Coalition to be set up

by activist Sat Mar 13, 2004 19:42

I realise that this is in some way in violation of IMC posting guidelines, but I think it is important that people be aware of where the first ideological moves towards such a referendum took place. So using an internet archive, I've dug up the original NSRUS proposal which was as follows;

The Proposition :

"Citizenship of the Irish Republic only be granted to those of indigenous racial stock
Who can demonstrate a full and comprehensive commitment to the Irish Nation Its Language,Culture,History,Institutions and its Destiny"

to be put before the Irish electorate as a matter of urgency

McDowells language is a little bit more subtle, but the end effect shall be the same...

by Full & comprehensive Sat Mar 13, 2004 20:44

"a full and comprehensive commitment to the Irish Nation Its Language,Culture,History,Institutions and its Destiny"

That rules out most of our politicians and their equally crooked business cronies. And certainly by that definition McDowell should be deported immediately. The only one of those things he can claim to be committed to are the institutions of the state (though that is not necessarily the iInstutions of the Irish Nation)

by . Sat Mar 13, 2004 22:32

.

by iosaf Sun Mar 14, 2004 16:46

If you went to a private nursery group, a private primary school, a private secondary school and a tippy toppy university and left without any proper qualification, you are welcome in exile in a squat with us.

Just think you could do our legal letters.
We love the barristers and we'll pretend you're not really middle class @ all.
You'll fit in perfectly.

Give me a text message when the network is back on. OK?
Have a nice calm Sunday.

by iosaf Sun Mar 14, 2004 16:56

I just checked the records, and it appears you're one of those credited with the Celtic Tiger!
But you did Pembroke and Gonzaga which is snobby enough eh? oh dear a bit of the jesuit in you, AMDG, and you're descended from Eoin MacNeill. Now that won't really cut any ice at the cocktail parties. (You're descended from the enemy you see.) But of course we're all supposed to be on the same side for certain things. Maybe If you could find it in your heart to be reach out to us, we will all make the Celtic Tiger nice little cubs.

Did it ever occur to you, or indeed the "eltic Tiger" Mammy Harney that praising aggression was one of the globalised social mistakes made by your style of management class?

Maybe someday we'll talk about it, over coffee, some Mozart and of course deep thought on what "reclaiming the Republic" means.
http://www.progressivedemocrats.ie/press_room/788/?PHPSESSID=ace7bd2ee178e8aaac74ec32a3c7223a

¿Now where did you come up with that turn of phrase?

by ya basta Mon Mar 15, 2004 00:03

...organise against this!

by killian Mon Mar 15, 2004 01:00

The poster is excellent - well done.

by John J C Mon Mar 15, 2004 01:24

I presume that this won;t just be a front for some obscure socialist party (SWP/SP or whatever nickname they have now) and will actually be a genuine attempt to form a wide ranging coalition.

have Fine Gael and other Christan Democratic organisations been invited to attend?

have representatives been invited from the Catholic Church hieararchy?

by John J C Mon Mar 15, 2004 01:27

I hope that left wing candidates won't engage in McDowell style opurtunism and use this cmapign as an attempt tp boost their profile.

Could we have it that those standing for election not be considered for leadership or spokesperson roles within the organistation and also that the spokespeople not be high ranking members of political parties?

by Chekov Mon Mar 15, 2004 01:35

The coalition hasn't even been set up yet, you eejits, and you obviously don't know the first thing about Residents against Racism if you are accusing them of being an SWP/SP front.

As for the silly questions:

"have Fine Gael and other Christan Democratic organisations been invited to attend? Have representatives been invited from the Catholic Church hieararchy?"

It is a PUBLIC MEETING, this presumably means that they are as welcome to come as anybody else. If you think it's so important that they come along, why don't you contact them and let them know about it?

by antrophe Mon Mar 15, 2004 03:44

Just to allay fears, the meeting came from the RAR meeting last week, so is in no way a front for the SP, SWP or any other. Various people at the meeting took on responsibilties to contact a wholly diverse section of peoples to get them involved in the March 27th meeting, that means people are contacting religous groups from the churches to the mosques, people are trying to spread word in the trade union and student movement, hospital action groups are being contacted, immigrant communites are being invited. It is essential that word is spread about this meeting through every conceiveable network people have access to. Its important that as many people and organisations as possible show up and do what they can do wipe McDowell and the states face in the muck on this one.

Download a copy of poster for distribution in your workplace or college at;

poster here

by C.Coady Mon Mar 15, 2004 04:06

Micky McDowell's breeding blood is running thinner everyday. He fills himself with so much diluted shite that it's bound to happen.
What was that quote by 'fizz assist' Einstein? "For every positive or negative action, there's an equality opposite reaction."?
Wrong! For every action by the Rottweiler McDowell, there will be more than an equal reaction. The racist scumbag.

by Michael Gallagher - R.A.R. Mon Mar 15, 2004 04:23

If John J. C. is concerned about R.A.R. being a front for the SWP, he should check my reply to another comedian on the article entitled, 'No Nations, No Borders.' The same answer applies.
Didn't you know that the SWP are a front for a not so genuine 'socialist party', (notice the capitals?) Oh you did notice, go to the front young person!!

by By Any Means Necessary Mon Mar 15, 2004 10:17

As an Irish citizen, living in the North of Ireland I am sickened by this racist proposal. The vote will also exclude me and hundreds of thousands of Irish citizens born in Ireland who oppose this attempt to add racist ideology to the constitution.
For an Ireland free from racism and fascsim.

by John Meehan Mon Mar 15, 2004 12:09

The RAR is doing great work with this initiative. This is a big step in the right direction - unite and defeat the racist McDowell referendum proposal on Irish Citizenship.

by legal eagle Mon Mar 15, 2004 13:23

I believe the current proposal is that the constitutional amendment will have two main things 1, Citizenship decided by law. 2, The citizenship Bill 2004 can only be amended by a referendum (This bill will be published at same time as referendum).

This bill will state that those born in the north to Irish citizens will still be entitled to citizenship. It is l;ikely also to include provision for citizenship for the diaspora. THe only citizenship rights that are being taken away are those of childern born to non national parents and to take further rights away it will need a referendum.

This only further highlights the racist nature of the amendment.

by aidan Mon Mar 15, 2004 13:38

The poster is excellant. We will poster for it in UCD also to gather as much support as possible.

by - Mon Mar 15, 2004 18:09

very good poster we must move to build that community at home in Ireland/Northern Ireland/Eire/ulster/Europe and abroad.

by Dick Dowling Mon Mar 15, 2004 19:30

I believe the real targets of this Bill are not the passport pregnancies, the African women who come here just to have a baby. It is in reality directed against the Chinese. There are some 60,000 of them in Dublin alone, most of them of child-bearing age. They have already started to have children. if we don't address the issue of citizenship now, within a decade we'll have a couple of hundred thousand Chinese who are citizens of Ireland. I like the Chinese, but I don't want to see a sudden and vast demographic change like that. The people have a right to their say on this.

by segun n Mon Mar 15, 2004 19:46

No matter who or what party/parties participates in building a coalition to fight this refendum, what's at stake here is more than arguments about it being a front for swp/sp it about peoples lives. does any wants to see widespread racist attack? or ireland turning into a racist state or more people sent to their death by being deported?
so brethen let's unite and say ireland is still a country of a thousand welcome !

by Badman Mon Mar 15, 2004 19:56

The vast majority of Chinese who come to Dublin come for 3 years to make as much money as possible to set up a life back in China. Very few settle permanently or have any interest in doing so. You are an ignorant racist fool. The real target of the bill is the local and European elections. And it is really aimed at Sinn Fein and the left. They are in a difficult position. If they campaign against the bill, they will invariably lose votes among the disillusioned (as they are often the people who are persuaded to blame refugees by the right wing media) . If they don't campaign against it, they will alienate whatever genuinely principled activists there are in their parties. The SP/WCA/SWP/ISN all face the same challenge. Do they opt for principle or for votes? It is a very clever move by Bertie (especially letting McNazi take the flack). Badman's prediction is that the shinners will VERY quietly oppose the bill in a mutter under the breath sort of way (even less enthusiastically than their opposition to the last abortion referendum). The well-to-do liberal constituency in Labour will vocally oppose it while their candidates in working class areas will do nothing - which is actually going to be counterproductive as their message will be received as a condescending lecture from people far removed from the perceived competition for resources. The ISN and SWP will oppose it vocally as they aren't going to win seats anyway (except for RBB). The SP and WCA are the real ones where it is difficult to call. The WCA could follow IWCA in the UK and oppose the bill while adopting the opportunist 'working class people should have a right to say who lives in their areas' line which will effectively mean surrendering the ground to the racists - I sincerely hope not. If the SP oppose it they will probably sacrifice a couple of seats - an interesting test of how much the contagion of electoralism has spread into that organisation and one that I don't think they will pass. That's enough from the badman school of punditry. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating. Who will put in the work? Who will spend time on this rather than pushing their own parties in the local elections? Who will do something and not just say things? Is Badman all-knowing? Only time will tell.

by pat c Mon Mar 15, 2004 20:02

I dont think theres any question about what either the SP or WCA will do. They will openly and forthrightly oppose this racist referendum. Given the committment of both organisations to a no platform stance - and their records of implementing it - I cant see how you would expect anything else.

I would also be very surprised if SF were to be lukewarm in opposing the referendum. Can you point to any instances where SF were soft on racism or even soft towards those with anti-immigrant stances?

by SFwatch Mon Mar 15, 2004 20:07

I could point to instances where SF transfers have gone to openly racist candidates. I think for SF these local elections are very important, they will probably make major breakthroughs, they will not want to potentially lose support by coming out strongly against the referendum. Then again it could go the other way, if SF do nothing they will lose support from the left. In my opinion they will take a fairly soft stance on it and oppose it but not campaign strongly and really argue the toss on the doorsteps.

by pat c Mon Mar 15, 2004 20:13

Which sf candidates were these whose votes transferred to racists? Did theyse sfers give any signsals they were soft on racism?

by SFwatch Mon Mar 15, 2004 20:57

Aine NiChonaill transfered heavily to Aonghus O'Snodaigh. O'Snodaigh got 22.77% of her transfers which is significantly higher than any other candidate. This is of course not saying that O'Snodaigh is a racist, that is not the case at all. What it shows is that SF do get sizable support from some racist elements.

by Peter Snow Mon Mar 15, 2004 21:22

It is well known that SF are not great at picking up transfers. This is indicated in their underrepresentation in the Dáil. This will also of course be the case with the local and Euro elections. It also seems to be the case that approx 20% of consciously racist voters will vote SF. It also the case that if a referendum on citizenship is held it will increase racist sentiments and therfore racist voters. Of course SF have come out against this referendum which puts them is a tricky situation. If they campaign strongly against the referendum they will lose votes from the right while there would be serious competition among a variety of parties for the left anti racist vote. If SF play the race card and campaing against the referendum they will alienate a huge chink of their supporters, if they campaing strongly against the referendum they will lose a chunk of support which will lose them seats considering SF's inability to pick up transfers. My guess is that SF will be nominally against the referendum but will do very little campaigning on the issue.

I would think that the many of the same factors apply to the other parties. However Labour and the Greens do not really get as much support from conscious racists and they can take transfers from all over the place. As for the SP/SWP/WCA/ISN, I think these parties are fairly ideologically committed and would not engage in the same electoral pandering as the other parties. They will probably campaing strongly against the referendum even if it mean losing the odd seat.

by Colm Breathnach - ISN-personal capacity Mon Mar 15, 2004 21:25

While I dont usually respond to anonymous postings, I can't let Badmans brief reference to the ISN go unchallenged.

Overall his comment is quite thoughtful but marred by an obvious ignorance of the ISN and its record of activity. The ISN is only a small organisation based mainly in Finglas. Contrary to Badmans comment we never engage in the type of 'vocal' but futile campaign he alludes to. Regardless of electoral issues, and by the way I think you will be surprised by the vote John O Neill gets in Finglas, the ISN will engage in this anti-referendum in an active and principled way i.e we will try to convince people in Finglas to vote against the proposal with practical and sensible arguments. Our record in many campaigns including the last Abortion Referendum, The Bin Tax Campaign, the Anti War Movement shows that we avoid rhetoric and posing and get on with the work on the ground.

We will adopt exactly the same position on this referendum as we would if we were not running in the local election.

Perhaps Badman, in light of this info. you might accept that you were wrong to characterise the ISN in the manner you did.

by Badman Mon Mar 15, 2004 23:51

I did not mean to imply that 'vocal' opposition meant that you would be somehow superficially opposed to the bill. I also did not mean to lump you in with the SWP in any way - I do believe that the ISN will play an important part in this referendum and are exactly the type of force that the anti-referendum side needs to have - would that there were more such groups.

As for the others, we will wait and see. I sincerely hope that left groups do get stuck in on this one. I hope the Shinners do too, but have very little hope on that one. I hope to be proved wrong.

by Pór na hÉireann Tue Mar 16, 2004 01:43

The Leftist pinheads are making a civilised debate about citizensship almost imposiible because of their sheeplike cries of "fascist, racist".

It's just a sign of stupidity.

by Mairin B Tue Mar 16, 2004 04:19

"foreigners taking advantage of us"
Can I take it then that you are opposed to multinational corporations coming in here and 'repatriating' their profits? Somehow I doubt it, you and your ilk always side with the rich and powerful against the ordinary people. You don't care about the Irish people, you probably also support the continued occupation of the six counties. You and your BNP friends have nothing to offer Ireland.
If you think you can deceive the Irish people, then that is a sign of your stupidity.

by Micheal Tue Mar 16, 2004 13:44 micheal1916 at hotmail dot com

The Racist group NSRUS have launched a new Campaign in support of the Racist referendum.

In its email newsletter it calls for all Irish "Race Patriots" to support the Racist referendum.

by Grey Blocker Tue Mar 16, 2004 15:01

These so called 'race patriots' have nothing to offer the Irish people. They have more in common with the British National Party, as Mairin has pointed out above. Those elements have always supported British imperial rule in Ireland, right from the time of the Blueshirts, Irelands fascist movement of the thirties, and consistently till now. The only time they were opposed to Britain was during the second world war.
I remember in the early seventies working in the same place as a person who was forever giving the nazi salute. He was also vehemently against anyone who opposed British rule in the north. Those are the elements who support McDowell and his racist referendum.

by Colm Breathnach - ISN personal capacity Tue Mar 16, 2004 19:03

Fair dues Badman. I think the issues you raised are important and that the type of campaign that emerges will be crucial. Already, there are some differences emerging on the style of campaign necessary. My own view is that we need a grassroots campaign based in working class communities that does not simply treat people as ignorant racists but at the same time takes on racist attitudes in a practical and principled way. The alternative seems to be some catch all liberal campaign that will go down fine with Labour/Green types but will have no impact in working class communities. I also agree the role of SF will be important, ie lip service or real work on the ground.

by Dick Dowling Tue Mar 16, 2004 19:34

Colm wrote:
...not simply treat people as ignorant racists ...

Colm: That's all very nice but I notice that you wrote in support of this person "Badman" who should more accurately be called StupidMan. This character called me an ignorant racist fool. In other words since he is too lazy or stupid to deal with the points I raised he prefers just to shout invective. That type of lunatic language will guarantee an 85% majority backing McDowell's proposal. Can't someone rein in barking dogs like Badman ?

by Badman Tue Mar 16, 2004 20:09

I agree with colm that we shouldn't be treating most people as ignorant racist fools. You on the other hand are an ignorant racist fool (and I know which site you're coming from boy). I did actually address your point too. I pointed out that it was ignorant and misinformed. It was. Care to provide any evidence for your claim? I know that you can't, as having many dealings with Dublin's Chinese community, I know that you are talking bollox as I have already pointed out above. You on the other hand didn't actually address my rebuttal. I also know that the reason that you are spouting such rubbish is because you are a racist.

Since you and I both know that you are just spouting ignorant rubbish, why not shut up, accept your ignorance and go learn something before commenting again?

So, to summarise. The content of your comment was ignorant. QED.

You commented despite your ignorance, making you a fool. QED.

Although people don't normally comment in public forums when they are ignorant about the facts, you chose to do so. In making this choice you were motivated by racism. Thereby making you a racist. QED.

So there's my arguments backed up. Now can you do that with your Chinese claim? Or am I going to have to add a few more adjectives to your list of attributes. I can already sense the words "embarassing", "of below average intelligence", "bitter" and "twisted" forming on my lips.

P.S. Do a search in the advanced search section of this site for author "Dick Dowling" and you'll find many of his precious opinions scattered across the site. He has such varied and intelligent opinions as - We're about to be invaded by eastern europeans - we are being invaded by foreigners - Iraqis piss off home (3 times on 3 different threads) - all asylum seekers are bogus and pretty much nothing else. So Dick, next time you come here on holidays, why not come and ask me to rein myself in?

by omega supreme Tue Mar 16, 2004 22:28

McDowell wants dialogue, discourse and open debate on a subject which the general public will then get to vote on.

And you, who are oppossed to all these things call him a nazi?

sorry forgot everyone who is even a bit right of Stalin is a Nazi to you lot.

by Phuq Hedd Tue Mar 16, 2004 22:43

Badman has provided a rational point-by-point explanation of why s/he said what s/he did.

Nowhere has anyone called McDowell a NAZI. The original post points out that a neo-NAZI group proposed a similar referendum. However McDowell is not called a NAZI. He _is_ flirting with them and other racists and obviously has some overlap in policies with right-wing authoritarians, but this on its own is not enough to make him a NAZI.

He's just a right-wing, racist opportunist.

Now, back to Badman's points. Can you rebut them or not?

by Killian Forde - Sinn Fein Tue Mar 16, 2004 23:21

A couple of points I want to make.

1) The referendum is not yet worded and already we have the alphabet soup fight. I don't know who will do what, I have my own personal beliefs of who will be most active, who will play lip service and who will say one thing in the media and another on the doorstep. But I am willing to shut my mouth, for now, and try and build a broad front coalition.

2) I obviously would have a vested interest in refuting the assumptions and allegations made against SF on this thread, as such beyond saying our record on challenging racism is impecabble I am not going to pick a public fight with anyone so as to score a couple of cheap politcal points. However I have no vested interest in the Green party and as such can comment unbiased on the comments made about the Greens on this thread. The greens in 1999 lost a number of seats in Dublin as they were supportive of the plans to accomdate Travellers. They were the only elected reps in the outlying suburbs where the new halting sites and group housing schemes were to be built who supported the move. I know for a fact that David Healy in Howth lost his seat for his support , both publically and at the doorsteps for a halting site at Howth harbour. Donna Cooney the Donaghmede ward Councillor ,in my opinion was also affected due to her being perceived of being soft on Travellers and this may have caused her the seat. So to make the assumption that the greens are going to pay lip service to this referendum is pretty baseless and I find that level of arrogant sneering quite obnoxious to be honest.

3) I agree with the suggestion that nobody actually satnding for election in June should be the chair or PRO etc of any broad front groups that may be established. Any broadfront groups are likely to be built on a house of cards so any stratdgies to ensure real political rivaleries and/or petty jealousies are controlled and contained until after a referendum.

4) The way to fight this referendum is not to jump down people throats screaming racist if they express an opinion we don't agree with. The urban myths that have seized this country about migrants, refugees and asylum seekers have taken hold but they are easily disproven and this referendum can be won by a slow, sober, calm documented argument delivered on the doorsteps and on the media.

Sin e

by Phuq Hedd Tue Mar 16, 2004 23:32

Although I'm no Green fan I respect David Healy and other Greens for their stance on this issue and know from those that canvassed for him that a huge amount of vitriol was directed at them by people that opposed the halting site.

David Healy (and the Greens in general) deserve respect for addressing the issue in an honest and potentially effective way.

If there is one place that could afford to have a halting site it is Howth. A properly funded, constructed and maintained halting site would have no negative impact on what is one of the richest communities in Dublin. People living there have no excuse about the "stigma" of living next to travellers: we all know how rich and superior they are.

It never ceases to amaze me how a supposedly "liberal" electorate such as that in Howth or D4 have not yet demanded that they get their share of the halting sites in order to set an example of some sort. Instead we have the hysterical nimbyism of people that apparently have more in common with the Tories than anyone else.

by Michael Gallagher - Residents Against Against Wed Mar 17, 2004 06:09 residentsagainstracism at eircom dot net

FOREIGNERS? What are foreigners?? Are they foreign? E.U. ministers coming to Ireland to get their slice of our cake? Are they foreign? butchers like G.W. Bush coming to Ireland to see that the puppet strings are not loose etc. Or are they people going through similar problems and worse than we experienced in the so called 'famine' and trying to make a life for themselves. Answer me Por, na hEireann (Pinhead!)

by omega supreme Sat Mar 20, 2004 16:02

Badman refers to "McNazi" taking the flak for Ahern who could he be refering to I wonder.

As for the arguements, that this is a racist bill, HOW?

The bill is about securing rights for Irish people not white people, so how can it be racist seeing as the irish arent a race but an ethnic group.
So then you'll level the arguement its xenophobic, but its not about taking from, inspireing hatred or fear of foreigners.

Hence it can only be a common sense patriotic bill, designed to secure the rights of the ancient people of Ireland.

And of course let us not forget the famous words of a man born in Ireland, who when asked if he was Irish replied

"Just because a man is born in a stable does not make him a horse".

by Michael Gallagher - Residents Against Racism Sun Mar 21, 2004 17:28 residentsagainstracism at eircom dot net 12a Brunswick Place, Dublin 2 087 6662060 087 7974622

The meeting to set up a coalition against the proposed referendum has been changed to the ATGWU, Middle Abbey Street, Dublin 1. Saturday, March 27 at 1pm.

by Indymedia Ireland Editorial Group - Indymedia Ireland Tue Apr 06, 2004 21:45

.