Anti-Fascism talk and discussion

by pc Fri May 14, 2004 15:27

for a different point of view be might be worth sitting in on

but

"His story proves how physical confrontation can change minds." ?????

by Ali la Pointe - fite dem back / Never Again! Fri May 14, 2004 15:46

THE FULL QUOTE IS

"The book ends with a testimony from an ex-fascist who was on the receiving end of several beatings from anti-fascists. He explains how they helped him to realise fascists were not the undefeatable master race they claimed to be. He subsequently became a committed anti-fascist and was involved in many attacks on his former comrades. His story proves how physical confrontation can change minds."

FAIR ENOUGH, REALLY.

IT GOES ON TO SAY;

No Retreat highlights the dangers of leaving the fight against racism and fascism to the placard-waving middle classes or the professional, well-salaried anti-racist lobby.

by pc Fri May 14, 2004 16:05

one might need to take a much harder line and the point about their actions being unreported but that quote stands on it own and worries me

by sammy - free speech is a right Fri May 14, 2004 16:14

militant anti-fascists is a contradiction in terms.

by kokomero Fri May 14, 2004 17:48

all of the Partisans who fought the facists in WWII. Does the fact they fought against the facists make them no longer anti-facists? According to your rationale should we all just lie down and accept defeat as soon as facists start to throw their weight around??

by berniebird Fri May 14, 2004 19:50

the fight on the street was important, a show of solidarity for tolerance of all beings... the idealogical battle however, was what it was all about... Suggested reading: the Searchlight publication of "White Noise" by Nick Lowles and Steve Silver, analysing the promotion of fascism through music in the 90's... there's a multi-million euro white-power-punk industry out there, increasingly prevalent in our new EU joinees, (Poland particularly), and mostly based from Sweden, where free-speech laws do not include measures against "incitement to hatred"...
When I was living in Berlin I was witness to much neo-nazi activity, generally directed towards the community of Kurdish refugees with which I was living... in 1999 I fought with 200 black-bloc activists against a gathering of several hundred nazis at the Brandenberg Tor... that made international news... The following year I was hospitalized after being attacked by two skinheads in Bremen, they called shouted "Auslander Raus" while they kicked me unconcious...
I don't believe that Fascism (as in the outmoded 20thC "3rd politick") is any more a threat in Europe... but it does exist... I don't believe it will ever gain a real foothold in Ireland, but the Irish should be concious at least that this is in some parts of their new expanded EU community, quite normal for nazi skinheads to hold recruitment drive in low-income neighbourhoods and organize actions of hostility towards people of any different colour, religon, sexual orientation,etc...

As a footnote, I have read recently that there is an ongoing scandal in Russia (of all places, who suffered so much from the German invasion of 1941-1944) of several (Kremlin) politicians implicated in funding and organizing neo-nazi youth gangs in several major cities (and in particular St. Petersburg)... in the last 2 years hate-crimes against foreign workers andjews have exploded there...
anyway...

by pc Fri May 14, 2004 20:24

would it not be more productive to help educate the people they want to recruit then having scraps with them?

by Michael McKeown Fri May 14, 2004 21:19

"Dave Hann is co-author with Steve Tilzey of ‘No Retreat’. Both are veterans of the many physical confrontations which took place between the militant anti-fascists of AFA and members of the National Front, the BNP and Combat 18 in Manchester in the period 1977 to 1997, a tactic that eventually forced the fascists off the streets across Britain........"

.......... and meanwhile "the streets" had a new set of Red, anarchist thugs calling the shots.

Whether Combat 18 OR anarchists - they're just all scumbags with little to do only break limbs and windows. Thugs like Dave Hann and Steve Tilzey have nothing to cheer about.

by berniebird Sat May 15, 2004 10:17

I don't like where this thread is going...
I am going to be as blunt as possible... if neo-nazi youth gangs were not kept in check in the 80's in Britain and in the 90's in Germany and Poland, there would be very serious problems today and probably many thousands of people dead in racial murders, and open street warfare.
I do not truck with any argument that anarchists stomp about breaking peoples limbs... I have been a commited activist for 15 years and have NEVER seen or heard of such a thing occur...
I have, however, witnessed violence towards immigrant, traveller, and left-wing communities... in the form of petrol-bombs, snatch-squads and punishment-beatings...

I want to say something in praise of the German Anti-Fa in particular... during the 90's when many Kurds and Kosovans fled to Germany (possibly a half million), these refugees struggled to survive (and a vital part of cheap-labour for the German economy) under constant threat of attack on the streets or in their shelters (remember the massacre at Rostock?)... when such attacks occured, these people could not approach the authorities (the Law) because of their illegal status... the only form of protection they had, anywhere in the world, was from the commited AntiFa, who (for all intents and purposes) acted as widely and efficiently as a police force, acting intelligently enough not to resort to revenge, but to look at prevention... establishing community centers, educational initiatives, creating local festivals, restoring buildings... the Anti-Fa achieved more through vision and will than any government could have done in some of Germany's most run-down urban-areas... and that, simply, is incredible...

I tire of reading the cynical outlook of the Irish Indymedia, that I visit less and less frequently...
All I can do is be like the old man and tell my stories...

In 1997 I stood in Dover and faced the BNP with about a hundred activists from Brighton... the police came from all the surrounding counties, over a thousand of them, in boats, choppers, horseback, vans, with dogs, in helmets etc, to "prevent a confrontation" but in fact just to help the Nazi's do their march (they came far and wide, most from Brum)... we stood together and faced them down... and got our asses kicked... but we (the Anti-Fa) took a good look at each other that day... we were few, but we were the ones they wanted to wipe out... the wops, the queers, the pakis, the paddies....

by Michael McKeown Sat May 15, 2004 16:07

Don't make me laugh, bernie.

You cannot be so naive as to think that thugs exist on only one side.

by Vic P Fri Sep 03, 2004 18:38 vicvillain at hotmail dot com

This condemnation of a physical opposition to fascism is absolutely ridiculous! The nature of fascism both then and now involves physical confrontation and intimidation. Football firms ('hooligans') today, are full of fascists and loyalists who still embrace violence and extreme right wing politics....and as no retreat reports violence and intimidation were tactics of fascists then. Are those who label AFA members 'thugs' better because they seek peaceful resolutuions to the problem of fascism? Fascist ideology supports conflict and struggle so opposition to fascism must be one of conflict and struggle too...whether physically or ideologically. How can one rationalise their argument against fascism with someone who believes something as irrational as supremacy of a race?? Those who engage in rascist violence and intimidation understand only the means by which they behave....and must receive what they are happy to dish out! Violence is a reality and cannot be condemed absolutely...this taking the 'moral highground' is all very well but do chanting, placards and distributing educational papers to already like minded people on fascism stop it? I think not. I for one support the actions of AFA 100% and i think they should be held with the very highest regard. I wonder how many of those who have condemed AFA's actions are too scared to physically oppose fascism themselves? Each to their own and all that but don't judge something that has undeniably helped the fight against these morons.