Socialist Alternative, sister party of Socialist Party in Germany wins two council seats

by cweeugh Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:56

Sisters, brothers, comrades, the revolution is here! From our power base with TWO COUNCIL SEATS we shall commence the overthrow of the hated capitalist overlords. And this is of such relevance to Irish comrades that we post a whole story on Indymedia Ireland about our TWO COUNCIL SEATS.

Get a life.

by Interested Tue Sep 28, 2004 11:10

How come you didnt issue a press release when the SP lost a Council Seat in Coventry? This was in the midst of a massive swing against Labour but the SP did the impossible: they lost a seat to Labour!

by Cannon Tue Sep 28, 2004 11:59

Unfortunately, much of the far left is prone to a virulent disease whose syptoms are easily observable:

1. Any progress is exagerated way out of proportion to give the impression of immenent breakthrough.

2. Any defeat, failure etc. is ignored if possible, or explained away as being due to external factors.

3. Public self criticism or any admission of problems is banned.

This CWI piece is typical of such failings, though these pieces of propaganda are really for internal consumption, a morale boost for the members. In the cold light of day anyone with the most basic knowledge of political geography knows that unlike Ireland which has only a total of a few hundred councillors , Germany has thousands of council seats. Winning two extra council seats in Ireland would be a modest breakthrough (as the SP did in June) but two in Germany amounts to s.f.a. in the big shceme of things.

The fact is that despite years of work there, the CWI affiliate in Germany amounts to nothing on the left scene. The only major force on the left now is the PDS though they may be joined soon by some sort of trade union/ left social democrat formation in western Germany in a revolt against the SDP/Green governments welfare 'reforms'. Though it contains some genuine trends, the PDS is an oppotunistc outfit who happily apply neo-liberal policies in regional coalitions with the SDP.

The CWI/SP will never make a real breakthrough until it shed this kind of self-dillusional method. Nobody other than the most gullible of new members is fooled by it anyway. Marxism that is not reflexive and self -critical is not marxism at all, just another religion.

by % Tue Sep 28, 2004 14:06

Today, in the state of North Rhine-Westphalia 14 million citizens were called to take part in community elections. They were held for city and municipal councils as well as county parliaments ("Kreistage"). Today's ballot will also indicate the possible outcome for the upcoming the legislative assembly ("Landtag") election in May. North Rhine-Westphalia is the most populated German state.
According to an ARD prognosis, the CDU had a clear win with 44,5 % of community votes in North Rhine-Westphalia despite a 5.8 % decline. The SPD lost a further 0.9 % after their dramatic decrease in votes five year ago, and had 33 % of the votes. This accounts for the worst community election results for the party since the forming of the state. The Green party won an additional 1.7 %, with a 9 % result. The FDP also improved when compared to 1999 results by 1.7 %, to 6 %. Extreme right wing parties did not have any effect. Voter participation was approximately 53.5 percent.

by Jonathon - SP (pc) Tue Sep 28, 2004 15:39

The election of 2 councillors in Germany is obviously not a sign that the reviolution is around the corner but it is a positive thing, to deny this is allowing your hatred of the CWI get in the way of real analysis.

The electoral breakthroughs of independent leftwing lists and of socialists in Germany is a step forward in the movement against Schroeders Agenda 2010 attacks. It is also a sign that there is a mood for a new working class party with socialist policies in Germany. the PDS have also benefitted electorally recently. This is largely because of their participation in demonstrations against Hartz IV. However it must be remember the gains made by the PDS are not what they could be due to the fact that the PDS at a regional and local level have implemented savage cuts and are seen to be old stalinist careerists. The tired old leadership of the PDS will not be in anyway to the forefront in this struggle. Those that will be will be the hundreds of thousands of new people that are not affiliated to any party but are active in the movements against Agenda 2010. Whether you like it or not the CWI in Germany is very active in this movement.

by Interested Tue Sep 28, 2004 15:53

"The election of 2 councillors in Germany is obviously not a sign that the reviolution is around the corner but it is a positive thing, to deny this is allowing your hatred of the CWI get in the way of real analysis. "

Dont mistake criticism and questions for hatred. But if the election of these 2 Councillors is a positive thing then surely the loss of a Council seat in Coventry is a negative thing. The trouble ios that the CWI would not accept this and put all sorts of spin on the seat loss to try and turn it into a victory.

by Jonathon Tue Sep 28, 2004 16:16

In June in Coventry the SP actually substantially increased its vote, off the top of my head I think it was 12% across the entire City. In the St Michaels Ward the third SP cllr came in fourth just 12 votes behind the successful New Labour candidate. This was very good considering there was considerable boundary changes in that ward which saw chunks of working class areas moved out of St Michaels.

by Confused Tue Sep 28, 2004 16:21

"It is also a sign that there is a mood for a new working class party with socialist policies in Germany. the PDS have also benefitted electorally recently."

You get two new councillors elected in a country that is smaller than Germany and the CWI declares that there is no mood for a new working class party.
Double standards or what?

by Interested Tue Sep 28, 2004 16:30

But this was during a massive swing against Labour, they lost hundreds of seats. Yet the SP lost a seat to Labour. The SP have always boasted that the ward in question is working class.

by Enemy of cant Tue Sep 28, 2004 16:38

I hate to be a party pooper, but..... The fact is that the CWI is just another insignificant Trotskyist sect. It has very few members, particularly when you consider how long it has been around. To take one example, in Northern Ireland it has been ariound since the early 70s, but currently has no more than about two dozen members on paper. In England Wales it has all but collapsed - again, particularly if you take into account what it used to have. Internationally, its sections are little more than fragments or figments, mostly of Peter Taaffe's rather limited imagination. And maybe they will expel even more people soon.

Now, I quite accept that there were political difficulties in the 1990s (which, by the way, did not prevent Peter Taaffe in the late 80s predicting that they would be the Red 90s), BUT - it is oibvious that such a record of failure and marginal influence must be at least partly due to the organisation's ossified politics and wretched internal regime.

Less bombast and more introspection just might be a good idea. Of all organisdations, the CWi is among the least qualified to boast.

by Brian C. Tue Sep 28, 2004 17:23

Congratulations to Socialist Alternative in Germany on a small but valuable step forward. In the wake of winning their first council seat in Rostock a few months ago this brings their total number of councillors to three.

Is this an enormous breakthrough that is going to usher in a socialist revolution by lunchtime on Friday? No, unfortunately not. It is however a useful gain for a small organisation that is deeply involved in the protests against the Social Democrat's social cuts and in the movement for a new working class party.

Typically it has been met on the newswire by anonymous sniping but that's only to be expected. Just one of the many things wrong with the world that some council seats in Germany won't be able to change is the bile that sometimes washes over this newswire.

One of the points raised by one of our anonymous critics is worth replying to however. "Curious" remarks bitterly on the different attitudes taken by the Socialist Party in Ireland and our sister organisation in Germany towards the need for a new party of the working class.

The Socialist Party and the German Socialist Alternative both take the view that there is a need for a new mass workers party, as the various Labour and Social Democratic Parties have become openly capitalist parties. That much is the same in both countries. The social conditions in which that need exists differ dramatically however.

In Germany there is a huge movement against the cuts being implemented by the Social Democrats. There is also a groundswell of support amongst politically minded working class people for a new party. The small electoral successes of the existing left in Germany are a reflection of that mood.

Such movements do not exist currently in Ireland. I only wish we had thousands taking to the streets every week to oppose the policies of our right wing government, but we don't. I wish we had tens of thousands of people actively looking for a new party, including important sections of the trade union movement, but again we don't.

Ireland in 2004 is not Germany in 2004. Concrete conditions are different and so the approach taken by socialists is different. Why this should be at all difficult to understand is quite beyond me.

by Jonathon Tue Sep 28, 2004 17:37

There was a huge turn against Labour at the last local elections in Britain. this does not mean that individual candidates can do well in certain wards or among certain sections of the population. If you look at the Irish elections I am sure you will find wards in which FF candidates gained seats. Any sane analysis of elections will acknowledge this.

In England there is a bizarre electoral system, particularly the one used in the local elections. In Coventry voters have 3 votes. They can't vote more than once for any candidate and may also only use one or two votes. As a result this means that in most cases it is very difficult for any party to win all 3 seats in any given ward as a chunk of voters will not vote down the party ticket.

St. Michaels is overwhelmingly a working class ward but there has been boundary changes which resulted in some more middle class areas being brought into the ward, this gave Labour a boost. Another factor that boosted Labour is the fact that traditional Tory and Lib Dem voters that wanted to get the SP out would have given a vote to Labour to avoid the 'wasted vote' phenomen.

Across the ward the three Socialist Party candidates polled significantly more than New Labour, gaining 4,236 votes compared to Labour’s 3,536. However due to voters not voting down the SP ticket a New Labour candidate slipped 12 votes ahead of the 3rd SP candidate. The 3rd SP candidate won 1201 votes which was significantly up on what he achieved previously.

If these results are repeated when the New Labour cllrs seat is contested the SP will win back the seat.

by Brilliant Tue Sep 28, 2004 17:43

....the SP will rule Britain! Hallelujah!!

by haiduc Tue Sep 28, 2004 18:17

...the SP wouldn't rule Britain, the working class would.

by Interested Tue Sep 28, 2004 18:32

Now thats rather unlikely given that the CWI in England & Wales (the Welsh are not allowed to have a seperate section) have about 300 members. Now thats a bit of a fall from their heydays when they had 8,000 members. But dont let the facts get in the way of a good fairytale.

by interested about interested Tue Sep 28, 2004 18:44

'interested' I'd be interested what the source of your 300 figure is

by Interested Tue Sep 28, 2004 18:56

Shucks. SP members have even admitted it on Indymedia. They pointed to the paradox that the Irish SP was bigger than the English & Welsh SP. That was one of their excuses as to why there was not a Welsh section of the CWI. Go on, claim that you have 3,000 members!

by Beancounter Tue Sep 28, 2004 19:04

If only the Irish Socialist Party was the size of the English and Welsh SP we would be very happy indeed.

The scale of the English and Welsh SP is publically available as of around a year ago, when they published a figure of 1,500.

by Interested Tue Sep 28, 2004 19:07

Do you really believe this? Do you think you are fooling anyone on this site other than enthusiastic new SY recruits?

by Beancounter Tue Sep 28, 2004 19:12

I know that I give more credit to detailed membership figures which I have had access to than I do to the claims of some anonymous sectarian on the Irish Indymedia site.

As for whether that anonymous sectarian believes me or not, I can't express in words how little I care.

by Interested Tue Sep 28, 2004 19:15

Is that your real name?

"anonymous sectarian on the Irish Indymedia site."

Do you not think that this might more accurately describe you. You believe that the scant couple of thousand CWI memmbers world-wide are the only salvation for humanity. Now thats a real sect.

by Cannon Wed Sep 29, 2004 11:44

In one sense Brian C is right. As soon as CWI/SP gets mentioned on indymedia some contributors go ga ga and we get the same stupid childish spats.....300 members...no, 1000 members etc. Essentially this boils down to little boys comparing willies!

In my contribution, however, I pointed out that the type of exageration engaged in by the CWI was symptomatic of most of the far left. In fact you will find the SWP engaging in a far more duplicitous version because their target is the soft left/ liberal left. The point is that almost the whole alphabet soup of the Irish marxist left: SP, SWP, CPI, SD, ISN etc. display at least some of the symptoms I described.

Perhaps Brian failed to respond to my points, because it far easier to respond to the willy wagglers?

by Joe Wed Sep 29, 2004 13:39

Not at all sure that the ISN belong on your list, they've always come across as quite realistic and down to earth to me.

by hs - sp Wed Sep 29, 2004 18:38

funny the effect these articles have, often people seem to burst into tirades which don't make any sense at all. Where did the article say anything about revolution or mass political parties or thousands joining or anything of the sort. It says the wins were important but nothing more. And it is important to note when hard left parties get some votes (if even a few). Even if it annoys political rivals on the left, (which we all know is actually what the comments are about)

So to recap on the article, socialist alternative wins two local council seats, the third so far, quite important for us. The end

by Tanja Niemeier - cwi Wed Sep 29, 2004 21:21

Germany
Victory for Socialist Alternative candidates on left lists!
Socialist Alternative, the German section of the cwi, scored a great victory in Sunday’s local elections in North Rhine Westphalia, winning two more councillors after initiating and heading two left electoral lists against social cuts in the cities of Aachen and Cologne.

Tanja Niemeier, cwi
Achieving 2,253 votes in Cologne and 785 votes in Aachen, both lists won one council seat in the respective local councils. There was a lot of chanting and singing going on at the well attended election parties in Cologne and Aachen when the news was finalised late on Sunday night. And indeed, this is a marvellous achievement which will strengthen the voice of working class people and the unemployed in the council. Aachen town hall was already half deserted when a group of 30 to 40 members of “Together against social cuts” walked in and chanted “Down with the power of the banks and big business! Down with Hartz IV! (the popular name of the law that will cut unemployment pay).

Marc Treude, a 31 year old shop steward who won the seat in Aachen says:

“I will use my position in the council to speak out for ordinary people in Aachen. I will make sure that the anger against social cuts on local as well as on national level is being heard in the council. I will assist and encourage people to take up the struggle against the worsening of their living conditions in the local communities and in the work places. This is the only way to resist the policies of the pro-big business parties.”

Intense election campaign
During the extremely active and intense election campaign, Socialist Alternative and those who made up the two slates were heavily involved in supporting and co-organising the local Monday demonstrations which have taken place across the country over the past weeks to protest against the national government’s vicious attack on unemployment benefits. When Joschka Fischer, the Green Party’s minister for foreign affairs, visited Aachen, the slate co-organised a protest action against the government minister which resulted in him having to give up his speech after 30 minutes.

Precisely because of its activist, pro-working class and anti big business character, it is not surprising at all that both Socialist Alternative supported slates were largely ignored by the local media during the election campaign.

Despite this, dozens of new people joined the campaigns against social cuts and many more helped out in the election campaign. The role of Socialist Alternative members in the election campaign was widely appreciated and a number of people agreed to join the party.

Ruling parties suffer heavy defeat
Both Aachen and Cologne were ruled by a conservative party (CDU) led coalitions. They lost more than 10% of the vote in both cities and even though it is too early to be definite about it, it is most likely that both cities will see a change in their ruling coalition. Severe local cuts had been introduced by the local councils in the previous period which the ruling parties were punished for.

Given the massive attacks on living standards on a national level which have been carried out by the Social Democratic Party (SPD) led government coalition, the working class is left with hardly any alternative on the electoral plane. This has led to an increased disgust and alienation with the political establishment and explains why it is difficult in convincing working class people to turn out and vote.

These elections saw a weakening of the big traditional pro-cuts parties and an increased vote for smaller parties and independent lists. The PDS, the former East German Communist party, slightly improved their results, largely because of their involvement in the Anti-Hartz protests. This is despite the fact that at regional and citywide level they have carried out cuts in coalition with other parties.

Unfortunately, there was also an increased share in votes for right wing and neo- fascist organisations which once again underlines the urgency to build a new mass workers’ party in Germany.

After getting three councillors elected this year in Germany, Socialist Alternative hopes to speed up that process by arguing for a fighting programme in the meetings held in the run up to the November conference of “Electoral Alternative for Work and Social Justice” that will decide whether to launch a new left party.

by t.c. Thu Sep 30, 2004 14:50

out of something like 16-17,000 council seats in germany the sp have 2,i dont mean to be sectarian but really the winning of these 2 seats is nothing to crow about.

by statistician Thu Sep 30, 2004 15:07

The PDS which got 28% of the vote in Brandenburg, 3% behind the SPD, is said by the SP not to have done as well as it might because it is regarded as a party of "Stalinist careerists" (Being a Stalinist is a really smart move for any young careerist!!). The SA, on the other hand, with about 4,000 votes in the whole of Germany is seen to have made some sort of historic breakthrough!! This is self delusion gone mad.

by sturkuk Fri Oct 01, 2004 13:22

It is true that the PDS are not doing as well as they could have. Remember that these elections have a small turnout especially among the working class. If the PDS were seen differently and if the leadership hadn't been selling out for years they would be able to motivate more people to go out and vote for them.

28% is a good result but just looking at the 28% figure you are ignoring thethe thousends of people that didn't bother to vote.

by sturkuk Fri Oct 01, 2004 13:23

By the way,
Not all careerists are young!

by uncle Joe Fri Oct 01, 2004 14:07

thats more than any mad trotskite group has ever managed to do.
Trotskyism has absolutely noting to offer germans or Irish workers for that matter, and it will never come to power anywhere as most of its adherants are quiet mad at best.

by sturkuk Fri Oct 01, 2004 14:15

Gosh I never knew stalinists actually existed these days. Apart from a few old set in their ways old guys in Connolly Books and a couple of young guys that like to keep them company in a hope of inheriting their valuable property in the centre of Templebar.

Yes Stalinist came to power. But what does this prove? George Bush is in power in the states does this make Bush a great man?! Stalinists came to power through the crushing of workers democracy in Russia, Eastern Europe and China. who was it that were sent to the Gulags? Who was it that were crushed under the tanks of the Chinese Stalinists? It was the working class. Stalinists are the enemies of the working class.

by Socialist Fri Oct 01, 2004 15:50

I quite agree that stalinists are indeed enemies of the working class, who crushed democracy in Russia and elsewhere. They jailed trade unionists, sent them to camps, shot them, stopped the right to vote, banned demonstrations, factions and parties. How can anybody find a logic to defend it? Impossible.

Oh, hang on a moment - didn't all this happen under Lenin and Trotsky too? Suddently, black becomes white, and wrong becomes right . To defend the revolution, they HAD to do this; to defend the revolution they had to desroy its essence. I read in Trot publications all the time that a great workers democracy existed until 1923. Where is the logic or consistency there either? No wonder people give it all a wide berth.....

And then you just look at the internal regimes of all the Trotskyist organisations, including the CWI, tro realise that these people neither know, understand nor care for democracy even today. They are a lost cause, and in essence no better than the stalinists. Certainly no wiser, and certainly no more consistent. Unfortunately.

by statistician Fri Oct 01, 2004 16:12

If the best that Trotskyists can do is rehash that tired old nonsense about everything being fine until 1923 then there is little hope for them. Democracy was crushed in 1918 when all of the Bolsheviks rivals on the left were banned, locked up and murdered. Trotsky was actually the leading advocate of this while Lenin advised his Himmler Dzerzhinsky to throw people out of windows.

As for the substantive point of the thread, if the PDS did badly where in the name of Leon does that leave the so-called Socialist Alternative??

by Lord Haw Haw watch Fri Oct 01, 2004 16:38

"As for the substantive point of the thread, if the PDS did badly where in the name of Leon does that leave the so-called Socialist Alternative??"

As Brian has so well elucidated it means that there is a mood for a new working class party with socialist policies in Germany with the Socialist Alternative being in the van.
'If only Ireland was the same and we could join up with a Stalinist opportunist careerists who do well in elections' (1)

(1) ssshhhh don't tell Brian about Sinn Fein.

by cwi Mon Oct 11, 2004 18:05

Germany
Socialist councillor sacked
Protest against action by Cinram bosses

Socialist Alternative (SAV, cwi in Germany)
On September 26th Marc Treude was elected as councillor in Aachen for the left-wing electoral alliance "Together against social cuts". On October 8th he was sacked by his employers at Cinram for organising resistance against 350 lay-offs in his factory. Marc Treude is a member of Socialist Alternative and a shop steward for the mining, chemical and energy workers' union IG BCE. This right-wing trade union has a bad record in selling out workers to the bosses. Scandalously the IG BCE-led works council did agree to the lay-offs and to the sacking of Marc Treude. This is because in an article for SAV's website www.sozialismus.info Treude spelled out the truth and called for resistance to the planned sackings and the building of an opposition against the trade union leadership.

A solidarity campaign has been started and we call on all cwi members and trade union activists to protest against the sackings.

Write to the Cinram manager: John Fitzgeral via fax at ++49-2404-58111 and call for the immediate re-instatement of Marc Treude and protest against the planned 350 lay-offs.

Please send copies of these letters to : [email protected] and [email protected]