Commission calls for penalties for SF and PUP following breakdown in ceasefires

by John Thu Apr 22, 2004 14:48

What is happening in Monaghan is minor compared to Tyrone. In Monaghan the hospital is not being closed down. In Omagh, a much larger population centre, under DeBruin's plans the hospital would be closed completely. There is no other hospital within 20 miles of what is one of the largest towns in NI. Now that she has been sacked, it remains to be seen if the new minister proceeds with DeBruin's plan. I hope not. I notice no SF spokespersons are denying that under DeBruin hospital waiting lists in NI were 4.5 times those in the ROI. Why dont they simply put the figures for waiting lists in NI under DeBruin and in ROI under Martin in their literature and let the public judge for themselves.

by theres your record on health. Thu Apr 22, 2004 13:55

FIANNA Fail is facing revolt in Monaghan with candidates threatening not to run in the local elections unless the on-call status of the general hospital is restored.

Party members in both Monaghan town and North Monaghan constituencies are demanding that Health Minister Micheal Martin deliver "a concrete commitment" to the hospital.

The move was being seen by other parties as a cynical, stage-managed exercise in order to ensure that Fianna Fail candidates could claim credit for a Government U-turn.

The development marks the latest setback to the Government's plans for re-organisation of the health services amid mounting concerns that the Hanly report is being watered down in several key constituencies to prevent seat losses. Last night, Robbie Gallagher, a spokesman for the rebel councillors, admitted they were using the leverage of the local elections as "a wonderful opportunity" to ensure that Mr Martin acted.

"If this results in the Fianna Fail organisation in Monaghan sacrificing its relationship with the national party, then so be it," he said. "That is the road we are willing to take."

But Sinn Fein TD for Cavan-Monaghan Caoimhghin O Caolain dismissed the announcement as a "pre-election stunt" and said: "Where have they been for the past five years?"

He asked why it had taken the Fianna Fail organisation five years to "exert itself" on the issue of Monaghan General Hospital, adding: "They stood by when maternity, paediatric, accident and emergency services were axed."

Mr O Caolain questioned whether the action being taken by the local Fianna Fail organisation was merely part of a careful "choreography" with Mr Martin waiting on the sidelines to make an announcement regarding the hospital to enable local Fianna Fail candidates to claim credit for any investment.

A Fianna Fail spokeswoman said the party did not approve of the action being taken by the North Monaghan candidates because the approach was "very negative".

She said that discussions between Mr Martin and local representatives had been going on for a significant period of time and Mr Martin had recently announced an investment of €2.7m in the hospital.

by John Thu Apr 22, 2004 10:51

Nowhere did I say FF/PD are doing a great job. One could not apply the word 'great' until such time as there are no waiting lists. But, performance is relative. The FF/PD government are doing much better than anywhere else in these islands. In England, Scotland and Wales, all of which have Labour governments, waiting-lists are 3 to 4 times as long. But, worst of all was the SF record in NI. The electorate in the ROI should be made aware of it. Compared to the SF record in NI, then FF/PD are doing a relatively good job, yes.

SF are on shaky ground bringing up the subject of people lying on trolleys. I quote from the BBC News website of April 2003, just after DeBruin was sacked. The figures relate to NI and cover approximately the period DeBruin was running the health service there.

Big increase in trolley waits
--------------------------------------

The number of people forced to wait on trolleys in hospital accident and emergency departments because no other beds were available has gone up by nearly 50% in the last year. In the first two months of 2003, the total number of people waiting in casualty units for a bed at breakfast time was nearly 3,600. This figure has risen by nearly 50% from the same period last year, and is nearly treble the figure for two years ago.


I notice a marked absence of socialists from NI rushing to the defence of the SF record up
there.

by POl Kinsella. Wed Apr 21, 2004 19:09

Just to contradict your earlier point, Sinn Fein did not loose a set in Tyrone, The SDLP did, and Sinn Fein’s vote rose in the area.
It is funny having a PD/FF person on trying to say they are doing well on health, take a walk up to Tallaght hospital or Nass General Hospital, or any hospital in the City and see the people on trollies. You said wating list would be a thing of the past, all you have done is manipulated the numbers. You say its not about resources, Fianna Fail would say that, after all they are the party of cutbacks, (fewer acute beds now than in 1999). If you think you doing a great job go and talk to the people of Clare who have had to fight to keep their hospital, Talk to the people of Monaghan, the famly who lost a loved one while travelling in an ambulance because of the cuts. Tell them you are doing a good job and see what the reaction is. Fianna Fail think they can fool the people but they are barking up the wrong tree mate.

by John Wed Apr 21, 2004 18:48

Its not just a matter of resources but organisation as well. Funding in the NI health service was at that time at least as much as in ROI (although since greatly increased in ROI by the FF/PD government), yet DeBruin with the same resources achieved hospital waiting-lists 4.5 times that of Michael Martin.
Since DeBruin was sacked hospital waiting lists have fallen by 10% in NI. When DeBruin was in charge they rose sharply. Are there any socialists, as distinct from nationalists, in NI willing to say DeBruin did a good job? Lets here from you if there are. Socialists in the ROI who are confused on the matter should contact the NI sections of their respective parties and see what they think of DeBruin's record. I guarantee their comments will be unprintable.

by Pol Kinsella Wed Apr 21, 2004 16:22

What where the levels of people on the waiting lists when she took over? The assembly had no taxation raising power to deal with the deficit of funding in the health service, which was left to rack and ruin under direct rule. There lies the problem. Also by now Fianna Fail said they would have no waiting lists. (See their election manifesto)

by John Wed Apr 21, 2004 14:47

Nonsense! Ministers in the Northern Ireland Excecutive had complete autonomy over their departments without regard to other ministers in the Executive or to any unionist majority in the Northern Ireland Assembly. Indeed, that this was so was one of the gripes of the anti-Agreement factions like the DUP and one of the arguments that the SDLP and SF used in support of the Agreement in the referendum in 1998. Had it not been like this, the nationalist population would never have supported the Good Friday Agreement (and rightly so). It wasn't a Coalition as in the Republic now where FF and PD must agree on any policy that is implemented. SF had complete autonomy in regard to running the Northern Ireland health service. And what was the result? During the 2 years that Barbara DeBruin was in charge, hospital waiting lists soared to an all-time record. Since she was sacked they have come down by 10%. SF says the FF/PD record on hospital waiting lists is terrible. All these things are relative. The SF record must be 4.5 times as terrible, since under Barbara DeBruin hospital waiting lists in Northern Ireland were 4.5 times those in the Republic under Michael Martin. The SF record was so bad that in West Tyrone a doctor running on health service issues took a seat from SF in the 2003 Assembly elections. This was attributed to resentment at the decision by Barbara DeBruin to close the only hospital in Omagh. In the Republic no town the size of Omagh is without a hospital of some kind.
Perhaps representatives of socialist (as distinct from nationalist) parties in Northern Ireland would care to contribute to this debate and give indymedia readers their assessment of SF's performance in running the Northern Ireland health services. It won't be very flattering if the comments of socialist Eamonn McCann in his column in the Belfast Telegraph are anything to go by.

by Pol Kinsella. Wed Apr 21, 2004 13:38

As you are aware Sinn Fein was a member of a coalition government, quite a unique one? Where Sinn Fein free to make policy decisions based on the party line, I am sure that the decisions may have been different. However, the operation of the assembly made that difficult. The old saying however, "Too wrongs don’t make a right" applies. The record of the PD's and their junior partners Fianna Fail has been terrible.
You have every right to distribute whatever literature you want, just as we will continue to distribute those leaflets outlining the range of issues where the PD/FF have failed the people. Let me add, the reception for Sinn Fein on the doorstep has been great, the policies demanding change have a real resonance with the people. I feel we will make a really historical breakthrough in that area. Just as Dublin South West was the first party to declare a Sinn Fein TD in Dublin since Countess Markievicz, so it will be the first to elect two Sinn Fein councilors in the one ward in the City. Why? Hard bloody work.

by byzantine Wed Apr 21, 2004 13:18

we have to wait to see how we feel. Won't be the first election we fixed, didn't we make it clear we are in control now. And we are asking you nicely to facilitate the changeover to the betterment of all speices in the garden and all the children of the Rasta Man.

for we are better than the borg, and our technology is undreamt of in your greed.

How you going to pay the rent for our planet?

We acknowldedge the great guardian cartoon on Blair's cyclopsis, but point out the blue eye is the symbol of good luck in Turkey, formerly anatolia. Now you get it now you don't.
Global wanking is such fun.

by John Wed Apr 21, 2004 13:13

Dear Pol,

You have carefully avoided any comment on DeBruin's record. I will write to FF and PD and advise them to distribute leaflets in Tallaght highlighting the terrible record of SF in government in Northern Ireland in relation to hospital waiting lists. Better prepare to have a better answer for the electorate in Tallaght than you have shown here.

by Pol Kinsella Wed Apr 21, 2004 13:10

Sorry Mick Billane left Labour and joined Fianna Fail because he thought it would give him a better chance.

by Pol Kinsella Wed Apr 21, 2004 13:07

The leaflets out in Tallaght, THE FENIAN, are hurting the establishment parties because they accurately describe the failure of the current government on a wide range of issues? It talks about housing and the soaring cost. It talks about your cuts in education and St Killians School. It talks about Tallaght hospital and how a seriously sick person was left to wait in reception for five hours while suffering from meningitis because of under funding. The current edition of the Fenian is 12 pages long; so much material on the governments poor record existed that we could of produced a thirty six-page edition. Fianna Fail has privately acknowledged that they will loose a seat in Tallaght south. They have told members of Sinn Fein that they are getting hammered on the door. One of them, Mick Billane, is probably now regretting running of to join Labour in an attempt to boost his chances of getting elected. In Tallaght south Sinn Fein have two very good and well-respected candidates, Cathal King and Brendan Ferron. Since coming on the council Cathal has got the reputation of being a fighter, while Mr. Ferron is very well know for his work on education issues. The reason for the growth of the party in this area is simple; people are fed up of FF/PD lies and cutbacks. Votail Sinn Fein No.1

by John Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:04

Sinn Fein should be fined because of their performance in government. They should never be allowed to run a government department again anywhere, not simply because of the IRA, but because their left-wing ideology makes them useless at it. When Barbara DeBruin was running the health services in Northern Ireland, the hospital waiting list soared to 59,000, the highest in Europe, and 4.5 times as long as the hospital waiting list in the Republic. Why don't Sinn Fein put DeBruin's record in the leaflets they are handing out in Tallaght. Since DeBruin was sacked the hospital waiting list in Northern Ireland has come down to 53,000, still 4 times as long as that which FF/PD are achieving in the Republic, but better by far than under Sinn Fein.

by Tim O'Brien Tue Apr 20, 2004 18:41

Speaking of Cory, which found (with more evidence than cobbled together than the IMC) that the British state was/is involved in murder and collusion - will the pay of the British Labour Party be docked?

Is state murder OK? This is just a sick joke at the expense of the political credibility of the British state in the North. It impresses no one, apart from a desperate Bertie trying to shore up some votes.

by J.p. Tue Apr 20, 2004 16:44

his report come a couple of weeks after corry. It was asked by the goverments to be moved up. wonder why? wonder who it takes the heat off?

by shinner Tue Apr 20, 2004 16:37

I don’t believe so. The voters are far to sophisticated, and I believe they will see through what is being thrown at them. Having been out canvassing for Sinn Fein for the last month while this mud has been thrown I feel that there will be no real effect. If anything the support in Sinn Fein's core areas such as Tallaght appears to be getting stronger. Despite the best efforts of the establishment parties to demonize Sinn Fein so as their failure in government will be overlooked, the voters remain unconvinced.
The use of the security services, the media etc. to peddle lies without any real factual evidence does pose a real threat to democratic process. We are seeing the really ugly face of spin by the political establishment in a dirty little game to try and hold onto power.

by Peter Tue Apr 20, 2004 16:22

I think SF could be harmed electorally by this report. It was fairly strongly worded.

the fact is that the reason SF has increased its support is because the memory of the atrocities the IRA carried out on a daily basis has faded. For most people the existance of the IRA is an irrelevence so they have no problem voting SF. However this report will remind people that the IRA are still active and it could make people more reluctant to vote SF or even give them transfers. I think it will lose them marginal seats.

by shinner Tue Apr 20, 2004 16:01

Having just read the report by the IMC I must agree with Janus.
Also I should correct a few points in the original story. The IMC did not say that they would of recommended the suspension of Sinn Fein from the assembly; they say they may of considered it. Secondly they have not decided to suspend the wages of Sinn Fein MLA's. That is wholly inaccurate and untrue.
The report itself reads as one cobbled together. It is devoid of any real facts and is largely made up of information supplied by PSNI special branch and the Gardai. On the issue of Bobby Tohill the report really falls apart. They say that they are bound by the laws of subjudacy and therefore cannot really say what evidence they have to implicate the IRA in the incident, yet they are prepared to say categorically that it was the IRA. Surely in the absence of the publication of any evidence they should not make such a remark. Without providing the basis on which they came to this decision it is a worthless statement. They say in their report that they are aware that membership of an illicit organization charges where dropped at the men’s first court appearance. They don’t explain why this was. Surely if these men were members of the IRA then that charge should still stand. The statement is also very prejudicial given that the men are still facing charges related to the incident.
They then make the old McDowell accusation about cigarette lorries. Again they provide no evidence of this such as where and when. Yet again all w have are totally unsubstantiated allegations. They talk about punishment attacks lumping All republican groups together, they do this because they know that on their own the amount of attacks carried out by the Provisional IRA are next to none.
This report, is as we all imagined, politically motivated. The two governments for electoral gain have brought it forward. It damages that peace process. It gives fodder to the enemies of peace. It is drivel.

by Jonah Tue Apr 20, 2004 15:24

SF has never recognised the setting up of the so-called Independent Monitoring Commission, which is outside the scope of the Good Friday Agreement and which we believed would be used to politically attack SF for the actions of an organisation over which it has no control.

Guess what? We were right.

A report from the IMC, especially one lashed together as quickly as possible so it would come out before the election, isn't worth the paper it's written on and I think the effect on SF's vote will be negligible. The most recent opinion poll showed an increase in our vote despite sustained, electorally motivated attacks on the party.

Ordinary working class people can see through media spin and establishment spinning. Regrettably, most other left wing activists cannot.

by SFwatch Tue Apr 20, 2004 15:17

Will Sinn Fein come out now and condemn the IRA's actions?

If not why not?