Speakers Square/Cearnóg na gCainteoirí #6 @ Temple Bar, Dublin 30/05/2004

by pc Tue Jun 08, 2004 16:49

...

hen party listening to speakers square

by David Mon Jun 07, 2004 14:16

It seems the only people who are trying to stop people speaking freely are those who object so strenously to the use of the Race concept in opposing the referendum.

We are free to argue that it is racist, others are free to argue that it isn't. That is free speech.

There are other more effective ways to restrict free speech utilised by the right. Restricting access to the public through monopolising views in the mass media for example. The resources of the pro referendum side are vastly greater than those of the anti referendum side, and unless you're in an establishment political party then there is no access to public tv or radio.

If you feel offended by anti referendum campaigners calling the measure racist,. should we feel equally offended by posters claiming that it is common sense (implications being that those opposed to the referendum are irrational or lack sense)

Such dialogue is a waste of precious time, especially considering how little notice was given by the government to allow effective campaigning.

by moonwolf Mon Jun 07, 2004 05:30

Thanks R.Isible,
now im beginning to see . In your world one is either an anarchist or a racist. A unique new worldview.

Independent media / resistence to global governance is NOT the exclusive territory of the anarchist minute minority, a group whose ineffectiveness and ignorance of the REAL issues affecting the people is matched only by their arrogance.

Freedom of speech? you must be joking, once again i accuse you and those who sling deceptive and offensive labels around of being little better than the Israeli terrorists who use the same methods to silence their critics. maybe mossad are anarchist too?

by Buzzby Mon Jun 07, 2004 03:59

"No one is restricting "freedom of speech" for pro-referendum racists. To make it clear to you again: calling someone a racist because they advocate a racist measure is not a restriction of their free speech."

In case you haven't noticed, the European elite are inventing legislation to prosecute anyone who fits into the Red definition of "racist." Therefore, it does affect freedom of speech.

Remember, the definition of "freedom of speech" can also be manipulated for political agendas. You are contributing to strengthening the strangehold of the elite.

by R. Isible Mon Jun 07, 2004 00:30

From Minister McDowell (splurging on about crisis pressure on hostpitals from women with communications difficulties):

Our maternity services come under pressure because they have to deal at short notice with women who may have communications difficulties, about whom no previous history of the pregnancy or of the mother's health is known, and who in about half of the cases of first arrival (according to the Master of the Rotunda, Dr Michael Geary, as interviewed on RTÉ during the week) are already at or near labour. Hospitals cannot predict the demand on resources from month to month, and all the resources in the world would be of little use in dealing with suddenly-presenting crisis pregnancies.
http://www.justice.ie/80256976002CB7A4/vWeb/fsWMAK4Q7JKY

I'll dig out some more later.

by moonwolf Sun Jun 06, 2004 23:31

In your opinion the referendum is a race issue. The No campaign has made it a race issue. Nowhere in any of the referendum commission literature or the literature of any of the major parties who support a yes vote have i seen any reference to "jobs" or "housing" being "stolen" or otherwise. Perhaps you can tell me where you read it? Facts?
In terms of free speech, to victimise those of an opposing opinion whether it be by force or by the tactic of labelling "israeli" style amounts to oppression of freedom of speech, so cut the crap and be hoinest about it . The no campaign labelling anyone opposed to their view as racist is directly responsibile for thousands of ordinary citizens being afraid to express their legitimately held opinions. That is an infringement of free speech and you know it, it's why you do it!
Furthermore i don't behave"like" a racist neither do i support those of the extreme right who are most definately racist. Finally i won't allow your "israeli" tactics deter me from holding the opinion that the referendum is a good idea and that it is a reasonable approach of any structured society to protect itself from unlimited immigration. Perhaps post referendum we will at last have the ability to put in place a coherent and effective immigration policy.

by R. Isible Sat Jun 05, 2004 21:05

No one is restricting "freedom of speech" for pro-referendum racists. To make it clear to you again: calling someone a racist because they advocate a racist measure is not a restriction of their free speech.

by Buzzby Sat Jun 05, 2004 20:01

You Reds make me laugh. You nearly wet yourselves in defence of freedom of speech, and meanwhile your ultra-liberalism causes you to restrict such freedom for those who do not agree with your world-view. If you are so liberal, why is there no room for pro-referendum people, anti-abortion campaigners or the Catholic Church? It wouldn't be because you're hell bent on destroying them, would it?

by R. Isible Sat Jun 05, 2004 18:59

benny wrote: "your clearly a middle class and u is jumping down by throat"

And that means that what I say must be wrong? Address the arguments not the person.

benny wrote: "on an irish and esp global level the future lies with the uncouth "the scumbags " as it were"

Why do you insist on talking about scumbags and now bring in the "uncouth"? Do you really believe that anyone that isn't middle class is an uncouth scumbag? Again you are generalising and you have nothing to back it up. Just throwing out the provocative insults.

benny wrote: "not with the comfy middle class with due to their social skillz and inheritance find a vested interest in the perpetuation of capitalism"

Can't disagree with that.

benny wrote: "im not generalizing just speking generally"

When you assume that all people that are not "middle class" are uncouth scumbags that are pro-referendum then you are generalising. When you assume that all people that are activists are middle class then you are generalising. It's the sort of generalising that lies at the bottom of racism and snobbery. (Oh and btw if you read indymedia.ie you'll quickly discover that all those anarcos are actually middle-class law students)

benny wrote: "the enemys are in suits im am working class and completely anti ref 4 free movement 4 all"

I don't care if you're lumpenproletarian-subdivision-4 or displaced-colonial-rentier-class-resident-in-Barcelona. All I'm interested in is that you advanced the opinion that the "pro-referendum/racist" speaker held his opinions because he was working class and has seen council houses taken away by immigrants. You have no proof for that.

benny wrote: "the point of the ref is divide and rule and to get irish working class to be anti immigrant as opposed to being anti boss"

Can't disagree with that.

by benny blanco from the squat - crips Sat Jun 05, 2004 03:30

ok tough guy well u wallow in your aggressive political correctness i'll carry on

your clearly a middle class and u is jumping down by throat

my post began by agreeing with what the good brother ciaron was saying about class, and how this pro ref guy was working class and talk a lot of shit but he conceded some points and showed ptential

with some genuine political engagement he could end up a sound guy anarco blak as fuk

most activists are middle class and liker to surround themselves with people like them who have read the write books and have all the right ideas

on an irish and esp global level the future lies with the uncouth "the scumbags " as it were

the wretched of the earth if like

not with the comfy middle class with due to their social skillz and inheritance find a vested interest in the perpetuation of capitalism

im not generalizing just speking generally

the enemys are in suits im am working class and completely anti ref 4 free movement 4 all

the point of the ref is divide and rule and to get irish working class to be anti immigrant as opposed to being anti boss

ribles you should engage in self critique an stop acting like a kno it all

squtting continues

broke but not broken
benee

by Ciaron Sat Jun 05, 2004 03:27

I think it was the pro-ref guy's statement that there shouldn't be black & white manequins in store fronts in Dublin only white ones...that lead folks to jump to the conclusion that he was racist....rather than simply his position on the referendum

by R. Isible Sat Jun 05, 2004 00:33

That means I can call you a racist if you behave like a racist.
You can call yourself what you like of course, but it's your actions and your support of others' actions that determine how you're perceived.
The referendum is objectively racist in its outcome and its presentation and delivery by the government and media has relied upon unsupported allegations of there being various problems to do with "housing" and "jobs" being taken away by foreigners (or the threat of that).

by moonwolf Sat Jun 05, 2004 00:20

Free speech? it's hard to reconcile the notion of free speech with the attitude of referring to all those who support the yes campaign as racist. Are they not entitled to their point of view ?. This kind of bullyiing of the opposition to ones point of view is reminiscent of the Israeli tag of "Anti-Jewish" for all who oppose their campaign of terror in Palestine. Free speech is either just that or it is nothing....to quote a great thinker "I may not agree with what you say, but I defend to the death your right to say it"

by R. Isible Sat Jun 05, 2004 00:19

You're full of generalisations about everyone and you've got nothing to support them e.g.:
People that oppose the referendum are "middle class"
The racist that spoke at Speakers Square is "seein blaks and rumanians"
etc.
Basically you like to generalise and avoid specifics. What's wrong? Got no facts? Afraid to state your own opinions? Rather assume that the world is divided between "genuine" "working class" "pro-referendum" "heads" versus "middle class" "skin up" "anarchists"?
Post something informative about your own opinions or the opinion of someone that you've talked to, but don't go shoving presumed words into people's mouths and then tying them to stereotypes.

by benny blanco from the squat - crips Fri Jun 04, 2004 23:53

yo risible you b man

i was jus saying that what the pro ref guy wd say

at the mo no one canget a council gaff

i never said people are being denied council gaff cos theyre full of blax so step the fuk bak

any way

no borders no nations the enemy is wearing suits

by iosaf - backpeddling like the dalkey archives. Fri Jun 04, 2004 19:12

didn't want to get up your nosey. well i did at the time, but having been up a lot of noseys of late, I'm sort of thinking best to know exactly you can down someone's nosey without being snotted.
befuddled and on occasions not making my point the right way.
We are at risk from cults. what i was trying to get across.
not just moomoo heads, but their islamic equivalents as well, and that's how to think about it. And that means thinking through all the techniques we know to have been used by similar elsewhere.

by Eoin Dubsky Fri Jun 04, 2004 10:47

I'll try to make it on Sunday for this. NewsTalk106 are having a few MEP-hopefuls on at around 11am or so on Sunday too.

by Damien Moran Fri Jun 04, 2004 05:40

Agree with pro-ref rather than racist label, despite the varying degrees and extremes proponents are willing to go, it’s a safer and less judgemental/your black-I’m white (pardon the pun) generalisation. Call me middle–class if you want. Don’t find such labels fit a South-western BIFFO too well, especially when I spent a good 14 summers working in the bog. My dad worked as labourer in ESB for 40 years (impressive tally compared to the modern unease of wandering to find oneself) and mam a societal and state unrecognised domestic worker. I teach Chinese and Central European students English and do relief work with the Depaul Trust’s wet house shelter (residents permitted to drink) at the weekends so didn’t find it hard to comprehend the pro-ref guy’s perspective. I found it unfortunate that he had to direct his fury towards others who are in the minority, margins, and vulnerable. Seems like the have-nots should team up against the land-speculators, health officials responsible for years of cutbacks, and visionless politicians who have done little to promote integration or assimilation of the less economically viable non-nationals. Let’s not forget Mary Harney has been busy recruiting non-nationals in South Africa and the Phillippines, and the vast majority of our urban menial service jobs are held by non-nationals for various different reasons, i.e. rapid deflation of dissent due to the unspoken realisation of being let go (at least if my student’s essays are anything to go by).
There were a few secondary-school Malahiders whose accents gave Paul (pro-ref guy) ample fodder for refutation. Not too many asylum seeker hostels out that neck of the woods. One interesting comment rang bells with the stick with which you measure is the same stick by which you will be measured. Negative re-inforcement certainly seems par for the course between the under-class inner-city/former inner-city (pre-Dub. Corp. ethnic cleansing) community.
Interesting to reflect on the initial arguments put out by the Minister for Justice for the referndum. Prevent rather than cure the aftermath of the floodgates. Well, looks like the floodgates are receding. As far as I am aware the figures of those seeking asylum in 1990/91 was a mere 350/500 people. This peaked at almost 12,000 in 2002, but had fallen to below 8,000 in 2003. An average 1/3 drop has been recorded in all E.U. (pre-May 1st, 2004) states in the same period. Labour’s spokesperson on Justice, Joe Costello, recently asked the Minister for Justice on the most recent figures (monthly) of asylum seekers. To-date I believe the number is below 2,000 and looks set to hit around the 5/6000 mark for the year 2004. A dramatic 50% decline form 2002. In this light, is it necessary to make an amendment to the constitution.
Not sure whether it is because of an increasingly sophisticated pan-European crackdown on those entering or that our brothers and sisters are now becoming aware that they may be the architect’s of their own downfall by registering in the first place and entrusting authorities with their future security.
The Methodist church has been the first of the mainstream churches to come out in favour of a no vote, while the Catholic co-adjutor Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin (who does most of his pastoral ministry via public transport), strongly questioned the necessity of the referendum in an interview with the Irish Times (May 29th, 2004).
The theme, ‘welcoming the stranger’, was well propagated and reported around the St. Patrick’s Day period.
I suggest one needs a strong collective statement from the main Christian denominations if the ‘no’ campaign is to succeed.
A recent opinion poll showing 72% were confused doesn’t bear much light for a democratic referendum. Was in the U.S. for the first Nice Treaty so not sure was the same ambiguity there a week and a half before that (unrecognised) vote? I wonder are we more inclined to vote conservatively on the neutrality issue (before we were sold the Seville declaration lie of course)
than liberally on this pending citizenship issue. Time will tell. Maybe this Sunday’s Speaker’s Corner will throw some light on the subject. See you all there.


www.ploughsharesireland.org

by Ciaron Fri Jun 04, 2004 01:11

Point taken..."pro-referendum" more accurate than "racist guy"....sloppy writing there. Was thinking the same thing as I was heading to work tonight.

by R. Isible Thu Jun 03, 2004 22:59

"Benny blanco" wrote: "hes reakting to the ref thing cos hes poor he wants council gaff and he s 'seeing thoses blacks and remanians getting them an him his are not' "

Have you got some proof of people being denied council houses because they're full of blacks and romanians? Go on, give us a source, just one source. Ah go on!

by benny blanco from the squat - the crips Thu Jun 03, 2004 20:52

nice 1 this is cool

big yourselves up ciaron and friends

yeah have to agree with you about the pro ref guy, its so easy for middle class people 2have nice ideas about the world, oh yeaa im a vegan anarchist skin up man, oh dairy horrible, no borders yeah sure no problem,

probaby this pro ref dude can end up really sound, hes reakting to the ref thing cos hes poor he wants council gaff and he s 'seeing thoses blacks and remanians getting them an him his are not'

the point is the middle class activists are living in la la land calling for solidarity and chiapas and fuck bush but scarred of the 'scum bags' down the road9like real working class peweps0

end poit

our largely middle class movement can say fuk corporation s global resistance

but the same people cant critique their own privelege parents incoime eyc etc

the revolution will be televised

anachy and humilty
challenge your privelege and stop fuking posing

yeah but the speakers thing is acool idea i'll be down talking about class self critique and medicine as social control

by Phil Boylan Thu Jun 03, 2004 19:48

I was just wondering what time does it all kick off at. I was there for about 10 mins 2 weeks ago when you guys were protesting the La Salle coming over. I didn't stick around, I had to go and spend some of my hard earned money on CDs and stuff, I may be out and about this Sunday and I was just wondering what time are you kicking it all off at??

I also don't think you should be refer to the opposing Pro-Ref guy as the Racist Guy. Its offensive, while you feel he might be racist it doesn't mean he is. Whats racist to some is not racist to others. I mean I might think that Ciaron and the Pitstop guys are all Naive little fools, but I wouldn't go around saying that. Its not fair to label any and everyone who is going to vote for the Referendum as a racist, it would be akin to me calling all anti-war people Communist. I do not know why some people are Anti-war, its their choice and I am sure its a valid one, maybe they are communist and that is the only reason why, maybe they are not, either way it is wrong and naive of me to think that just coz someone is anti-war they are communist. Likewise it is wrong of you to believe that just coz someone is pro-Ref they are a Racist.

I am Pro-Ref by the way. I have my reasons and I have my reasons why I don't wanna vote Anti-Ref, both are my business and I sure as hell am not getting up on a soapbox on a sunday morning to spout on about em. I applaud anyone who does by the way, fair play to you.

Anyway I digress, looking forward to seeing you this weekend, and try to keep things a little more balanced.

by jeff Thu Jun 03, 2004 19:33

your song was crap, stick on some drum n' bass will ye?

:0(

by jeff Thu Jun 03, 2004 19:32

they are the future of the country

Mr. Redjade, appreciate your honesty. It is just that the photo captions make those kids appear to be siding with the leftist guy as oppossed to the 'wobbling to the right cos of de methodone' guy.

Again, horaay for kids

:0(

by redjade Thu Jun 03, 2004 19:28

'I bet you are pretending that the kids were "slagging" him.'

they kids were having fun with him, I'd say. I didn't get the impression the kids cared about what he said they just played with him a bit (and Damien as well) and then went off.

by redjade Thu Jun 03, 2004 19:26

Mary Lou Mac Donald will not be speaking at the weekend's Speakers' Corner - I got it wrong. Sorry for the confusion

by jeff Thu Jun 03, 2004 18:05

BTW,have you any proof the kids were taking the piss out of him, or were you just saying that to look cool. There are racist kids y'know. Some kids are truley evil. Look at the Bulger kid's murderers. They were only 11!

I bet you are pretending that the kids were "slagging" him. I'm sorry I am not as optomistic as you guys.

:0(

by jeff Thu Jun 03, 2004 18:02

he looks working class, anti ref looks middle class.

Therefore, the left should ditch the traditional solidarity it has with this " working class" ( who are today generally employed in the service sector) and call for a new form of 21st century humanism. Then, people of all classes might heed this.

Class war dies after ww11, and especially died after Thatcher.

by iosaf mac diarmada .:. fraternité - (when Minister minds as delicate as ours bid you listen, you had better lend us your ears. Thu Jun 03, 2004 15:16

Here follows a song of the Roma, the principle gypsy people of Central Europe, with translation. A people described by Günther Grass, as being the true europeans. A people who have been persecuted without let, for over three centuries. A people who's numbers lost to the Holocaust have still only be estimated.
A people who are consistently confused with Rumanian by those too ignorant to simlarly distinguish between Erse and Irish.

In 1933, the "Law Against Dangerous Habitual Criminals" was passed in Germany. Under this law, the police began arresting Romani along with others labeled "asocial." Beggars, vagrants, the homeless, and alcoholics were arrested and sent to the holding work camps which would so soon become concentration camps.

The Nuremberg racial laws of September 15, 1935, did not specifically mention Romani, but they were included along with Jews and "Negroes" as "racially distinctive" minorities with "alien blood." This law was copied throughout right wing Europe, within two years, the Chemist Primo Levi had found himself without academic appointment, without home, : _without_ ("in it's shakespearian sense").

By 1938 the Romani of Central Europe under German rule, had rounded up _all_ Roma and sent them to the camps. There they wore black triangular patches (the symbol for "asocials") or green patches (the symbol for professional criminals) and sometimes the letter "Z." It is estimated, that between 220,000 to 500,000 died. That is the population of Limerick and Galway.

Their persecution had arguably begun to be legislated in 1539, when the King of Denmark (and ruler of most of the Baltic) gave edict that any Roma found was to be put to death.

Their persecution, has never stopped.
The latest legislation against this group will be voted upon on June 11th.

Djelem, djelem, lungone dromensa
maladilem baxtale Romensa
djelem, djelem, lungone dromensa
maladilem baxtale Romensa.
Ay Romale, Ay chavale,
Ay Romale, Ay chavale.
Ay Romale, katar tumen aven
le tserensa baxtale dromensa.

Vi man sas u bari familya
Tai mudarya la ekali legiya.

Aven mansa sa lumiake Roma
Kai putaile le Romane droma
Ake vryama - ushti Rom akana
Ame xutasa mishto kai kerasa.
Ay Romale, Ay chavale,
Ay Romale, Ay chavale.
=
I've travelled over long roads
I've met lucky Roma.
Ive travelled far and wide.
I've met lucky Roma.
Oh Roma men, Oh Roma youth
Oh Roma men, Oh Roma youth
Oh Roma men, from whence have you come
with your tents along such lucky roads?

I too once had a large family

but the black legions came
and murdered them
come with me
Roma of the world
To where the Romani roads
have been opened
Now is the Time!
Arise Roma!
We shall succeed where we make effort-
Oh Roma men, Oh Roma youth
Oh Roma men, Oh Roma youth


************************************
the link will bring the reader to a yiddish poem I left some weeks ago, itself also a song of a people now exterminated in civilised times of secured modernity, by legislators that were perhaps to well educated to understand how hate is built and cemented and how a holding camp may turn so quickly to the Holocaust.
*************************************
You have enough laws Minister, to protect your four million people, why you could leave some on the statute books that treated upon your ancestors.
**************************************
if you'd like a CD version of this song, with snippets of bulgarian music, arabic music of the maghreb and yiddish songs, and for some unknown reason now, a setting of Irish famine songs, mail me. We still have some unsold.

by Ciaron - Dublin Catholic Worker Thu Jun 03, 2004 14:41 087 918 4552

Well this was probably the weakest one we've had. The weather didn't help. General numbers in the Temple Bar area were way down.

I wasn't in much form after 2 nights on the beer and a ten mile famine walk in Mayo in between. Throat was gone, head scrambled and folks (as pictured) were standing way back in case it started raining again, didn't help the throat. Pulled off a RTE radio interview that played the next day.

The racist guy was the only one else to kick off a soapbox. He was challenged by Damien (debate is what draws a crowd in the soapbox scene!) who were willing to stand close in the light rain.

It's great that this guy got up...terrible politics but very articulate and pretty humourous. He also conceded certain arguments from the crowd and I'm sure there's a lot of potential there for growth and shedding the racism. Abusing him or trying to chase him off is a mistake, the young working class kidz pictured are in his corner. But there is a lot of potential there to if the left would engage them as much as they do privileged students etc.

Hyde Park corner has been largely been reduced to a fundamentalist swampland becaus ethe left don't see as much value in it as they do in chasing the mirage of mainstream media coverage.

Next weekend should be big (as the first one was)...but we need a few more commited individuals & groups to commit longterm for this phenomenon to become a permanent beachhead for free expression.

Free Speech - Use it or Lose it!

by pc Thu Jun 03, 2004 13:24

he came back did he, hmmm committed

by alert to inflitrators! Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:14

and is not to be confused with a East Latvian appearing South Dubliner.

by redjade Thu Jun 03, 2004 10:38

Speakers Square - Cearnóg na gCainteoirí
Pre-Election Day Special Event
6 Sunday June 2pm to 6pm
http://freespeech.community.ie
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

On Sunday June 6th, Local and European election candidates from many of the Political Parties will converge on the Speakers Square in Temple Bar to talk about their candidacy, the upcoming referendum and other issues they are passionate about.

This is the first time such an event has occurred in the electoral history of Ireland and is the only chance the voting public will get to hear party representatives orate, challenge and debate with other candidates  in an open forum.

There are at any one time five speaking podiums on the square, which will allow
for participating candidates to be divided by their constituencies.

Those who have agreed to speak are:

Ivana Bacik (EU) - Orla Farrell (Nth Ctrl) - Dathaí Doolin (Sth Est) - Willie Hamilton (Nth Ctrl) - Robbie Sargent (Sth Ctrl) - Paddy Burke (Nth Ctrl) - Tony Smithers (Sth Ctrl) - Dermot Lacey (Sth Est) - Ciarán Mac Anraí (Ctrl) - Eric Burn (Sth Ctrl) - Sinéad Pembrooke(Sth Est) - Sean Kenny (North Central) - Gearóid Ó Maol Mhichíl (Sth Ctrl) - Denis McIntyre (Nth Ctrl) - Patricia McKenna (EU) - Ryan Meade - Tony Williams (Sth Est) - Tommy Simpson - Naoise Ó Muirí (Nth Ctrl) - Terry Connoly (Sth Est) - Dan  Sullivan (Nth Ctrl) - Bríd Smith (Sth Ctrl) - John Barry(Sth Est) - Richard Boyd Barrett(SW) - Eoin Ryan(EU) - Eion Dubsky (EU) - Kristina Mc Elroy (Sth Ctrl) and others added everyday....

Candidates yet to be contacted
Gary Keegan(Sth Est) - Michael Donnelly(Sth Est) and others

Those who are yet to confirm
Prionsias de Rossa (L)
Royston Brady (FF)
Phil Kearney (GP)
Evlyn Burn (FF)
Paul Mac Caulis (PD)
Brian Tector (FG)
Wendy Hedderman (PD)
Larry O Toole (SF)
Pat Bunce (FF)


The event will kick off at 2.30pm and will continue throughout the day till around 6 or 7pm.

ALL are welcome to speak - politicians or normal people.

Those wishing to have their names added to the list
or those wishing to speak, please contact....

Rossa Ó Snodaigh 086 8260860
E-mail: [email protected]
Web:
http://freespeech.community.ie
http://www.indymedia.ie

by redjade Thu Jun 03, 2004 10:11

.

Pro-Ref Guy talks with the kids (kids actually taking the piss out of him)

Graffiti, two blocks away on Dame Street.