British Police find eight bags of fertilizer

by reallllly Tue Mar 30, 2004 14:45

So eight bags of lovely nitrate rich farming products were found, in truth nothing suspicious there. Of course, and correct me if im wrong, if these people werent farmers then it is a bit suspicious. Its circumstantial and i know there is no law against owning fertiliser but at the same time its just a teeny bit suspicious that all these people had fertiliser. In order to quell my cynicism i would be most appreciative if you could supply a reasonable explanation for having bags of fertiliser, what size were the bags, was it only bonsai fertiliser, was it chemical or bags of dung. Your posting says nothing really, it lacks enough details to instil a sense of moral outrage in me. its so vague it sounds like a misinformed reactionary statement.

by Muhammed Tal Wat Ateel Tue Mar 30, 2004 19:00

Who did you expect? the authorities always blame Muslims!
Several UK Citizens of Pakistani origin arrested with over 1000 lbs of ammonium nitrate
LONDON, March 30 — British anti-terrorism police swept through London and other parts of Southeastern England today arresting eight people suspected of preparing a terrorist attack and confiscating about 1,000 pounds of ammonium nitrate fertilizer, the key ingredient in making explosives.


In an unusual press conference called to alert the public, Peter Clarke, chief of the anti-terrorist branch of the London metropolitan police and national anti-terrorism coordinator, said the eight men "have been arrested on suspicion of being concerned in the commission, preparation or instigation of acts of terrorism."

He did not disclose any information about the affiliation of those arrested with known terrorist organizations. But Mr. Clarke said the operation "is not linked to either Irish Republican terrorism or to the recent attack in Madrid."

At this early stage, senior police officials seemed reluctant to draw a possible connection between this morning's arrests and known terrorist organizations such as Al Qaeda, although he said the arrests arose from investigations into "international" terrorism activity.

Some 700 officers participated in dawn raids, including one at a commercial storage facility in West London, where police said they found a half ton of ammonium nitrate fertilizer. One police official who was not identified told the BBC that the facility had been under surveillance for weeks.

Mr. Clarke said the raids were "part of continuing and extensive inquiries by police and the security service into alleged international terrorism activity and I must stress that the threat from terrorism remains very real." As a note of warning, he added, "The public must remain watchful and alert."

In recent weeks, Eliza Manningham-Buller, the head of the M.I.5 domestic intelligence agency, and Sir John Stevens, head of the London police force, have warned that a major terrorist attack in Britain is inevitable. The initial focus in trying to thwart such an attack has been to beef up security on subways, trains, stations and airports.

Last week, police officers carrying machine guns appeared around key buildings in central London. An advertisement campaign to alert subway riders to suspicious bags left on trains or in stations has also been launched.

The BBC reported that all of the men arrested were British nationals of Pakistani origin. Mr. Clarke said their ages were between 17 and 32. He also said that British officials were holding discussions with leaders of the Muslim community to "address any concerns they may have."

Mr. Clarke said part of the investigative focus will be on the "purchase, storage and intended use" of the ammonium nitrate discovered in the storage facility near the center of London.

"This is a complex and protracted investigation, which will be detailed, very thorough and take some time to complete," he said.

by terrorists are dangerous Tue Mar 30, 2004 19:14

terrorists are all killers it doesnt matter what religion they are. proper practicing muslims dont believe in violence. and they are not blaming muslims.

by Terry Tue Mar 30, 2004 20:21

So true,

But are States that wage wars using massive armies and enormous amounts of weapons and that kill 10s of 1000s of people, and injure probably 20 times more; -what are they?

It is a well known fact that the vast majority of terrorism is backed by States and governments.

And indeed it kind of makes sense since a State is not a human entity, it is a quasi legal entity lacking any emotion and only knows logic. I guess that's why it consistenly lies, deceives, corrupts, intimidates and of course wages wars and sponsors terrorism.

States use terrorism to terrorize and distract the population. They also use it to create an atmosphere that in every case results in them gaining executive powers and curbing ciivil liberties.

As Gene Wheaton (former CIA officer) observed:
"Every major Middle-Eastern terrorist organization is under surveillance and control of the intelligence agencies in the U.S. None of these guys move around as freely as they'd like you to think."

Since the end of the Cold War, Western governments have been busy looking around for new enemies and have created them out of the monsters they previously sponsored such as the creation of Al-Qaeda from the Mujahadeen fighters from the Soviet-Afghan war into which the CIA and other government poured several billion dollars via Pakistani intelligence during the late 80s/early 90s.

Creation and use of terrorism, otherwise known as low-intensity conflict and known as the Third Way from the book [The Third Option: An Expert's Provocative Report on an American View of Counterinsurgency Operations. by Theodore Shackley -circa 1970s], is common. Shackley was a top ranking CIA figure in the 60s and 70s.

Shackley was one of the original proponents of "low intensity conflict," which manifested itself as the Phoenix Program in Vietnam (that resulted in the assassination of over 200,000 people), and as the infamous death squads in South and Central America. Shackley euphemistically describes this concept as "the third option."

He said: 'Senior intelligence officers like myself, who had experience in paramilitary operations, have always insisted that the United States should also consider the third option: the use of guerrilla warfare, counter-insurgency techniques and covert action to achieve policy goals.… Political warfare is very often the stitch in time that eliminates bloodier and more costly alternatives.'

Gene Wheaton writes that (and remember this was pre-9/11 when he discussed this):
The Third Option is not to have peace in the world, and not to have a full-scale world war. Instead, they wanted to cause worldwide instability, chaos and civil unrest in order to manipulate and control people and governments, including the United States; thus the creation of the domestic terrorist threat.

He further goes on to state what has been known for centuries by the so-called "enlightened ones" — the Illuminati, the Masons, the Rhodes Round Table, and their successors: the CFR, the Bilderbergers, and the Trilateral Commission — that out of chaos will come order (Ordo Ab Chao. )[1229]

Otherwise known as the "Hegelian Principle," this is the technique by which a normally repugnant idea (in this case a totalitarian police-state) is offered as the only viable solution to a intractable problem (in this case domestic terrorism), deliberately engineered by the state itself. As New American editor William Jasper notes:

…history is replete with examples of ruthless and corrupt politicians who have shamelessly exploited and manipulated tragic events and the criminal acts of a few to advance their own lust for power. In cases too numerous to mention, tyrants and aspiring despots have gone even further, engaging agents provocateurs to carry out assassinations, foment riots and rebellion, precipitate financial panics, attempt palace coups, feign foreign invasion, initiate acts of terrorism, and perform other infamous acts — all for the purpose of establishing a mass psychology of fear, a sense of "crisis," of imminent danger requiring the government to suspend normal liberties and seize vast new powers to deal with the "emergency."

Hitler came to power in precisely this manner, by burning down the German Parliament, the Reichstag, then blaming it on his enemies — in this case, the Communists. He then passed the Enabling Act (a form of anti-terrorism bill) for the "protection of the people and the state."

by delighted Tue Mar 30, 2004 20:29

so if you are so against 'state terrorism' then you'll be against non state terrorism aswell and be delighted that the london met arrested these terrorists with half a ton of fertiliser. fertiliser as we well know in this country is often used by terrorists as an explosive.

Nice to get them before they pull off another Madrid.

God knows how many they'd have killed

by Feccdiss Tue Mar 30, 2004 21:42

They haven't been hung (yet).

Get over it.

by Maybe Wed Mar 31, 2004 01:08

Terry mentioned the "Hegelian Principle" The Hegelian Principle was used here in Ireland, to guarantee the passage of an amendment to the Offences Against The State Act. I think the date was 1st December 1972. Bombs were exploded outside Liberty Hall and in Sackville Place. I know a couple of bus workers were killed by the Sackville Place one. Not sure what casualties resulted from the Liberty Hall one.
People generally believed at the time that it was carried out by the SAS or loyalists. Maybe it is time to consider another possibility, that the culprits may have been part of the "Irish Defence Forces". ??

by -- Wed Mar 31, 2004 09:51

Ever hear such crap ? Fertilizer is fertilizer until it is crushed and mixed with crushed sugar and diesel. This is a long and difficult process as the cops in Donegal can tell you.

What absolute propaganda to try and fit these young lads up with only a few bags of fertilizer.

Where was the booster tube set? Where were they crushing the AnFo ? Where were they going to reduce the Ammonia Nitrate from the raw manure - a process of boiling small amounts of fetilizer to extract the more potent elements ? Where was the vehicle ? Where was the sugar? Where was the diesel ? Where were the lunch boxes for the detonator ? Where is the plastic explosive to "lace" and help detonate the bomb ? Where was the target? Which one of the men had traces of any explosive on him? (none)

The British liars are just trying to spin a nice juicy story to fit in with their Crusade. May God destroy them!

by kokomero Wed Mar 31, 2004 10:05

an attempted bombing using Ammonium Nitrate was foiled when the police moved in on a group of locals who were grinding and preparing the main charge for experts who were to fly in.

The assembly of the materials by inexperienced locals suggests that Al Quaeda have relatively few experts capable of actually capable of putting together such a bomb and have to spread them thinly to achieve a result.

Logic would dictate that the security focus be on these individuals and not a bunch of inexperienced wannabes who can be easily replaced!

This is however not the case and given the cost of surveillance of large numbers of low-level operators the approach of the British security apparatus would appear to be either deeply flawed in the sense that they prefer to catch people with a few bags of 10:10:20 rather than wait for the serious operators to jet in, or equally flawed in that political pressure has led them to spring the trap early in order to generate a propaganda coup for Blair who badly needs to be seen to be doing something.

In either case the British media should be asking serious questions about the "value" of this operation and the underlying motivations for it!

by Kevin Turvey - Free the People Wed Mar 31, 2004 14:14 kturvey at freethepeople dot org

It's terrible how in BLIAR's England, even
having some fertiliser is now a crime.
These guys didn't actually blow up anything -
is it now a crime to just THINK of blowing up
someone? That's thought crime - something
another Mr. Blair (not BLIAR) had something
to say about!

I hope the Muslim Farmer's Assocation helps
them with their case. Free the Fertilizer Eight!

by Mohammad Wid Delonmetits Wed Mar 31, 2004 15:09

Targeting honest Mulsim boy-farmers - if they were attempting to rear pigs, they wouldn't have been touched - pigmeal OK but 10-10-20 wrong????? How this???

by Working Class Hero Wed Mar 31, 2004 16:36

Gerry Daly and Alan Titchmarsh better watch out......

by Breatnach Wed Mar 31, 2004 21:36

...so they should be as happy as pigs in shit.

by Lone Gunman Fri Apr 02, 2004 00:42

Ammonimum nitrate is NOT mixed with sugar.It is mixed with diesel or astolite[dragster engine fuel].Not very difficult to do.mind the sparking tools as a few Ex IRA bomb experts would tell you.
You DO NOT need a booster tube[whatever that is]
You DO NOT need to boil it down to extract the explosive[That is somthing completly different]. ANFO can be detonated in the fertiliser bag.[Black powder needs for example to be contained to explode]. same stuff that was used by Mc Viegh in Oklahoma
You DO NOT need plastic explosive to detonate ANFO,a simple stick of commercial dynamite will do it.ANFO is used in commerical explosive work where you need a high speed detonation,like in breaking up a "hardpan"in a field.
You DO Not have a "lunchbox" for the detonator.you are getting your terrorist chums under body car bomb mixed up.
Having so much fertiliser in a surburban situation is INTENT to commit a crime.Yes,thinking about building,possesion of components,instructions on bomb making is a crime.You dont need traces of it to be nicked.
The Brits were on the ball.Too bad hairies your psycho heros dont get to kill a few hundred innocents this time.
May I suggest -- that you go back and reread your"anarchists manual" or "improvised munitions book" again. Or better still try some of the formulas out.
God protect us from ignorance

by Hilal Fri Apr 02, 2004 09:07

"......a police spokesman said that no physical evidence of manufacturing explosives, such as detonators, timing devices or other paraphernalia, was discovered in the raids."


Required to make Ammonia Niitrate explosive:
Enriching granular fertiliser- boiling and scooping off enriched ammonia crystals, or..
Grounding of granular fertiliser to make better for mixing with icing sugar.
Addition of "laced" pieces of plastic explosive to detonate low explosive threshold AnFo mix.
Booster tubes of high explosive to detonate low threshold explosive AnFo
tubberware lunchbox for timing/detonating unit.
shovels
grinders- not coffee grinder as supposedly used by Adrian McGlinchey in Donegal!
Bags for Anfo mix

etc
etc
etc


"Gunman" like the dog he is, is trying to make out these lads were a lot closer to posessing explosives than they were - just as MI5 are trying to claim......funny co-incidence that! Ireland is still breeding them.

by Lone Gunman Mon Apr 05, 2004 23:55

Are you going to do with 1000 pounds of explosive fertilizer in a city?They must have a HUGE lawn in their house!Or it is so obvious that it was ligit that they had to stockpile it in a lockup?
Off to fertilize the lawns in Hyde park? Pull the other one!
BTW you contradict yourself in the bomb making recipe.You either grind it or boil it to get the An. AND it has to contain a certain percentage.What you are talking about is a full bomb.the ANfo is an explosive in its own right.
you definately got this recipe of some "anarchist cookbook "website,put up by some dimwitted teenager with a mental problem.
Somone please do try it ,the world will be an idiot or many more less.

by Mike - None Thu May 25, 2006 21:22

Reporting of the trial...

On the tape Jawad Akbar: "What about easy stuff where you don't need no experience and nothing and you could get a job, yeah, like for example the biggest nightclub in central London where no-one can even turn round and say "oh they were innocent" those slags dancing around?

Omar Khyam: "If you get a job in a bar, yeah, or a club, say the Ministry of Sound, what are you planning to do there then?"

Jawad Akbar: "Blow the whole thing up."

Omar Khyam: "That's what I'm saying."

Jawad Akbar: "I think the club thing you could do, but the gas would be much harder. There's people who even get in with their searching stuff but it's only bouncers that search you."

Omar Khyam said: "The explosion in the clubs, yeah, that's fine, Bro, that's not a problem. The training for that is available. To get them into the Ministry of Sound really isn't difficult."

by Barry Fri May 26, 2006 04:53

its been highlighted on a number of republican sites that for the last few years an agent has been added to fertiliser manufacturing , a wax-ish type substance within the fertiliser granules that makes the manufacture of explosives from fertiliser virtually impossible unless the would be bombers possess a degree or a formula in chemical engineering to bypass the neutralising substance . Its very easy however to buy fertiliser, create hysteria and jail muslims .

by Barry Fri May 26, 2006 04:56

The ANFO mix that is derived from fertilser is extremely bulky . The very notion of someone carrying a fertiliser bomb , perhaps 50lbs to make it viable , into a nightclub is preposterous . One smells a huge rat .

by Garry Fri May 26, 2006 07:53

Then perhaps you can explain the tapes then Barry? Or the fact that seven men, most of whom that we know lived in flats purchased enough fertiser to cover four football fields, which they claimed they were using for a (non existant) alotment?

The fact that they were unaware that the bomb would be so bulky should not be seen as an sign of innocence rather a sign of incompedence on their part. For example perhaps they thought they could drive to work in a van and park in the staff car park, then detonate the bomb from there. Such a bomb did significant damage to the WTO in the late 90s, imagine what it'd do to an unreinforced structure packed with people, even if it was not inside the building.

by Mike Jericho Fri May 26, 2006 10:06 mikejericho at gmail dot com

I thought that you would be interested to read this transcript of an intercepted phonecall between two of the 'innocent' young men in question. This was played in court, during the trial:

Jawad Akbar: "What about easy stuff where you don't need no experience and nothing and you could get a job, yeah, like for example the biggest nightclub in central London where no-one can even turn round and say "oh they were innocent" those slags dancing around?

"If you went for the social structure where every Tom, Dick and Harry goes on a Saturday night, yeah, that would be crazy."

Omar Khyam: "If you get a job in a bar, yeah, or a club, say the Ministry of Sound, what are you planning to do there then?"

Jawad Akbar: "Blow the whole thing up."

Omar Khyam: "That's what I'm saying."

Jawad Akbar: "I think the club thing you could do, but the gas would be much harder. There's people who even get in with their searching stuff but it's only bouncers that search you."

Omar Khyam: "The explosion in the clubs, yeah, that's fine, Bro, that's not a problem. The training for that is available. To get them into the Ministry of Sound really isn't difficult."

Mr Akbar asks Mr Khyam: "Bruv, you don't think this place is bugged, do you?"

Omar Khyam: "No, I don't think it's bugged Bruv."

Here is the story, courtesy of the BBC.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5016274.stm

Lastly, I curious to know why it is that members of the left are eager to believe that Britons could be liars and killers, but not other Homo Sapiens from a different cultural / racial background.