Yet Another Ivana Bacik pub quiz

by Anti-Capitalist Labour Mon Dec 08, 2003 12:44

"Ivana Bacik's glamorous European Election Campaign"

'Glamorous'. It says it all. What think you LY?

by LY Member Mon Dec 08, 2003 12:52

Its our choice of language, but I'm not surprised to find that Trots are hostile to a gay event.

by SY member Mon Dec 08, 2003 14:38

The discrimination directed towards the LGBT community is a product of capitalism and it's concept of 'the family'. The Labour Party are a capitalist party and are tied to this system that creates discrimination against the LGBT community, and other minority groups.

I think that a vote for Labour is a wasted vote. A vote for the Socialist Party in the European and Local elections is a clear vote against discrimination, and a vote for rights for all regardless of nationality, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, language etc.

by LY Member Mon Dec 08, 2003 14:45

Thats why she will get votes and support. That is why she deserves support. In the past the CWI/Militant were hostile to Gay-Rights and Gay-Organisations. That has not been forgotten.

Homo-phobia isnt just a product of Caapitalism, it wont just disappear afer a Trotskyism seizes power. It is deep rooted prejudice and bigotry which must be fought wherever it crops up.


Your juvenile comments are not going to win you any support, you have no profile amongst the LGBT Community. Labour Has.

by LY Member Mon Dec 08, 2003 14:53

"Demands for gay liberation were ignored in public, but behind the scenes were treated with contempt. Some CWI leaders argued privately that homosexuality always increased during periods of social disintegration, such as occurred during the fall of the Roman Empire. Its emergence as an issue now was simply one more symptom of capitalism’s degeneration, and impending collapse."

From:
CHAPTER SIX

THE LONELY PASSION OF TED GRANT

Political Cults of the Left & Right.
By Denis Tourish

by tintin Mon Dec 08, 2003 15:25

To say that the SP or the CWI is homophobic is absurd. The CWI has many many LGB members including some of those in the leadership. What Tourish is claiming is NOT the position of the CWI and is just another slur that has been thrown.

As for the LP being the party for LGBT to vote for that is just crazy. It is capitalism with it constant need to find scapegoats for the problems that it creates fosters and whips up hatred of the LGBT community. The LP are a capitalist party. When they have been in power they have cut public services and attacked the living and working conditions of workers.

by LY Member Mon Dec 08, 2003 15:31

Labour has a profile within the Gay Community. That is why Gay People are organising a Benefit for Ivana and not for Clare Daly.

Labour has consistently fought for Gay Rights, you are bringing yourself and your party into disrepute with the nonsense you are spouting.

by tintin Mon Dec 08, 2003 15:38

I am not spouting any nonsense. The SP is NOT a homophobic party. The SP support fully the struggle for LGBT rights. I am not claiming that the LP are homophobic. A overwhelming number of LP members are not homophobic, many have very good records in fighting for the rights of the LGBT community. What I am saying is that it is capitalism that whips up hatred against the LGBT community in the same way it does against ethnic minorities. In times of economic crisis capitalism will always want to divide the working class and blame a section of it. Today it may be Travellers, tomorrow it could be Romanians or Homosexuals. The LP are a capitalist party, they support capitalism. When they have been in power they have cut public services and attacked the living conditions of workers thus adding to the climate in which hatred against minorities and the LGBT community can grow. therefore I woudl say to those in the LGBT community that they should vote for parties that will not sell out and will not attack public services.

by réchúiseach Mon Dec 08, 2003 15:44

have a réchúiseach read of this:
http://neworleans.indymedia.org/news/2003/12/712.php
and on a holy day as well.

by pat c Mon Dec 08, 2003 15:45

This is an outrageous attack on gays who have decided to support someone who has proven herself as a friend by supporting our community over the years. The attack on the Labour Party in this instance is nonsense. Despite my many, many criticisms of that Party it has always played an honourable role in the fight for equality for the LGBT Community.

Turning up at the Pride March as the SP have done is not enough to establish a profile.

To suggest that Capitalism is the cause of Gay Oppression is nonsense. In all of the "Socialist". Degenerated, Deformed or any other type of "Workers States" there has been Gay Oppression. Theres need for a lot more education and consciousness raising amongst the Leninist Left.

TinTin is not just bringing the SP into disrepute, hes bringing it into contempt.

by Oscar Mon Dec 08, 2003 16:00

Its brilliant for the gay community that Ivana is so well disposed to them.
Pity Ivana wasn't so well disposed to the working class, some of them are gay too, but if they don't drink in the Morrison or go to Trinners they can go to hell.

by pat c Mon Dec 08, 2003 16:08

This is effectively an attack on the right of Gays. Does any rational person really beleve thats its Capitalism which is responsible for Gay Repression? Or that sexism and rape will disappear once the CWI achieve World Domination?

This is a juvenile mechanistic view. A comment from Stephen Boyd, Michael O'Brien or Brian Cahill would be welcome.

by Bozo watch Mon Dec 08, 2003 17:19

Stop it you are cracking me up!!!!
Asking Stephen Boyd to comment on sexism.

by Canteen Kevin Mon Dec 08, 2003 17:22

and well you know it - just because the so-called Labour party are allegedly gay friendly we should support a Trinity educated barrister to get on the euro gravy train with the Labour party? The Labour party are a F**king disgrace, lock, stock and barrel. Don't give me any shit about there being decent members who have supported the anti-bin tax campaign etc., a massive question mark hangs over anybody who stays with that pack of careerists.

Remember the "Spring tide" of 1992, Labour gets 33 seats and proceeds to shit on the electorate, arrogantly taking peoples hatred of Fianna Fail for worship of their elected TD's. One of the first things Labour did when it sold itself (and didn't stay bought this time) to FF was to install sons and dayghters as advisors etc.

Ivana seems to have a fan club in the gay community, it is a pity that representatives of the community seem to be so politically clueless that they are cheerleading for one of the most mercenary right wing versions of a labour party in anywhere in existence. If some gay FF gobshite, usual snake on all other issues, was running on a gay-friendly platform, would you be encouraging people to vote for their candidacy, and would you still be raising the sceptre of homophobia at anybody who voiced similar objections.

by Paddy Mon Dec 08, 2003 17:23

Going off the current debate a bit: Whats Ivana's position on the proposed European Constituion, which all on the radical left would agree is going to be a huge attack on democracy and public services. Will she do a u-turn like she did on the Nice referendum?
Ivana deserves respect for her sterling work on the abortion issue and the other human rights issues she has campaigned on over the years, but that does'nt mean she deserves electoral support. Socialists have no place in a campaign to elect another PES MEP who will follow the neo-liberal diktats of that Blairite alliance.

So, yes when Ivana is fighting for reproductive rights or gay rights we should be supporting her. For the Euro elections we should be working to have a joint candidate of the radical left to challenge the cosy concensus which includes the Labour Party. As for the socialists that are still in the LP: make the break and help build a new broad party of the working class, as has happened in Scotland, France , Italy etc.

by elfin ryhmer Mon Dec 08, 2003 17:36

so I won't be running on an abstention, non resident, pacifist, euro-m€p platform.
but when i get around to it, i undertake to share the salary with everyone who votes for me, all you'll have to do is present me or my office with a photograph of your ballot with a nice big tick next to my name. If I get in on first preferences you all get a few drinks out of it but that will be all.
[i also promise not to go declaring independence]

by pat c Mon Dec 08, 2003 17:37

What pro gay rights camnpaigns have you been involved in?

Ivana has got the support of the LGBT community because of the consistent work she has carried out. You so called leftists make me puke. Everything will be perfect after you have your revolution.

It used to be Labour Must Wait.

Now the far left slogan seems to be the LGBT must wait.

Paddy

Its important that the LGBT issue be highlighted on this thread. Its strange that the Trots have nothing better to do than attack gays who have organised a fund raiser for someone who is an outstanding campaigner on the issue. I wonder if I will be voting at all but if I do, the disgusting attitude taken by the far "Left" to gayliberation could drive me to vote for Labour.

by eeeerrrrrrr Mon Dec 08, 2003 17:39

isn't it?
isn't it?
yes it bloody is.
wasn't Foyle not good enough for her?

by Bi Mon Dec 08, 2003 17:55

Thats how I feel after reading the abuse here. The guy (?) from the 'Socialist' Party does not seem to have any conception of what homophbia really is. We need liberation now not in a 100 years time after your revolution. It was also pointed out that so far in all of your so called Socialist countries gayz have always been down trodden.

Then we get canteen Kevin, what an amusing name. Your ignorance has convinced me to go to Ivana Quiz tonight. In the 3 years that I have been out in the community the only party who has really been involved in campaigning for my rights has been Labour Youth and the Labour Party. The alphabet groups have turned up on the Dublin Pride Parades, thats the the last we hear from them for another year.

This debate has been highlighted on the Bi-Irish News Group. We will remember who our true friends are.

by Canteen Kevin Mon Dec 08, 2003 18:01

"What pro gay rights camnpaigns have you been involved in? "

Do I have to submit a detailed CV before I can comment about the shitness of the Labour party? - your elevation of gay issues and your twisting of my comments to suggest some anti-gay angle makes ME puke. (I was involved in the (successful) campaign in 1990 to have UCD gay Soc. recognised by the college in case you think I'm ducking the issue - not that it's anybodys business)

Your lazy stereotyping of you so-called leftists" displays al lthe ignorance and caricature often directed against gays. "Everything will be perfect after you have your revolution." What are you on about? My main point is that it is sickening to see people actively progressive on social/human rights issues getting sucked into the career mill of the Labour party and what's more, expecting us to rejoice.

LGBT must wait? No. The FF style co-option of the gay community in the hope of electoral gain should wait , but unfortunately you seem to be getting carried away by one issue to the detriment of others. The Labour party is pink for a different reason than you may think.

by Oscar Mon Dec 08, 2003 18:04

Now:
"This debate has been highlighted on the Bi-Irish News Group. We will remember who our true friends are."

Then:
'Rumours that Mr Brendan Howlin is gay cost him votes in the 1997 contest for the leadership of the Labour Party, The Irish Times has established.

Mr Howlin's campaign team was last night assessing the impact of his decision to publicly reject the rumours this time round. In an interview in The Star yesterday, Mr Howlin denied he was gay in response to a question put to him by a journalist.

Three of those who voted in the 1997 leadership contest told The Irish Times privately that the rumours influenced their decision on how to vote. One confirmed that they would have voted for Mr Howlin were it not for the rumours.

Mr Howlin lost that contest to Mr Ruairí Quinn by 37 votes to 27 in an election in which the parliamentary party and ruling General Council voted. It is conceivable that the issue could have cost him victory then.'

It's a socialite vote not a socialist one.

by tintin Tue Dec 09, 2003 00:01

Pat,

I just want to clear up a few things. You seem to be under the impression that I believe that the LP do not have members who are genuinly involved in struggling for LGBT rights. I explicitly stated that they DO HAVE members involved in this struggle.

Another thing I do believe that the oppression of the gay community is linked in many ways to capitalism. I explained my position. Capitalism will always seek a scape goat to blame the ills of society on and divide the working class. This is a major reason for sectarianism, racism and homophobia. In saying this I am NOT saying that those fighting for LGBT rights should wait until after the revolution. These rights should be fought for now just like any other struggles. workers should not wait until after the revolution for decent pay and conditions, ethnic minorities should not wait for the revolution to fight racism and the LGBT community should not wait for the revolution for their rights. I am attempting to show tis that if we want miinority rights not to be under constant attack we must link these struggles with the struggle to end capitalism. What I am also saying is that capitalist parties like Labour, Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil will only bring attacks on living conditions and will attempt to use divide and rule tactics in society.

by Factfinder Tue Dec 09, 2003 11:58

Pym Fortune was quite progressive on Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual issues.

by Gay communist - none Tue Dec 09, 2003 15:02

I won't be voting for the Labour Party even if Joe Orton is running for them. Gay rights are a class issue as are womens rights, disability rights etc, because they are POOR. The Labour Party may seek to enshrine laws that combat discrimination but they have decided that capitalism is 'the only way', and therefore to attempt to 'humanise' or "regulate" the most inhuman exploitation. They have even turned their backs on real social democracy and now argue for a controlled market economy. Middle class gays should vote Labour as they represent their interests but the working class should steer clear.

I am also annoyed about the fact that a Labour TD has been awarded a sainthood by the middle class media for exploiting male prostitutes in Dublin! I wonder what Ivana and the GLBT community think of that?

by Jerry Atrick - OAP Tue Dec 09, 2003 23:21

Let's take a stroll down memory lane. The 1980s, the SLP (of sweet memory) and you were in the IWG (of some sort of memory) who were in the SLP denouncing all the reformists (ie everyone). You gave a fiery speech demanding the expusion of Matt Merrigan and Noel Brown for their reformism. It was great knockabout stuff. Can you give us some memoirs from your salad days?

by the by... there are a lot of people who cant wait 100 years or however long it takes for the overthrow of capitalism (say 19,000 children who die each day etc). But I fear they'll be long in their graves (if they get one) before the refomism you so robustly denounced in your hay-day does a hand's turn for them.

Tell us more....

by Stephen Boyd - Socialist Party Wed Dec 10, 2003 00:53

The premise for this discussion/disagreement is false. It has been too narrowly focused on one aspect, of one person’s politics. A number of comments have praised Ivana Bacik for her active campaigning role in the promotion of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transsexual rights. I know little of what Ivana Bacik has done in relation to this, however I will take and accept the claims that have been made. Others have praised Ivana for her work in campaigning for a woman’s right to choose. Because this aspect of Ivana Bacik’s work is more public I know that this praise is warranted.
However my contribution to this discussion will not focus solely on Ivana Bacik because that is were I believe the falseness of many of the arguments being put forward lies. This discussion should focus not so much on Ivana Bacik and what she has and hasn’t done in relation to particular issues, it should instead focus on the record of the party she has chosen to represent in the European Elections – The Labour Party.
By choosing or probably accepting an invitation to stand as the Labour candidate in the elections Ivana is also taking on board of all of the "sins" of that party and what it has become. For many decades the Labour Party was a party that had within its ranks many of the best left political activists in Ireland. On occasions reflecting its working class base and membership the Labour Party did fight for many important reforms. Having said that the majority of its leadership in the last analysis, when the "chips were down" always supported the capitalist system and the Irish ruling class. For many decades the CWI and the various groups of the Fourth International to which we previously belonged to pursued a tactic of entrism in most of the major parties of the ex-social democracy and also in some countries within the Stalinist Communist Parties. This was a tactic developed and argued for by Trotsky at a time when the forces of genuine Marxism had been reduced to very small numbers, this was for many reasons, most significant of which was the Stalinisation of the Third International. However Lenin and Trotsky also argued for variations of the tactic of entrism prior to the "victory" of the forces of Stalinism in the Comintern. The main purpose of entrism as a tactic was to join the parties of the social democracy; which in most countries were mass parties; within which were some of the best trade unionists and political activists, in an attempt to recruit them to the ideas of Marxism. Another aim was to attempt to build support for the programme of Marxism - to align ourselves with the best of the left reformists in order to push the parties of the social democracy to the left. This would in turn assist the struggles of the working class and also help create the conditions for the development of mass left reformist parties, in turn this alongside the objective political conditions that would give rise to such developments would assist the creation of mass Marxist revolutionary parties. This is a very simplistic explanation of the tactic of entrism, but I think it is important to state why we pursued it, as I know some will say that they think we are being hypocritical criticising Ivana for joining the Labour Party when we ourselves were once members.
We decided to abandon this tactic because we believe that the parties of the ex-social democracy have fundamentally changed they have become open bourgeois parties, and that they cannot in anyway facilitate the struggles of the working class. Also working class activists are no longer active within these parties the majority of whose members are now careerists and petit bourgeois. The ideas of Blairism dominate these parties internationally and also in Ireland. Pat Rabbitte is the Irish Tony Blair, attempting to create his own Irish version of "New Labour".
However there is a fundamental difference between joining parties of the social democracy, as a separate organised force (the claim that we were a party within a party was 100% true), with the aim of in effect using these parties as a vehicle through which to strengthen the forces of Marxism, and to create the political conditions to build mass revolutionary Marxist parties and what Ivana is in effect doing.
Ivana Bacik may be a credible campaigner for LGB&T rights and on the issue of a woman’s right to choose, but were does she stand all of the other main issues facing the working class? Ivana Bacik would not be a candidate for the Labour Party if they did not trust her politics. In otherwords if they did not believe that she would be a loyal follower of the party leadership’s ideas and agenda.
The Socialist Party will be standing a candidate in the Dublin constituency in the European elections. Therefore the choice for socialists and lefts will be – do you vote for a genuine socialist candidate or for the candidate of the pro-capitalist Labour Party. In the last analysis it actual doesn’t matter that the Labour candidate has a good record on a number of issues including LGB&T rights, its how that candidate and the party they represent stands on all other class issues which is key.
What is Ivana Bacik and her party’s position on Social Partnership? What is their position on the bin tax and service charges? What is their position on imperialist wars, i.e. Iraq? What is Ivana and the Labour Party’s position on the European Union? Do they support the neo-liberal agenda of the EU or do they support a socialist Europe? What is their position on privatisation etc, etc, etc. By standing for the Labour Party at this juncture in history Ivana Bacik is helping to facilitate the anti-working class agenda of the Labour Party leadership.
(As an aside, the Labour Party for the majority of its existence did not campaign for or support the legalisation of homosexuality and the majority of its members and leaders had the same homophobic attitudes as others in society.) Lesbian, gay, bisexual and transsexual rights are a class issue. It is correct to say that the oppression of lesbians, gays, bisexuals and transsexuals is a product of the class system – it has been a conscious policy pursued by capitalism. However it is simplistic to say that this oppression and homophobia has been created simply by capitalism. Like all bigotry and oppression it is a product of various class systems over numerous millennia. As a Marxist I believe that the oppression and bigotry and discrimination suffered by all minorities can only be fully ended, and true equally won with the overthrow of capitalism and the creation of a socialist system.
However, in the meantime the struggle against this bigotry and discrimination must be waged now. The struggle for reforms under capitalism is key and should be a fundamental part of the work of all socialists and socialist organisations.
It is also important to state that the LGB&T "community" is not a homogenous group in society. The class divisions within this community mirror those of the rest of society. So whilst all LGB&T’s suffer a common bigotry and oppression they don’t all share the same class interests. For example the level of bigotry and oppression suffered by someone who is LGB or T who is from a working class background is different from someone who is from a middle class background or from a bourgeois background – as is the level of economic oppression that they suffer. In the last analysis a working class lesbian has more in common with a working class heterosexual woman than they have with a middle class or bourgeois lesbian.
It is wrong to say that the CWI has been or is homophobic. It is also wrong to say that we have neglected the struggle for LGB&T rights. To make such statements is to make an impressionistic analysis. Yes superficially you could say that the struggle for LGB&T rights has not been to the forefront of our agenda. But what that reflects is not a "backward" attitude or a form of homophobia but instead it reflects the weakness of the resources and the forces that we have. Unfortunately the Socialist Party is a "small" organisation. We have to pick and choose where best to direct the resources that we have. I think (or hope) that most participants in this discussion would accept that it would be wrong for the Socialist Party to direct the majority of its resources to the fight for LGB&T rights at this time at the expense of the anti-bin tax struggle. This is just one example of what I mean.
Members of the Socialist Party and the CWI have and do actively campaign for LGB&T rights. I was at one time a full time worker for lesbian and gay rights. (At that stage the term LGB&T had not been coined because in effect there was, and still is discrimination against bisexuals and transsexuals within the " lesbian and gay community"). I was involved in establishing the first ever Lesbian and Gay resource centre in Ireland. I was one of the organisers of the first Irish Lesbian and Gay Film Festival, I was once the editor of the Munster Lesbian and Gay Community News (a supplement to GCN) etc, etc. I am just making that point because of a snide remark, which was made earlier in this thread to a request that I comment on this issue by Pat C.
Therefore I would agree with the argument that it is in fact mistaken for members of the LGB&T community who are socialists or lefts to support Ivana Bacik’s candidacy, not because of her record on this issue but because of the party which she will be representing.
On the 11 June 2004, I would call on lesbian, gays, bisexuals and transsexuals to vote for the Socialist Party candidate in the European election and for our candidates in the local elections, not for the pro-capitalist Labour Party.

by Militant Wed Dec 10, 2003 13:10

Steven you should forget about answering every criticism (most of which are sectarian rubbish) of the Socialist Party on Indymedia and apply your talents to what you are paid for by the party members: editing the Voice and organising in the Trade Unions.

In comparison to the old Militant paper the Voice is a pale shadow. The latest edition was one of the worst, with nothing of substance and little real news.

As for Trade Union activity, the SP only has any real influence in the CPSU in the south and even that power base seems to be waning. No organised presence in most major unions. Gone are the days when Militant put the shits up the union bosses.

Steven, you dont need to counter every fool who has a pop on indynedia, most of them are just doing it to get a response. Ignore them and get on with the serious work. And yes, I should'nt be reading the crap either!

by Earth Citizen Wed Dec 10, 2003 14:53

To the individual who posted above at 12.21pm on Tuesday, you are beneath contempt. That name you invented is very insulting to senior citizens.
As for your shit-stiring about Pat, you do not back it up with any evidence, and anyway we have all done and said things in the past which people can throw at us, and I have no doubt that includes you.

by Earth Citizen Wed Dec 10, 2003 15:15

I meant 10.21, not 12.21

by pat c Wed Dec 10, 2003 20:31

the blandishments of the trolls demanding that i answer boyd proved too much..

canteen kevin

my apologies. i believe you. there are trolls who just attack, you seem different now. he tone of your earlier comment got my back up.

you probably know me ad m own record, i have no illusions in the lp but the attacks made on what s merely fundraiser. had to b answered.

will you only work with people who compltely agree with you? i suspect i have more in common with you on a lot of issues than you have with the sp.

i continue to believe tht there are decent people in labour and ivana is one of them.

by pat c Wed Dec 10, 2003 21:11

tintin

i reacted strongly to your postings because i felt you were preaching. i think you are genuinely committed to fighting prejudice but that your comments were condescending.

jerryatrick

some people grow up, and learn while they o so. i wonder where a lot of my contemporaries from 1978 are now? i'm still involved in struggle. if you are of my vintage & are posting here i suspect you are also still involved. are your opinions the ame as thy were in 78?

Stephen Boyd

"Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transsexual rights. I know little of what Ivana Bacik has done in relation to this, however I will take and accept the claims that have been made. Others have praised Ivana for her work in campaigning for a woman’s right to choose. Because this aspect of Ivana Bacik’s work is more public I know that this praise is warranted. "

good for you.
.". For many decades the CWI and the various groups of the Fourth International to which we previously belonged to pursued a tactic of entrism in most of the major parties of the ex-social democracy and also in some countries within the Stalinist Communist Parties. "

and the only reason you are not in labour is because you were thrown out.

"We decided to abandon this tactic because we believe that the parties of the ex-social democracy have fundamentally changed they have become open bourgeois parties, and that they cannot in anyway facilitate the struggles of the working class."

but you still call for the building of mass pary, which you accept will be reformist and in which you will form a revolutionary faction.

its just a question of a different reformism.

"Also working class activists are no longer active within these parties the majority of whose members are now careerists and petit bourgeois."

there is no qualitive difference betwen the lp of today and that of the 70s & 80s. militant stayed in the LP during 3 coaltion govts which brought in cutbacks. even while these cutbackswere appening militnat were preaching that there was no alvation outside of labour.

there are good activists in the lp especially in ly.

."What is Ivana Bacik and her party’s position on Social Partnership? "

but stephen you have hailed the period when trotsky was in power as the height of socialist democracy. a period when unions became organs of he state. when strikes were banned. hen labour was militarised thanks to leon .

i oppose social partnership but it pales in comparison to your plans for the unions.

"(However it is simplistic to say that this oppression and homophobia has been created simply by capitalism. Like all bigotry and oppression it is a product of various class systems over numerous millennia. As a Marxist I believe that the oppression and bigotry and discrimination suffered by all minorities can only be fully ended, and true equally won with the overthrow of capitalism and the creation of a socialist system."

but it wont simply disappear or wither away, the fight against bigotry would have to continue. look at the examples in the various socialist states. you do give a better formulation than tintin.

"It is wrong to say that the CWI has been or is homophobic. "

i dont think the sp is homophobic. the excerpt from the Denis Tourish book referesrs to the 70s & 80s. the lyer shd have made this clear or i shd ve pointed it out. but denis tourish still stands over it.in a communication to me today he has stated that leading members of militant made homophobic comments in his prescence.

you seem unable to accept that any mistakes ever occured in your organisation.

"It is also wrong to say that we have neglected the struggle for LGB&T rights. thUnfortunately the Socialist Party is a "small" organisation. We have to pick and choose where best to direct the resources that we have. "

its not just the sp, its a problem with all the far left. they turn up once a year at the pride parade.

". I am just making that point because of a snide remark, which was made earlier in this thread to a request that I comment on this issue by Pat C."

it was not a snide remark. the formulations of tintin were so crude that i sought clarification from leading members of the sp. note that i also asked 2 other spers to comment. your past record is commendable.

but the sp have no present standing in the area. its not just ivana. a lot of lp members are active on these issues.

and once again there is the memory of the gy oppression which took place in every "socialist" state which ever existed.

i remain unconvinced as to why lgbts shd vote for the sp. your circular arguments and preaching do not convince.

btw

do you really think you are going to win over people by letting your sillier members compare ivana to a fascist? would you not condemn this

by Charlie Foxtror Thu Dec 11, 2003 14:54

Pat,

You are a bitter anti-militant. You actually support the policies of the Labour Party over those of the Socialist Party. Why don't you read the points that Stephen was making? Instead you put out all that crap about CWI being homophobic! Anyone that knows the SP will know that they are not homophobic!

Your only source of information is from Denis Tourish who is an imbittered academic who left the CWI for personal reasons that he had with others, and then a few years later comes out with all this rubbish about the SP.

Pat , for the record Militant were not 'kicked out'. In Ireland 12 Militant supporters were kicked out. They had a lot more than 12 members! A decision was made to withdraw from the party at a certain stage. So we did decide to leave- expulsions were not the reason! It was because the LP are not a credible force for activists.

by John Meehan Thu Dec 11, 2003 16:03

Pat C quotes Denis Tourish as his source : appatently leading Militant/CWI leaders made homphopic comments about 20 years ago.

So what?

Even if this is true, for argument's sake, is there much point in raking over the coals?

I have worked with various members and ex-members of the Socialist Party in campaigns such as the Alliance for a No Vote - a very successful united campaign against Bertie Ahern's lifer referendum - and anyone who attempted to say the SP was "homophobic" - today - would have been laughed out of it.

by pat c Thu Dec 11, 2003 18:18

So what? I think you should be asking why are the likes of Boyd still denying there was ever homophobia in militant. Do you also really see nothing wrong in the way the quiz and gays supporting Ivana were originally attacked?

by pat c Thu Dec 11, 2003 18:31

Are You afraid to use hyour real name?

"You are a bitter anti-militant. You actually support the policies of the Labour Party over those of the Socialist Party. "

No, I defended the SP when Barbour was being attacked. I defended the SPs talks with the PUP. When Ruth Coppinger took over Joes seat, I defended her against charges of nepotism.

I alaso make my differences with the SP clear.

There are some activists in the LP who I would have a lot i more in common with than I would have with the SP.

"Why don't you read the points that Stephen was making? "

I did and replied to them.

"Instead you put out all that crap about CWI being homophobic! "

I believe it had homophobic members in the past.

"Anyone that knows the SP will know that they are not homophobic! "

I dont think the SP are homophobic. Like John M you are putting words in my mouth. I do think the early SP posts on this thread were crude, patronising and showed a complete lack of understanding of the nature of Gay Oppession.

"Your only source of information is from Denis Tourish "

I personally heard members of Militant make casual homophobic or prejudical remarks about gays, I think it was more from ignorance than ingrained prejudice. This was in the past, none of them are in the SP.

"Pat , for the record Militant were not 'kicked out'. In Ireland 12 Militant supporters were kicked out. .... So we did decide to leave- expulsions were not the reason! It was because the LP are not a credible force for activists"

But those were leading members , I still think you are splitting hairs. You want a mass party. you accept it will be reformist. You will form a revolutionary faction in it.

Some people prefer to fight for Socialist politics in the reformist Labour party.

I dont see a big difference.

by Enough already Thu Dec 11, 2003 18:38

There is homophobia in the Labour Party. And Ivana is running for the Labour Party.
Remember Brendan Howlin. What planet are you on? You are beginning to make the SP's simplistic arguments look deep.

Why can't just say that you are advocating a vote for Ivana (because of good work or whatever) but not for the Labour Party and then maybe we can put this nonsense to bed.
Unless of course you are advocating a vote for the Labour Party.

by Angry SP/CWI member Thu Dec 11, 2003 18:38

Pat C et al are determined to attack the SP. There is no evidence that the CWI are homophobic. Where is it written? Where in the publications of the CWI does it even hint at homophobia? Where in the official publications of the CWI does it say we support the state! or loyalist paramilitaries! etc. Pat Corcoran and others are determined to put out slurs. He repeats his lies so much be is beginning to believe himself!

On homophobia: we are opposed to ALL form of discrimination that exist under capitalism. We believe that we should struggle against discrimination now, and that that struggle is linked to the struggle to overthrow capitalism

On the State: We are opposed to the capitalist state! The Gardaí have been used against us in the past few months, we had members sent to jail by the capitalist police and capitalist courts. I don't know where Pat C and co get their lies from!

On Loyalism: We do not support loyalism! W e do not support terrorist tactics. Just because we oppose terrorism done by republicans and we stand for workers' unity some on Indymedia call us loyalists! Pat C an his mates may not be into unity between Catholic and Protestent workers- but we are. We also oppose individual terrorism as counter productive and undemocratic.

by pat c Thu Dec 11, 2003 18:50

"Pat C et al are determined to attack the SP. "

read what i wrote above

"There is no evidence that the CWI are homophobic. Where is it written? "

in the denis tourish book. we are talking about the past.

"or loyalist paramilitaries! etc. Pat Corcoran and others are determined to put out slurs. He repeats his lies so much be is beginning to believe himself!"

Stop raving and read what i wrote. I said you were right to engage with the pup.


"On the State: We are opposed to the capitalist state! The Gardaí have been used against us in the past few months, we had members sent to jail by the capitalist police and capitalist courts. I don't know where Pat C and co get their lies from!"

scroll up this thread. i made no such accusations. what lies? you live in a fantasy world.

i do point to your belief that the ussr under trotsky was the closest to socialist democracy ever achieved. in that period unions became an organ of the state. strikes were banned, labour was militarised.


"Pat C an his mates may not be into unity between Catholic and Protestent workers- but we are. We also oppose individual terrorism as counter productive and undemocratic."

You are obviously deranged. writing this after i have actually defended the SP when slurs were thrown against Jim Barbour.

i am into unity of workers but i dont believe it can be built by making concessions to loyalism. in my opinion you misuse trotskys writings on individual terrorism. his later writings make his support for national liberation struggles quite clear.

by pat c Thu Dec 11, 2003 19:00

"There is homophobia in the Labour Party. "

i'm sure that there are some homophobic lp members. but there are plenty of lpers who have built a profile in the lgbt community.

"Remember Brendan Howlin."

that was appalling, but i dont think quinn was behind it. it was likely the work of gobshites.

"Why can't just say that you are advocating a vote for Ivana (because of good work or whatever) but not for the Labour Party and then maybe we can put this nonsense to bed. Unless of course you are advocating a vote for the Labour Party."

i'm not even sure that i will vote at all! i was annoyed at the crudity of the original sp attacks on this thread.

if i was voting i might vote for ivana as an individual, but i would not support labour as a party. i do think that there are some genuine socialists in labour, especially in LY. they are just as entitled to be called socialists as the sp are.

i wouldnt support the sp as a party either but IF i was voting there are some sp members i could vote for.

by Richie Keane - Labour LGBT Wed Jan 07, 2004 03:03 keane.richard at eircom dot net

I supposeafter a lot of the amazing threads on this topic since DEC 8th 203, there's no point in inviting membership of the Labour LGBT Working Group. This is part of the Labour Equality section. We held the FIRST Labour Lesbian and Gay Equality Forum in June 2003, participated in Pride, hosted Outyouth Manchester and Greenbow in the Mansion House in July and are working on partnership rights at the moment. If you are a labour party member you can email [email protected] for more info . Best Wishes to Ivana in June !

by Lily the Pink Wed Jan 07, 2004 19:02

"We held the FIRST Labour Lesbian and Gay Equality Forum in June 2003"

Did Brendan and Emmett attend?

by Memory Server Wed Jan 07, 2004 20:56

This could'nt be the same Richie Keane, who as an ardent member of Workers Party never ceased to denounce the social democrats of the Labour Party? No one was revolutionary enough for him then. Being then a member of Labour Youth I recall that his speciality of the time was opposing what he liked to call 'fluffy liberals' ie people who emphasised the 'social' struggles as opposed to the class struggle.

Apologies if it is a different Richie Keane. If its the same person you should admit that you were very wrong and have now dumped marxism, class struggle etc. or you should explain to us how you reconcile your revolutionary views with supporting a 'wooly liberal' in next years Euro elections.