US security experts 'butchered like sheep'

by falafel Thu Apr 01, 2004 19:49

so just what does that have to do with an independent irish media resource, so you read a paper and want to tell us all that you are literate, whoop dee doo. If you are getting your jollies from it then i think you are in the wrong place

by tá 'fhios a'am Thu Apr 01, 2004 20:09

May I suggest that it might have to do with the fact that, having heard the mainstream reporting of the above event, I was still left not-knowing who they worked for or why, specifically, they were there.

Well done, Indymedia. Once again your service has proved an invaluable supplement to other media; filling-in the all-important blanks in detail.

by Resistance Militia - National Front for the Liberation of Iraq Thu Apr 01, 2004 20:59

Military mercenaries working for a regime of terror in a war zone should not be surprised that their (intended) victims take powerful exception to their activities.

As far as the patriotic iraqi resistance is concerned, these people are 'enemy combatants' of the most dangerous calibre and as such must stand high up on any list of legitimate targets.

Imperialism now weeps for its slaughtered butchers, while the heroic resistance fighters and the spirited people they represent will dance the streets in joy.

Remember, the end (freedom) justifies the means (killing invaders). The rights to self-defence, national sovereinty and self-determination are established fundamental principles of Law.

Sterling work, chaps, keep sending the game-boy Yankee army (and auxiliaries)home in zipper-bags, victory will come in 2004

Iraqi Resistance - "Eat this, Gringo"

by David C. Thu Apr 01, 2004 21:03

The american media initialy described the four dead men as 'contract workers helping to deliver food in the Falujah area' - obviously trying to make them look like aid workers rather than armed ex-special forces soliders. It looks like the truth is out in the mainstream press now, though.

The US media is market driven, which means that in the american people get the news that they WANT to hear - which is something very different than the truth. Americans WANT to hear that 4 innocent, pony-tailed, blond female aid workers who were only trying to save Iraqi babies were murdered savagely by evildoers. Us vs them. Good vs evil. All very obvious. What they DON'T WANT to hear is that americans are so visceraly hated by everyday ordinary people in Falujah that a mob will take on 4 heavily-armed special forces soliders and literally rip them to shreds. And they REALLY DON'T WANT to ask why they might be hated so much.

Also on Wednesday, 5 US solilders were killed by an IED and 6 Iraqis were killed by a suicide bomb. Does the US media care? Nope! The american media doesn't even care about the 4 guys who died in Falujah - it only cares about what happened to their bodies after they died. This is the kind of ignorant, callous, thoughtless sensation-driven bullshit that makes the americans so dangerous and hated. They don't even notice the loss of human life. They just don't care.

by Grade 2 Thu Apr 01, 2004 21:54

As they were hacking the corpses to pieces they chanted "Long Live islam", Allahu Akbar etc.


From the Koran:

"They [unbelievers] would like you to reject Allah as they reject Allah so that you would all be the same. Do not take as a friend any of them until they have made a pilgrimage in the Way of Allah. And if they run away from you, seize them and kill them wherever you find them....

....if they keep out of your way, and if they do not fight against you and if they SUBMIT to you, Allah does not allow you to harm them.

SURA 4 An-Nisa 88.

by Northern Eye Thu Apr 01, 2004 22:19

I was watching the pantomine that is Fox News this evening and the shrill voiced presenter of some chat show read out an e-mail from some woman who wanted the US to drop a massive bomb on Fallujah which would destroy the 'guilty' people in the city after the US military had evacuated as many innocents as they could. The dead eyed audience clapped heartily at this sublime suggestion almost to a man but I was just thinking about the logistics. I mean were they going to send letters to every house in the area saying that the city was to be destroyed at, say, 12pm and would all people who supported the American invasion of their country mind finding their way to saftey and would all others please stay in their beds, and thank you fro your cooperation, please have a nice day.

These people are the masters of the universe you know. We're all fucked.

by ec Thu Apr 01, 2004 23:09

While what happened in Fallujah yesterday, while horrific [video], was not surprising. Nor is it as significant as other violence that has taken place around Iraq in the last week. Of more concern to the Americans should be what's going on in south and north. In Basra this week, there have been running street battles between locals and British troops. Basra is in the Shiite south, where the people rose up against Saddam in 1991 and who you'd think would appreciate the Anglos for liberatin' em. There was also more violence in the Mosul this week, which is technically not in the Sunni Triangle - but is a brewing battleground between Kurds and the Baathist/jihadist underground. On Sunday, Kurdish leader Nisreen Berwari, Iraq's minister of public workds, narrowly escaped an assassination attempt there.

by Lone Gunman Thu Apr 01, 2004 23:34

I would not approve of this plan.I would be inclined to be a bit more subtle.like wait and find out whoever this lot is.Find their nest and then positively Id and then dispose of them ala long range with one bullet preferably after or before Friday prayers.Like what the Isrealies did with that crippled wheelchair bound mass murder.[May Allah curse him and his family for ever].Cheaper more cost effective.
Thats what the fanatics want. A US lash back against the pouplation.
Got to hand it to the Isrealies though.They REALLY know how to deal with terrorists.Bomb us ,we hit back harder.The US should employ them more in Iraq,as I am beginning to belive that this war was fought for Isreal.
No WMDs,yet.No threat to the West ,but plenty of support for Isreals enemies from ol Saddo.Most of his statements were aimed at support of the Palestineinan terrorists/freedom fighters.Gulf war1, Isreal gets hit with the Scuds.Why not SaudiArabia,or the colation forces heading towards Kuwait?Makes more tactial sense.
Why are we doing Isreals dirty work?

by jabotinsky Thu Apr 01, 2004 23:54

Sharon to Peres: "Don't worry about American pressure; we control America"

Jerusalem: 3 October, 2001 (IAP News)

An acrimonious argument erupted during the Israeli cabinet weekly session last week between Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and his foreign Minister Shimon Peres during which Sharon reportedly yelled at Peres, saying "don't worry about American pressure, we control America."

According to Israel radio (in hebrew) Kol Yisrael, Peres warned Sharon Wednesday that refusing to heed incessant American
requests for a cease-fire with the Palestinians would endanger Israeli interests and "turn the US against us."

At this point, a furious Sharon reportedly turned toward Peres, saying "every time we do something you tell me Americans will do
this and will do that. I want to tell you something very clear, don't worry about American pressure on Israel, we, the Jewish
people control America, and the Americans know it."

The radio said Peres and other cabinet ministers warned Sharon against saying what he said in public because "it would cause us a public relations disaster."

by David C. Thu Apr 01, 2004 23:56

Don't bother waiting. "this lot" is the majority of the people of Falujah!!! Men, women, teenagers, grandmothers, little kids!!

Iraq will be liberated when the last fleeing american runs panic-stricken across the Kuwaiti border. Remember the scene in "Black Hawk Down" when the fleeing americans stagger panic-stricken after their Pakenstani UN rescuers, chased by a mob of angry Somalis? Just like that....

by Dave Fri Apr 02, 2004 00:29 cooper_hawkes_ at hotmail dot com

Grade 2 you think that by quoting one line out of context you can suggest that Islam is a violent religion? This is the same old racist crap Islamo-phobes try everywhere. Ever read the Old Testament? Some of the most genocidal stuff ever written can be found there! Does that mean Christians are violent? I'm no expert on Islam -but at least I know enough about it not to believe this ignorant crap. If you had ever bothered to read any of the Qur'an you would know that this "Islam preaches violence" crap is bullshit -if you want to find out you can get one free in the Mosque in Clonskeagh. If not, get back to scribbling f**king swastikas on your copy of The Sun.

Oh and by the way im looking at a copy of the Qur'an right now at "SURA 4 An-Nisa 88" where you claim to have gotten your quote and it doesn't say ANYTHING of what you wrote. Are you SURE you weren't duped by some dodgy website? Muppet.

by Grade2 Fri Apr 02, 2004 01:29

Violence is repeatedly stressed in the Koran and the Hadith is even worse. Have a read before you go giving your trendy liberal opinions.

Islam spread by conquest and millions were forced to convert at the poit of a sword. " Put the unbelievers to death" is the central message of the Koran.

Read it for yourself....

Re: the Old Testament, this is largely ignored by most Christians - the peaceful message of the New Testament is a million times superior to anyrhing in the Koran.

by falafel Fri Apr 02, 2004 01:44

When mainstream media says independent contractors it takes very little to guess what that means and then go and verify it, like i said whoop de doo, thats about it really.

Also as courageous resitance fighters all you actually have to do is shoot your enemy, kill the intended target, cause the enemy casualities and so reduce their operational capacity, but to continue on as they did is a little bit base dont you think. On the other hand to achieve a successful guerrilla outcome this isnt the way to go about it (try reading guerrilla warfare: theory and practice, tapert) you have to hit them financially on the ground and morally in their own country, an outrage like this boosts americas revenge response, does not shame them and costs nothing. In fact it shames iraq. It is a basic reactionary response that asks for revenge. Lets just say theoretically, that america decided to nuke iraq, what americans would give a fuck and how would it hurt them. arse, muslim militants say the americans have an assumed form of power but the fact is that they have the weapons to win if you put their back agaist the wall. it is far preferable to provoke them into an over-reaction in iraq, that will shame them at home, hurt them financially and cause a pull out of troops. Like we did in 1916, a blood sacrifice can achieve great ends, unless you are a bunch of...... well lets not start slagging. reaction is pointless unless it is measured and within the structure of a larger plan. the lesson, cop on, victory can be achieved with less casualties, if you want go ahead and have a great and glorious war, but feck off if you want to pedal it to us as the only solution.

by slough feg Fri Apr 02, 2004 01:56

Stop your shite-in on, europe and the west, evil west, where do their ides come from christianity. ooh look its the ancestors of islam, before you changed you mind again on what hallucinating beggar you believed, all that crap religion that originates in the middle east, you created your own problems by sending out your over zealous christian missionaries, if only you had waited a few centuries we would all be muslim. stop your complaining, the people of the middle east past are theoretically responsible for every freak american christian capitalist. If you and your freak religions had left us alone you would control your own destiny, you destroyed our ancient civilisations and though we may have helped do it stop complaining when religious conflicts that all spring from the middle east come home to roost. Humanity is a vicious greedy race and thank you soooooo much for giving us all the religions we need to hide behind. Give me a time machine and i'll nip it in the bud

by Hilal Fri Apr 02, 2004 09:44

You are mistaken or misled "Grade 2". Al Nisa ayat 88 in fact says:

"Why should ye be divided into two parties about the hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the way never shalt thou find the way. "

Very apt for your slaughtered friends but not what you quote as An-Nisaa, ayah 88.

Your claim that the New Testament is "superior" to the Koran is also based on ignorance. The Koran is indeed built aftet the work of Jesus. It is built on his message of Love and not some throwback to Old Testament Jewish belief of retribution.

You should read what the Koran has to say about Jesus and Mary, my ignorant friend. Read about Iosa and the virgin birth if you would know the truth . Or will you continue to base your Truth on a version written by Jewish historians under the supervision of a Roman army of occupation and what you have been TOLD about Islam.

If you want an apt quote.....

Surah Al-Mulk, 5
"And We have (from of old) adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire."


http://www.blackwaterusa.com/

Would you believe these professional killer assholes have a burning white 4x4 as a logo on this site.....

http://www.blackwatersecurity.com/

Surah Al-Baqara, 177
"..to spend of your substance out of love for Him for your kin for orphans for the needy for the wayfarer for those who ask and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient in pain (or suffering) and adversity and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth the Allah-fearing"

by David Fri Apr 02, 2004 10:11

I was really really surprised when i saw the Iraqi Lawyer drafted in for a soundbyte refused to condenm the attacks and actually spoke out against the US attacks and equated the mutilation of 1000 vicillians with the mutilation (after they were dead) of 4 mercinaries.
They must have made a mistake in the filtration process

Some context
Madeline Albright declared that she was selflessly prepared to pay the price of 5000 utterly innocent iraqi children a week for 12 years to protect some petty ideology and the world shruigs its shoulders
Yet Islam is "a violent religion" (it probably is, but its no mre or less violent than christianity) and iraqi people are savages..

by Mick Flint Fri Apr 02, 2004 14:15

All those pathetic middle class irish leftists - tugging away while looking at the pictures on TV. They've always had a hard on for violence - provided of course someone esle is doing it. These Iraqis behaved like animals but our armchair revolutionaries will excuse anything.

by Drbinoche Fri Apr 02, 2004 20:44

I must admit this is a new low for Indymedia. You rejoice at the deaths of American soldiers, hell fuck it, why not rejoice everytime someone gets hit by a car in America. Let me remind you that you have NO idea who these men were, who their families were, what they were actually doing in Iraq. All you can specualte is they were ex-spec ops, they were BUTCHERED by a supposedly peace loving people, nice show there, and that they suffered the most disgraceful and unhumane treatment imaginable. To all of the people who just rejoiced at this, I hope your family suffer a worse fateI really hope everyone you hold dear gets caught in a bomb blast and I hope that you get to suffer the horror of notbeing able to have an open casket funeral because the body is so badly disfigured. I suppose alot of you will say how America bombed and massacred people in Iraq, the difference is, when America dropped a bomb on em, by accident or not, they did NOT then mutilate the bodies and hang em upside down from a bridge and invite kids to stab em.

I find it funny how you guys think this is gonna help the Iraqis, I tell you right now the guys who were killed have friends in Iraq who are still in the Military and these guys will nowno longer give quarter. Do you honestly think a young private 18/19 years old in Iraq is gonna see those horrible pictures and not think it could be him next. So what happens now, the guy goes out on patrol, a stone hits the Humvee and he opens up oout of fear. Hes not right in doing so, but he doesn't care cos he doesn't wanna suffer as these poor men have.

All of you who applaud this behaviour you should be ashamed and you should know two things; America will notlet this stand and eitehr covertly or overtly they will get retaliation, in which many innocents may die and the people who did this have just fucked Fallujah worse than it was before.

They want America to go in and get treated to Hell, fuck it America could watch from a mile away and unleash a hell most Iraqis could never dream about.

by David C. Fri Apr 02, 2004 21:04

...The world will be a much, much safer place if the US is utterly humilated and defeated in Iraq. In the 1960s and 1970s the North Vietnamese succeeded in putting the Americans in a box for 20 years. The heros in Afghanistan did the same to the USSR. The heroic Iraqi resistance (and they are EXTREMELY heroic) appears to be well on their way to acheiving the same success.

Those four Americans had absolutely no right to be where they were. The Iraqis in Falluja were in their home and these Americans came arrogantly among them with guns. Unlike US troops they were in Iraq by choice and so they forfeited their right to live when they got on the plane to travel to Iraq.

America must learn to respect others, and those Iraqis in Falluja are providing that lesson. The entire world owes them its thanks and respect.

by Drbinoche Fri Apr 02, 2004 22:56

I do not call mutilating a dead body heroic Icall itpathetic. You say the peopleof Falluja are heroic I say some are and some are scum.

"they forfeited their right to live" and where might I ask David C is this written down that to go to another country for certain reasons is enough reason for you to be killed and nothing be done about it. Hell thats a fucking lovely stance for an anti-war protestor to take.

I have to ask you, have you got some sort of internal intelligence that no one else has that might explain how you can say they were there forno good reason. Did you sit in on their briefing, did you know their commander or their protectees?? Coz otherwise you have no fucking idea what they were doing in Falluja, you only know the company the originated from and also what country they may have been from, they could have been escorting around people who were there to work on the Water and Electricity problem. I doubt if the Iraqis asked if why they were there, which means the Iraqis are willing to kill any westerner who shows up. Hell that will make em popular. I got a great Idea, we'll pull out all of the Westerners in the region in an effort to not pollute the Iraqis towns and allow them to sort out their own shit. Lets see how theiy fair, hell we might have another Saddam on our hands, or we might end up with a government like the Iranians or maybe if you and your pals have it your way the Taliban will take hold and we can have another fucked up country. Then you guys can come along and bad mouth the rest of the world for not getting involved.

David C in the past you have had some interesting and valid statements,but quite frankly your last statement just showed that you really are a hypocite.

You do realise that by your own standards, Rachel 'Stopsign' Corrie and the English guy who got shot by the Israelis forfeited their right to live. They were in a region that not all of the populace wanted them present and therefore are really no different than the guys who died on Thursday. Ill admit neither Rachel nor Ian were armed, but I don't think the Iraqis really stopped to check what nationality the men who died were.

Cop on lads, it was mindless murder that will only help the 'heroic' Iraqi Rebels.

by Lone Gunman Fri Apr 02, 2004 23:26

If Indymedia would quit CENSORING my posts
.No i would not approve of some fox soundbite.I would be more likely to do what the Isrealis did with that psychopath in a wheelchair in Palestine.Find,ID and track the leaders and their thugs.Two hellfire missiles into the leader in front of his mob after prayers on Friday.Or save the taxpayer a few quid a well placed shot from a 50 calibre sniper rifle will do the job just well.
.As Lenin said the object of terrorism is to terrorise.Better still capture the leader,and then tie him up in public,wrapped up in a pig carcass.He is then dammed for ever to Hell according to his religion.

David C you have a weird world outlook.Vietnam put the US in a box for 20 years?Be utter military defeated?BWHAHAHAHA.Vietnam is now welcoming us back because they NEED evil yankee,running dog CAPITALISM. After 20 years of workers paradise the place is more fucked than when it was under a corrupt monarchy. We might have lost a battle,but we won the war!The domino theory of Communist expansion in the far East failed,as it did worldwide,
actually the communist system is pretty much gone ,apart from a few Stalinist headcases in tin pot dictatorships and in the fevered immaginations of disgruntled leftists.
Militarilly N Vietnam NEVER beat the US in an open battle.They tried in the Tet offensive,but failed miserably. They tried a siege at Khe Sanh hoping to replay the French defeat at Dien Ben phu.Again they failed.There are many reasons for the US defeat in Nam,but it was not by Military means.Even Giap admitted that.he knew Sth Nam would never fall while the US was in command.it fell 12 mths almost to the day when the US pulled out.
Getting back to iraq.This outrage was more than likely an own goal.Bush will use this to say because they are so lawless,etc.We will stay put untill it is sorted.

by David C. Fri Apr 02, 2004 23:54

It is very, very heroic to take on invading occupation troops in your own country despite enormous danger to yourself and to your community. It is very heroic to resist armed arrogance. It was heroic in Ireland in the 1920's against the British 'black & tans', it was heroic in France in the 1940's against the Germans and its heroic in Iraq against the Americans. I don't think that I could ever be that heroic, but I respect it.

The people of Falluja have delivered a huge humiliating blow to the U.S. operation in Iraq and to the Bush Administration. The resistance fighters that planned the action and the 300-person crowd that displayed their deep feelings for Americans for the cameras by mutilating the bodies have succeeded spectacularly in changing the debate about Iraq in the U.S. They scored a home run. They left the Americans fuming - humiliated, impotent and spluttering about 'revenge at a time and place of our choosing'.

Here is the whole US problem in a nutshell:
To Americans, American life is worth much more than non-American life. This is unsustainable and there are two ways to fix it. One way is to increase the value of non-American life to that of American life (the Irish, European, Canadian, UN approach). The other way is to reduce the value of American life to that of non-American life (the Al Qaeda, the Iraqi resistance, etc.). One of these approaches will prevail. American actions under Bush encourage the second approach. I very, very much prefer the first approach.

The U.S. government, the U.S. military, individual U.S. soldiers, U.S. civilian contractors, etc. are NOT in Iraq in order to do good for Iraqis. There is a lot of discussion, spin, hype, etc about WHY they are in Iraq - WMDs, oil, Israel, get rid of a dictator, demonstrate US force, revenge for G.W. Bush, anti-terrorism, replace the lost US bases in Saudi etc. etc. etc. but I think that we basically still don't really know the *specific* reason why these armed Americans are in Iraq. This fact is amazing and very worrying.

We know the *general* reason, though. The general reason that these armed Americans are in Iraq is that they are, as a people and as a nation, extremely arrogant, ignorant and profoundly disrespectful of others. Americans in Iraq (and in Afghanistan, BTW) consider locals to be less than human. Even the Americans who talk about doing good are betrayed by their actions. They kill with impunity and don't even bother to count the dead. They bomb on a hunch - killing women and kids (Oops. Sorry.). They 'suppress fire' by hosing down people homes and streets with machinegun fire. They break down doors. They ignore law and custom. They manipulate governments. They lie and intimidate.

If you were subject to all that what would you do?

Those 4 guys were ex-SEALs and Green berets. By going to Iraq they were knowingly and willingly participating in a conflict, and they lost.

by David C. Sat Apr 03, 2004 00:18

Lone Gunman - Did you ever see the interview with Robert McNamara, the US Defense secretary and 'architect' of the Vietnam war, in which he literally weeps and begs forgiveness for his role in what happened? Its very interesting. I highly recommend it. The more recent interview with McNamara in the Oscar-winning documentary 'The Fog of War' gives more insight into the utter failure of America in Vietnam.

After utterly defeating and humiliating the United States, the Vietnamese went on to rescue Cambodia from the Khmer Rouge and then to build their country into the beautiful, safe, secure, prosperous nation that it is today. If you were to use your Internet browser a little you would quickly learn that Vietnam is an economic and social miracle. They have succeeded spectacularly in building a country that is the envy of south-east Asia. The Vietnamese are truly one of the great peoples of the world.

The Vietnamese won the war.

by Dave Sat Apr 03, 2004 00:54

Grade 2, if the alternative to being a trendy liberal is being a brain-dead ignorant bigot like you then I'll be a trendy liberal any day.

by Hilal Sat Apr 03, 2004 09:48

Jerry Zovko, 32, an Army veteran from Willoughby, Ohio. Zovko joined the Army in at age 19. He spoke five languages fluently - English, Croatian, Spanish, Russian and Arabic. He had been a member of the Special Forces at Fort Bragg, North Carolina.

Mike Teague, 38, Clarkesville Tennessee. He was a 12-year Army veteran who earned a Bronze Star for murdering in Afghanistan and also crusaded in Panama and Grenada. Teague had worked in the security business since leaving the Army six years ago, but joined Blackwater Security only two months ago

Scott Helvenston, Florida, 38, former Navy SEAL commando. A champion in the pentathlon, a participant on a reality TV show about military special forces, a fitness promoter, actor and technical advisor on "G.I.Jane" and "face/off".

Residents of Moycock North Carolina, home of Blackwater security,said Wednesday that the shocking way the bodies were treated helped bring the conflict in Iraq "closer to home".

No identification possible on the fourth as yet.

by Grade2 Sat Apr 03, 2004 10:22

Hilal, I've looked up 2 translations of the Koran into English and they've given me the quote I gave, not the one you gave. So do I have to conclude that it's a Jewish conspiracy??

How about this one:

Sura 4 An-Nisa 94

"The believers who stay at home - unless they are forced to by circumstances - they are not the same as those who fight in the Way of Allah, sacrificing their wealth and their health. Allah puts those who make war with their wealth and with themselves in a higher class than those who stay at home.


What does your version say? (since I seem to be the victim of a Jewish plot).

by Hilal Sat Apr 03, 2004 12:54

Reports trikling through from Iraq are suggesting that the fourth American slaughtered on Wednesday was a senior Department of State or Central Intelligence Chief. Others say he was a senior executive of an American Oil company.

Over two hundred foreign companies who were due to be in Baghdad today to discuss investment in "the New Iraq" have decided to give it a miss and stay at home for the good of their health.

Those wishing to be as prepared as the late Scott Helvenston "for any possible eventuality" can purchase copies of his fitness videos online.

Way to blast those abs Scott

The toughest the US has to offer

by Lone Gunman Sat Apr 03, 2004 14:00

Why David C dont you piss off there and stay there in your wonderful workers paradise? you might find the internet a bit hard to acess there.
It is a corrupt,stinking festering communist shithole.I was there two years ago.It is bankrupt,it is begging for western ,[read US] investment to keep it alive.It is dealing nicely with drugs as is stil Laos,Cambodia,Thailand
Saigon still looks like somthing out of Apcolapse now,drab and grubby ,like most of the socialist workers paradises did in the seventies.
If it is such a wonderful place and a sucess why do they need foregin investment??Proably because their major sponsor China is learning the evil capitalist ways as well.
I really couldnt give a toss about Mc Namara,he was an idiot and should have never have been in charge of anything more important than a gents WC.
The Vietnamese and proably the Irish army could have liberated Cambodia.It was torn apart by a genocidal Stalinist,by the name of Pol Pot. Big deal.
Sorry to dissapoint you Comrade,but you lot lost.If communism won,we should all be marching forward under som glorious red banner,to whatever Red wank fantsy is still held as reality by the dissilusioned.Vietnam will be like most countries soon a pro western "communist" in name only state producing plenty of IBM and Apple computors.Buying our products,or better still the corrupt overlords of the workers will be buying them,as the workers cant afford it,as they toil in conditions that would never be tolerated in any Western capitalist sweatshop. You see,comrade.you can fight TWO types of war.Military and ecnomic,i'll leave you to your fantasy of the US retreating as a defeated army.But the reality is we will OWN SE Aisa and the ex Commie blocks,by their markets.sameas the Japanese OWn pretty much the entire pacific area by ecnomic power.Much more than they ever dreamed they could conquer by force.
OH BTW Do read up some military history of Nam.you might learn that your heros NEVER won a set piece battle ,apart from Dien Ben Phu,which was a siege and the fighters were French.So that says it all.

by ec Sat Apr 03, 2004 14:05

.

by Drbinoche Sat Apr 03, 2004 16:12

David C. - "I don't think that I could ever be that heroic, but I respect it"

Of course thats the truth, coz just like the majority of thepoeple on this site who go on and on about how great the Iraqi resistance are and how terrible America is, you would never ever actually be willing to put YOUR life on the line and help em. You do nothing and applaud when they break their own religious codes. You sit back and welcome and gloat the death of Four people just because they were American and ex-spec ops.

You say one of the Guys got a Bronze Starin Afghanistan and then quip for murder, well, how the fuck do you know what he got it for. Theoretically he could have won it for saving a village from a Taliban attack, or for saving patients, or equally for kicking the living shit out of a bunch of Taliban Fuck-mooks. Either way, you know nothing about why he won it and making a broad speculation furthers the evidence that most of you guys know NOTHING about whats going on.

The Irish who resisted the British never mutilated a British soldier in such a way, the French never burned and cut bodies afterwards and also please note that in both cases, you are talking about an armed resistance group,not a bunch of unarmed Passer-bys. Thats what worries me, you seem to approve of a bunch of unarmed civvies going ape-shit nuts and mutilating the bodies of foreigners. Well what happens when the do it to one of your beloved ISM guys in Palestine, just coz hes English of American. Its possible that that could happen. Where will you guys stand then???

If that behaviour is so accepted David, then would you approve if it happened to a British soldier up the North tomorrow. Someguy out walking, gets abducted, murdered and mutilated in front of the TV cameras. Would you cheer?? Announce how he knew what he had coming to him?? Of course you probably would, but you would not understand that by doing that we would be inviting a very severe backlash from the British people as a whole. You laugh at America not doing anything yet. Well a]. I didn't know you knew everything America is doing in Iraq, if you do, please could you tell us everything that has ever happened there. Americamay have already struck back Covertly, it may have abducted Four innocent Iraqis and have strung em up outside their barracks. You don't KNOW. b]. Do you think America is going to go running in there just guns a blazing with the whole world watching. Of course not, they will do what they do best, wait and strike when they feel fit, and believe me they will strike back hard. Get ready to mourn some more of your Heroic Iraqi idiots.

Once again a very blanket statement from you. No American is in Iaq to do any good. Do you know this for a FACT. Can you prove to me that no american is doing any good. I want Empirical evidence. For all you know some Spec Op team in the North could be right now restoring drinkable water to a village. Quite plausable actually as it is something that Spec Ops do alot.

Fuck the Iraqi Resistance. String em all up and drip dry the ugly fuckers.

by Foundation Sat Apr 03, 2004 16:44

So if they finally managed to oust the evil Yankee invader just what sort of Iraq does he imagine they would create??

He must realsie that these guys are followers of Saddam, they thought he was the greatest thing in Iraq since oil.

The Iraqi Resistance is a tiny group of fanatics who have no future, they are deadenders. They have nothing to offer Iraq.

David C is clearly, like them, soemone who just doesn't get it.

by jeff Sat Apr 03, 2004 21:11

you wrote;

"The Irish who resisted the British never mutilated a British soldier in such a way, the French never burned and cut bodies afterwards and also please note that in both cases, you are talking about an armed resistance group,not a bunch of unarmed Passer-bys"


Are you sure the old IRA never tortured or mutilated anyone? We know for a fact that the French certainly did in Algeria.

Also, your point about an unarmed group- does this mean an armed group would be better or more morally benign by virtue of their weapons?

It is bad enough reading the rantings of deluded leftists, but manic rightists with their good guy badges really make my stomuch turn, especially when they are stupid...

by Flatliner Sat Apr 03, 2004 22:09

Make your point (such as it is) and publish, do NOT tarry to write insults.

by hurler on the ditch Sat Apr 03, 2004 22:47

What about the 19 March 1988 ?

LONDON, MARCH 19 -- Two armed British Army soldiers, dressed in civilian clothes, were dragged from their unmarked car, brutally beaten and shot to death in Belfast today when they drove head-on into an Irish Republican Army funeral procession.

An IRA communique issued to Belfast media said the men had been "executed" after they "launched an attack" on the funeral cortege. It said that the identification and weapons the men had carried indicated they were members of the Special Air Services, or SAS, a special Army commando and intelligence unit.

The Army denied any SAS connection. But seasoned observers in Belfast believed it likely that the soldiers had been on an intelligence-gathering mission connected with the funeral that somehow went tragically awry.

Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher called the killings "an act of appalling savagery." British Northern Ireland Secretary Tom King called for an urgent investigation of what he described as "cold-blooded murders," and said that "neither the government nor the security services will rest until the perpetrators of this unspeakable act are brought to justice."

by FU2 Sat Apr 03, 2004 23:18

The execution of those two undercover British soldiers was perfectly justified. They were part of a planned attack on the funeral.

by R Isible Sat Apr 03, 2004 23:44

I mean you've got to really hate someone to kill them, burn them and hang them. According the link below the corporate media isn't reporting on the atrocities being currently committed against Iraqi civilians (and that ignores the old atrocities: support by America of the genocidal dictator Saddam Hussein, the starving and witholding of medicines from over 500,000 kids "it was worth it -- Madeleine Albright", the bombing of civilians during the invasion, the invasion of the country).

But I think that Lone Drbinoche isn't serious on this one. He's just getting his jollies. He's advocated prison rape, the murder of civilians, the murder of protestors etc.

All in all I think he's a terrible man, terrible. Outrageous indeed. He certainly get's my back up. Oh god yes. A holy terror. Sure what will he be saying next.

by David C. Sun Apr 04, 2004 00:18

Dribinoche - Mutilating bodies was of limited use before TV became widespread. The whole point is to shock and humiliate the occupying power - possibly enraging them to the point where they either give up or engage in ill-considered retaliation that damages them politically. The mutilation in Falluja was USEFUL. Just check the headlines in the US newspapers for the past 3 days. IT WORKED. Same with the event in the North in 1988 - its one of the few violent events of the 80's and 90's that I specifically remember. IT WORKED. You are shocked by what happened in Falluja. Fair enough. That's why they did it. The people who designed and managed this are very, very smart - probably smarter than either you or I.

This brings up a key point. Wars are no longer primarily military operations. They are increasingly media operations, political operations, diplomatic operations and economic operations. The 'wannabe-warrior' culture that permeates much of (but not all of) the US military hates that fact - because it requires 'war-fighters' who are far more educated, intelligent and, frankly, better-paid, than they are. These new wars are soft-power wars, and the Americans generally just don't understand that.

BTW - What those 4 guys did or did not do in Iraq or Afghanistan is irrelevant. They knowingly participated in a conflict, and they lost. End of story.

Foundation - Despite what Rummy would like you to think, the Iraqi resistance are not 'followers of Saddam' and 'dead-enders'. They are ordinary, everyday Iraqis who want the Americans to get out of their country. Its that simple. Most of them are very glad that Saddam is gone (as am I), but they want the invaders out. There is lots of good-quality poll data from Iraq that shows this clearly. Iraqi's are smart, educated, intelligent people. Once they kick the Americans out (and they will) then they will create a government that works for them.

Lone Gunman - Your American education is probably responsible for your ignorance and borderline illiteracy. Foreign investment is a sign of strength, because corporations only invest in safe, secure, prosperous environments. Ireland, for example, has built its entire economy on foreign investment (ever heard of the IDA?), and there is no shame in that. Also, the US is retreating faster economically than it did militarily. There's two big words called 'trade deficit' that I won't try to explain to you but which mean that Asia is literally eating your lunch, year after year after year.

BTW - The North Vietnamese never won a ' a set piece battle', or a game of croquet, or a thoroughbred steeplechase - all of which were of about the same relevance...

by Foundation Sun Apr 04, 2004 01:41

"Once they kick the Americans out they will create a government that works for them".

Firstly, a handful of desperadoes won't be kicking the coalition forces of over 21 countries out. They will leave when the country is in a fit state to be handed over. When there is a properly trained Army, police force, a democratic constitution and stable political institutions.

Most of the Iraqis want this - as poll data clearly shows - except for the deadenders around Falluja and Saddam's tribal area. These losers are even a tiny minority in Falluja. Their idiotic campaign is actually slowing down the handover of power.

If the international coalition pulled out now they would leave a power vacuum to be filled by who? It would be a horrendous scenario.

Show some sense and get behind the rebuilding of Iraq - those people deserve your support.

by Northern Eye Sun Apr 04, 2004 01:58

'These losers are even a tiny minority in Falluja'

Wrong. A recent opinion poll taken in Falluja shows that 7 out 10 people see attacks on the occupation forces as acceptable.

Heres a great wee article anyway:

http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_6117.shtml

by David C. Sun Apr 04, 2004 02:44

That sounds about right in Falluja. The latest big poll in Iraq was done by Oxford Research International. It shows that most Iraqis are glad that Saddam has gone and most think that the country will be better off in the future because of it, but 61% of Iraqis want US troops out of Iraq and 21% of Iraqi Arabs approve of attacks on US soldiers. Those are huge numbers. (BTW - most Americans don't understand these polls because Americans are generally too simplistically-minded to get past the 'good/bad', 'for us/against us' bullshit).

There is no 'coalition'. There is the US/UK plus a bunch of weak little countries that have been bullied and bribed into supplying token troops as a fig leaf. That's all. The US/UK did this alone. Most of the fig leaves are falling away as the cowardly politicians who went along with the US face their electorates. Spain, Honduras, Poland, Thailand, etc, etc, etc have all announced that they're getting out. The US/UK are alone.

Here are a few things to think about:

-The US/UK has 150,000 troops in Iraq, yet in only a year they have had more than 18,000 medical evacuations.
-Despite suffering many casualties, the resistance is fully as active now as it was a year ago. It has not been diminished even slightly. It also has the initiative.
-The resistance have the support of significant numbers of Iraqis (again, 61% want the US out of Iraq, 21% approve of the attacks), which is why they are so successful.
-Political and diplomatic support in the US/UK and internationally is in freefall (no WMDs = "why are we here?"), as major administration officials like Clark and Powell question the rationale and as 'coalition partners' bail out.

I think that the Iraqi resistance will win. I think that the US will be kicked out of Iraq, that they will have little influence on Iraq's government and that they will have no permanent bases in Iraq.

I am fully behind the rebuilding of Iraq and I expect the US to pay for it. But I would also like to see the US so hurt and humiliated by its experience in Iraq that it thinks very, very, very carefully before doing anything like this ever again. I would also like to see the folly of this war so blatantly demonstrated to the entire world that no country will ever again sign up for an 'American-led coalition' without a clear international mandate. That would make the world (and America) a much safer place.

The Americans are being taught well by the Iraqis and I hope they learn.

by Foundation Sun Apr 04, 2004 03:04

Remember me because I know that you are not in posession if the true facts about Iraq. I'm going to look forward to rubbing your nose in it when the Iraq project comes to a conclusion.

If you weren't so gullible, so blinded by the obvious agit-prop you're swallowing, then you might be able to make a clear judgement.

Remember me, I will remind you of what you said tonight.

by David C Sun Apr 04, 2004 19:02

First Off to whom ever believes me to be Stupid, then that is your own opinion, but by the fact that you do not actuallyknowme then you have NO basis whatsoever to state that by. It would be as if I came on here and accussed all Anti-War protestors ofbeing child-molesters. I don't do it as I do not see why it needs to go that far.

Now as for the Falluja people being smart, thats a very glib and baseless comment. You do not know these people, you do not know about their true feelings or their true followings. They could quite easily be Pro-Saddamers who are just using other people to aid in their overall aims. Also their intelligence is questionable. You believe that by causing this horrible act, which by the way I cannot believe someone would approve ofsuch treatment of fellow human beings, is going to help them when I know it won't It will just lead to further bloodshed from the Americans against the Iraqis and if you think the Iraqis will not lose such a contest then your wrong. If America wanted to , they could quite easily massacre Thousands of Iraqi people aday without having to even fire a bullet. The resistance have just brought further problems their way coz they are now in a situation where American troops on the ground do not really have to be too careful.

The two british soldiers who were murdered by the IRA, quite frankly anyone who believes that those guys were involved in some attack on teh Funeral is a fucking paranoid nutter. They were monitoring the attendance to try and get the IDs of other terrorists, which BTW the IRA are. They were in British territory, which whether you believe Northern Ireland is Irish or not, its NOT. At present its British, maybe itll change but until then its British. So they were murdered for doing their jobs. They were not SAS either, they were probably Unit 14 or one of the other intelligence units. I will concede that that was a case of the IRA murdering british in a horrible manner, but did they then burn the bodies, did they invite young children to cut and stab at the bodies, did they hang the bodies from the nearest bridge. NO!!! They beat them and killed em. It was horrible and disgraceful, but it was nowhere near as bad as the treatment bestowed to the four in Iraq.

I did say something about Prison Rapebefore and I stand by my comments. The murdering of civilians I believe is wrong and totally uncalledfor, but I also know why it happens. Please provide some quotes when I have made these statements.

David Iwould ask that you not drop your credability further by insulting Lone Gunman further, by making such statements that its because he is American that he does not have as much intelligence as you is stupid and pointless. It makes you seem like an Anti-American Racist. I will not state whether he is stupid or not [I don't believe he is as stupid as you make it seem] as I only have what he states here as a basis, its not totally revealing. I am sure we have all seemed stupid to others with many posts, including you David. Definitely including me. So lets just stick to our POVs and debate these things responsibly.

by Lone Gunman Sun Apr 04, 2004 19:59

As you got mightily offended that somone said you were stupid[INMHO opinin they were 100% right] I take umbrage that you think I was educated totally in America .As a matter of fact I was educated in Ireland first off,but couldnt afford the third level education fees here.Another story.
Is this a standard left wing arguement tactic to disregard any point you were proven wrong on?Apart from picking on spelling mistakes and other petty things?You now dismiss that the NVA not winning a set piece battle as revelant as a chess game?
Yet CONSISTENTLY you assured us that the NVA defeated the US militarily.So this either proves three things;
1]
You are talking out of your arse regarding Vietnam,
2] you are an outright LIAR!
3] You have swallowed so much leftist propaganda crap ,you are blinded and bigoted to any differing view.

I did point out also that the resolve of the US to stay the course in Iraq would strengthen.
Even Kerry has now swung into the stay and finish camp.Even the Iraqis in Fallujah themselves are offended by the atrocity.The Mullahs condemmd the mutilations,as against the Koran teachings.
One was quoted as saying" Even the prophet spoke out against the mutilation of the body of a mad rabid dog."
As the Marine general in charge of troops in that area said."We will avenge Fallujah,in our own time and our own way."
Also now those"mecenaries" as you call them will be now kitting up with even heavier firepower.I wonder how your "heroic"freedom fighters would have managed in a one on one shoot out.?
But like our gutless IRA scum killers they went to an attack using roadside bombs.
Forgot to mention the provos were not too adverse to mutilating the enemy,back in 1972 ,forgot the two squaddies who were abducted by two provie women,abducted and shot?Their dicks wer cut off and left in their mouths!Can we also say "Kneecapping" of their own?
Yes I have heard of the IDA,[a more corrupt organisation could not be found outside the Dail. ]
Yes trade deficit,it proved my point that you denied,because it was proably inconvient to you about conquering ecnomically than militarilly.And guess what Comrade?A reason alot of international companies move out there is because there are no trade unions and other bothersome organisations to affect productivy and the wages are lower.And that my fine yank hating leftist freind
,we will pay dearly for soon here in Ireland and Europe,we will price ourselves out of the production markets.What happened in the US,union and labour demands,made US workers one of the most expensive workforces in the world.

by Northern Eye Sun Apr 04, 2004 21:42

I can't really see how that was written by the genuine regular poster David C.

But whoever, according to your logic then the Irish in 1916, 1921 et all. had no right to take up arms against the British at that time because, well, because the whole of Ireland was rightfully British territory at the time and well, thats that. Like it or lump it and leave those poor wee B&T's alone, sure they're only doing their job. Also the French resistence should have just dryed their wee eyes because France in 1940 was actually Germany, don't you know?

Ah, such is the human condition.

by Northern Eye Sun Apr 04, 2004 21:50

Where now, pray tell, did you read that nonsense about the IRA cutting off the soldiers willies and putting them into the soldiers mouths? I've read a lot about that incident where the IRA women killed the soldiers in the early 70's in a lot of books which weren't very friendly towards the Ra, but funny enough all them forgot to mention that particular part of the story. Yoy must have got that off a Loyalist website or just made it up because you're insane.

by David C. Sun Apr 04, 2004 21:56

... I think it was Lone Gunman, who just typed the wrong name at the wrong spot - easy enough mistake. Especialy when enraged.

I have NOT said that the NVA/VC defeated the US militarily. I said that the NVA/VC defeated the US. There is a difference.

The Iraqi resistance will, likewise, defeat the US. And I doubt that they will do it militarily.

A one-on-one shoot out!!! - lets give the Iraqi resistance a trillion dollars of B2s and A10s and cruis missles - then see who wins!!! This is a conflict, not a sporting event...

by Northern Eye Sun Apr 04, 2004 22:14

I can see now Loner Gonemads markings all over it. And did you notice the two personalities at work again as in it he talks about the 'Lone Gunman' part of himself as a seperate entity. Perhaps he thought he was Drbinoche at that moment in time or maybe hes even the infamous Righteous Git as well. Or he could even be begining to think his name is David C, you never can tell with these nuts.

Watch out mate, sure he likes to picture me having a pull.

by Drbinoche Sun Apr 04, 2004 22:50

OK to start with I will admit it was my mistake and I was just trying to keep in my mind who said what, while also trying to keep my thoughts in check. I apologise if it caused any problems.

Now as for me and Lone Gunman being the same person, I don't know where you got that impression from, I agree we share some similar beliefs, but by that rationale then the whole of the Internet is really just two people with multiple names.

From what I have gathered from his posts he lives in America, or has done, I have never lived in America, at present Iive in Dublin.

People who are proud of the IRA to me and really not thinking straight. These are people who went out and butchered other human beings for reasons to do with Land. They murdered to young children in Warrington and yet these people are the ones who think the Americans are in the wrong in Iraq. It is obvious double standards.

I had never heard of the Soldiers being mutilated in such a manner, but then again the only time I openly research or read more about the IRA nowadays is when one of their dumbass rogues get a nice hefty sentence. They are all sick bastards.

by Northern Eye Mon Apr 05, 2004 18:11

Now regarding the Provos being at war for land. Well, yeah. Of course. That way of saying it does seem to over simplify the reasons that people here took up arms in their own country to win the right to live in a one state nation free from an outside power which propped up a supremicist minority in the country of Ireland and gave them their own secterian and heavily armed state in which to play master and surpress the bothersome natives but yeah, alright, fighting to win back that land from England when there was no other option but through violence is quite right in my eyes. I mean, Irish men and women have been doing it for centuries. Do you condemn them also? If you think the Black & Tan war was romantic and only nice things happened in it then you should go and read a few books on the subject.

Also, the point being that even though the end result of IRA bombs in civilian areas sometimes turned tragic and some were unforgivable ( and I myself would definitely have been against them if I had have been a volunteer ) even the IRA's most vocal critic has to admitt that killing civilians was always a mistake with those bombings, and the Ra always gave warnings. No so with the cowboys who saddle up in fighter jets over Iraq. They carpet bomb recklessly and without warning and do so for no real reasons other than stupidity and greed. Their country wasn't attacked by Iraq nor was it under any kind of threat from it what-so-ever. So I can't really see how you are against the IRA because of violence but a supporter of the American army in Iraq which has slaughtered many, many thousands and will, sadly but inevitably, slaughter many, many more around the globe. Millions, perhaps billions if the totally crazy bible believing George W. Bush attemps to fufill prophecy and bring us into Armageddon.

I would say that I'm anti-war, but I'm more anti reasons for war. The IRA had a reason for war and while I don't agree with some of the tatics they used I do see why they chose to fight. The US had absolutely no real reason to go to war in Iraq, so thats why I'm against it.

by David C. Mon Apr 05, 2004 20:41

It looks like the Americans in Iraq have had a bad few days and have made some really, really stupid mistakes that will hasten their defeat. Smart people don't fight battles that they don't have to fight, but the Americans are not smart people. Consider...

-They have surrounded Falluja and are insisting on 'pacifying' a city in which most of the population viscerally hates them. Intelligent people would have ignored the Falluja event and would have seen the calls for 'revenge' as infantile. Note that its not the deaths that are being 'revenged' - its the humiliation. Now the US forces will either be soundly thrashed in Falluja, or they will commit atrocities that will further foul their already stinking reputation. Nice move, chaps.

-They have cleverly announced that they will arrest Muqtada al-Sadr - who leads 2 million shia Iraqis plus a 70,000 man armed militia. They must now therefore either back down and look like silly impotent fools, or they must try to arrest al-Sadr, which will involve massive ongoing battles, atrocities, etc. Well done, boys.

- Their political geniuses back in the U.S. have announced that the 'handover' of 'sovereignty' to Iraqis on June 30th will proceed, even though no-one knows to whom 'sovereignty' is to be handed to, and even though no-one believes that the Americans have any intention of giving up decision-making in Iraq. Now they must either push back the June 30th date and look, again, like silly dickheads, or they must make as big a fiasco out of the political side of their invasion as they have of the military side, or they must actually give up 'sovereignty' to Iraqi's - who will immediately demand that every last American get the fuck out of Iraq. Brilliant! Brilliant!

The Americans should hire more stupid people, because stupid people would be much, much smarter that the people they have working for them now. I know that power is supposed to corrupt, but I didn't know that it corrupted your actual brain. Keep up the good work lads! You'll all be home by Christmas - one way or another.

by Lone Gunman Mon Apr 05, 2004 23:26

David
I see you are still worming and twisting.Now it is the NVA defeated the US! WOW! So the North Vietnamese had a victory parade thru the ruins of DC?.So they VC/NVA had an occupation force in the continental USA???
May I ask what medication are you on???
Give the Iraquis A10s etc. Did you realise perhaps that Iraq had up untill 1991 one of the most modern armies in the middle east?
They mightnt have had alot of"modern"
equipment but they DID have alot of perfectly serviceable equipment and they did also have the advantage of of fighting on their own ground.
Trouble is;they had lousey leadership,were conscripted,were demoralised and hadnt been fed or paid in weeks .Hardly an effective fighting force.If they had been determined and motivated ,they could possibly have and might still be holding off the Colation forces.

Just for a point on how a smal force who is determined can defeat a superior force,check out the Russo Finnish war of 1939 or the Greek repulsion of the Italian invasion in 1940.

Trouble also is your "heros" in Iraq are literally muderous rabble who are under control ,if the words be right ,of local fundamentalist warlords and other gangsters.Who are in a power struggle and would lynch each other at a moments notice.Who have access to lots of ordinance.Right,they might launch convoy attacks and take a district and possibly hold it.But there is no consolidation of gains or disipline to unite a proper resistance army.
Too many wanting to be the big cheif.

Again abit different to Nam,where the NVA and VC were under direct and functioning control of Hanoi appx 1000 klicks from the battlefield in another country with a backing country.Where there was a brilliant general Giap,who knew his stuff.His troops were motivated and disiplined, and had a statigec plan that could have gone on for generations. Does that sound like Iraq??Maybe in the strange world you inhabit. I really LOVE this fantasy you lot on the collective harbour that the US intends to stay in Iraq as an occupying army.Sorry comrades,it would be pointless.We will be going anyway.


Northern Eye,
Try for the Provo mutilation ,the history of the IRA,Tim Pat Coogan[belive that is where I read it].
But then how about all the kneecappings,breeze blockings,studded hurley beatings and general intimadation of your own people in the name of a "free" Ireland?
Well wee man,going from your love of the provos you are not one for changing anyway.What would your organization have done without the warmongering idiotic Yanks in the Seventies and Eighties?where would you have been able to get your Armalites and monies from your fundraising in New York?Plying on the old liberation of "dear oul Ireland"from the Tans and other such crap.
Ya know it is ironic.if we hadnt kicked up such a fuss about liberating Ireland in the 1920s,by the 1950s we would proably have had a 32 county free state,under "the winds of change "of mac Millian.
i really love your warped thinking if you were a voulenteer for the RA.You would follow orders like any GI in Iraq or soilder anywhere or you would get to face the "nutter squad" of the RA,after a kangroo court martial in a cow byre somwhere.At least in the US or any other army if an order goes against basic common humanity,you can disobey it ,be asked to be relived of that duty,and demand an inquiry. Which there will be anyway.The Mai Lai massacre in Nam would be a prime example.Do the provos have that basic tenet?

Going by your logic then Warrington and Enniskillen are as justifable in a war as carpet bombing civillians in Iraq? A outlawed terrorist organisation,renegades from their parent"army" ineptly detonate a bomb in a civillian area with an hour to move or defuse it ,cant?
At least I can understand a fuck up of a missile hitting a civillian bunker launched from 100 miles out to sea or from two miles up.Or friendly fire.But not to know where yo parked a car bomb or how to defuse it?But then again it is illegal to put military installations or equipment in civillian areas.Did anyone mention that to Saddo?Or the Brit army for that matter?
For your info carpet bombing went out in Nam.Where it was used to clear swaths of jungle.
If the US had used it in Bagdad or wherever you belive it was used there should be total and absolute destruction ala Berlin in 1945.
Where was it used?Same place they "carpet bombed " with naplam no doubt
.You might fool some ignorant schmucks with that emotive nonsense. But you show yourself up as a complete idiot to anyone with a basic knowledge of military matters.
Surprises me actually,would have thoughgt you anti war types would be up on this stuff,since you all favour"reasoned and logic debate"One point on that is to have your facts right and some knowledge what you rant about?

by David C. Tue Apr 06, 2004 00:10

Lone Gunman - congratulations on reading Tim Pat Coogan's history of the IRA!!! I know what a challenge it is for an American to read anything, much less a big thick book without pictures, and I applaud your perseverance. Keep it up!!!

The NVA and Viet Cong defeated the US in Vietnam (which was the site of the Vietnam war!). The US fought with everything at their disposable except nuclear weapons, to no avail. This is history - its not really a debatable point. The Americans have been crying and whining and moaning over what happened to them in Vietnam for a generation - but at least they generally accept that their loss in that war is a settled fact. Do you own a dictionary? If so, look up 'fact'. (also look up 'defeated', which you might have confused with 'invaded' - its an easy mistake for someone with an American-level education to make)

The heros of the Iraq resistance are Iraqis. They are supported, directly and indirectly, by millions and millions of other Iraqis, and by many other people around the world. They are fighting in their own country against invaders who have forcibly entered their county. They are 'the good guys', to use a cartoonishly American expression. And the good guys always win (as they won in Vietnam).

I don't think that the US intends to stay in Iraq as an occupying army. I think that the US wants to control Iraq, to 'manage' its government and its foreign policy and to keep huge bases there - it is very important to the world that this does not happen. Americans need to have their collective face forcibly rubbed in Iraqi shit, so that they can learn how to behave. Can you taste it yet, Lone Gunman? You will.

by Norther Eye Tue Apr 06, 2004 16:55

This is great stuff! America won the Vietnam war!

Anyway, carpet bombing did take place in Afghanistan and Iraq, its just that the US military like to tell their eternally stupid fans that its now called 'surgical bombing' a term which is only a myth as the reality on the ground is the exact same as when the term is called 'carpet bombing'.

Loner, your rant is far too crazy and rabid today to sift through, but come on man, I said I wasn't sticking up for the Ra's actions but they did give warnings, they did try and avoid civilian casualties unlike the warplane pilots who DO just bomb ramdomly and on notions and hunchs, slaughtering many, many thousands of innocent people including whole families. They're just assholes playing air cowboys, a bunch of ya-hoos and little god fantasists.

I can't really see how you can be opposed to the IRA because you don't like the violence they ingaged in but can support the Westren powers and their violence. Or maybe its because the IRA are the baddies because they're against the powers that be and if they were a legal army you would support them then. I don't think the violence was worth it but I do see why they fought: a foreign power was dominating their lives. The West on the other hand are the dominators ( and yes, people like Saddam and all also who for the most part are supported by the Western entity if they can look after the Wests interests ).

As for your problem with the Provos kneecapping hoods and rapists: they're the only police force round our way for a start. The PSNI let all the scum of the day run wild as long as they inform on republicans. The Provos are the only force keeping this place from anarchy. They just don't have jails to put the hoods in so have to improvise. Its brutal but in reality thats what has to happen to keep some form of law and order.

I've read that Tim Pat Coogan book also and don't remember that bit, but I'll take a wee duke in her again tonight and let you know if I find anything. The worst cases of mutilation I've ever heard of are what the Americans done to the bodies of dead Viet Cong like taking homes ears and all for souviers.

The NVA DID defeat America. They defeated the American people and their will to stay in Vietman ( where the US killed 3 million people as a result of actions such as carpet bombing being used to 'clear swaths of jungle' ) and the Iraqis will also break the American will to try and invade a country again in a hurry.

I can't understand how a country like America which has produced some of the 20th century's greatest and most accomplished people and how any Americans I know are the nicest people you could meet and are disgusted by their countrys forgein policy is run by a gang of slobbering morons like you who see the world as if its a GI Joe comic book.

Ah, the simpletons view of the world in black and white ( white world superior to black world ) freedom and slavery ( let us bomb you to freedom or we'll kill ya ) good and bad ( GWB - good. Anybody not like GWB - bad ). Except its this simpletons view that has causes events like September 11th to be able to manifest and the simpleton suffers as much as anyone.

by Drbinoche Tue Apr 06, 2004 20:42

The provos are only kneecapping rapists and drug dealers. Odd I thought it was them now dealing the drugs. Wait a minute isn't the provos the same guys who funded some of their operations through extortion rackets and drugs and other ILLEGAL activities, so they should just turn the guns on their own knees. Oh wait they shouldn't be doing that either, they signed the CeaseFire and shouldn't have guns. But I suppose if you support em you'll overlook any ILLEGAL activity they do.

The PSNI do not do their jobs. I would have to disagree with you on that case. I know quite alot of friends living in Belfast and the North and they find the PSNI to be a very effective and competent police force. Now maybe they are bad in your area, in which case I would doubt getting a bunch of murdering scumbags as a militia is not the smartest of ideas.

The provos, gave warnings. Thats odd, they never gave one for Warrington, or more accurately they didn't give one enough in advance. Hmmm, so if they rang and gave their coded message 30 seconds before the bombs ripped children to pieces it would be accepatble. Well by that rationale the US do give warnings, its called the whistle of a bomb dropping.

Carpet bombing. Its effective if used against the enemy soldiers, not easy to do in a city, hence why Baghdad is not mainly rubble right now. If you honestly think that the 'Carpet bombing' done in Afghanistan or Iraq was comparable to Vietnam, please do me a favour and provide me with photos of entire areas of Baghdad which are nothing but rubble now. I mean I want photos that look like London did during the Blitz. Thats what Carpet bombing is.

The average US pilot BTW drops laser guided precision bombs, which are fed off either a laser designator on the ground or off a spot marked by the plane. They cannot just drop em out over anywhere. The bomb itself has been redesigned since Kosovo to be able to strike 90% of the time in any weather condition and within 3 metres of the target. They are ten times more effective than the ones dropped in Iraq in 1991.

I do not agree with civilians getting caught up in war, I feel that the death of civilians is horrible and needless, but having served in the army and having been in similar situations I know why the Civvies are getting killed in Iraq. Its as much the Iraqis fault as it is the Americans. The Iraqis are probably firing from inside the protestors or from behind em and as such the troops can hardly sit back during incoming fire to wait until the road clears and its only the enemy left. But these kids are only 19-20 and when you are getting shot at and may be losing friends, thinking logically or without emotion is impossible.

Northern Eye I find it odd, how in a previous post you [Tim Collins] you state that war is bread from people not getting respect and justice and then you sit back and welcome America getting royally destroyed in Iraq. Do you not realise that by your own belief that will just lead to America wanting to stirke back some more. They have more weapons and by your volition do not seem to care who they kill, why are there not millions of dead Iraqis.

The sanctions against Iraq I agreed with coz it was the only thing that could really be done. I didn't see anyone giving any better ideas. Realistic ideas. Oh and the UN came up with that idea not just america, why should america be blamed for something that the UN came up with.

David C I have to ask do you honestly think it will do America any good to be humiliated. It may lead to them being humble for a short while, but overall it will just give the people in power in America the reason to produce more powerful and destructive weapons. It leaves America feeling bruised and raw and then 20 years from now, they still feel bad, have bigger shit and really couldn't care who gets in their way.

The only way I see Iraq getting better is: role on June 30th. Amierca hands over power and then allow the Iraqi people to sort it out amongst themselves. If it means Civil war then so be it, but by the Anti-War people stance, that would also mean no one can interfere in the battle and if a million innocent people die then the only people responsible are the people who didn't want the west getting involved.

This git Sadr by the way, he is bad news. He has a big fucking chip on his shoulder and he intends on cashing it in at the expense of others. I don't see him out with the protestors daily. He is another fucking politician. Also he speaks for some of the Iraqi people, but not all of em, should he be in charge if he only speaks for a proportion of the country. Thats hardly fair on the others. Especially the Sunni and Kurds, who he fucking hates.

by Kieran Tue Apr 06, 2004 21:18

I was infuriated at the butchering of those four Americans,but then I gained my composure and realized that those who did this barbaric act were "innocent civilians".

by PHuq Hedd Tue Apr 06, 2004 21:22

The "innocent civilians" were the four Americans who just happened to have military backgrounds. Don't you listen to the news?

by Northern Eye Tue Apr 06, 2004 21:39

Right, war is breed from people not being respected. So why the fuck do you think these Iraqis are attacking the Americans who invaded their country, bombed their cities and support their hated enemy, Israel? Do you want them to respect America? I'm just being realistic here. Do you want the Iraqis to lie down? Alright, I know you do, but do you honestly think they will? Deal in the real world, not the way you want it to be. If America had have respected the Iraqis and not invaded their country then they woundn't have been attacked by any Iraqis. The Iraqis aren't in America attacking the people there.Respect works both ways. America attacked first for very dubious reasons indeed ( and the Iraqis aren't stupid you know ) so while I don't want to see them carted home by the bucket load from Iraq its the only way to learn those naughty children. No matter what you think, humilliation will learn them a lesson. If they had have won in Vietnam do you not think millions more would have perished around the glode through American mis-adventures. The NVA learned the generation of half-wit warmongers in America during their time and hopefully the Iraqis will learn this generation. Its awful, but thats just the way. This Arab hate towards America is understandable and I can see why September 11th happened. Only by America changing its foreign policy and respecting the Arab world, instead of attacking it and using it for oil, will that massive hate have any chance to die and countless wars and murders be averted. America is the aggressor here. They did start it. Those sanctions were at Americas behest and did cause the deaths of around 1 million Iraqi children ( far outnumbering even Saddams grisly total ), America keeps sending Israel the arms to pile up the Palestinian graves, America still has bases on the Muslims sacred soil under invite from a fat corrupt regieme, America still is one arrogant fat motherfucker in the World where 4% of the total global population control 25% of the total worlds wealth and America is going to be attacked and again and again ( unless this is sorted out by respecting the arab world ) which will only, I know, lead to America attacking more and more countries itself, but thats reality, thats the vicious circle America has created. The balls in Americas court. It has to wake up and decide how to bring this to an end. The Arabs have nothing to lose and everything to gain. America has everything to lose if it keeps on the way its going.

As for the Provos being drug dealers. Rubbish. No member of the mainstream republican movement has ever been convicted of anything remotely connected to drug dealing. Don't believe the propaganda. I remember when some Provisional members from the town here tried to start the oul dealing a couple of years ago and one was found in Crossmaglen with seven bullet holes in him ( none fatal but ) and the others are still on the run. Believe me when I say the Provos here are not hoods or anything like it. I'd say if they were because I know theres a lot of corrupt members in it too, but hey, if we didn't have a bastard orange police force who mostly don't care about fenian cars been stolen or neighbourhoods destroyed ( although I'll readily admit that theres lots of good cops in it too ) then there woundn't be any need for kneecappings and the like. But there ya go, thats what happens in vaccum.

by David C. Tue Apr 06, 2004 23:03

The world will be safer and America will be safer if America is defeated and humiliated in Iraq. They will not "produce more powerful and destructive weapons", because its not lack of weapons that's defeating them - its lack of respect, lack of understanding, lack of intelligence (both kinds), etc A bruised and raw America is a well-behaved America, which is good for everyone.

About June 30th. What do you think will happen if America "hands over sovereignty"? Will all the troops leave? Will a truly representative Iraqi government have the power to demand that the Americans leave, or to indict George Bush for war crimes? Can they sign the International Criminal Court agreement? Can they decide to not sell their oil to the US? If US troops remain, will they be subject to Iraqi law? June 30th is a very, very thin fig leaf intended to protect the republicans in the upcoming elections. The kind of 'sovereignty' to be handed over is so obviously phony that only very, very stupid moronic people (like Americans) would consider it to be in any way significant. The rest of the world will see it clearly for what it is and will add it to the huge pile of American hypocrisy and bullshit. The US should announce that it is completely and totally withdrawing all of its troops from Iraq on June 30th, and then pay the UN for peacekeeping duties until things settle down.

Of course Sadr has a big chip on his shoulder - he's Iraqi and his country has been invaded. He's kept quiet for a year in order to give the Americans a chance to show that they would behave. They didn't behave.

The kids who took part in the mutilation of the bodies of the American mercenaries ARE innocent civilians. What kind of punishment do you think 'desecrating a corpse' carries in Ireland or in the US? But the Americans are now going door to door in Fallujah with photos from the TV coverage, capturing and killing these kids. That's the kind of people they are.

by Drbinoche Tue Apr 06, 2004 23:25

OK fine I will accept that America is at fault, but c'mon, you honestly believe that the Arab world has nothing to lose at the moment. Believe me if the Arabs think they are fucked at the moment, how do you think they will get on if a major war breaks outin Middle Eastern countries. Awar which could quite easily happen. They have the Sunnis, who don't really like the Shi'ites, but they both hate the Kurds just as much, then the Kuwaitis are kinda hated. The Saud family are pretty hated, so overall you have a bunch of different groups who all believe basically in the same god, but are willing to fuck each other over again and again just to prove who is right. They control alarge piece of Oil, that is unfortunately essential to the rest of the world. That is unless some country really starts to take some smart advice and start looking at long term benefits of recycling. Germany is quite good at that, but Germany does not want to get involved in alot of things right now. Too busy building a very respectable financial empire.

Now the Americans are being very disrespectful to the Iraqis, but lets just get back to how this started at what point and at what date did the American soldiers, shoot dead four Iraqis, just doing their job, say Police men, set them on fire and string em up from the nearest bridge. Get local kids and peopleto spit on and stab the already dead body. What benefit did that do to the Iraqis. NOTHING. They were bad mouthed by their own people who said quite frankly that they broke Islamic laws. Lets just say America did not invade Iraq back in 2003, they left Saddam as he was, where are the Iraqi people now??? They are getting fucked again and again by a mass-murdering scumbag. They have no ability to protect themselves coz the Sanctions are still in place, but the sanctions won't be removed until Saddam is gone. He won't go, coz with the sanctions in place he maintains his luxury and the Iraqis cannot resist him. So we have a vicious circle. So they lift the sanctions and Saddam decides to start importing more of his evil little pieces of fun again. OK the sanctions are getting through but the people are still not getting what they need, coz Saddam knows what to do to keep people docile. Hes got his hands on some more fun, and he decides to invade Kuwait again or maybe Iran or fuck it, he decides to really mess it up and aims at Israel. He invades Kuwait and the world has to get involved again as Kuwait is a sovereign state. He invades Iran and sparks that fun off again. He aims and Israel and Israel fulfills itspromise and nukes the bastard. Either way the Iraqi people are gonna get fucked again and again.

The Americans invading I was in favour of. Their continued occupation, I am not in favour of. I appreciate they are staying, but I think they shold have brought in the UN and made the UN force up of Muslim country troops only. But that did not happen. Instead the American are staying until June 30th and then probably for at least 6 months after that. More likely longer but how and ever, so the Iraqis decide to get uppity and follow this cleric who has no training in leadership and whats more does not speak for a proportion of the population. So now American cannot respect him cozto respect him is to hand him power, but they can't respect the others by doing such. So America sits back and does what it does best. It takes a beating and at home as the bodies come back the Anti-Governmental feelings grow and eventually so do the Anti-Islamic feelings.

So what would I suggest. I would suggest that the Iraqis try to work with them, and then start working when they can actually gain from it. Coz right now even if they were to repel America tomorrow they are still gonna be fucked for at least another 5 years. Would you rather have America in Iraq, or would you rather have Iraq in all out Civil War.

As for the Provos dealing drugs:
http://www.ukcia.org/news/shownewsarticle.php?articleid=592. That site should tell you alittle of how the Provos were behind Drug dealing in the aspect that while on their cease fire in 1998 they were willing to turn a blind eye to drug dealing in the area, providing they got their cut of the profits. Odd, it aids to the fact that the IRA if they are so against Drugs why are they not dealing anybody with possession of it. They definitely know who has what. Why are there not drug dealers shot nightly. Or maybe they are just shooting the guys who don't pay em. Either way, you asked how Icould be against the IRA and not the US army. I suppose the main reason is while the US Army have certainly done some questionable things in the past, they have never tried tokill me and my friends, while we are out doing our job. Something your beloved Ra did on many occassion during the late 70s, early 80s. While these lovely no drugs guys were out doing their best to murder british personnel and Irish Secuirty forces as well, they were having great fun in attempting tomurder my friends and I. I am happy alot of the East Armagh brigade got to experience what they did, its just a pity not more of em got to experience the fine pain of a bullet in the face. You see, the Provos, the Real IRA, the CIRA are pretty much just a bunch of spoiled little bastards who thought they knew best and in the same time, managed to fuck our country quite alot. You say that the Provos gave warnings, well where was the one for Warrington, and some of the other beautiful attrocities they have pulled off???

by Northern Eye Tue Apr 06, 2004 23:54

Can anyone tell me why elections haven't happend yet in Afghanistan? I've heard some reports that they are to be held in September. Why did it take so long and does anyone really think that they will be held at all if the States dosen't like the way the results are likely to turn out? The world seems to have forgotten about that place.



Just seen on the teletext there:

-26 people, including women and children, have died after American gunships fired rockets into houses in Fallujah( Likely to lead to less Americans being dragged round the streets or more? You decide).

-15 protesters shot dead by British army ( remind you of anything?). No British army dead.

-15 shot dead by Italian troops. No Italian dead.

-'Significant' number of US troops killed in fierce fire fight. ( now found out that number is 'at least' 12 bringing the total number of US dead to 18 for the day and counting ).

-Reports that rival Shia and Sunni resistence fighters have joined to battle the hated US occupation force.


These are the results of all the Drbinoche's and Righteous Gits having power. But what goes around comes around, and America will just have to be chastised again to learn it respect for other people.

by Northern Eye Wed Apr 07, 2004 04:03

What the fuck was that? No evidence at all did I see there that the Ra were taking bribes from these fellows. Believe me, if they had asked for payments from Brendan 'Bap' Campbell he would have paid up to stay alive. The Provos threatened his life and ordered him out of Ireland for massive involvement with loyalists and drug dealing rather than just shoot him straight away because of the political situation and he very sensibly replied by throwing a few Russian made hand-grenades at the Sinn Fein HQ in Belfast. That meant the Ra had to take him out and if you remember correctly his killing was one of two ( the other being a loyalist overlord ) that got Sinn Fein threw out of talks at that time, so I don't see that the Ra were willing to accept those consequences just for a few unpaid backhanders.

Why are they not shooting drug dealers every night? Well, how do you know that half those people getting kneecapped aren't drug dealers? They can't go round shooting them dead because of the political implications. In this town the drug dealers have to go and live in front of the police station for protection from any Provo squads or in Loyalist areas were they're under protection from the LVF and all as its they who they get the drugs off anyway. And as for why there are still drugs floating around Catholic areas - has any country in the world, no matter how genuinely hard they've tried, ever been able to stop them when the demand is over-whelming? If the Ra were involved in shit like drugs Sinn Fein would be ruined, totally ruined. I don't think they'd risk it to tell you the truth. If you're looking big time money gangsters look no farther than your heros that control the White House and who send idiots like you out to die for their interests all the time.


You say the IRA were busy trying to kill you and your silly wee mates in Dads Army? Thats absolutely insanely funny! The Provos were under specific orders never to touch the Free State forces unless fired on first and if they were attemping a campaign against you people they would planted bombs and fired rockets. You and your buffoon mates were just living a fantasy out that you were in a war zone like all children playing soldiers do.

Your logic on all Iraqi points is completey non-existent and if America hadn't invaded that country their mercenaries woundn't have been there in the first place to get dragged round. Its a bit like someone diving into a pool of sharks and complaining when he gets his legs bit clean aff - if he wasn't so stupid as to dive in there in the first place and expect to be welcomed by the sharks he would have kept the dam legs and no worries.

by Leon Wed Apr 07, 2004 11:07

we don't have to rely on what we've been told about Islam. Pick up a copy of the Friday News; it's ridiculous. We have smashed our theocracy in Ireland and should oppose it all over the world.

many people say that all religions are valuble and all should be respected.

The truth is none are valuble and none should be respected.

Anyway obviously Omar was superior to Ali,

by Let's not forget Wed Apr 07, 2004 11:39

In case anyone forgets, plenty of this type of butchering want on in the so-called civilised West.

Not too long ago, it was a regular ocurrence in parts of the USA, for the KKK to hunt down blacks and butcher them and burn them alive. And all for a Saturday nights entertainment.

by Fergal Wed Apr 07, 2004 11:45

Butchering peope is wrong in any context, but sadly has happened and continues to happen all over the worlds. However, we get nowhere by just trotting out "what about..." every time something like this happens. This is as bad as Sinn Fein in the early 90's with their "well, I condemn all terrorism......" pseudo-condemnations of IRA atrocities. This just leads to the argument that if everyone is guilty, then nobody is.

by Leon Wed Apr 07, 2004 12:10

Looking at these guys backgrounds it 'seems obvious' that they were mercenaries. Though that doesn't mean much.

So what are the advantages of using chaps like this for the US Govt. Isn't it problematic. They won't have the same equipment as soldiers, they won't be in the command structure, they won't be subject to discipline in the same way.

Also what is the daily rate?

by Terry Wed Apr 07, 2004 14:44

It appears that when the enemy carries out atrocities, that they are atrocities, but will we see the same media outpouring of indignation now with the current 'operation' going on this very minute in Fallujah.

As reported from: http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/apr2004/iraq-a07.shtml

"Both the Shiite slums of Baghdad’s Sadr City and the largely Sunni population of Fallujah have been hit with massive firepower from helicopter gunships, tanks and artillery. The casualties include women and children slain by 50-caliber bullets crashing through the walls and doors of their homes. Hospitals have been shelled as well as ambulances. In one case, US forces fired on an ambulance carrying a wounded pregnant woman to the hospital, killing both the woman and her unborn child.

The operation conducted by US Marines in Fallujah has unfolded under a veil of secrecy, with the media barred from the scene. The US military has subjected this town of 500,000 to a siege, barricading all roads in and out. Food deliveries have been halted and people prevented from going to work. Access to Fallujah’s main hospital, which is situated across the Euphrates River, has been cut off. A smaller private hospital inside the city has been shelled by tanks and helicopters.

The correspondent from Aljazeera, one of the only sources reporting from the besieged city, witnessed a burning car outside the hospital with the body of the driver still inside. He also reported that the residential neighborhood of Golan had been struck by missiles and cluster bombs, with a number of houses destroyed"

-- This is absolute disgrace and totally repugnant as were the original killings. But there is no doubt tthat it reveals the true ugly face of the system in power in each of the 'coalition' countries.

by northern eye Wed Apr 07, 2004 15:26

Yup, and just after seeing a report that a US helicopter has fired rockets at a mosque in Fallujah and slaughted at least 40 people. America, prepare to reap what you sow.

by Anti-idiotarian Wed Apr 07, 2004 15:34

"America, prepare to reap what you sow" - Not unlike what the pro-war americans said after Sept 11.

I can almost hear you rubbing your hands together with anticipation. Obviously you're not anti war - you're pro-war, so long as its the "bad guys" who get killed. That attitude is just a mirror image of Bush's.

by Northern Eye Wed Apr 07, 2004 15:51

No, I'm totally anti-war but also a realist. I don't want to see American civillians dead but I know it will happen again and again and again because of the brutal actions of its aggressor government.I would like to see conflicts and hates sorted out by talking but face it mate - thats just a hippy dream and not all people think that that you know. I live in the real world and know that America will have to face dire consequences for its disgusting actions so therefore: America prepare to reap what you sow.

by Anti-idiotarian Wed Apr 07, 2004 16:03

Saying that its a tough world, and war is war would be fair enough if it were applied evenly, but it's not. "Saddam, reap what you sow" is more likely to be heard from the right, but never heard from the left. Likewise "Suicide bombers, reap what you sow". This isn't about principle, its about taking sides.

I think it's pointless to force people, a la Bush, to take sides, but if I had to, I'd choose the relatively (I emphasise "relatively") secular and democratic US any day of the week. But I don't have to choose, so I can criticise anyone I want, if I feel such criticism is merited. "Popular Front" thinking, where you keep your mouth shut, for fear of giving comfort to the enemy, is what led to people defending Stalin, despite knowing full well that he was a despot.

by Northern Eye Wed Apr 07, 2004 18:58

Oh I do think its about principle rather than taking sides. I'll readily admit that Saddam was a whore of the highest order but so too is the American entity. The American entity invaded a country they saw as a great opportunity to acheive a great many dubious goals. The Americans are totally in the wrong, a bit like Hitler invading Russia and telling the Russians he was there to free them from tyranny, and therefore I take the side of the Iraqi resistence just like I would have taken the side of the Soviets during WW2. Both of them are/were far from perfect but both of them are/were mostly made up of ordinary people who want to defend themselves from a terrible bundle of bastards at the end of the day. I wish the world wasn't like this but it is. No point sitting on the fence ringing your hands and saying 'would it not be great if we could all get on' and 'sure one sides as bad the other'.

I can see the majority of Iraq, including the armed forces, rising up now in response to Americas arrogance and giving the Bush Junta a bloody good lesson, and thus saving millions of lives round the world in the process, because if everything had have gone according to the US plan for Iraq then we'd next see the emperial bastards in Iran, Syria and so on, all while Israel rubs it filthy hands.

by Anti-Idiotarian Wed Apr 07, 2004 19:16

I don't think one side's as bad as the other, I think we draw the dividing line in the wrong place. One one side are the fundamentalists who think they've got it all wortked out and therefore have the right to push us around for our own good. Saddam, Bush, Al-Quaeda, Islamic Fundamentalists,the SWP and our own government are all on this side of the line. People with minds of their own, who care about people, not doctrine, are on the other.
So surely the people to support are the ones trying to rebuild Iraq. If the handover of power doesn't come as promised - then an uprising might be justified. Right now, the US have been given a golden excuse not to hand it over...

When push comes to shove, one does have to hop down off the fence, but this is only a soddin' discussion board. We do in fact have the luxury of looking at things objectively, rather than in the light of necessity. The Iraqis will get along (whether that be badly or well) irrespective of what you and I and the rest of this board waffle about.

by Kieran Wed Apr 07, 2004 22:09

Hi PHuq hedd,
So they WERE in the American military-that justifies butchering them. I guess if somebody WAS in the Irish Republican Army, they can be butchered also.

by David C. Wed Apr 07, 2004 22:13

Richard Clarke - the former Bush administration anti-terrorism chief - says in his book that if Osama Bin Laden had been given control of american foreign policy in 2002, he couldn't have done any more damage to the fight against terrorism than George Bush has done.

Again - this is the former Bush administration anti-terrorism chief saying this.

Iraq is a huge triumph for Al Qaida. The americans will pay for it in blood and body parts for generations. It is beyond a mistake.

by Drbinoche Wed Apr 07, 2004 22:52

"What the fuck was that? No evidence at all did I see there that the Ra were taking bribes from these fellows. Believe me, if they had asked for payments from Brendan 'Bap' Campbell he would have paid up to stay alive. The Provos threatened his life and ordered him out of Ireland for massive involvement with loyalists and drug dealing rather than just shoot him straight away because of the political situation and he very sensibly replied by throwing a few Russian made hand-grenades at the Sinn Fein HQ in Belfast. That meant the Ra had to take him out and if you remember correctly his killing was one of two ( the other being a loyalist overlord ) that got Sinn Fein threw out of talks at that time, so I don't see that the Ra were willing to accept those consequences just for a few unpaid backhanders." The Ra had to take him out, really I was totally unaware that policing the North fell under the IRAs mandate. I always thought blowing up Children and murdering people for no good reason was the only mandate they had. Ill tell you what I will drop the whole Drug-Dealing thing now, if you Condemn the Warrington bombs and anytime the IRA have murdered innocent people. I mean if you don't think they should have done it then you should condemn it. Or else you are as bad. Ill start the ball rolling if you want. I condemn the American and Coalition Forces actions which have led to the unfortunate loss of innocent life. Now your turn.

"Why are they not shooting drug dealers every night? Well, how do you know that half those people getting kneecapped aren't drug dealers? They can't go round shooting them dead because of the political implications. In this town the drug dealers have to go and live in front of the police station for protection from any Provo squads or in Loyalist areas were they're under protection from the LVF and all as its they who they get the drugs off anyway. And as for why there are still drugs floating around Catholic areas - has any country in the world, no matter how genuinely hard they've tried, ever been able to stop them when the demand is over-whelming? If the Ra were involved in shit like drugs Sinn Fein would be ruined, totally ruined. I don't think they'd risk it to tell you the truth. If you're looking big time money gangsters look no farther than your heros that control the White House and who send idiots like you out to die for their interests all the time."
The guys in the white house are certainly not heroes ofmine. I believe in the soldiers who are fighting and dying in Iraq. I have never bought into the 'official reasons' of why Iraq was invaded, but I did agree with the invasion as I knew they would get rid of Iraq and maybe make things better in Iraq. At the moment my hopes are wrong, but maybe they will happen. Also Iam not there in Iraq, NEITHER are you or the majority of people who post here and assuch, we are working off information that could be doctored or fabricated. As such it is true everything we hear should be treated with some trepidation, but having spoken to a few friends andpeople who have fought in Iraq, I would be more willing to take their words for it.


"You say the IRA were busy trying to kill you and your silly wee mates in Dads Army? Thats absolutely insanely funny! The Provos were under specific orders never to touch the Free State forces unless fired on first and if they were attemping a campaign against you people they would planted bombs and fired rockets. You and your buffoon mates were just living a fantasy out that you were in a war zone like all children playing soldiers do."
Wow I was totally unaware that you hold so much contempt for the Country you wish to join that you are willing to call our national Army 'a dads army', well thats kind of you. Do you know anyone who has ever served in the Irish Army, and I mean the Official Irish Army and not your piss ass IRA fake ILLEGAL army. Maybe you'd prefer them to become the Official army, problem is they have no discipline and would not last 15 seconds in a proper Army outfit. If you wanna know of when your beloved army have fired without warning, maybe you should ask Garda McCabe, who did not even get to reach for his weapon, before your brave young ladspumped bullets from an AK47 into him for just doing his job and protecting the money from a bunch of thugs. They fired on us every once in a while. The odd sniper shot at our checkpoint, just to piss us off, but the fact is a Ricochet is just as deadly as any other bullet.

"Your logic on all Iraqi points is completey non-existent and if America hadn't invaded that country their mercenaries woundn't have been there in the first place to get dragged round." Could you actually show me where these people are considered Mercenaries under INTERNATIONAL LAW. I believe they are considered Civilian Security Units because they work for a company that is under the jurisdiction of a country. Unlike Mercenaries who are hired by someone to fight their war and are prosecutable by any court. So technically I can argue that the ISM are mercenaries. They fulfill the criteria to be called Mercenaries. The four guys who died in Fallujah are not mercenaries as they do not fulfill the criteria under international law.

by Northern Eye Thu Apr 08, 2004 19:27

Right. Do condemn any attacks if warning not given or explosions are caused recklessly in civillian area. Also condemn any attacks where warning cannot be given to civillians or where explosions are caused recklessly or in civillian area ie. attacks from air. Also condemn any situation which is likey to lead to bombs exploding from ground or from air ie: unwarrented invasion of country or occupation of country or part of country. Also condemn as obscene country going into other country and bombing and killing innocent people to 'free' them and condemn any moron who coundn't see the chaos this would cause.

Do condemn killing of Garda McCabe.

You have to admit that the Irish Army are a great big joke north and south. Everyone I know thinks of them as a dads army type of comedy troop, full of silly wee boys who never grew up and like to pretend they're playing war games. Face it, you served the Irish people for comic effect only. Thank you, you and all your wee mates, who have given such joy and laughter to all.

Sure what could the Ra have done then? Phone up the RUC and told them about it? You're some craic.

ISM don't have guns. Fallujah Four had guns, working for big bucks in war zone. Call them what you will. I like mercenaries.

by falco Wed May 05, 2004 05:29 afd at yahoo dot com 4325 e. sdlkjfsj 889-999-0099

Imperialist...... that would mean that the US wants Iraq and plan to stay indefinitely. I don't think the people of US will sit for that. Even a Conservative like me will not sit for that. Interesting how the pot calls the kettle black...I don't think Saddam gave a rip if he staid in Kuwait or Iran and did what he wanted. I don't think Saddam gave a rip when he gased his own people.... We will see.

The Koran: Thank you my muslim brothers for proving my point. The liberal left, especially Hollywood, media and politicians don't believe and don't want to believe that my muslim brothers have the intent, which they believe is Allah's dictate, to make the earth muslim for Allah, until the pig dies and Allah comes back...right? Muslims sometimes when caught in the spot light will lie that jihad is spiritual struggle, but in reality is the logical consequence of following the Koran to the T, which is to convert heathens (Christians/Jews/Hindus/athiest etc..) into muslims by the mouth, pen or sword.

Peace....sounds ironic....hopefully your good out weighs your bad or take the third...route...blow yourself up... The world will wake up and see that all the hot spots before 9/11 and after 9/11 is due to Muslim fanatics living the Koran to the logical conclusion......

by A Realist Wed Oct 13, 2004 08:32

To all the "muslim brothers" that are posting. I know many muslims feel that the United States is trying to "conquer" Islam. However, countries like Syria, Iran, Afghanistan, and other middile eastern countrys are simpley incapaple of takeing responsibility for there actions. In America, at least we take responsibility for our scandels. we don't say, oh well, Allah made me do it, or some shit like that. And muslims say that its the satan west that made them poor. Shoot, maybe they should stop feeling sorry for themselves and start taking control of there lives and there country. In america we are able to get results out of ideas. We envisioned liberty and freedom, and we made the United States. Muslims are unable to do that without america's help. and for that, they don't deserve to complain about how the help is given

by viceversa Wed Oct 13, 2004 13:07

"In America, at least we take responsibility for our scandels. we don't say, oh well, Allah made me do it, or some shit like that"

No, in the west we claim to do things in the name of Christ. Bush is one example of someone in league with Christian fundamentalists. Reagan and his cronies also looked forward to a conflagration in which the 'rightous' would be instantly wafted up to heaven. And Tony Blair also seems to have some bizarre religious committment to this war.
Then there is our own Ian Paisley, and the Orange Order.......

by airblue - none Fri Dec 23, 2005 18:34 jbiggs at dlz dot com

Who cares!

by kintama Fri Dec 23, 2005 19:02

Quite a few people including myself care actually.
An interesting comment attributed in one of the earliest posts on this thread to a US colonel vowing revenge on the people of Fallujah. The US does revenge very well even Carlsberg could nt have arranged the level of destruction visited on the city by the 'liberators'.