- IVANA'S EURO CAMPAIGN TABLE QUIZ -

by Paddy Tue Apr 20, 2004 17:44

For a start Im not in the SP, never was and never will be, cos I abhor centralism. I certainly did not agree with their stance on direct action and was, in fact one of the original fencepullers at Shannon, though the cops did'nt catch me, perhaps cos the sight of a middleaged man trundling towards the tarmac made them laugh so much!

So who are the real enemies? The ruling class of course and the parties that represent their interests ie FF FG PD. But things are never that simple and social democratic parties have a contradictory role, sometimes proping up capitalism sometimes introducing limited reforms but never ever attempting to bring about a transformation of society. In fact sometimes SD parties can become the favourite party of capital as in Blairs New Labour or the PSOE during the reign of Gonzales, as can individual SD politicians ie Craxi in Italy during the 80s or our own Ruari Quinn who was the most right wing Finance Minister in our history until Mc Creevy arrived.

So, while many labour members are socialists, the party is objectively a barrier to building a new radical party of the working class a la the SSP in Scotland. there is also a real problem with the class nature of the Labour Party which is now predominantly a 'middle class' party in membership terms. While people of all kinds of backgrounds can be good socialists, that kind of skewing inevitably has an impact on both the practice and policies of a party (Just look at the SWP!)

You will note that I never denounce ordinary Labour members but urge them to leave and join the effort to build this new movement. I reserve my attacks for the cynical gang of ex-DLers who now run the show: trust me, I worked closely with them for many years and their sole ambition is seats at the cabinet table, full stop. They are entirely lacking in principle. As for Ivana, she's not in the same league as them, but you have to admit she has'nt exactly a 'militant' record, has a history of U-turns and I believe that my categorisation of her as a 'liberal' not as a term of abuse but a description of her political position is correct.

Neither Berlin nor Boston but Revolutionary Socialism! (Of the non-Leninist kind of course!)

by LY Tue Apr 20, 2004 17:11

Wisdom doesnt always come with age. Maybe I will become cynical and give up on Labour but not just yet. Paddy I was annoyed at the tone of your original posting, this one is more fraternal. I think Ivana is a worthy candidate and you misrepresented her in the stark way you ascribed views to her.

Just as even I have to admit it can be easy to misrepresent the SP by ascribing views to them about Shannon etc. Paddy lets agree that the main enemy is FF, FG, PDs. Otherwise we end up in Life of Brian land.

by The Real Paddy Tue Apr 20, 2004 16:31

Paddy is not 'obbsessed' with Labour. Paddy is a marxist who sees the importance of exposing the right of social democracy and trying to encourage the left of social democracy towards a more radical position. This is not unique but has always been part and parcel of working class struggle.

Paddy also has detailed knowledge going back many years of De Rossa and co., indeed Paddy was once a young red who took the Bearded one for his words but gradually learned that these were meant to lull the rank and file for the next shift right. Unlike De Rossa and his gang Paddy has grown older, wiser but not cynical and remains dedicated in word and deed to the struggle for a socialist transformation of sociaty.

As for fighting Fianna Fail etc. Paddy can modestly say he has given a lifetime of active struggle including the housing action, water tax, bin tax campaigns etc. etc. His advice to LY (if he/she is a socialist): make the break, come over from the dark side and help build a new party of the working class rather than wasting your time proping up the careers of ambitious hacks.

by Hebe Mon Apr 19, 2004 20:01

I know Paddy isnt in the SP but I suspect his fan is. Some of the other comments seem to come from the puppies kennel.

by Paddy fan Mon Apr 19, 2004 19:58

Paddy's comments on Bacik and Labour were entirely correct but he is not and never has been a member of supporter of the Socialist Party.

by Hebe Mon Apr 19, 2004 19:53

I am opposing childish attacks. I want to see the Labour Party in CARR and while I have respect for Joe Higgins, Bacik has the better position on the National question. She has also proven herself on a lot of other issues over the last 15 years. Lets see where some of the puppies are in 15 years time.

by Republican Socialist Mon Apr 19, 2004 19:35

What's a republcian socialist doing defending the party of Rabbitte, De Rossa, Gilmore and McManus.
Forgotten the past or what hebe?

by Hebe Mon Apr 19, 2004 18:55

And its not even May yet. You lot must really be afraid of Ivana if this level of abuse is used. As Paddy Fan well knows Ivana was at the CARR press conference and is totally opposed to the Racist Referendum. As is Joe Higgins who was happy to share a platform with Ivana at the Press Conference.
Joe understands that you have to build broad coalitions if you are to succeed.

Joe and Ivana are adults unlike the SPuppies who must attack everyone who does not agree with them.

Labour have finally made it clear that they will, as a party, oppose the Raciost Referendum.

by The quiz master Mon Apr 19, 2004 18:26

The quiz will include rounds based on popular TV quiz shows, including:

The Weakest Link (in the Socialist chain - the Labour Party)
Who Wants To Be A Millionaire (Yes, you CAN phone a friend) (Ruari's brother or a multitude of others that Labour have sold out to.)
Countdown (Not long until Labour doesn't represent any working class)
Blockbusters (Go there to see videos of when the Labour Party had links to the working class)
If you are not careful, there will be a round based on 'Quicksilver' (Stop the lights Bunny Rabbitte)
- A full house will ensure this does NOT happen! (Enjoy, I'm sure there will be plenty of jokers too.)

by Paddy Fan Mon Apr 19, 2004 18:23

"what did the Labour Party ever do to him"

Partnership deals the bosses

Support Nice Treaty

Coalition Government with the Bosses' Parties

Introduce Water Tax disconnections

Not Oppose Citizenship Referendum

..... need I go on?

by LY Mon Apr 19, 2004 18:10

He always comes on with the same rant. Even if its a fund raising event the same screed will vent forth. what did the Labour Party ever do to him and what has caused this magnificent obseession?

Paddy if you are really a Socialist then why dont you vent your spleen at FF, FG,the PDs.

And calm down, remember this is only an ad for a quiz.

by Paddy Mon Apr 19, 2004 17:38

Some facts about Ivana:

She was against Nice then she was for Nice.

She was against coalition now she's for coalition.

She opposes the neoliberal aspects of the new Euro Constitution but she wont oppose it in a referendum.

She's against the occupation of Iraq by the US but not if it has a UN figleaf.

She doesnt like Blair but she won't have a problem working with her British Labour colleagues in the PES.

She thinks the Provo's are to the right of Labout cos they accepted a donation from Coca Killa but she's forgotten Ethna Fitzgeralds corporate lunch with Ruairi Quinn.

She concerned about 'ordinary people' but she had nothing to say about the Bin Tax struggle, even when 'ordinary people' were jailed.

And so on and so on....

In fact the only issue that I can think of where Ivana has displayed principle and integrity has been that of abortion where she has unambigiouly advocated womens right to control their own bodies.

Ivana is not a left candidate but a liberal one, and the Labour Party tacitly acknowledge this when they target all her propaganda at a middle class audience i.e. the puke-inducing plug in saturdays Irish Times supplement. The Sunday Business Post poll confirmed this with the revelation that most Labour Party supporters are from the middle classes rather than the working class.

As the song goes 'you cant always get what you want' and Paddy wishes there was a Sheridan or Chavez to vote for in Dublin, but despite his aversion to leninism he will be voting for Joe Higgins, who is a decent and principled oul skin and for Patricia Mc Kenna cos she drives liberals and conservatives bonkers, including those in her own party. But defintiely no votes for Proinsias De Big Fat Salary or Ivana the Enlightened.

PS Once again Paddy calls on the socialists who are still in the Labour Party to make the break and help build a new party of the working class.

by Trot Watcher Mon Apr 19, 2004 17:20

There will be plenty of non Cultists at it. What do you mean about Ivanas salary, should she work for TCD for free??? Joe Higgins also has a salary paid by taxpayers.

No one is stopping the SP, SWP or independents from advertising fundraisers here..

by Labour Watcher Mon Apr 19, 2004 17:08

No thanks, I'd prefer to have my eyeballs chewed by a cat than go to a Labour Party fundraiser

Surely Prof. Bacik can fund her campaign without these events. I'm sure she gets a nice salary from the University of Dublin and the Trade Union bureaucrats will always mis-spend money on the Labour Party.

SP, SWP, independents etc will have fundraisers that I would consider going to. They are not well financed political machines that are doing very well running high profile media campaigns. Prof. Bacik, go and feck off your not getting my money.