BNP to contest in North.

by anti-fascist republican Mon Dec 15, 2003 20:35

As was correctly predicted by the SF speaker at Trinity in November. Naturally the various so called socialist presents did their usual sneering at the mention of the six counties. But as usual SF are correct in how these guys operate and will work. I say we can expect to see the BNP to make moves south soon.

by bookie Tue Dec 16, 2003 21:28

anyone have odds on the BNP beating the SP in overall vote terms ??

by Paddy Powers Tue Dec 16, 2003 22:08

I'll give you odds of 1000 to 1 on that the SP will be the most vociferous and most effective in campaigning against the BNP if they try and move into the North. How much do you want to bet?

Also your sectarianism is exposed by your assumption that protestant workers in the North would vote for fascists. The frivolous attitude you have taken to this issue doesn't hid but actually exposes what you are - a bigot!

by pic of gorgeous Desi Nugent pg201 Tue Dec 16, 2003 22:36

I'd like to see them adolf kraut loving BNP nazis try to take on the UDA&UVF. People still remember the obscenity that was the brit government backed LVF/C company nazis and their double dealing dirty murderous tricks.

.

by babsdebrawl Tue Dec 16, 2003 22:39

Why would you want to storm Tigers bay, its controlled by lovely Andre& Ahab shoukri.
At least Ahab's free for christmas, heres hoping Andre gets out for christmas too.

by Hebe Wed Dec 17, 2003 11:20

It amongst the Protestant workers and loyalists that the BNP and NF have always found an audience. You cant admit this because it doesnt fit in with the World According to Peter Hadden.

by Paddy Powers Wed Dec 17, 2003 13:16

Hebe give me one example of when protestant workers have supported the NF or the BNP?
The opposite is the case there is in fact a strong anti-fascist consciousness amongst protestant workers mostly based on the memory of the second world war and because many protestants fought in that war as they saw it as a war against Hitler and fascism.
There has been links between some loyalist paramilitaries and fascists in Britain. But that would involve literally a few dozen people and doesn't in anyway indicate support for fascism amongst protestant workers. As one commentator hints at the BNP will face opposition from the loyalist paramilitaries. The majority of the loyalist paramilitaries despite their extreme sectarian politics would not support fascism. The "evidence" given by Pat C about the links between "loyalists" and the BNP / NF should be viewed in the context that it relates to a tiny handful of people out of a population of one million protestants. The NF in the past and now it seems the BNP think that protestants in the North would be a fertile ground for them to build. But no fascist organisation has ever build a base in the North. The biggest show of support for fascists in the North was the demo they held in Coleraine in 1984. In a town with a protestant majority with nearby hardline areas of North Antrim etc all they could mobilise was 100 for the NF demo. The counter demo was 1,000 strong. The NF bookshop on Templemore Ave in East Belfast was burnt down. And despite the huge polarisation and division in the North, 30 years of violence, sectarianism amongst protestants etc neither the NF or the BNP have ever built anything in the North, and it is unlikely that they ever will.
Even amongst the most hardline of protestants, waving a union jack, marching on the 12th etc etc all of these things make you a sectarian bigot they don't necessarily mean you are a fascist.
Its ironic given the view of some "left republicans" on this issue that the only place that a fascist organisation has ever built a base and gained support was in the South - the Blueshirts!

by Ivan Caramba - IBC Wed Dec 17, 2003 13:59

I do believe there was a northern fascist group about at the same time as the Blueshirts. I think they wore blackshirts. Don't know if they were just an NI section of the BUF or independant. I know they laughed heartily at O'Duffy when he tried to forge links with them. I read that in a book called Communism in Modern Ireland by Mike Millotte.

by AF Wed Dec 17, 2003 14:08

Paddy Power I am not to sure that the SP will be the most effective as it was only until very very recently that the SP even got involved in the Anti Racism Network which is the umbrella organisation recently set up to counter the raise of racism and racial attacks. It was they {the ARN} who actively confronted Ulster Unionist party politician Fred Crowe's racism remarks and continued until he was censored. It was they who went to the Ulster Unionist party conference and visually protested. It was their statement and its huge endorsement from trade unionists and trade union councils, ethnic minority organisations, community organisations and much more that lead to the Northern Ireland Sec. of state to raise it in the House of Commons. It was their very recently vigil that brought more than twenty five organisations out the side the city hall so that it brought again the whole issue of racism to the front of politics. It was and is the united campaign of the ARN not seen in over a decade that has provided the effective united and public voice on television, radio and in the papers and on the streets recently against racism. So when you say the SP will be the most effective I am surprised at this as only until very very recently had the SP played no role what so ever in a united campaign against racism not seen in over a decade. They did though eventually after the ARN up and running for months, turn up at the vigil though with their banner which was good to see. It will not be the SP on a stall which is good to see though, that will be the most effective stand against racism as you say, but by this united alliance of many organisations that will, can and have already began to mobilise and agitate, who to date have already proved very effective. It is good to see that the SP are eventually aware of the need to participate in a united campaign made up of all the ethnic minority organisations, trade unionists, community workers and organisations, human rights organisations, justice campaigns, socialist and anarchists and much more, as such a united stand looking to the communiites, trade unions, ethnic minority groups etc as has already begun,to begin to build mass opposition if the BNP do raise their heads, is without doubt the most effective way of defeating the BNP.

by Fight Facism Wed Dec 17, 2003 14:26

Linton Kwesi Johnson Fite Dem Back lyrics
we gonna smash their brains in
cause they ain´t got nofink in ´em
we gonna smash their brains in
cause they ain´t got nofink in ´em

some a dem say dem a niggah haytah
an´ some a dem say dem a black beatah
some a dem say dem a black stabbah
an´ some a dem say dem a paki bashah

fashist an di attack
noh baddah worry ´bout dat
fashist an di attack
wi wi´ fite dem back
fashist an di attack
den wi countah-attack
fashist an di attack
den wi drive dem back

we gonna smash their brains in
cause they ain´t got nofink in ´em
we gonna smash their brains in
cause they ain´t got nofink in ´em

by Henry Joy Wed Dec 17, 2003 14:28

The vast majority of the racist attacks have been in Protestant areas. All of the Fascist links have been with Protestant Loyalists.

An edited selection is outlined below. Full articles are on the AFA site.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Racially motivated hate crime on the rise

BY Áine Ní Bhriain

There is growing alarm at the rise of racially-motivated attacks taking place across the Six Counties and suspicions that far right unionist extremists are behind many of them.

The link between white supremacist groups like Combat 18 and other neo-Nazi organisations, and unionist paramilitaries in the North is well documented, but recent indications are that the problem is about to get much worse.

Neo-nazi groups have drafted members into the North for the mass distribution of leaflets and stickers over the past 12 months and some of this propaganda has been found at the scene of several attacks.

On Saturday, 5 July, around 2.30am, a mob of eight to ten men, armed with baseball bats and iron bars, attacked the home of a Muslim family in the predominantly loyalist Enniskeen area and threatened to burn them out of their home. The men violently smashed the kitchen windows and front door before retreating. "They hit the front door with such force that the glass was sent to the landing at the top of the stairs," said one parent later. "They were shouting, 'we warned you to get out'. They said they were making sure the message was clear this time." Six children were in the home at the time of the attack, one of whom is severely disabled.

Sinn Féin's Dara O'Hagan said there has been an increase in the activities of right-wing groups with links to unionist paramilitaries in the Upper Bann area. The ongoing assaults have also been linked to racist leaflets that have been appearing in the Craigavon area. The leaflets invoke fears of "Al-Quaida-style terrorists operating in the area" and oppose the building of a Mosque in nearby Blery. Permission for the building was granted by Craigavon Borough Council last month, despite objections from unionist members.

A Muslim Women and Children's Group spokesperson said she was appalled at the latest attack against a Muslim family in the Craigavon area. "It has been happening to a number of families in Protestant areas," she said. "Where are their rights to practise their religion? The people responsible just don't seem to want anyone different near them."

Racist attacks are not limited to unionist estates however. Over the course of the last few weeks, there have been two separate racially-motivated attacks along the Antrim Road in north Belfast.

"On Monday night of last week the owner of the Night of Bengal on the Antrim Road, who is originally from Bangladesh, was assaulted as he was closing up," said Sinn Féin Councillor Danny Lavery. "The two men then proceeded to smash up the shop. I dare say that if the owner of the shop had not had the shop grille to retreat behind, we could very well be dealing with a far more serious outcome. There is no place whatsoever in our society for this kind of narrow-minded bigotry."

The attack on the Indian takeaway was followed by an assault and robbery on a Chinese restaurant down the street just a few days later. Two male youths, between 16 and 17 years of age, entered the fast food establishment in the early evening and went under the shop's high counter into the back kitchen. One of the youths then demanded money as he brandished a broken bottle and threatened the young Chinese woman, who was in the shop on her own. The woman refused to give the pair anything, and the two hoods struggled with her before stabbing her in the face with the bottle and grabbing the restaurant till. The two ran off in the direction of the Waterworks Park with the young woman in pursuit, bleeding from her face. The till was later recovered but the two attackers escaped.

These three incidents are only the latest in a series of escalating racially motivated attacks that have plagued the Six Counties in recent months. Less than two weeks ago, two pipe bombs were left outside the Belfast homes of two different black families from South Africa. The devices were left outside houses on the same street in the unionist Village estate, days apart., both families were deeply traumatised. One woman who was targeted had been living alone with her eight-week-old twins at the time of the attack.

Both incidents have been linked to Briish National Party hate literature, which had appeared in the area just prior to the attacks.

According to Dr Joseph Uhomoibhi, chairperson of the Belfast based African Cultural Centre, seven black African families have fled the Village area in recent weeks and over the course of the last two months.

Loyalists linked to white supremacist organizations have also subjected several African families in the Village to abuse and hate mail. "There was always name-calling, graffiti, car tyres slashed, that sort of thing," says Dr Uhomoibhi. "Then three weeks ago, an African man came home to find two live bullets on his doorstep. He ran for his life and hasn't been back to the house since."

Racist graffitit and graffiti refering to hate groups like Combat 18, the KKK, and the National Front has appeared on walls, telegraph poles, and buildings in the area. Dr Uhomoibhi says there have also been attacks on Africans living in Ballymena, Coleraine and Craigavon.

In his annual report, PSNI Chief Hugh Orde stated there had been almost 700 racist attacks in the Six Counties in the past three years - and that 226 incidents had been reported in the 12 months prior to this April. Another report, issued by the Equality Commission, stated that there is a higher rate of racist attacks in the Six Counties than in England and Wales.

In the past several years, the homes of Filipino nurses have been targeted in Ballymena.

Meanwhile, British Secretery of State Paul Murphy has promised an immediate investigation into sectarian and racist messages found on loyalist band websites. Murphy has also agreed to examine the link between loyalist bands, loyalist paramilitaries and white supremacist groups, whose logos and messages are promoted on the websites. The websites of several "kick the Pope" bands openly carry messages of hatred against ethnic minorities, and in particular, people whose skin colour is black. Campaigners have called on the PSNI to monitor the sites and to prosecute and fine the service providers who enable the websites to operate. They have also called on the Parades Commission to examine the websites before making determinations in relation to marches requested by those bands.

Combat 18, which is widely regarded as one of the most dangerous racist groups, has been publically linked to the UFF and LVF, particularly during the Drumcree standoff. A Combat 18 wreath was present at the funeral of unionist paramilitary Billy 'King Rat' Wright. Several well known loyalists have been regularly spotted at far-right rallies in England and there have been regular visits to the North by far-right English football hooligans, the British Ulster Alliance.

In April of 2000, Sinn Féin warned that the group was behind sectarian attacks on Catholics in the mainly Protestant town of Rathfriland in County Down. Five months later, a wreath bearing the Combat 18 name was seen at the funeral of unionist paramilitary Steven McKeag. In November of the same year, a guman who was jailed for life for his part in the gun attack on the Rising Sun Bar in Greysteel, Co Down, was also linked to the group. The horrific attack left eight people dead.

An Phoblacht/Republican News - Thursday 17 July 2003

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The victims of Ulster's new bigotry

Belfast Telegraph - 16th July 2003

Paul, one of a growing number of Africans in Belfast, was so shocked to know there was a bomb at his house he cannot remember whether it was his wife or police who told him they had to leave. They grabbed their two sons and were hurried to safety leaving the Army to deal with the pipe bomb beside their oil tank.

Paul is from the Sudan; his sons, who are twins, were nine weeks old when the bombers came. We were in the police station about four hours, then we went to our cousin's place; but she was also being attacked that night.

"We were just so scared, so scared.
.He asked: "What do you get by blowing up folk who are black? What do you get by blowing up nine-week-old kids? What are you going to get? Do you go home and drink and laugh?"

In one attack last weekend a gang of up to 10 men with baseball bats and iron bars attacked a Muslim family's home in Co Armagh, shouting: "We are warning you to get out."

Plans to build a mosque in the district for the 300 Muslims there have been criticised in racist leaflets. Similar leaflets have been circulated where Paul lived, in the loyalist Village district of south Belfast.

Most of the more systematic assaults have been in hardline Protestant areas, which tend to be tough and suspicious of any outsiders.

The UDA has denied involvement, but the use of pipe bombs means the organisation is under suspicion. Some elements of loyalist groups have always had a certain crossover with white supremacist groups in Britain.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Racist flag 'put up to cause offence'

Controversy has flared over racist flags in Ballymena - including one directly outside the front door of offices jointly used by the Social Security Agency and Housing Executive.

The White Nationalist Party (WNP) flag was put up on a street lamp beside Twickenham House at Mount Street in the Co Antrim town. Others appeared in the nearby Clonavon district which has previously seen racist attacks on homes.

A police spokesman said they were aware of the WNP flag at Mount Street.

One Ballymena resident said it seemed those who put up the WNP flag thought they would cause most offence by placing it near the joint offices. "Twickenham House would be a place where foreign nationals, would probably visit as a point of contact with the Government and it appears it was designed to make foreigners feel particularly unwelcome."


A Social Security Agency spokeswoman said it had no comment on the flag as it was not on its property. A Housing Executive spokeswoman said: "The flag was not on Housing Executive property and we do not have details with regard to its erection or its removal."

In recent years there has been an increase in racist incidents in Ballymena. Racist stickers were put up and homes of foreign workers were attacked.

Belfast Telegraph - 23 July 2003

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Much more on AFA Site

by Mags Wed Dec 17, 2003 17:16

Just maybe 'Paddy Powers' is being disingenuous here:

"Its ironic given the view of some "left republicans" on this issue that the only place that a fascist organisation has ever built a base and gained support was in the South - the Blueshirts!"

Who was it again who beat the Bleushirts off the street? Oh yeah, them left Republicans, wasn't it...

by Davy watch Wed Dec 17, 2003 17:41

AF is Davy Carlin. Two giveaways:

1) The trademark rambling style

2) Giving out about the SP while pretending that whatever the SWP are involved in this week is the best thing since sliced bread.

So fucking obvious Davy.

by Rambling Rover Thu Dec 18, 2003 13:57

So we have had the call of bigot and guess work by the SP but yet no answers? I am sure people are not naive enough to fall for that one.

It is suggested that the SP will be 'the most vociferous and most effective in campaigning against the BNP if they try and move into the North. To date there have been many ethnic minorites put out of their homes by racist attacks and racism is on the raise, this without the BNP. As said above the ARN have not only been the most vociferous and effective but have done it through a united alliance not formed and seen in well over a decade.

The question is what have the SP done that is 'the most effective' they held a stall ok but they had refused to get involved in the most effective and visual campaign against racism seen in many many years. Only when they realised that it was a highly signifigant campaign did the bring a banner along to the recent vigil. My question therefore is quite simple who will the SP be campaigning with to be the most effective given the fact of the huge representation and profile already shown to the ARN due to it successful actions of which the SP had not before participated?.


In all honesty the SP have but held a stall ,fair enough, but had not even become involved or even acknowledged the work of ARN and it many participants, {because I presume that it was initiated by the Belfast SWP} so I cannot see where this 'most effective' idea comes from. Racial attacks are happening now and the ARN are the only vocal and actiive voice that has and will moblise and speak out against it. Rather than wait until the BNP come here the ARN has created that united campaign not seen in many a year that will and has mobilised NOW. Therefore paddy power your words are but rhetoric and not based on reality just empty words without actions.

I await the' political inevitablity' {oh dear might have given myself away with that line} Maybe? Guess who?

by frank ryan Thu Dec 18, 2003 18:00

Paddy Powers, your ignorance is so all-encompassing that it is difficult to know where to start. Obviously you beleive that loyalism is somehow more benign than your narrow definition of fascism. The links and sympathies between loyalsim and the British fascists are of long duration and well documented. Indeed, it is probably true to say that the UVF and UDA epitomise what the likes of Combat 18 want to be. They after all have murdered hundred and hundreds of people on the basis of a similar British ethno-imperialistic ideology while the ridiculous characters who constitute the Brit organsiations have never risen above the level of street gangs. And who do you think is organising the racist attacks in the 6 counties at present? Who have objected to mosques and so on?Loyalism is as close to fascism as it is possible to get. But just because they do not fit in with some of your simplistic definitions they don't qualify. As for your "clever" reference to the blueshirts. Well, as Mags has already said it was the IRA and the other left republicans including the 'Stalinist' CP who did for them. I know it is probably part of the SP myth that it was the Labour Party or some nonsense like that. It wasn't. Read something that wasn't written by Hadden for a change. He makes Ron Hubbard sound credible.

by congratulations on an ahistoric past Fri Dec 19, 2003 15:59

Why the blueshirts were fascists:

1) they had a uniform

2) they had a salutre

why they weren't



1) They were set up to defend free speech. When C na G recognised the will of the people for a change in government in 32, they vacated office in the greates democratic guesture this country has ever seen. However when in opposition their meeitngs were continually broken up by released IRA prisioners who, were armed and believe in that great Republican motto, no free speech to traitors. The blueshirts were an unarmed organistaion who sought to allow C na G, Centre party and others to hold political meetings free from government sponsored intimidation.

2) It is worth noting that many of those associated with the blueshirts, were the most vociferous supporters of Irish intervention in support of the Anti-Nazi forces in WWII. it should be noted that no blueshirt died in a submarine home from mass murdering germany.

3) Duffy never tried to garner links with 'fascist' in Northern Ireland,. The reason Duffy was sacked from the newly formed FG was that he began making extremist speeches calling for a invasion of Northern Ireland,

4) The Blueshirts opposed a policy of complete self-sufficencies in economic policy, and actively supported a very liberal form of free trade. All fascist governments and parties sought to be completly reliant on the national economy, in comparsions the blueshirts opposed DeV;s policy of burn everythinh british but the coal annd wanted to increase exports and reduce any remainig tariffs.

5) The blueshirts never sought for the corporatist solution to Irish democracy, prefering the status quo. Indeed the blueshirts and later FG always sought to remain within the Irish democratic syste,

their are plenty of other reasons as well but chances are none of the rest of ye can see beyond a unifrorm and salute

Out of curiousity, which modern day Irish party sought support from the germans when the holocaust was at it height?

by frank ryan Fri Dec 19, 2003 17:30

But, the Blueshirts were the Irish equivalent of similar movements in the rest of Europe at the time. Granted their pro-Britishness did outweigh their infatuation for Hitler although they were more attracted to Italian fascism which was different again from German Nazism. Anyway, we could argue about that for the rest of the night. Point is they were bad fuckers - anti-republican, anti-labour and I for one am proud to have had relatives who beat the shite out of them.

by into arguing all night.... - so I am. Sitting in your Tuscan villa slagging off the lefties in squats, council flats & bedsits. Fri Dec 19, 2003 19:14

was a great book, (if i'm guessing who you are rightly).
The Blue shirts have confused loads of people over the years, undoubtedly bad shits, but it really is surprising how many bad shits there were then, on both sides, I am a libertarian and some of the antics of the anarchists during the civil war are bad shit things to do, and indeed might have provoked the really much worse bad shitty things the Falangists did.
But towards the end of the 90s OUP produced a little reader series which covered a range of topics including "ethnicity", "socialism", "feminism", "fascism". I remember reading the essays within and being quite shocked to read some of the Blue Shirt statements from that time.
I believe they were fascist, and that many others in Ireland at that time were also fascist. They believed in a lost utopian national mythical past that could only be redeemed in their hands, they believed in a universal red threat, they believed in a para-militarised social corporative society and they believed in scapegoating ethnic or religious minorities.
And these were the beliefs which held european fascism together and created a Europe which was every country except Ireland, UK Sweden and Switzerland experience a dictatorship between 1928 and 1945.
And none of these beliefs died.

When yesterday Señor Fraga, the 83 year old President of the Spanish region of Galicia could in the Cortes national Parliament of Spain welcomed the newly elected Socialist President of Catalonia who holds the job as leader of a tripartite alliance of Republican independence leftwingers, with a curious Catalan green marxist alternative grouping that has trebled it's popular vote. He did so a one of the men who served Franco as a minister, and one who oversaw the constitution which honoured Franco's 1948 plebiscite to restore the Bourbon Monarchy.

And his words were:
"Remember the Army guarantee the integrity of Spain".

Lovely, Charming, very old fashioned.
And in many homes throughout Spain I'm sure families remembered their grandparents had "kicked the shite" out of the "other side" be they "falange" or "reds".
The King for his part, accepted the new government of Catalonia shaking hands with the republican ceann chomhairle, Ernest Benach and saying "hablando etiende las personas = by speaking we understand people".
interesting times ahead.

by frank ryan Mon Dec 22, 2003 13:20

Judging by the attacks in Belfast at the weekend, it would appear that your loyalist friends have forgotten their anti-fascist credentials.

by Paddy Powers Tue Dec 23, 2003 00:03

Your last comment shows that you haven't a clue what fascism is - go away read study learn free yourself from your ignorance before you do any harm you fool. You're the boy who cried wolf!

by frank ryan Tue Dec 23, 2003 09:44

A Sinn Féin delegation including South Down MLA Caitríona Ruane ( Equality and Human Rights spokesperson) and South Belfast MLA Alex Maskey (Anti-racism spokesperson) will visit Asylum Seekers detained in Maghaberry Prison tomorrow, Tuesday 23rd December at 9.30am. They will call for an immediate end to the detention of Asylum Seekers in Maghaberry and Magilligan and call for greater co-operation with the Department of Justice in the 26 Counties on the issue of asylum.

by frank ryan Tue Dec 23, 2003 09:54

Is this a quote from Orwell (he wrote some bukes Paddy Power)? Or Pol Pot, or Trotsky maybe? .

I am extremely sorry if the UDA has let you down by engaging in racist attacks. I suppose you will telling us next that because the victims were not Jewish shop stewards or that their attackers weren't wearing swaztikas that it was only a bit of crack. I am afraid it is not I who suffer from a lack of learning - either bookwise or from the school of life. But, you too will grow up some day and see that the world is not as foretold by the Book of Hadden.

by hs - sp Tue Dec 23, 2003 19:24

the neo nazis and fascists in italy all support the ira and bobby sands is their new che guevara, but no one in their right mind would ever conclude the republican movement is fascist . Every skinhead in italy will tell you how he supports the ira, does that make republicans fascist? no. the same can be said for prodestants in northern ireland in relation to english fascists.

by Cathal Brennan Wed Dec 24, 2003 20:12

I find your comments on Blueshirts a bit strange to say the least. You have made some comments that would make even the most rabid Fine Gaeler blush.

To applaud the Cumann Na Gaedhal government for handing over power to Fianna Fail in 1932 and not clinging on to power in a military coup is repeated over and over again, as if this was a great democratic gesture on their part. They had lost the election and were one of the most unpopular governments the state has ever had. They cut old age pensions, they were responsible for the disastrous boundary commision fiasco and were embroiled in several financial and corruption scandals. The full list of their failures would take several pages to relate.

The Blueshirts took over the Army Comrades Association, a group of ex Free State soldiers who were afraid of the consequences of their appalling record of murder, torture and reprisals and afraid that they might lose their priviliged positions in the fledling state.

The fact that they wore and a uniform did not make them fascist, the fact that they were facists made them fascists. They drew their support from the bases that traditionally support fascist groups, the wealthy and middle classes, large landowners and the church hierarchy. They contained large numbersof, although were not exclusively, anti-semetic. Election posters at the time contained caricatures of deValera as a jew, with a hook nosed nose, and a communist. They contained anti-semites such as Desmond Fitzgerald, the former minister for Foreign Affairs and took as their figure heads Michael Collins and Arthur Griffith, who peddled nasty and disgraceful anti jewish articles and cartoons in his publications.

They modeled themselves on other fascist groupings in Europe at the time and did subscribe to corporatism.

They supplied members to scab workers who were on strike and broke up picket lines, particularly in Waterford and the south east.

They had connections with other groups in Europe particularly in Britain. They had close links with the BUF Irish Branch, which was mainly made up of Anglo Irish ex British Army officers.

The Blueshirts burned down the Communist Party headquarters in Dublin and amazingly no one was killed.

They sought to organise in the 6 counties but were largely unsucessful, although a lot of men from the North went to Spain to fight for Franco with O'Duffy.

I don't know why the revisionist attitude within this country seeks to glorify and justify the pathetic record of the Free State government and its bastard child the Blueshirts.

Sir, you should merely keep your quiet shame, that you have some connections to this period, by keeping it to yourself. It's not something to be proud of

by Magneto Sat Jan 03, 2004 14:51

The tales about how the SP will fight the fascists are growing tiresome. This is not a case of nothern protestants having some romantic attachment to British Fascists. Far from it, they are carrying out attcks on a daily basis on ethnic minorities. You cannot admit this, despite the facts outlined above. THen you would have to admit that you might be wrong about other things as well.

by tintin Sat Jan 03, 2004 18:56

It is fact that Loyalists are carrying out disgusting sectarian attacks on Catholics and ethnic minorities like the Chinese and Asians. Nobody is denying that this is taking place. Magneto, could you please stop trying to throw mud by making false accusations that the SP are in some way blind to sectarian attacks perpetrated by Loyalists.

BTW
I was recently looking back on the Lp election results in Sligo. In 1992 they got 17%, in 2002 it was less that 5%. I wonder why? maybe it is because the candidate Declan Bree lied to the people of Sligo. He went around the doorsteps of Sligo in that election promising not to go into government with FF. Of course he broke his promise and decided to prop up a Reynolds FF government that unleashed savage attacks on the working class including the hated water tax. The LP were at one point seen as an alternative in Sligo now because of the actions of Bree and the LP leadership they are seen to be a bunch or liars that can't be trusted.

by Congratulations Mr Brennan Mon Jan 05, 2004 15:52

Cathal Brennan above post shows the complete failure of the history sylabus in this country. Firstly, the C na G government was almost unique amongst the newborn state in post WWI, in that it handed power over (including full control of the armed forces, with no imposed restrictions on their power), despite the fact that a decade previous they had been involved in a bloody civil war with the leaders and supporters of Fianna Fail. Despite the fears of a collapse in to anarchy or communism, the C na G government RESPECTED the will of the Irish people and handed power over. Could Mr. Brennan inform me of another post WWI newly formed state that expereinced such a peacfeul transistion of power.

The Blueshirts did not take over the ACA, Mr. Brennan. The ACA were a group of Free State soliders who in the aftermath of FF coming to power were coming under ILLEGAL pressures from released IRA men. C na G meetings were being broken up by force and ACA men were being physically threatened and on a few occasions attacked by recently released IRA men. No protection was being provided for the pro-treaty political parties and the ACA filled a vacum. The blueshirts could not have taken over the ACA as the only reason the blueshirt came into existence was that the ACA adopted blue shirts as their unifrom.


Mr Brennan you said that the ACA were fascist because "They drew their support from the bases that traditionally support fascist groups, the wealthy and middle classes, large landowners and the church hierarchy." This is another sign of the Irish Education systems failure. Firstly if you look at the regions were blueshirts were most popular, it was in regions in Munster such as Limerick, Cork, Waterford, Tipperary and East Clare. The average supporter was either male or female (where records survive it would appear that Blueshirt membership was about 30% female), under the age of 30, were not land owners, and didn't appear to be primarily eldest sons. Even those that were landowners were not, were not LARGE LANDOWNERS, they were mid sized farmers primarily those with most to lose from an end to free trade as they could export cattle to the UK competively but in a closed market would be too small to benefit from the economies of scale to continue exporting to the UK, and would be unable to make a decent living through tillage as DeV may have wished.






Mr. Brennan you claimed that "They modeled themselves on other fascist groupings in Europe at the time and did subscribe to corporatism. " This is undoubtadely the only time in your triade where you came close to the truth if such a thing exists. Undoubtably, they were modeled in style, but not in substance, on the Italian Fascist movement, and were at best vaguely committed to corporatism but only on the lines issued by the Vatican Encycial of the 1930s, they held no truck with that of Mussolini.



Mr Brennan said that firstly "They had connections with other groups in Europe particularly in Britain. They had close links with the BUF Irish Branch, which was mainly made up of Anglo Irish ex British Army officers." later on he said that "They (the ACA) sought to organise in the 6 counties but were largely unsucessful, although a lot of men from the North went to Spain to fight for Franco with O'Duffy." Peculiar, one one hand Mr. Brennan believes that the Blueshirts had close links with the British fascists, but then he goes on to say that O' Duffy sought to organise in the North. Mr. Brennan is right at the second shot, O'Duffy was interested in organising in the North but only with a view to re-unification. The links were the BUF were minimal, and of little consequence.

Mr. Brennan, you appear to be a self righous man and have a wish to find some fascist somewhere. You would be much better serveed to look at those who supported the Nazi war effort through active military actions and attempts to subvert the democractically elected Southern Government of the time and divert your ire towards them. At present you are part of a great big myth making excerise, pity you don't realise that.

by El Greko Mon Jan 05, 2004 16:26

The section of the Blueshirt organisation that went to Spain to fight for Franco were clearly complete jokers. It is surprising that in conversation with older Spanish people who experienced the civil war that the Irish are remembered as pro-Franco despite those that died on the republican side.

I have heard that the blueshirts fought only one battle in central Spain where, due to incredible stupidity, they fired on Spanish fascist troops. They then spent the rest of the war in the whorehouses of the southern coast.