Cartoon of naked Sharon devouring infant wins top UK prize

by Ali H. Mon Dec 01, 2003 10:48

As usual Avi H. you dodge the question of why Israelis are allowed to publish cartoons offensive to Christians belittling the cruxifiction of Christ, or "blood libeling" their own Orthodox brethern, and yet political/religious satire by others is not allowed.

Your silence shows you to be a self-centered racist supremacist with no respect for other cultures/religions.

by Brad Sun Nov 30, 2003 18:28

I'm not sure I got the real grist of your thoughtful article. I'm not sure what you
want exactly? Palestinians & Israelis to fight their battle here on Indy, or not?
But, I would add this small observation: Why do you assume that Sharon is eating
a Palestinian child? Is there something in the drawing that leads you to that conclusion? Did the cartoonist made that claim? Or do you just take the Israeli press's interpretation of it as truth?
Personally, I think it would be very "kosher" if it is a Palestinian child.....God know, that
man has caused the death of enough of them. But, I think it's rather ambivalent as to what exactly that cartoon is depicting, besides the obvious: that Sharon is a killer, who kills in order to get elected.

by iosaf Sun Nov 30, 2003 16:05

and to others, if only it were here, if only the hatred, accusation and counter accusation, historical claim and counter claim, were here and not in the "real world".
If the palestinian people and their supporters, and the israeli people and thier supporters, if the jews and muslims could argue out their problems without blood, murder and perversity here, it would be better. But no, they kill each other, every day, and then see fit to argue it out here, in ireland, in imc uk, in indymedia.

Read this:
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2003/11/282229.html
and the link within:
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2003/11/282186.html
in the comments someone from ireland, ( i presume) made a comment ( i presume they were irish, they refer to ireland and link to ireland's own).
Is indymedia, seen a battleground by the Israelis? Do the supporters of Israel, or the supporters of Sharon think that indymedia is important to their future?

Which brings me to ask: "Is indymedia important to the prosecution of "war"?"

Our network has presence in several war zones, most notably that of Israel v. Palestine and also we have presence in Bagdad. It counts on constant updates and eye witness accounts from these zones, and appears to consistently call for "peaceful resolution". Our network appears to be increasingly understood as supporting either a left wing or "alternative" solution to local and global problems. And we are constantly (I believe) subject to very manipulative and professional pitching by agencies involved in those wars, who _have not_ offered any peacful prospects at all. For a moment consider the "other war".
Today, "El Pais" reports that Spain is paying "too high" a price for the occupation of Iraq, Aznar in his speech: "we must ask what we are doing in Iraq". It is unbelievable, his people _did ask_ what he would do in Iraq, and said "we don't want you to do it".
Last week, he and his minister of Foreign affairs Anna Palacio admitted that "they had made mistakes". Yet the blood goes on.
The last speech by Hussein referred to the forces of the US and UK "never leaving the slough". I thought about it at length, it is interesting to see commentators internalise the phrase perhaps unknowingly, Iraq is reffered to as "the slough", "the quagmire", of Vietnam. But it is _not_ Vietnam.
Nor is it a "slough", be it of arabic allusion, which means very definite things, or western allusion, which I suggest refers to "the slough of despond" of "The Pilgrim's Progress" by John Bunyan.
The Spanish press together with the American press reports that Iraqis danced on the dead bodies and one
[from Reuters: The Spanish were killed by guerrillas firing assault rifles and rocket-propelled grenades. Witnesses said a crowd then descended on the crippled vehicles, kicking the corpses and shouting slogans in support of fugitive dictator Saddam Hussein.

On Sunday morning, youths were jumping on the wreckage and pulling apart one burned-out car.

"We're happy about what happened," said 20-year-old Abdul Qader, a student. "We don't like the Americans or the Spanish."
shouted "]
-how do we find peace, now that they have lost it so badly? Did not the Spanish arrive with "water" for the "victims" of war? Did they not come as "friends"? Well now they are enemies.
Didn't the children sing "guerra no guerra no"? Yes they did. Now they call for Spanish death.
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=42685
Under such circumstances perhaps it would be understandable to see Aznar portrayed as Saturn or Kronos, as Nixon was? But not Sharon. So why can not Sharon be Chronos or Saturn? Does he not devour his own children? No. He is depicted as devouring a palestine child. A palestine child is _not_ an Israeli nor jewish child. But nor is it a "christian" child. But the thing is, I hope, that here, in "indymedia" land, be it ireland, or uk or barcelona or wherever, we would wish those children regardless of faith, colour, ethnicity, class be considered the children of our future. And Goya, Blake, and all who have used Kronos, know that Saturn represents dark forces that are "outside time".

Please if there are israeli or jewish or palestinian writers or commentators: write and comment, but know we are not giving you space to fight a war only to find peace.

by Shaw Sun Nov 30, 2003 01:01

The article in the above post was, I think, very interesting!

by mr. politically correct Sat Nov 29, 2003 22:13

A Greater- Zionist Arab-hating fanatic like Avi is going to lecture us on "deprogramming from chauvinistic attitudes" ..... ?

Sounds like somebody needs to take a few lungfuls of fresh air ......

More like brainwashing us with his own ideologically-motivated brand of "political correctness" .....

by don't make me laugh Sat Nov 29, 2003 20:45

O dear, the Israelis are now an "ethnic minority" ........ whom everbody must be careful not to offend ....
We have to self-censor all political satire to make sure we don't tread on any sensitive little toes ....

Meanwhile of course Avi and his fellow zealots may continue freely to rant abusively against Arabs with complete impunity ....

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3940.htm

by avi H. Sat Nov 29, 2003 20:05

Offensive imagery is offensive regardless of where it comes from. For example, a photo-montage of a religious Jew carrying a Nazi flag would be offensive to Jews even if its creator happened to be a Jew. Similarly, these cartoons are intrinsically offensive regardless.

There is nothing further to say about this, except that those who refuse to acknowledge the possibility that certain things may insult ethnic minorities are not the broad-minded people they may claim to be and may well need deprogramming from chauvinistic attitudes.

by Phuq Hedd - Pedants R Us Sat Nov 29, 2003 20:03

Thanks to my fellow pedant for the Saturn eating his children clarification. To add to this I believe that William Blake's version of the Kronos Devouring his Children (which came in the midst of a volume obsessed with Jerusalem as a subject) may be the original inspiration for the cartoon.

by Double Standard Sat Nov 29, 2003 18:01

"However, it's entirely inappropraite to refer to any Jew in this way.
What about those Israeli cartoons posted above? Jews can do it, but non-Jews can't?

Seems like there is a "double standard" going on here, doesn't it?

Similar to how Pro-Zionist posters can keep referring to Muslims as Nazis: "Islam-nazis"
and the like, on these sites; but God help anyone from daring to use the expression:
"Zionnazi" (which implies that Israeli policies are Nazi-like).
I don't buy it. "Anti-Semitism" is being wrongfully used to shield a country (Israel) from very, very valid criticism.
And further, I think it's very dangerous for Jews around the world to have the policies of Israel equated with their religious beliefs, which is the natural result of "anti-Semitism" being equated with criticism of Israel and Israeli policy.

by avi H. Sat Nov 29, 2003 17:49

I note that the people who insist this cartoon is not offensive to Jews are not Jews.

by Another pedant Sat Nov 29, 2003 11:16

The painting is variously referred to as "Saturn / Kronos devouring his sons / children" ....

The reason being that "Saturn" and "Kronos / Chronos" are respectively the Latin and Greek designations of the same pagan deity .....

But of course you all knew that anyway ....

http://www.jordan.palo-alto.ca.us/staff/lgoldman/public/mmart3/class/16/merry.html

http://cat.middlebury.edu/~nereview/morgan.html

by Another pedant Sat Nov 29, 2003 11:09

"There's no smoke without fire ...."

http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/poetry/story/0,6000,439279,00.html

by Pedant Sat Nov 29, 2003 05:11

It's CRONOS devouring his children, a very startling image.

However, it's entirely inappropraite to refer to any Jew in this way. Throughout the last 2000 years, pogroms were regularly started by rumours that Jews were sacrificing Christian babies and eating them in their ceremonies at the synagogues.

Some people never change.

by kl Sat Nov 29, 2003 02:44

Well, I don't agree with you.......otherwise how do you explain the very similiar Israeli cartoons?
This was clearly a take-off of a very, very famous Goya work, who was, I believe referring to the Napoleonic wars....way before Nazis.......and, in fact, is of
Saturn eating his own children......so one could assume that the cartoonist has Sharon
devouring Israelis; how many Israelis have died so far in this Intifada that Sharon
provoked on purpose....900? and going up).
For me, both the cartoon and the fact that it won is more about the story: The Emperor’s
New Clothes...... we see the naked Sharon for what he really is: a blood thirsty monster.

by avi H. Fri Nov 28, 2003 23:25

3) Another point is that this exactly type of cartoon was commonly carried by 'Der Stuermer', the Nazi newspaper in Germany in the 1930s and 40s. This makes even more offensive and inappropriate than it might otherwise be.

by avi H. Fri Nov 28, 2003 23:20

1) Correction: Sharon is NOT a convicted war criminal.

2) The cartoon imagery so redolent of the blood libel is particularly offensive and counterproductive, especially as the blood libel is currently being perpetuated in Arab countries (viz. the Egyptian TV dramatization of the Protocols of Zion) as part of a general climate of anti-Jewish racism.

by Ali H. Fri Nov 28, 2003 12:01

Near-idential Israeli cartoon depicts Orthodox Jew sucking blood of non-orthodox Jew

by Ali H. Fri Nov 28, 2003 11:58

Any comment Avi H.?

by red dub Fri Nov 28, 2003 02:42

even political satire is unaccepable to sharon and his chums. the US is finally cutting their id until they mend their racist little ways

by Repost Thu Nov 27, 2003 15:35

AGE OF SHARON

http://www.museedelarmee.org/larmee85.html

by kokomero Thu Nov 27, 2003 14:53

Israel's prime minister says anti-Semitism is rising in Europe, citing attacks on Jews and Jewish interests. His remarks followed an EU poll which showed many believe Israel is the greatest threat to world peace.

Henri Wajnblum, former president of the Union of Progressive Jews in Belgium:

Mr Sharon wants more Jews in Israel, he wants to gain the demographic advantage. He is, in part at least, exploiting fears of anti-Semitism to persuade Europe's Jews to emigrate.

Peter Sichrovsky, Austrian MEP and former general secretary of Joerg Haider's right-wing Freedom Party:

Obviously people must have the right to criticise Israel, but it frequently appears to be the case that a standard is applied to Israel that isn't to the rest of the world.

Yaron Ezrahi, professor of political science at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem:

The right-wing in Israel describes every criticism of the country as a form of anti-Semitism. It is very convenient for the present government - which is the most right-wing in Israel's history and headed by a prime minister who has not taken the smallest initiative in the direction of a diplomatic effort in the peace process - to blame everything on anti-Semitism.

This way, they try to write off any criticism of their own policies.

Barry Kosmin, executive director of the London-based Institute for Jewish Policy Research and co-editor of A New Antisemitism - debating Judeophobia in 21st century Britain

There has been a rise in other forms of anti-Semitism, so in the British context in particular, we came up with the term Judeophobia. We see it as extreme criticism of Israel and American Jews that moves over into bigotry against Jews as a whole.

Frank Furedi, sociology professor at the UK's Kent University and a commentator on contemporary approaches to the Holocaust

It is unfortunate that when we think about the problem of anti-Semitism, we tend to invoke the spectre of the Holocaust and images of Adolf Hitler. That kind of danger simply does not exist today. If anything we suffer from Holocaust overdose.

William Wolff, chief regional rabbi of the eastern German state of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern

There are many Jews in my area who are from the former eastern bloc. They have come to Germany to escape anti-Semitism, and they have found a home here.

Diana Pinto, historian and author of The Wager: Reconciling Europe and the Jewish world in the 21st century:

Anti-Semitism should not be confused with the unsavoury critiques against Israel which can be found in the ranks of Europe's left-wing or with the often unpalatable Holocaust "fatigue" which many Europeans, in Germany in particular, may be experiencing.

Anneke Mouthaan, one of the founders of the Dutch group Another Jewish Voice:

Until comparatively recently, Europe felt so guilty about what happened to the Jews during World War II that they were completely unable to raise any objections to what Israel was doing in the Middle East.

David Aaronovitch, columnist for the UK's Guardian and Observer newspapers:

It is certainly true that some people close to the Israeli Government and people on the right of the Zionist spectrum will sometimes use the charge of anti-Semitism against people who they think go too far in criticising Israeli politics.

Jean-Yves Camus, French political scientist and contributor to the annual report Anti-Semitism Worldwide

Criticism of the Israeli government's policies is fully legitimate.

Edward Serotta, director of the Central Europe Center for Research and Documentation in Vienna (www.centropa.org), a web-based virtual institution that specialises in Jewish history in the region

As this debate on anti-Semitism becomes more and more shrill there is so much that paints the entire European continent as a cess-pool of hatred for Jews. One prominent Jewish leader recently said the climate was just like 1933 - this is absolutely absurd.

by kokomero Thu Nov 27, 2003 14:06

Seeking to equate a cartoon, however distasteful, with the brutalisation and disenfranchisement of an entire people simply will not wash!

This queue-jumping by Avi under his various pseudonyms (Daithi?) simply serves to deflect attention from real news about facts on the ground in Palestine.

by Eoin Dubsky Thu Nov 27, 2003 12:29

Daithi asks whether "You don't believe the use of an old and vile anti-Jewish myth... with regard to the leader of the only Jewish-majority state in the world... shows prejudice towards Jews?"
Firstly, I had to google for the anti-Jewish myth -- as I only picked up on the likeness to Goya's painting (Saturn devouring one of his children). From what I can gather you're talking about the so-called "blood libel" though, a centuries-old smear on the Jewish people that they slaughtered Christian children in order to use the blood in their rituals. I'd never heard of this before, but I knew the painting.
The cartoon identifies Sharon and the Likud party with the policies/crimes of Sharon and the Likud party against the Palestinian people. It uses very strong imagery, sure, but its a very strong political message too (i.e. Sharon is a warlord).

by Daithí Thu Nov 27, 2003 11:56

You don't believe the use of an old and vile anti-Jewish myth (one that predates Israel, incidentally) with regard to the leader of the only Jewish-majority state in the world (a person for whom I have little time, respect or sympathy) shows prejudice towards Jews?

I think the blinkers are yours, my friend. Closing your eyes to harmful deeds and words against Jews (cf the comments on the EU report) - or ignoring the question because of the etymology of the word Semite - is a dangerous sort of wilful ignorance and is unbecoming of anyone who claims to genuinely support progressive or left-wing politics.

I think the cartoon shows poor judgement. I wouldn't suppress it; but neither would I allow my unease with Israel's present actions to justify ignoring the hateful message contained therein.

by kokomero Thu Nov 27, 2003 11:44

As they say a leopard never changes spots, and Sharon the war-criminal continues to flout international law again today with his authorisation of 3 new Jewish settlements in the occupied West Bank.

This man and his government present the most real danger to the Middle East and by extension world peace as recently shown by an EU-wide poll.

Even the US is aganist him on this one.

This is not anti-semitism simply a fact visible to all but the most blinkered!

by David Thu Nov 27, 2003 11:26

He is a legitimate target for such cartoons just like hitler stalin mussolini et al.

by avi H. Thu Nov 27, 2003 09:46

This sort of cant is the last thing the Middle East needs.