Anti-Bin Tax march to Mountjoy Prison

by pat c Tue Nov 18, 2003 15:33

But there were a few present.

by still fighting - . Tue Nov 18, 2003 16:44

Is this a report or an attack on every group minus the WSM. Looks like the anarchists are joining the rest of the sectarians and I thought you were different :)

by Andrew Tue Nov 18, 2003 16:46

That's odd I see 3 groups mentioned in the report but only one criticised

by PK Tue Nov 18, 2003 18:21

I think you are being far too harsh on the SWP. After all their members were very busy with canvassing for Eamon in Derry, attending the ESF in Paris and preparing for the anti-Bush demos in London.

Remember - Think Local Act Global.

by protester - none Tue Nov 18, 2003 18:24

There was at least one SWP member there. I saw a SWP placard and a pleasant enough guy handed me a leaflet re Marxism 2003.

It does seem that the author of this piece is having a go at political parties and other organisations. He sayis that the parties will not have to pay the bills but the communities will. Where does he think parties like the SP come from? Mars?! All SP members I know have not paid the tax it is SP member who are in jail, they live in communities like everyone else the division between 'community' and 'party' being portrayed by the author is a little false.

It should also be noted that the UCD Students Union was also there with a good few members. Also present were the CPSU and a large group from the South Dublin Anti Bin Tax campaign. In total there was about 150+

by Another protestor Tue Nov 18, 2003 20:18

"It does seem that the author of this piece is having a go at political parties and other organisations"
Yes that's about all he's good for.

by Another protestr Tue Nov 18, 2003 20:20

Beg her pardon
Should be "all she's good for"

by Irish Socialist Network Tue Nov 18, 2003 20:23

The Irish Socialist Network were represented at the march although most members were postering for a meeting on this Thursday night in the WEFTRA Hall, Finglas West. Sinn Fein were also in attendance and the Workers Party.

by Phuq Hedd Tue Nov 18, 2003 21:49

So, the poster writes a report of a march (thanks for that) and isn't allowed to point out that one group (SWP) didn't pull out the stops to support it?

Given that the SWP approach to anti-bin-tax issues has been controversial (against blockades, against a simultaneous all-or-none policy) then this is useful evidence to gauge how much support the SWP is really giving to the anti-bin-tax issue.

Although that runs the risk of being seen as "sectarian" I don't think that's a valid criticism because in order to avoid being "sectarian" you'd have to refrain from mentioning anything about the SWP.

It's important to see the roles played by different parties and whether or not their actions match their rhetoric.

I don't believe that we should refrain from a factual statement that party X was absent in order to avoid being haunted by the spectre of sectarianism.

by Aileen - wsm/personal capacity Wed Nov 19, 2003 11:27 sovietpop at eircom dot net

Apologies to the SWP, the UCD student union and the ISN, Sinn Fein and the WP for not noting their presence at the demo. I was pleased to
see the UCD student union banner there but forgot to
include it in my report, the others I just didn't notice. It seems I need to brush up on my journalism skills.

I do try not to be sectarian, but if I am to be honest, my experience of the SWP in the last year has led me to become a little jaded. Hence I jumped to the conclusion that they had pulled out of the campaign, and moved on to other pastures. I would be delighted if is not the case and if they devote some of their energies to building strong local campaigns.

Protester points out that most parties are made up of individuals and those individuals are going to end up paying bills. This is true. But I wasn't trying to have a go at political parties.The point I was making was not aimed at them, rather it was aimed at those who depend on others (whether those others are political parties or the media or the politicians) to fight their battles for them. None of the groups involved in the campaign can possibly win it on their own. The strength of the local groups is the strength of the campaign.

by hs - sp Wed Nov 19, 2003 16:48

I think the problem with the report is it comes across a little condesending. I'm sure you didn't intend this but the tone seemed that the political parties would all go away and the communities would be left abandoned. As another person pointed out we in the parties and groups are actually from the communities and not some alien descending from above. Also the point that we are somehow saying that the communities are "depending" on us. You say that communities should not depend on political parties but seem to imply we are saying they should. Its a common misrepresentation made on indymedia. We never have or would say such a thing. And this does seem to be an underlying theme in alot of anarchist writing. The socialist party has never said people should not be active and should rely on us. (we're very small :)) And standing in elections does not mean we have rejected activity or idirect action as some imply. It means we do both.

by LR Wed Nov 19, 2003 18:55

A SP member giving lessons in condescension.

Ickle birdie tells me that there was a fair bit of SP condescending flying about in Finglas last night.

by Andrew Thu Nov 20, 2003 15:30

Are the bolckades still going on?

by LR Thu Nov 20, 2003 17:43

I assume you mean Blockades unless Bolckades is some form of blocking Bolsheviks?

I don't believe both are on the agenda at the moment. "We have entered a new phase"

From what I know it would seem that there were to be three public meetings coming up in the Finglas area over the next few weeks and that a newsletter was to be produced and ready on Friday.

People were waiting to deliver the newsletter announcing the meetings and to poster for it. There was no sign of the newsletter but what was spotted in parts of Finglas on Saturday were posters for a SP 'meet and greet' Joe and Clare meeting. A recruitment meeting in other words.

I suppose you have to get your priorities right.

by Genuine Activist Thu Nov 20, 2003 17:55

That the Socialist Party by decided to hold public meetings about its politics in an effort to build its forces in areas like Finglas is somehow abandoning the campaign.

Given that they have about three active members in Finglas how could they be held responsible for delaying the production of posters and newsletters especially given that there are other forces organised in the area?

As far as some of the other political groups in Finglas seem to be concerned the SP should know its place, keep its head down, and not attempt to build in Finglas which they seem to think is "their turf".

As far as I'm concerned people like Helen M and John McC have done good work in Finglas and have every right to try and recruit people to the SP. If the SP was as well organised in the rest of Dublin as they are in Fingal it certainly wouldn't do the Anti Bin Tax campaigns any harm.

by Colm - ISN personal capacity Thu Nov 20, 2003 18:51

As probably the only person in this thread who attended the meeting in Finglas I'd like to make a point or two:

Finglas, like any other area is nobodys 'turf' and every group has a right to organise meetings wherever they wish. If we really believe in the politics we espouse we will have no problem in debating them openly and trying to convince people of the merits of those ideas.

The Anti-Bin Tax Campaign in Finglas has been exemplary up til now, with vigourous debate and democratic decision making followed by real and continous activity. It would be a pity if this were to end, especially due to squabbles on indymedia.

There are two implications in the last contribution which I want to address. Firstly it is true that mebers of the SP have played a key role in the Finglas campaign. So to have ISN members, two of us having served a fortnights prison sentence recently along with seven others, none of whom were members of political groups. It is also true to say that grassroots members/supporters of SF have also played an active part in the campaign. The point being that we have a united working class campaign which is much stronger and broader than the sum of the political groups involved.

Finally, if the Genuine Activist is implying when he/she says 'other political groups' that the ISN regard Finglas as our 'turf' he is very mistaken. The ISN has publically defended the right of the SP to hold any meeting they want and has worked closely with the SP in Finglas Campaign, despite some clear political differences, as I am certain the comrades in the SP would attest to. We have confidence that our particular perspective of participtory, non hierarchical socialism can stand up in public debate and discussion, and that we do not need the ideological protection of carve ups, turf wars, no go areas etc.

I suspect that Genuine Activist, LR etc are simply trying to sow division in a campaign that has up til now been very successful.

by fairplay Thu Nov 20, 2003 18:56

You're dead right Colm. Every organisation has a right to organise and try to win people over to their ideas.

by Genuine Activist Fri Nov 21, 2003 11:24

There is any difference in what Colm and I are saying.

by Grouplet Watch Sat Nov 22, 2003 17:29

Colm your comments are tainted by the fact that LR is a member of your group!

by Colm Breathnach - ISN (personal capacity) Mon Nov 24, 2003 13:13 breathc at hotmail dot com

It is a great pity that people make anonymous accusations on indymedia, designed to sow sectarianism and undermine activists of all and no affiliation. While it is probably unwise to respond to such cowardly attacks, since I have been named in such an attack by 'Grouplet Watch', I feel I have no option but to respond.

Neither I nor Paul nor any member of the ISN are LR, IO or any other anonymous poster on the recent threads relating to the Bin Tax. ISN members have played a small but extremely active role in this campaign and have cooperated closely and effectively with a number of other left organisations during the campaign. The aim of most of those posting seems to be to sow discord amongst the groups involved rather than advance the campaign.

On a political level, I am of the view that this sudden attack on the ISN is an attempt to cause difficulties for the Finglas Anti Bin Tax campaign. The Finglas campaign has been remarkably successful, partly because of the degree of cooperation between ISN, Socialist Party and grassroots members of SF in the area. It now seems that someone is trying to disrupt this by rumour mongering.

There has also been a bit of spinning going on in the last week or so against the ISN, designed to create division between us and other groups and individuals on the left. I suspect that this is coming from someone with an individual grudge and should be treated with the contempt it deserves.

As to the person calling himself or herself 'Grouplet Watch' why don't you post your false allegations under your real name? Perhaps then we would be in a position to judge your credibility as opposed to activists such as myself and other members of the ISN, SP, WCA etc. who have a proven record of struggle in the Anti-Bin Tax campaign, including in my own case and that of John O Neill also of the ISN, a two week jail sentence. Failing that, you can contact me at the above email address, this time without the cloak of cowardly anonymity.

by sean sp - sp Mon Nov 24, 2003 15:46

I'm not from the area but I've only heard good things about the ISN from socialist party members.
As far as most sp people i've talked too they support ISN and appreciate the work done.

by Colm - ISN (personal capacity) Mon Nov 24, 2003 16:25

Thanks Sean. Fortunately, I think our thinking reflects the views of the vast majority of Anti Bin Tax activists.