Phoenix article on "Freedom Institute"

by eeekkk (mouse in da house) Fri Jul 01, 2005 15:23

*some deleted some not*



Commenting Guidelines



Regarding Joe Higgin's apology I had gathered some info on General Electric's past and present - this might add some context.
redjade | Homepage | 30.06.05 - 2:35 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Would you put an extract up in the comment so we can decide whether or not to follow the link?
The maximum comment length has now been extended.
Also, I imagine plenty of organisations block the indymedia domains.
Peter Nolan | Homepage | 30.06.05 - 2:54 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Also, I imagine plenty of organisations block the indymedia domains."
Is this a threat? I thought you people were libertarians?
some browser | 30.06.05 - 4:47 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

We need an award for the most ridiculous or paranoid comment of the week, if only to nominate the above.
(1) No, it's not a threat, but a statement of fact.
(2) We don't have the power to control other peoples' firewall policies.
(3) We wouldn't if we did.
(4) You simply can't be serious.
Richard Waghorne | Homepage | 30.06.05 - 4:57 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quite a few commercial and government organisations do prevent access using their machines to anything obscene, to email sites such as hotmail and to blogs as well. This can be for security reasons (Indy are reading all those IPs, after all), to stop people publishing comments that could be taken as being on behalf of the organisation and to try and corral people into not browsing during working hours.
For my part, I'd never go onto Indymedia with my business machine.
Peter Nolan | Homepage | 30.06.05 - 5:01 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quite a few commercial and government organisations do prevent access using their machines to anything obscene, to email sites such as hotmail and to blogs as well.
Presumably the same restrictions would apply to this site then, wouldn't they?
This is, after all, a blog.
banned poster | 30.06.05 - 5:38 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, quite possibly.
Richard Waghorne | Homepage | 30.06.05 - 5:38 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

indymedia ireland does not log ip addresses. Perhaps you'd like to retract the above or else offer any evidence you might have for same statement - apart from anonymous internet postings of course.
eeekkkkk | 30.06.05 - 8:34 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Presumably the same restrictions would apply to this site then, wouldn't they?"
Well that would be the perogative of the network administrators obviously. If someone wants to block us - they can - be it for the fact that reading/posting takes up too much time or someone finds our content objectionable.
So once more we ask (as we are by now wont to do on this blog) - are you actually arguing a point or are you just offering an objection for the sake of it?
Keith Mallon | Homepage | 30.06.05 - 10:43 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do we have mice in the blog?
"indymedia ireland does not log ip addresses. "
"Indymedia does not retain IP addresses of posters, except in specific, rare cases when we are required to identify addresses of specific abusers to defend the site from attack."
http://lists.indymedia.org/piper...ay/0530- mi.html
"Perhaps you'd like to retract the above or else offer any evidence you might have for same statement - apart from anonymous internet postings of course."
Well, it's hardly my fault if all you guys publish is 'anonymous internet postings', is it?
Having problems with those archive searches? I know the feeling. I didn't see this until Indymedia Ireland Watch pointed it out to me.
Peter Nolan | Homepage | 01.07.05 - 2:10 am | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------


So once more we ask (as we are by now wont to do on this blog) - are you actually arguing a point or are you just offering an objection for the sake of it?
Sorry that the obvious implication escaped you.
If indymedia is likely to be blocked, then the freedom fries blog is equally likely to be blocked. There's no merit to posting indymedia quotes here to avoid corporate firewall restrictions.
banned poster | 01.07.05 - 10:04 am | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, having it on our own domain is one reason for hosting it here rather than on blogspot.
Peter Nolan | Homepage | 01.07.05 - 10:22 am | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

having it on our own domain is one reason for hosting it here rather than on blogspot.
Just like indymedia do. We're back to my original point.
banned poster | 01.07.05 - 11:27 am | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, because restriction policies are typically set by individuals administrators. As anyone who's worked behind a firewall will attest, there's rarely much of a discernable rationale for the choices made.
Some places will allow indymedia and not the FI, it is fair to surmise, and some will allow the FI and not indymedia. (Additionally, there'll be places that allow both and places that allow neither)
There's a clear benefit to posting excerpts alongside links: anyone who can access this site and not the other, whatever the circumstances, gets to keep abreast of the conversation (if, that is, anyone is enough of a masochist to read through pages of arguing for the sake of arguing like this thread).
And moreover, it's always a good rule of thumb to post an extract anyway, if it doesn't get in the way of your doing something else.
Richard Waghorne | Homepage | 01.07.05 - 1:33 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

And moreover, it's always a good rule of thumb to post an extract anyway, if it doesn't get in the way of your doing something else.
Can we expect you to post extracts that back up to (so far unsubstatiated) claims made here:
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...74750151430425/
banned poster | 01.07.05 - 2:23 pm | #

by eeerkkkk (mad as hell and not gonna take it anymore) Fri Jul 01, 2005 14:44

url for above:
http://www.nationmaster.com/ency...darity- Movement
banned poster | 28.06.05 - 1:05 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"May 2 is the 122nd day of the year in the Gregorian calendar (123rd in leap years). ... 2003 is a common year starting on Wednesday of the Gregorian calendar. ... In politics, left-wing, political left, leftism, or simply the left, are terms that refer (with no particular precision) to the segment of the political spectrum typically associated with any of several strains of socialism, social democracy, or liberalism (especially but not exclusively in the American sense of the word... The Guardian is a British newspaper owned by the Guardian Media Group. ... January 17 is the 17th day of the year in the Gregorian Calendar. ... 2004 is a leap year starting on Thursday of the Gregorian calendar. ... CNN or Cable News Network is a cable television network that was founded in 1980 by Ted Turner & Reese Schonfeld [1] [2] (although he currently is not recognized in CNNs official history). ... Rafah (Arabic: ??? Hebrew: ????) is a town in"
Interesting cut and paste.
No links for your claims, eh?
Richard Waghorne | Homepage | 28.06.05 - 2:03 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"May 2 is the 122nd day of the year in the Gregorian calendar (123rd in leap years)."
Yeah, what is this - the Da Vinci Code?
Peter Nolan | Homepage | 28.06.05 - 2:09 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are none so blind as those who will not see.
Congrats boys on your outstanding capacity for denial.
banned poster | 28.06.05 - 2:16 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[deleted - personal abuse]
2. Corrie was defending tunnels.
Eh no, the IDF were levelling ground looking for explosives, and there weren't any tunnels found in that location following teh demolition of the doctor's house.
3. Shadi Sukiya, the supposed terrorist arrested in the ISM office, was not known to the ISM, and he has never been actually charged with any crime, but rather interned without charge.
4. No weapons have been found in ISM offices.
5. There's no evidence to link Asif Mohammad Hanif and Omar Khan Sharif to the Alternative Tourism Group, and no such charge has been made by the Israeli authorities.
6. Asif Mohammad Hanif and Omar Khan Sharif 'exploited left wing activists... for the purpose of covering their movements ... even though the latter were unwitting' according to the Israeli report into the lead up to the bombings. There was no 'all day meeting' but rather a 15 minute conversation over tea amongst a larger group attending a memorial service for Corrie.
7. There's nothing to substantiate the claim that the relationship between Asif Mohammad Hanif or Omar Khan Sharif and Rachel Corrie as one of 'comrades'. She was dead before they arrived in Gaza, and other ISM members didn't know who they were.
8. No matter what facts are presented before the freedom fries institute, they would rather ignore then in favour of a discredited rag like FrontPage.
Edited By Siteowner
banned poster | 28.06.05 - 3:48 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tick, tock, tick, tock....
Google has it's limits, eh? Keep at it, you might uncover the links yet....
Richard Waghorne | Homepage | 28.06.05 - 4:03 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll come back to BP later - his sources are BS, such as they are and so slow as they were in appearing.
Peter Nolan | Homepage | 28.06.05 - 4:05 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll come back to BP later - his sources are BS
What a joke. Let's see; Associated Press, the IDF press officer, The Guardian, The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs, first person witnesses.
And you point to a pathetic rag like FrontPage?
Support your claims with evidence if you stand over them.
banned poster | 28.06.05 - 4:09 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"this strange environment, with its Famous Five codenames, bizarre flame wars, the strange groupuscules which seem to exist nowhere else, the full flowering of unhinged paranoia and an all-embracing indulgence towards some pet causes of the modern fringe"
Unintended irony, thy name is 'Freedom Institute'.
EWI | Homepage | 28.06.05 - 8:24 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

BP, the only person evading here is, as usual, you.
We gave you our sources, the Jerusalem Post, Daily Telegraph and Front Page and then, months after your claims first surfaced you've dragged in some pretty strange material.
On the first one, I have to say, you've surpassed yourself! Where should one go for unbiased and independent evaluations of the ISM? If you'll notice the header on the story at Scoop (http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0304/ S00008.htm_), it says "Press Release: International Solidarity Movement". So in other words, the ISM is x and y because the ISM themselves claim so.
Forgive me for not finding this convincing.
Peter Nolan | Homepage | 29.06.05 - 1:24 am | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Telegraph article you link to does nothing to support your claims - did you actually read it?
I don't see a Jerusalem Post link. If it's behind that LGF(!) link, then it's a dead link to a 404 page.
FrontPage is a joke, and completely unreliable - as shown by the links I've provided: Associated Press, the IDF press officer, The Guardian, The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs, first person witnesses.
So in other words, the ISM is x and y because the ISM themselves claim so.
Forgive me for not finding this convincing.
Given that you seemingly have the capacity to notice the ISM press release header on that page, it's rather strange that you failed to notice the clear attributation of the following to the Associated Press:
Sat Mar 29, 1:21 PM ET
JERUSALEM - The Israeli army on Saturday withdrew its claim that a gun was found during a search of a West Bank office of the International Solidarity Movement, a pro-Palestinian group.
Israeli troops raided the office in the West Bank town of Jenin on Thursday and seized a wanted member of the militant Islamic Jihad group.
Originally, the army reported that a pistol was found in the office during the search. On Saturday, the army withdrew the allegation, saying only a weapon was found in the building, which also has apartments and the offices of two other international organizations.
"The information originally released was wrong," an army spokeswoman said. It was unclear where exactly the gun was found.
The army alleged that the Islamic Jihad member, accused of planning several attacks against Israelis, was being sheltered by the International Solidarity Movement.
The group, however, said there were clashes outside their office on Thursday when the man appeared in the stairway. A volunteer invited him into the office because he looked hurt, the group said.
"He looked terrified, was soaking wet and appeared to be in pain. Concerned about his welfare ... he was brought into the apartment," a statement from the group said. "He was given a change of clothes, a hot drink and a blanket."
The group said the man spoke Arabic and none of the members in the office could communicate with him. Shortly after he entered, Israeli troops arrested him.
He is still being held and has not yet been charged.
Members of the International Solidarity Movement often act as human shields, placing themselves in between Israeli troops and Palestinians.
An American member of the group was killed on March 16 while trying to stop an Israeli military bulldozer in the Gaza Strip (news - web sites). She fell in front of the machine, which ran over her and then backed up, witnesses said.
Israeli officials are still investigating the bulldozer incident that killed 23-year-old Rachel Corrie, a student at The Evergreen State College in Olympia, Washington.
most strange, that oversight.
banned poster | 29.06.05 - 10:28 am | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"On the first one, I have to say, you've surpassed yourself! Where should one go for unbiased and independent evaluations of the ISM? If you'll notice the header on the story at Scoop (http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0304/ S00008.htm_), it says "Press Release: International Solidarity Movement". So in other words, the ISM is x and y because the ISM themselves claim so.
Forgive me for not finding this convincing."
Nice one Peter.
Richard Waghorne | Homepage | 29.06.05 - 3:08 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Forgive me for not finding this convincing."
Nice one Peter.
Once agsin, since you share Peter's capacity for selective cognition:
It's rather strange that you failed to notice the clear attributation of the following to the Associated Press:
Sat Mar 29, 1:21 PM ET
JERUSALEM - The Israeli army on Saturday withdrew its claim that a gun was found during a search of a West Bank office of the International Solidarity Movement, a pro-Palestinian group.
Israeli troops raided the office in the West Bank town of Jenin on Thursday and seized a wanted member of the militant Islamic Jihad group.
Originally, the army reported that a pistol was found in the office during the search. On Saturday, the army withdrew the allegation, saying only a weapon was found in the building, which also has apartments and the offices of two other international organizations.
"The information originally released was wrong," an army spokeswoman said. It was unclear where exactly the gun was found.
The army alleged that the Islamic Jihad member, accused of planning several attacks against Israelis, was being sheltered by the International Solidarity Movement.
The group, however, said there were clashes outside their office on Thursday when the man appeared in the stairway. A volunteer invited him into the office because he looked hurt, the group said.
"He looked terrified, was soaking wet and appeared to be in pain. Concerned about his welfare ... he was brought into the apartment," a statement from the group said. "He was given a change of clothes, a hot drink and a blanket."
The group said the man spoke Arabic and none of the members in the office could communicate with him. Shortly after he entered, Israeli troops arrested him.
He is still being held and has not yet been charged.
Members of the International Solidarity Movement often act as human shields, placing themselves in between Israeli troops and Palestinians.
An American member of the group was killed on March 16 while trying to stop an Israeli military bulldozer in the Gaza Strip (news - web sites). She fell in front of the machine, which ran over her and then backed up, witnesses said.
Israeli officials are still investigating the bulldozer incident that killed 23-year-old Rachel Corrie, a student at The Evergreen State College in Olympia, Washington.
That's the AP Dickie, not the ISM.
banned poster | 30.06.05 - 12:11 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow, I thought I had left a comment here last night. Did ye remove it?
If so, then to me it would seem there more then a hint of the communist(not the marxist type) that rand hated.
You sure this is a libertarian outlet?
T-bone | 30.06.05 - 1:57 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Apologies if so; that's almost certainly my doing.
If you've a contribution to make, then feel free to join the conversation, although please take heed of the a href="http://www.freedominst.org/2005/04/ commenting-guidelines.html>Commenting Guidelines please. We're trying to encourage a more elevated form of debate than one would find on Indymedia and dissenting posters are as welcome as anyone else.
There are, I think it's safe to say, no communists in the FI. There are some among us who might describe themselves as libertarians, although I wouldn't be among and we don't label the FI that way.
Peter Nolan | Homepage | 30.06.05 - 2:52 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank's I will be viewing this site with some intrest.
Tho I do find it dis-heartening that their is a tendency to take view's on subjects that align with other mainstream conservative veiwpoints as opposed to a objectivist point of view.
I dont see the point of arguing anti or pro isreali/palestinian when both clearly have little reguard for human morality or law.
I might just enjoy being the dissenter on this site. ;)
T-bone | 30.06.05 - 9:23 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

It'd be great to have a properly libertarian voice on the site. You'll find plenty to disagree with I'm afraid, but stuff to like too. We're easily the most libertarian group in Ireland, though few of us would embrace the label, and it's a relative term, starting from a pretty low base.
Good to have you around.
Richard Waghorne | Homepage | 30.06.05 - 9:44 pm | #

by eeekkkkkddd Fri Jul 01, 2005 14:43

"Tell you what Peter, why don't you chase down the relevant links? "
Lol!
That's a good one. Produce assertions, and then when challenged, reply that the other guy should prove they don't exist, or track them down, or whatever.
Find your own links or don't be surprised when nobody pays any attention.
Richard Waghorne | Homepage | 27.06.05 - 8:12 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

'Banned Poster': "No tunnels were found anywhere near where Corrie was killed. In fact the IDF never claimed to be looking for tunnels there. "
SeattlePI: ' "The bulldozer was there as part of an effort to prevent terror-related activities," said Amir Segev-Sayag, a media officer for the Israeli Consulate in San Francisco. In this case, the bulldozer was attempting to clear away shrubbery to expose these tunnels, he said, and not trying to raze a home.'
Never claimed, eh?
Richard Waghorne | Homepage | 27.06.05 - 8:19 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Tell you what Peter, why don't you chase down the relevant links?
Given that you couldn't provide any evidence to support FrontPage's claims..."
Doh! I have to fact-check YOU and provide sources for YOUR stories?
Let me introduce you to your first word in Hebrew - chutzpah.
Peter Nolan | Homepage | 27.06.05 - 8:27 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Never claimed, eh?
No they didn't actually. The Israeli consulate in the US made some erroneous statements, without checking, which the IDF press office never supported.
A few days after leaving Rafah I head to Jerusalem to get the Israeli government view. Captain Jacob Dallal of the Israeli army sits down with me in the large West Jerusalem building that houses the government press office--a building that, unlike the buildings in Rafah, is fronted with large glass windows, none of them covered up or shattered. There has been a suicide bombing in Netanya on this day, injuring three dozen people, but Captain Dallal does not mention it. Such attacks are now part of the routine fabric of life here.
Captain Dallal is a slight, handsome man who wears a dark olive-green uniform and speaks with the brusque certainty for which Israelis are famous. He has clearly had the Rachel Corrie conversation a thousand times already, and sometimes slouches and looks off into the distance as we talk.
To begin with, he says, Dr. Samir's house was never under threat of demolition. Although the spot where Rachel was killed is extremely close to Dr. Samir's home, and although bulldozer tracks from that day seem to be headed in the direction of Dr. Samir's back wall, Captain Dallal says, "This was not an operation to demolish houses."
On the day that Rachel Corrie died, the army was using its giant American-made armored bulldozers to search for explosives that might have been planted in the buffer zone by Palestinians, according to Captain Dallal. It was not demolishing homes.
http://www.thestranger.com/2003-...03/ feature.html
banned poster | 27.06.05 - 8:46 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Find your own links or don't be surprised when nobody pays any attention.
Richard, I'm not surprised at your capacity to ignore facts that don't appeal to you, but it's a widely understood notion that if you make a claim (as Peter has done) you back it up with some evidence. The onus is on you, if you make the claim.
So. You find the evidence of:
1. The crime that Shadi Sukiya has been charged with.
2. The allegation by the IDF of any attempt to block their entry to the ISM offices.
3. The current IDF claim of an arms cache find in ISM offices.
4. The link between Asif Mohammad Hanif and Omar Khan Sharif and the ISM and/or the Alternative Tourism Group.
5. Any evidence of a day long meeting between Asif Mohammad Hanif and Omar Khan Sharif and the ISM.
6. Anything that would substantiate the relationship between Asif Mohammad Hanif or Omar Khan Sharif and Rachel Corrie as 'comrades'.
[deleted - abuse]
Edited By Siteowner
banned poster | 27.06.05 - 8:54 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Excellent, bp, an extended quote arguing that the IDF weren't attempting to demolish houses. And what did the Israeli rep quoted above say?
"not trying to raze a home"
Right. So we're agreed so far. Except there's a problem. He also said:
""The bulldozer was there as part of an effort to prevent terror-related activities,"
Which the IDF has confirmed, and:
"the bulldozer was attempting to clear away shrubbery to expose... tunnels"
Nothing in your post contradicts that. Perhaps when looking up your references I should look up some rebuttal for you too.
Richard Waghorne | Homepage | 27.06.05 - 9:01 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

y'all hav an awful habit at the freedom fries institute of not inking to sources. Now i see why.
drunk as a rule | 27.06.05 - 9:04 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

The only person making unsupported claims here is you, BP.
I think your bluff is called. A long night on google awaits you.
Peter Nolan | Homepage | 27.06.05 - 9:05 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"y'all hav an awful habit at the freedom fries institute of not inking to sources. Now i see why."
Actually, we almost invariably do. A week ago there was a criticism in the comments for having too many links, as they weren't are excerpted in the posts. I guess you can't please all the people all the time.
Richard Waghorne | Homepage | 27.06.05 - 9:15 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The only person making unsupported claims here is you, BP.
I think your bluff is called. A long night on google awaits you."
Quite. And don't think you'll be allowed peddle your usual 'can you definitely prove X' line without clearing up the mess you made today first.
Richard Waghorne | Homepage | 27.06.05 - 9:16 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"y'all hav an awful habit at the freedom fries institute of not inking to sources. Now i see why."
Eh? My two comments on the ISM each have a link, one to Front Page, the other to the Daily Telegraph. Fool!
Peter Nolan | Homepage | 28.06.05 - 12:01 am | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"As I've pointed out before:
[...]
[deleted -abuse], and resorting to Frontpage (!) standard smear material highlights your desperation to find anything that might back up your nonsense."
BP, I'm highly impressed by your apparent excellent knowledge of the conflict, encompassing the languages, organisations and personalities on both sides and knack of witnessing first-hand many of the most controversial incidents. Or am I wrong and are you just making things up as you go along. Richard and I have given our sources - put up yours or expose yourself for the ignorant blusterer you are.
Peter Nolan | Homepage | 28.06.05 - 12:07 am | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

On past form, the response from BP will be another comment about the posting guidelines.
Peter Nolan | Homepage | 28.06.05 - 12:08 am | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

He's been trying to post the sources all evening, but we censor him each time....
Richard Waghorne | Homepage | 28.06.05 - 12:15 am | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Richard, you claim that the IDF stated that:
"the bulldozer was attempting to clear away shrubbery to expose... tunnels"
and yet you produce no such statement by the IDF. In fact the statement from the IDF is quite different:
On the day that Rachel Corrie died, the army was using its giant American-made armored bulldozers to search for explosives that might have been planted in the buffer zone by Palestinians, according to Captain Dallal.
An Israeli army investigation into the death of Rachel Corrie, an American peace activist, has concluded that its forces were not to blame for her death.
....
The report also says that the army was patrolling no man's land by the border zone, searching for explosives. But according to Mr Smith, Corrie believed that they intended to demolish the house where she had been staying.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/ israel...,936327,00.html
I'm not sure how you pretend that the IDF clearing ground adjacent to the border wall (and watchtowers) of scrub that might hide explosives equates to 'exposing tunnels'. In fact no-one from any part of the Israeli government bar Mr. Segev-Sayag, out of the loop in San Francisco, made any reference to tunnels, because it's a nonsense in that location.
banned poster | 28.06.05 - 2:04 am | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"much as i would be critical of indymedia it represents a uncensored news source..."
Hensons, I think that it's mistake to interpret the lack of a profit motive or a formal organisatinal structure for authenticity or integrity.
Peter Nolan | Homepage | 28.06.05 - 7:56 am | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

don't think you'll be allowed peddle your usual 'can you definitely prove X' line without clearing up the mess you made today first.
Avoid and evade eh Dick?
You know that FrontPage is full of it, and you can't substantiate those claims. Grow a backbone and admit when you get it wrong (for a change).
banned poster | 28.06.05 - 11:30 am | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

'Peter Nolan' wrote: "Or am I wrong and are you just making things up as you go along? Richard and I have given our sources - put up yours or expose yourself for the ignorant blusterer you are."
'banned poster' wrote: "You know that FrontPage is full of it, and you can't substantiate those claims."
I'll take that as a 'yes'.
Peter Nolan | Homepage | 28.06.05 - 11:49 am | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Take it whatever way you wish Peter. Everyone else will note that you didn't try and substantiate your claims whatsoever.
IDF withdraw 'ISM gun' find claim:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/W...0304/ S00008.htm
ISM and it's 'links' to Asif Mohammad Hanif and Omar Khan Sharif:
ISM has been accused of 'forging links with' the suicide bombers that attacked the Mike's Place bar in Israel on April 30, 2003, killing three people. A suicide bombing is a bomb attack on people or property, committed by a person who knows the explosion will cause his or her own death (see suicide, suicide weapons). ... Mikes Place is the shared name of two bars in Israel that are popular with expats, and before the rise of the second intifada, frequented by people of all religions and ethnicities, as well. ... April 30 is the 120th day of the year in the Gregorian calendar (121st in leap years), with 245 days remaining, as the last day in April. ... 2003 is a common year starting on Wednesday of the Gregorian calendar. ...
There appear to be two primary sources behind this accusation. The first is an article that appeared in a May 2, 2003 article in the left wing British newspaper The Guardian under the heading "Bombers posed as peace activists" [7] (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/ 0,2763,947846,00.html). In a January 17, 2004 article in CNN's world edition,[8] (http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/05/05/ suicide.bombers/index.html) which included parts of an interview with ISM volunteer Raphael Cohen, Cohen stated that the two bombers were among a group of about 15 people who visited an International Solidarity Movement apartment in Rafah, Gaza, on April 25, 2003. According to Cohen, after spending about 15 minutes in the apartment with the bombers, he, his colleagues and the 15 visitors (including the bombers), went to the site where Rachel Corrie was killed and placed a flower there. Following this, Cohen stated, the people "that visited us [then] went their own way." May 2 is the 122nd day of the year in the Gregorian calendar (123rd in leap years). ... 2003 is a common year starting on Wednesday of the Gregorian calendar. ... In politics, left-wing, political left, leftism, or simply the left, are terms that refer (with no particular precision) to the segment of the political spectrum typically associated with any of several strains of socialism, social democracy, or liberalism (especially but not exclusively in the American sense of the word... The Guardian is a British newspaper owned by the Guardian Media Group. ... January 17 is the 17th day of the year in the Gregorian Calendar. ... 2004 is a leap year starting on Thursday of the Gregorian calendar. ... CNN or Cable News Network is a cable television network that was founded in 1980 by Ted Turner & Reese Schonfeld [1] [2] (although he currently is not recognized in CNNs official history). ... Rafah (Arabic: ??? Hebrew: ????) is a town in
banned poster | 28.06.05 - 1:04 pm | #

by eeekkkkrrrr Fri Jul 01, 2005 14:39

I'd almost qualify as a 'mercenary' from my desk in DC
I doubt your internship at Cato would qualify in the mercenary salary bracket. $700 a month doesn't go far.
banned poster | 27.06.05 - 5:18 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

and they're all me at present. On another thread instead of justifying deletions you claim that the word I used in my complaint - articulacy - does not exist. It does in the British dictionary Richard.
This brings to mind a limerick:
You're expressive, a well-spoken guy.
If to use it you're skittish,
Then note the word's British.
(Americans, bid it goodbye.)
So who's articulate?
drunk as a rule | 27.06.05 - 5:18 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

by 'and they're all me' I meant the 1% deletions today.
drunk as a rule | 27.06.05 - 5:20 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

And richard you also could not be defined as a mercenary in your US office because (correct me if i'm wrong) there is no war presently taking place on the US mainland
drunk as a rule | 27.06.05 - 5:21 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ye Gods.
First, no, it's not a word. You've linked to where some randomer submitted it to an OED project on new words about three months back. Look it up in a dictionary, or at dictionary.com, at it's not there. At the rate Oxford are debasing their dictionary it may make it in a year or two, but right now, it's status remains 'submitted by randomer'.
Second, no posts are ever deleted because they are poorly expressed. Posts can be deleted if utterly incoherent, though I don't know of that ever happening.
Third, your post was deleted because it was without content other than ad hominen argumentation. Peter added, on deleting it, that it was inarticulate in addition to being trolling, but it was the fact that it was trolling which was why it was removed.
Not complicated.
Richard Waghorne | Homepage | 27.06.05 - 5:24 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rogets Thesaurus on Articulacy.
You better give them a ring Richard. You seem to know better than me/them.
drunk as a rule | 27.06.05 - 5:27 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Articulacy" is in the MS thesaurus, which, I presume, is why I got a clean spell-check while writing the posting.
Peter Nolan | Homepage | 27.06.05 - 5:50 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

So much the better. Happy to stand corrected.
Richard Waghorne | Homepage | 27.06.05 - 5:51 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

sorry about the the full flowering of unhinged paranoia here richard but i had my suspicions and I like being a little unhinged in my writing. (Is it illegal?)
I will in the interests of truth and decency issue a correction. Above comment was me checking if I was banned or haloscan was shuddering.
drunk as a rule | 27.06.05 - 5:52 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Their problem, not mine.
Richard Waghorne | Homepage | 27.06.05 - 5:55 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

what problem is whose problem - haloscan or RT? I'm off now but want to leave comment I lost when haloscan aborted:
I respectfully submit to the assembled masses of right wing and left wing hacks here present that the Blog post on Indymedia by any objective judgement is 'ad hominen argumentation' by any standard of definition of such a term.
I rest my case M'lud
back to the library with me for a few shots of protestant whiskey.
drunk as a rule | 27.06.05 - 5:58 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news.../ ixnewstop.html
A Western pro-Palestinian activist said the two later took part in a protest march in Rafah to commemorate Rachel Corrie, an American "human shield" killed by an Israeli bulldozer last March.
"As soon as I heard the names, my heart sank," he said. "I did not need to see the picture, but when the picture came, they are there."
Peter Nolan | Homepage | 27.06.05 - 6:01 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh and I can't resist this little factcheck: I don't see the word trolling here present.
"[Deleted - abusive and incoherent]
Edited By Siteowner
drunk as a rule" (From thread on 1500 in IRA - McDowell)
Richard Above: "Peter added, on deleting it, that it was inarticulate in addition to being trolling, but it was the fact that it was trolling which was why it was removed."
mmmmmm
drunk as a rule | 27.06.05 - 6:01 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sources other than FrontPage please??? They are a Zionist / neo-con bunch and as such in no way can they be construed as an objective source. Their attitude to facts has blatant similarities to the FI who I suspect will begin the same demonisation of left wing staff in irish universities if they think they can
"Such means include the hiding of terrorists like Shadi Sukiya, who was arrested in an ISM office in the West Bank. An arms cache was also found in an ISM office. Two suicide bombers gained entry for their murderous agendas under the auspices of the ISM. These Pakistani Muslims from Great Britain entered Israel through Jordan as clients of the Alternative Tourism Group, an operation set up by Andoni to aid ISM volunteers coming to Israel. They then met with the ISM at their offices for an entire day in Gaza before proceeding on to Tel Aviv where they bombed a popular beach bar, Mike’s Place, killing three people."
drunk as a rule | 27.06.05 - 6:07 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Sources other than FrontPage please???"
What's wrong with the Torygraph? I could always just go to indymedia.ie, write the story myself out of thin air under a pseudonym and then link to it.
"They are a Zionist / neo-con bunch..."
Doubleplusungood!
"Their attitude to facts..."
You might address their attitude to the facts under discussion and not the merits or otherwise of Norman Finkelstein.
Happily for Professor Plum, the 2004 election wasn't actually postponed. I'm also surprised to find myself stepping up to defend Michael Moore from his allegations that he's a fascist.
Peter Nolan | Homepage | 27.06.05 - 6:27 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

We're through the looking glass here.
Richard Waghorne | Homepage | 27.06.05 - 6:29 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

so front page politics are not neo-con and zionist? Is that what you are bleating - because it has no relation to reality.
was the site comments turned off cos you needed to urinate?
i urinated a couple of times myself after those whisskiews
[This is the kind of comment I'm inclinced to delete, but I'll leave it up until tomorrow to show WHY you get deleted.
As well as not adding to the debate, you're being crude and childish. PN]
Edited By Siteowner
Edited By Siteowner
drunk as a rule | 27.06.05 - 6:30 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

(1) Frontpage's claims should be assessed on their merits, not dismissed because they're "neo-con" or whatever. That was Peter's point, as was more than clear.
(2) We have no control over the comments feature beyond the decision to have one in the first place. Haloscan frequently goes on the blink, as anyone who's tried to use the thing for much time will tell you.
Asking why the comments were momentarily unavailable might have been a better way to put your query, incidentally.
Richard Waghorne | Homepage | 27.06.05 - 6:35 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"As I've pointed out before..."
I'm surprised you come back for more. You've asserted - do you have any links for these claims you're making? They seem to be absent both here and in your comments on the previous posting.
Peter Nolan | Homepage | 27.06.05 - 7:52 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

You have to give her the benefits of the doubt at several turns to get to that conclusion.
At a minimum, she was actively interposing herself in the way of IDF attempts to dismantle terrorist infrastructure. A free choice, but a poor one, and I shed no tears for her.
Frankly, I think the most charitable case that can be made is that she was a knowing, indirect accomplice to terrorism. And that's the charitable conclusion. The tunnels being demolished, and houses over the entrances, were being used to smuggle materials for attacks on Israelis, which she would have been fully aware of unless she was a complete moron.
http://www.omjp.org/ Feb1503GazaR...GazaReuters.jpg
And you're factually incorrect. The IDF have arrested terrorists on ISM property, one within weeks of Corrie's death:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/....php? entry=6011
Case closed? Not quite. Leave to investigate? Most certainly.
Richard Waghorne | Homepage | 27.06.05 - 7:55 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tell you what Peter, why don't you chase down the relevant links?
Given that you couldn't provide any evidence to support FrontPage's claims, you're in no position to complain. Your the one making the charge after all.
banned poster | 27.06.05 - 7:58 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Richard: No tunnels were found anywhere near where Corrie was killed. In fact the IDF never claimed to be looking for tunnels there. They were clearing scrub from the open buffer zone beside the border.
And again: Shadi Sukiya has never actually been charged with any crime let alone 'terrorism'.
banned poster | 27.06.05 - 8:01 pm | #

by bbbeeeeepppp Fri Jul 01, 2005 14:38

***This has already been cut to shreds****

Oh yeah 'Paranoia': Indymedia was paranoid back when it was the only Irish outlet reporting that shannon airport was suddenly being used to transfer a majority of us troops to Iraq: Michael Mc Dowell described contributors as 'mad'.
The truth will out.
[Trolling - partly deleted]
Edited By Siteowner
drunk as a rule | 27.06.05 - 2:56 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

much as i would be critical of indymedia it represents a uncensored news source and as such should be welcomed. the site you link to is rather poor and actually is the mirror of what it hates.
hensons | 27.06.05 - 3:04 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"They were banned from working in Iraq. Yet, they went and like many other workers took up legal arms to guard Westerners. They were mercenaries. And now they are dead."
Source link please Peter: When you remove the context entirely from something you can prove anything.
I vaguely remember this incident but cannot find the thread.
drunk as a rule | 27.06.05 - 3:25 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can't imagine any 'context' that would excuse those four sentences.
Richard Waghorne | Homepage | 27.06.05 - 3:32 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

i'm not going to excuse them: I'm going to fact check them.
Facts I want to check:
1. They were banned from working in Iraq (I believe by their own government)
2. They went anyway and took up arms to guard westerners
3. They were mercenaries
4. They are dead
All of the above are statements of fact. I want to fact check them. I want to see if the FI thinks certain 'facts' are by their nature 'inexcusable'.
Are there any facts that you would deem 'illegal' or 'beyond the pale' if they could be shown to be objectively true Richard?
Sounds like you were learning goodo from the 'Preznit' on your trip.
drunk as a rule | 27.06.05 - 3:40 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

slagging a particular party (PDs) and quoting the minister for justice on Indymedia (the subject of this piece) is trolling now?
Wow
I quoted Michael McDowells charachterisation of indymedia contributers as 'mad' at time of buildup to war to point out the very close match of that talking point to this blog article talking point.
Is this a little over-sensitive. I will keep my humour to myself around here from now on. (that'd be the second deletion - first was a quotation from Father jack) It must be illegal.
drunk as a rule | 27.06.05 - 3:53 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

As the phantom deleter in question, I'd advise you that random personal abuse, especially when in Borat-style English, doesn't add much to anyone's reading experience.
However, more substantial comments such as your later ones are welcome.
Peter Nolan | Homepage | 27.06.05 - 4:03 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well done Peter on finding a like-minded soul with a bee in their bonnet about indymedia.
A pity s/he seems to combine a jolly mixture of paranoia and obsessiveness with caricature. Not much meat on those bones I'm afraid.
banned poster | 27.06.05 - 4:09 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

fr jack style english I think you mean. Now where is the address for the thread you quoted re Nepalese workers?
drunk as a rule | 27.06.05 - 4:11 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Doing your homework for ya Peter...
Seaching Indymedia.ie "They were banned from working"
results in: Sorry, but no stories match your query!
Googling is sometimes better: "They were banned from working" indymedia
You see only one result.
Google has pretty much sucked up all of Indymedia.ie and also shows up in Google News, as well.
I'm not saying that post didn't happen, or isn't on Indymedia.ie somewhere - but I doubt it.
I suspect 'Chumps for Chomsky' has made a chump out of you.
redjade | Homepage | 27.06.05 - 4:20 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

and it wasn't personal abuse - the only entities I indulged in a little light hearted (pseudo-drunken) banter about were
1. FI
2. PD's
No persons.
Or am I lying because I am exhibiting 'the full flowering of unhinged paranoia'?
drunk as a rule | 27.06.05 - 4:23 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now Peter a pattern of using linked (or in this case unlinked) material in a dubious manner is emerging. (For the rigidly bored or genuinely curious see recent racism blog post on here and comments) What have you got to say in your defense?
drunk as a rule | 27.06.05 - 4:25 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

whats wrong with borat. he loves freedom after all.
hensons | 27.06.05 - 4:27 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

On behalf of the famous five: We resent being slagged by 'strange groupuscules which seem to exist nowhere else' like the FI.
Julian, dick and anne george a | 27.06.05 - 4:28 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

You guys aren't the best with search facilities, are you?
I got it in less than half a minute:
http://www.indymedia.ie/ newswire...rch_comments=on
Apologies are in order. Not that I expect it, but hey, surprise me.
Richard Waghorne | Homepage | 27.06.05 - 4:32 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Apologies for that Richard. Now which facts in that do you want to dispute?
drunk as a rule | 27.06.05 - 4:35 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

see the IRA numbers thread. I am progressively being ASBOed. Sometimes a notice is left - sometimes not. They keep calling me slagging and distributing info on MOJ and PDs abusive.
Is it abusive to slag a political party? Obviously not as there is plenty of slagging of other political parties on here.
drunk as a rule | 27.06.05 - 4:49 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Where your comments make no attempt at a substantive point and go for personal abuse instead, as has been the case with quite a number of your contributions, those comments will be edited or removed. The percentage of comments edited on the site is in the region of 1%. Most people, many critical, find it perfectly possible to engage without causing any difficulties.
Do me a favour and don't push the rules today: I've about a hundred things to do and I'm just going to zap comments that are clearly over the line. The guidelines are linked above if common sense is a insufficient guide for you.
Richard Waghorne | Homepage | 27.06.05 - 4:56 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the link Richard,
Some quick web research...
1. They were banned from working in Iraq (I believe by their own government) - confirmed, Nepal Govt ban strengthened after killings.
2. They went anyway and took up arms to guard westerners - semi-confirmed, may have been 12 of the 17,000
3. They were mercenaries - see above and 'helping U.S. forces'
4. They are dead - confirmed, obviously
redjade | Homepage | 27.06.05 - 5:01 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Look, the facts aren't in dispute, though I've always been under the impression that 'mercenaries' fight. Be the definition applied here I'd almost qualify as a 'mercenary' from my desk in DC.
The point, as Peter rightly highlighted, is that putting "executed" in inverted commas, and suggesting that their brutal murder is somehow qualified because of the circumstances of their presence in the country is despicable and indefensible.
The post was, incidentally, also subtitled 'the tragic legacy of bush' though perhaps assigning responsibility to the twelve beheadings to those who committed the act would be correct.
Richard Waghorne | Homepage | 27.06.05 - 5:06 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

My comments are being deleted wholesale. They as with the comment left above are being deleted as Personal abuse and bizzarely ;'inarticulate'.
I slagged no-one personally. I made an accusation about one FI writer which I'll happily stand up if requested.
I have routinely indulged in some light banter about PDs/MOJ/ and FI.
None of these are individuals so how can I be personally abusing them?
You seem to have no cumpunction about slagging off a voluntary organisation in a dubious way yourselves.
If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.
And also I will not limit my posting because you have a busy afternoon ahead.
drunk as a rule | 27.06.05 - 5:07 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nobody is asking you to limit your posts - we take pride in having a busy comments section - you are, however, required to conform to the guidelines.
This is not a problem for the vast majority of people who use the comments here, who have no difficulty critiquing FI output with varying degrees of cogency without making life complicated for people. Our editing rate is around 1% of comments.
Richard Waghorne | Homepage | 27.06.05 - 5:11 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

sheesh! If this blog post included actual writing instead of reposting from a site that reported something without links - all would have been a little easier!
'executed' and you're offended that someone might attribute the deaths of 12 Nepalese to the fact that Bush invaded Iraq.
Richard, you should give me a password to this blog, because I could write a better critique of Indymedia.ie that you guys!
redjade | Homepage | 27.06.05 - 5:15 pm | #

by beeeepppp Fri Jul 01, 2005 14:29

Previous FFI IMC irl Article: http://www.freedominst.org/2005/06/indymedia-ate-my-hamster.html

THIS One: http://www.freedominst.org/2005/06/independent-voice.html

***Note that first comment was immediately deleted by the FFI team when published****

Would 'independent - of reality' include claims of RTE conspiracies against the Republican Party (amongst others it seems), or claims of comradeship between ISM activists and suicide bombers, or of failed asylum seekers and gang rape?
Because I think you'll find that indymedia has no monopoly on fruit loops perspectives.?
banned poster | 01.07.05 - 1:21 pm | #
or the mention of bagels leading to accusations of anti-semitism?
eeekkkkk | 01.07.05 - 11:48 am | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

'I queried their describing Richard Delevan as a "fascist".'
Unlike F.F.I. there is no indymedia party line. Each contributor speaks as an individual or in some cases on behalf of a group.
The disclaimer at the bottom of each page reads "© 2001-2005 Independent Media Centre Ireland. Unless otherwise stated by the author, all content is free for non-commercial reuse, reprint, and rebroadcast, on the net and elsewhere. Opinions are those of the contributors and are not necessarily endorsed by Independent Media Centre Ireland."
eeekkkkk | 01.07.05 - 11:50 am | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

oh yeah and we don't disappear comments into the memory hole to make shaky arguments look good.
All hidden material is available at this publically archived list: http://lists.indymedia.org/piper...eland-newswire/
eeekkkkk | 01.07.05 - 11:52 am | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

do also enlighten us about this 'recent experience' peter
eeekkkkk | 01.07.05 - 12:01 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I didn't mention the anti-semitic bagels thing because, to be fair, that particular piece of lunacy wasn't of their own making. They just applauded the author as someone they could recommend.
banned poster | 01.07.05 - 12:08 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Unlike F.I. there is no indymedia party line. Each contributor speaks as an individual or in some cases on behalf of a group."
But, [deleted personal name] the problem with this is that Indymedia has become the uncontrolled id of the Irish internet and this comment struck me as an example where the organisation is not taking enough responsibility for accuracy. Your controls are too loose and I think the platform has been destroyed by incivility and the sheer volume of nonsense included.
I don't want the FI to showcase this type of language and abuse.
Edited By Siteowner
Peter Nolan | Homepage | 01.07.05 - 12:31 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

well peter thanks for the 'outing' - shows your Freedom Institute values at their most basic - no respect for a person's privacy and absolute right to write anonymously or pseudonymously.
[Your email address is visible to anyone who opens the comments, even when not logged in. If you object, I'll happily take it out - PN]
So note this other FI readers. It is important and about values. If peter Nolan does not like your ideas he may out your real world identity using your e-mail address supplied in good faith.
I'll dig up some more lies based on anonymous postings you have strewn about in last while after I have my breakfast.
Meanwhile why don't you provide the readers of this upcoming gladiatorial contest with a link to the original source for this:
"But, E*****, the problem with this is that Indymedia has become the uncontrolled id of the Irish internet and this comment struck me as an example where the organisation is not taking enough responsibility for accuracy."
Edited By Siteowner
eeekkkkk | 01.07.05 - 12:40 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

sorry meant this "
'I queried their describing Richard Delevan as a "fascist".'
I am a little hopping mad and prone to mistakes
eeekkkkk | 01.07.05 - 12:42 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"oh yeah and we don't disappear comments into the memory hole to make shaky arguments look good."
We'll probably get our technology for this fixed before the Indymedia lists are searchable.
The guidelines are pretty clear: There's no shortage of crap on the net, so we don't need BP, drunk, or anyone else to add to the surplus here.
If you have a point to make, you'll be free to make it. Anyone who wants to abuse us as fascists and racists or showcase an ability to understand rhetorical logic and the use of empirical evidence is welcome to do so somewhere else.
Peter Nolan | Homepage | 01.07.05 - 12:42 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Meanwhile why don't you provide the readers of this upcoming gladiatorial contest with a link to the original source for this"
The links are now in the original post.
Peter Nolan | Homepage | 01.07.05 - 12:50 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Your email address is visible to anyone who opens the comments, even when not logged in. If you object, I'll happily take it out - PN]
Not True Peter. All there is a hash symbol which provides direct web address for comment. I am obviously not nor have any wish to be logged in.
Google btw does a fine search of the indymedia ireland newswire mailing list. Why would we bother duplicating this?
Leave my name up - I like it - and readers also note that 'eamonn' is NOT included in my mail address
eeekkkkk | 01.07.05 - 12:52 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Google btw does a fine search of the indymedia ireland newswire mailing list."
I had this discussion with redjade days ago - the domain isn't searchable with google using any of the commands I tried.
Peter Nolan | Homepage | 01.07.05 - 12:53 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

the memory hole is very large around here so please note gentle readers that I am backing up this page to my HD every time Ieave a comment. Jaysus even the order of comments has a tendency to shift dramatically here.
Now peter - let's argue about the front page of indymedia today using your terms of debate.
Show me where "I think the platform has been destroyed by incivility and the sheer volume of nonsense included. "
eeekkkkk | 01.07.05 - 12:57 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Your email address is visible to anyone who opens the comments, even when not logged in. If you object, I'll happily take it out - PN]"
"Not True Peter. All there is a hash symbol which provides direct web address for comment. I am obviously not nor have any wish to be logged in."
You're right. All the other haloscan-equipped blogs seem to have this I recall. I'll change it sometime.
Peter Nolan | Homepage | 01.07.05 - 12:57 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

now tell me I'm right that you are absolutely wrong on your statement elsewhere on this blog that indymedia ireland logs IP addresses.
Anonymous web postings are not evidence btw. We have a firm and ongoing policy of not logging any ip addresses of readers or posters. The one exception is when the site is under infrastructural attack.
eeekkkkk | 01.07.05 - 1:00 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

As I commented yesterday, extracting from your own mailing lists:
"Indymedia does not retain IP addresses of posters, except in specific, rare cases when we are required to identify addresses of specific abusers to defend the site from attack."
http://lists.indymedia.org/piper...ay/0530- mi.html
It was in response to YOUR comment.
Peter Nolan | Homepage | 01.07.05 - 1:05 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Peter, your selective cognition abilities are once again getting the better of you.
The one exception is when the site is under infrastructural attack.
What site doesn't utilise IP checking to respond to DOS attacks etc?
banned poster | 01.07.05 - 1:08 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

where peter? as far as I can remember (and admittedly it is hard to keep up with the memory hole) I posted it on two threads - one the one below this and one where you made the original accusation. I put it on the one below this because you strangely only enabled comments on THIS thread this am when chalenged about the fact that they were switched OFF. Both were deleted shortly after I posted. Off Topic was the excuse on the vulcan thread.
So show me the link to your retraction of a brazen shitstirring lie peter.
eeekkkkk | 01.07.05 - 1:09 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

The statement is clear - IP addresses aren't "retained" presumably not stored over the longer-term.
Peter Nolan | Homepage | 01.07.05 - 1:09 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

'Presumably'?
banned poster | 01.07.05 - 1:10 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

ip logging to be absolutely clear is switched off completely for the imc ireland site. To log anything in event of infrastructural attack we have to go swithch it on. Is that clear enough?
eeekkkkk | 01.07.05 - 1:11 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

please put banned posters comment : http://www.haloscan.com/comments...43237246/ #42679
back where it was originally - at the top of this thread. All moving it has achieved is making my initial comment abou bagels seem silly. Was that the intention?
;-)
eeekkkkk | 01.07.05 - 1:12 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

You're out of your depth here Peter.
All sites have a record of IP's of users. You can't avoid having them.
Indymedia state that they don't retain those records, except in the instance of dealing with DOS attacks etc. This is the standard practise for every site, and host, teh world over.
banned poster | 01.07.05 - 1:14 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

test new template indeed - your present intellectual template is on a hiding to nothing.
eeekkkkk | 01.07.05 - 1:14 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"please put banned posters comment : http://www.haloscan.com/comments...nts...43237246/ #42679"
No, it's abusive. We're not happy to publish comments accusing us of being racists.
"back where it was originally - at the top of this thread. All moving it has achieved is making my initial comment abou bagels seem silly. Was that the intention?""
No, but I can delete it if you wish.
Peter Nolan | Homepage | 01.07.05 - 1:16 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

All moving it has achieved is making my initial comment abou bagels seem silly. Was that the intention?
Peter's just trying to suppress the obvious irony of his position, given the history of claims emenating from this blog.
He erases it, I repost it.
Nothing to do with making you look silly. Just simple embarrasment.
banned poster | 01.07.05 - 1:16 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

all SERVERS have a record of ip addresses - siteowners have a choice - we cannot compel our service provider to not log addresses - we can and do choose not to record them ourselves
eeekkkkk | 01.07.05 - 1:17 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"He erases it, I repost it.
Nothing to do with making you look silly. Just simple embarrasment."
The very definition of trolling...
Peter Nolan | Homepage | 01.07.05 - 1:18 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

sticks and stones Peter...
The post I made stands on its own merits. You made those claims here, and you will have to live with that.
banned poster | 01.07.05 - 1:20 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

i submit your two recent indymedia articles are instances of uber-trolling
nothing worse than a troll in control
eeekkkkk | 01.07.05 - 1:21 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Would 'independent - of reality' include claims of RTE conspiracies against the Republican Party (amongst others it seems), or claims of comradeship between ISM activists and suicide bombers, or of failed asylum seekers and gang rape?
Because I think you'll find that indymedia has no monopoly on fruit loops perspectives.?
banned poster | 01.07.05 - 1:21 pm | #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

nice one bp I backed that one up to hd
eeekkkkk | 01.07.05 - 1:24 pm | #

by Right Wing Think-Thank Watcher Thu May 06, 2004 14:55

The segment below is from the site I mentioned above and includes a link to a report (Political Conservatism as Motivated Social Cognition) outlining why conservatives are the way they are.

http://www.politics.ie/modules.php?name=XForum&file=viewthread&tid=1078

"By the way is this not an attack? Phillip said“Anyone who says otherwise is either ignorant, stupid or both.” A classic comment from a victim of the neuroses of conservatism! Kinda similar to McDowells -"I know what I know".

As a sufferer of this condition Philip maybe you should read a report (Political Conservatism as Motivated Social Cognition) funded by the US government last year on the psychological reasoning behind conservatism which had many cases (eg Bush on war in Iraq) of McDowell syndrome, see sites and links below.

See below for the report
http://faculty-gsb.stanford.edu/Jost/_private/Political_Conservatism_as_Motivated_Social_Cognition.pdf

The extract below is from a Guardian article on the report
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1017505,00.html

""A study funded by the US government has concluded that conservatism can be explained psychologically as a set of neuroses rooted in "fear and aggression, dogmatism and the intolerance of ambiguity". "

"The authors also peer into the psyche of President George Bush, who turns out to be a textbook case. The telltale signs are his preference for moral certainty and frequently expressed dislike of nuance.
"This intolerance of ambiguity can lead people to cling to the familiar, to arrive at premature conclusions, and to impose simplistic cliches and stereotypes the authors argue in the Psychological Bulletin."""

by Right Wing Think-Thank Watcher Thu May 06, 2004 14:41

See the thread below for a rubbishing of the “freedom” (neo-liberal far-right) institute and its policies, which advocates such sick policies as the end of Foreign Aid and the minimum wage making even Bush look left wing!

The danger is that their arguments are so easily rubbished that they won’t be, I needn’t mention the example of the far-right neo-conservative think thanks currently holding sway in the US.

[url] http://www.politics.ie/modules.php?name=XForum&file=viewthread&tid=1078 [/url]

To read what the neo-liberal economics advocated by the freedom institute and it’s fellow travellers really means to the aid received by the third world, and the particularly shocking case below of the aid to Ethiopia see the extract below from The Best Democracy Money Can Buy by Greg Palast , below from the site,

[url] http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=78&row=1 [/url]

by Freedom Wed May 05, 2004 22:27 info at freedominst dot org http://www.freedominst.org

http://www.freedominst.org

by ? Wed May 05, 2004 20:35

They claim to be "Ireland's Centre for Social, Economic and Political Studies"!

but seem to be mainly students (sound familiar anyone?):

"John McGuirk
Freedom Institute Spokesman on the Environment
Mr. McGuirk is currently reading BESS in Trinity College Dublin. He hails from Monaghan and is a former Policy Co-ordinator of Ogra Fianna Fail. He is also active in the Historical Society in TCD. "

"Richard Waghorne
Freedom Institute Spokesman on Infrastructure
Mr. Waghorne is reading Philosophy and Politics in UCD, where he seats on the Academic Council (polling 23% on the first count). He was educated in Gonzaga, and is a keen chess player. A former member of the National Youth Orchestra, he regularly attends concerts in the National Concert Hall. He is the Auditor of the UCD Philosophical Society, and also was the co-ordinator of the Campaign to Re-Introduce Coca-Cola, which narrowly failed to overturn a ban on the product in UCD. He has been the subject of a profile in the Phoenix Magazine, and has appeared on a number of media programmes, including Liveline on RTE Radio One. "

Where can I apply to join lads???!!!

by iosaf Wed May 05, 2004 19:51

on similar issues, of assinging prison keeping duties to contracted companies:-
http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-3222,36-363327,0.html

by Observer Wed May 05, 2004 18:38

Two members of Fine Gael are supporters of the Freedom Institute:

Gerry O'Connell - Fine Gael vice-president

Sean MacKiernan, Member of FG National Executive

All though i don't think they've ever contributed to anything on it.