

I think you all need to get over this now. It's over. That's the second time it's been held in Dublin so you may have six years or so to get your act together b4 the next one and try and do a better job. Although I'm sure most of you will have found some other new cause to hijack your misguided energy to.

Conor, I've no interest in having, "iwas there, Oh no you weren't" debate. You'll just have to take my word for it. Chill out, it was nothing to get worked up about and the world is a far less threatening place then you believe it to be.

If anyone wants to read the contents of conference, you can buy 'em for £300 (STG) from Jane's. I know, it's extortion.

Over and out.

by conor (wsm personal capacity) Fri Oct 22, 2004 12:41

To RJP

Believe me I have much better things to do then try and educate the terminally deluded !

Actually I think we did pretty damn decent this time and learned a lot ! Next one the pressure will be applied earlier and better - hopefully hitting Jurys in their pockets
- The only beat they move to!

I intend to take this as a challange

- I'd advice others to do likewise

Lets make sure this was the last one in Dublin any way

Conor

by C sna C Fri Oct 22, 2004 13:43

The world is "world is a far less threatening place" than we believe eh?

Maybe for you in your ivory tower.

by Red Sox Fri Oct 22, 2004 15:55

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041022/ap_on_re_us/red_sox_fans&cid=519&ncid=716

by redjade Sat Oct 23, 2004 13:10

The death of a college student from a pepper-spray-filled projectile sparked anger and questions Friday about whether police used too much force to break up rowdy Red Sox revelers outside Fenway Park.

[....]

O'Toole said the officers showed "great restraint" but had to fire the projectiles after a few revelers set small fires and threw bottles at police and vandalized property, endangering others. Snelgrove, a 21-year-old Emerson College student, was hit in the eye and died hours later.

The plastic balls of pepper spray, which are propelled from devices similar to paintball guns, are meant to help police control large groups without injuring people.

"We want to use the least force necessary in order to maintain the crowd," O'Toole said. "Very unfortunately, it resulted in a horrible action."

by O Bailan Todos, O No Baila Nadie Tue Oct 26, 2004 17:52

this conference was another example for this statement. rich people were making more money by selling instruments of torture & killing to forces who will use their new toys against the people who, in fact, pay their wages and pensions.
our actual system supports such transmissions, because money-makers were suggested to earn more and more to buy their third car a month. and that's what makes our economy roll. crazy.
we should learn that the only possibility to avoid those conferences is an economy not controlled by global players neither by a Polit Bureau (sorry folks, it just didn't meet the interests of the people in old socialistic countries), but an economy controlled by the people.

that's why i demand: democratize economy.

by aye indeed Tue Oct 26, 2004 20:52

How shall we democratise the economy without smashing the yoke of interest slavery ?

Riddle me that o wise one ?

by O Bailan Todos, O No Baila Nadie Tue Nov 02, 2004 18:42

that question is the holy grail.
once we knew we should put it in practise. but i'm not a grail hunter. i wrote this comment to convince people that a democratized economy is the solution against capitalism.
i added a link to a site with some more information.
and the question HOW can also be asked to any socialist. i don't think they'll have the perfect answer. if they did they would live in socialism, of course.

by aye indeed Tue Nov 02, 2004 20:12

Do you agree that smashing the yoke of interest slavery is a preqrequisite ?

Or are you just equivocating like an FFer standing for election ...

by O Bailan Todos, O No Baila Nadie Tue Nov 09, 2004 19:37

i think the unification und equalisation of the working class is essential for every future state.

"there is no real socialism without democracy, but there is also no real democracy without socialism."
rosa luxemburg

by Al Tue Nov 09, 2004 23:31

I have a question for all you out there. If in the morning the Gardai was completely dimantled and you were giving the task of setting up, running and equiping the new police force how would you do it? What equipment would you provide? What training? How big would the force be? What powers would they have? Please dont talk shite, Im giving you all the chance to tell a Garda how it should be done in a reasonable manner. Also, dont even suggest that a police force isnt necessary, my sides couldnt take it.

by Al Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:24

Im shocked, no one can give me a decent answer? Not one anti-garda individual can come up with an alternative?

by Swampy Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:12

Solution:

A coalition of community members (e.g. teachers, parents, members of public, workers) would come together and form a 'public good team' on a rotational basis.

This team would have the job of protecting the safety of the public and upholding the community-agreed maxims of social harmony.

Eventually it is likely that the PG Team would need to be employed and trained in a structured manner to ensure consistency of approach. Also, the community group would probably best if representative of the community at large (and not just one section) so therefore for fairness would need to be elected.

Eventually it would probably be appropriate to seperate the social-harmony-maxim setting group from the upholding group, to ensure there is no corruption.

Perhaps we could call the maxims 'laws' the elected group 'policiticans' and the upholding group 'Gardai'.

Hold on a sec, we're back where we started (wink wink)!

While the Gardai have a small element of corruption and systemic laziness, they are basically the only way in modern society. It's a hard job that I wouldn't do, and it attracts it share of a-holes. But I'm glad they are out there.

by Longtime watcher Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:31

Re: above comment http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=67102&condense_comments=false#comment90065
(by Conor)
'Assistant Garda Commissioner Joe "2 guns" Egan' .
Would that be the same Joe Egan also known as 'fats' Egan who was associated with the Garda 'Heavy Gang' in the seventies, would it not?

by Anon Fri Mar 04, 2005 13:04

The champions of democracy in the military are at it again:

'The US military is funding development of a weapon that delivers a bout of excruciating pain from up to 2 kilometers away. Intended for use against rioters, it is meant to leave victims unharmed. But pain researchers are furious that work aimed at controlling pain has been used to develop a weapon. And they fear that the technology will be used for torture....

...It concerns so-called Pulsed Energy Projectiles (PEPs), which fire a laser pulse that generates a burst of expanding plasma when it hits something solid, like a person (New Scientist print edition, 12 October 2002). The weapon, destined for use in 2007, could literally knock rioters off their feet.'

Obviously if you have done nothing wrong, you have absolutely nothing to worry about. I am confident there will be safeguards. Good citizens who have a job, pay their taxes, have short hair, follow celebrites, watch soaps, drive cars and shop alot need not concern themselves about this great development in the service of Law enforcement.

Full story at: