Commie Shinners

by 2 heads goof Wed Mar 24, 2004 16:01

Space opens up as labour and greens have started to move more and more to centre ground.. to please FG and make themselves more like government material. The protest / left vote is up for grabs. It's a pity labour greens and sf don't see the wood for the trees. The way to really alter the way politics works here would be for those trhree to all rule out opposition to any coalition with FG or FF or PDs and go for switching on the right/left current. This is more possible than ever and the Greens and labour are in the long run shafting themselves by teaming up with the dying FG party.

by Watcher Wed Mar 24, 2004 17:02

Going fully down the Stalinist sticky road.

by Rural Tyrone Cuman Member Wed Mar 24, 2004 17:13

You will find that a Revolutionary Republican Socialist tradition has existed in this part of Ireland..but then again the post seems to be yet another rant against the only party in Ireland which will represent the most oppressed sections of Irish society.

Vote Sinn Fein

by Fergal Wed Mar 24, 2004 17:24

SF adopt a left wing pose because there are votes in it. If they were offered a even a sniff of coalition with FF, they'd drop the "socialist" trappings, and pare their message back to the only thing they really care about. Ask a shinner which he'd prefer, a socialist republic, with the 6 counties remaining in the UK, or a 32-county capitalist state. They invariably avoid answering the question, but I think we all know what the answer is.

by Saoirse Wed Mar 24, 2004 17:42 Derry

So the question to ask them is what price power? They may join some left grouping in order to dress themselves in left clothing in the run-up to elections in the South but they will quickly throw off that garb if, when elected on a working class vote, they are offered the trappings of office in return for agreeing to privatisation and the rest of the Tory agenda.

by observer Wed Mar 24, 2004 20:17

my sympathy to all you sad sectarians eaten up by your hatred and envy of the largest left party in Ireland, and recognised as such by the left in Europe.

by Mike Wed Mar 24, 2004 20:44

The only reason I am butting into YOUR politics here is the way this choice was put has GENERAL implications.

Fergal -- the only way your "choice" would have rlevance to the question "what are they REALLY" would be as a PERMAMENT choice. If you could ask the question "which would you prefer" were that outcome irrevocable -- either a socialist republic in the 26 of a capitalist 32.

But you CAN'T ask that question about "politics", not as a real world question, because politics is an ever ongoing process. NOTHING is finally decided. All you can actually ask here is "which would you prefer to get FIRST" because otherwise your question is NOT political, not connected to human reality. What you SHOULD notice is that.........

Even as a tactical or stategic question they cannot easily answer. They are of a divided mind on the question of "which first".

You cannot conclude even from a definite answer which would be VALUED more, A or B, because again you have the problem of strategy and tactics

Again I must say, I am not really talking just about SF here but how we make this sort of judgement when thinking about ANY political group which has multiple interests. They will ALWAYS appear "not really" if measured by the criteria of other groups who share with them the "A" concern or the "B" concern but not both. Try discussing the Greens and you will see you have the same problem. Try discussing this with a nationalist-capitalist group, try asking THEM which they would prefer, a socialist 32 or an ever divided but both capitalist 26 and 6. You can get into a similar problem with a group which DOESN'T care about some issue very much >

by Tom Shelley Wed Mar 24, 2004 20:55 Boulder, CO USA

The idea that SF would have to choose between a 26-County Socialist Republic or a 32-County Capitalist Republic is ridiculous. In what way would that choice come up in a negoatiation?

You also seem to believe that these two outcomes would be permanent. Most importantly, you think that if Ireland were united under some kind of centre-right or centre-left government that would be permanent. Of course it woudn't be; most SF members would be trying to build socialism; and the fact that partition would be over would help (all/most of those working-class and progressive people on both sides currently dealing with the national question and related issues would be pursuing social-economic issues).

There's also the fact that ending partition, irrespective of how production is organized, is very important in terms of protecting the human rights and lives of nationalists in the North- 30, 80, and 800 years have demonstrated that. We've all seen what has happened with the ANC's economic policies, yet I think it's still incredibly important that Apartheid was ended.

I actually don't believe in a stagist approach- I think it's important to advance socialism with republicanism for several reasons, but if it does end up happening in stages, well, that's better than nothing.

Tom

by Palmiro Togliatti Wed Mar 24, 2004 21:31

They're not joining anyone, as far as I can see.

The article cited actually just says that they're meeting a group from the European United Left/Nordic Green Left group and that they've been meeting delegations from all groups in the Parliament.

The EUL/NGL is a combination of the two old communist groups and the equivalent parties from the new Scandinavian entrants, some of which have repositioned themselves as Green Left parties. The Communists and Allies group in the parliament split between hardliners (Left Unity) and softliners (European United Left, no sense of irony these commies) in the late eighties, with the Greeks, French, Portuguese and our own Proinsias De Rossa in the first group and everyone else in the other. Then after the Italian communists, who were by far the largest element, jumped ship and joined the socialist group they found it convenient to re-merge.

Actually, almost all the 'minority nationalist' parties in the Parliament are part of the Greens/European Free Alliance group. http://www.greens-efa.org/en/ That includes Plaid Cymru, the Scottish Nationalist Party, the Catalan Republic Left, the Aragones Party, and I think the Basque Nationalist Party. The main ones that aren't are both right-wing parties, the Sud-Tirol Peoples' Party and the catalan Convergencia i Unio alliance.

That would seem a more logical home for Sinn Féin. As it's a confederation of the Greens and the EFA the fact that the Irish Greens are in the former bit of it might not pose a problem for SF joining the latter.

Incidentally, I notice that the Greens/EFA statutes cite their name officially in Scots Gaelic, Welsh and what looks like Basque but not in Irish... the Comhaontas Glas has been slipping up!

by GreenPartyMike - Green Party USA Thu Mar 25, 2004 05:32 ollamhfaery at earthlink dot net

As usual, I find it interesting to see so called "lefties" in the South (or Free State if ya like) talking about Sein Fein. Especially in regarss to the disparaging remarks about a Shinner Cumman in Tyrone. My question is, how many Shinners from Co Tyrone do you know? I lived in Coalisland and Dungannon in Tyrone. I have family involved in the Republican Movement in rural Tyrone, specifically rural Galbally. I can tell you that those "culchies" or "munchies" (if ya are from the big smoke) are in many ways far more revolutionary and leftist in their political outlook then many in the cities. Kinda blows that stereotype away.
Not to mention that the Civil Rights Movement started in Dungannon, ALA the 68 Coalisland to Dungannon March. I personally was at the 69 march a year later as a 10 year old child. Those field hospitals set up at the border by the Free State government did us NO FUCKING GOOD. The hypocracy and political cowardice of the souths government, along with the "I'm all right Jack" attitude of many in the South is/was and continue to be stunning.
Likewise, we need to mention that "right/centerist" Bernadette Devlin, a woman deemed so dangerous that she was barred from entereing the US. Again, a local yokel, or munchie.
The reason why I respect the Greens and Bernadette Devlin is that they BOTH while disagreeing with the armed conflict in the north, stated that we need to deal with the *thunderclap* fucking ROOT CAUSE of armed conflict.
Mind you, looking at many of the so called left in Ireland, in regards to the north reminds me of so many of the 'left" here in the US.
Bleat bleat. we have to vote for Kerry. However, Ralph Nader speaks on the root cause of the war in Iraq, which is, of course corporate corruption of the political system. Until that central issue is dealt with, then the corporate powers, in government, media and elsewhere will continue to promote their wars. And the Democrats and all their tag a longs all over the world will join the chorus.
Just as many in ireland "stood idly by" in 1969 till the present, so will Democrats in their own way stand idly by" with a US government which kills, maims and overthrows democratically elected governments.
Here is IMHO the bottom line. Whether it is in the South or in the US. As long as it does not effect me personally, wether it is northern Ireland or Haiti, I'm all right Jack applies. Except for, of course those of us in the growing anti-war and global justice community. Folks who will fight for the rights of "others", even when it does not effect us. To me, that is the effective difference between a Green and a Demorat in the US or a Green or Shinner and any of the other so called left in Ireland.
Just my opinion, mind you. *chuckle*

by ---- Thu Mar 25, 2004 09:01

Was it Michael Collins or Gerry Adams who accepted and a twenty six county solution ?

So what is the difference between the "Treaty" and the Good Friday Agreement ? Anyone?

by John Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:20 dunaree2000 at yahoo dot com

No point spending all this time debating which is best: a 26-county socialist state or a 32-county socialist state. Why? Because neither is going to happen, not now, not ever!
Got it, you left-wing clowns? No country as rich as Ireland has ever gone socialist, not in the whole entire history of the world. Plus, Ireland has been a conservative pro-capitalist country for centuries. So, stop wasting everybody's time, go out and do something useful like working in McDonald's.
Stop prattling on about Ireland's socialist tradition, whether in Tyrone, Galway or anywhere else, because there isn't one. If it wasn't for the PR system of voting, which allows any fruitcake to claim the last seat in a 5-seat constituency, there wouldn't have been a single socialist TD in the history of the state. By the way, is Ireland the only country that has more socialist parties than voters? Looks like it.

by By Any Means Necessary Thu Mar 25, 2004 11:34

The Treaty was forced down the throats of the people by the threat of war, the Good Friday Agreement had the approval of over 70% of the divided Irish people.

Big differrence...

...calling Sinn Fein blueshirts is an insult to the Republicans who died in Spain fighting fascism and those who fought the British war machine in the six counties.