Alliance for Choice press conference today

by AfC Fri Sep 05, 2003 14:24

Details of the Alliance for Choice Press conference today in the Shelbourne Hotel to mark 20 years since the 8th Amendment
20 years on - time to scrap the 8th Amendment

Speakers included

Catherine Forde - IFPA
Karen Kiernan - Cherish
Aisling Reidy - ICCL
Ailbhe Smyth - WERRC
Alison Begas - Dublin Well Woman
Sandra McAvoy - Cork Women's Right to Choose Group
Ivana Bacik - Alliance for Choice

20 years since the 8th Amendment
The Alliance for Choice will publicly launch this collection of short articles by people who were active in the 1983 Referendum campaign, or who have been active in pro-choice politics since then.

Speaking at the press conference, Catherine Forde said:

"Safe legal abortion has been available in Denmark for 30 years and in June this year they have had their lowest abortion rate since then. Their abortion rate is on the decrease. In contrast Ireland, which introduced a total ban on abortion 20 years ago has had a steadily increasing rate of abortion. The difference: safe, legal abortion and a comprehensive sex education programme which starts in primary schools.


Commenting on the 1983 Referendum, Senator Mary Henry said:

'It is still a mystery to me why a group of people decided it was necessary to insert a clause into the Constitution to make abortion, which was already unlawful here, even more unlawful.The worst aspect was the wording, which denigrated the life of a woman to equality with a fertilised egg. No hint was given that her prior right to life or social responsibilities should be considered. Perhaps it fitted well in a Constitution which really only considers a woman as a mother and a worker in the home.


Drawing on her experience over the past 20 years, Cathleen O'Neill said:

"If I had a pound for every fundraiser I worked on to help working class women go to England for an abortion, I'd be a rich woman. Taking children into our homes for the duration of the visit - pretending that Mammy was gone to a funeral; holding pub quizzes, and running limited draws, as well as running sales of work and raffles under weird and wonderful names to preserve anonymity. Almost every other week. It's bad enough for those who can afford to travel, but for poorer women it's hell. It s time those who claim to represent us to get a grip on reality and take steps to end this nightmare .

Calling for change in the law, Ivana Bacik said:

"Over the 20 years since 1983, we know that 100,000 Irish women have had to travel to England for abortions. Women with crisis pregnancies are continuing to travel every day of the week. But while we have gone through five different referendums, nothing has changed for them. It is time for us to recognise the real needs of women and change the law."

Quotes end.

by Badman Fri Sep 05, 2003 14:34

Now why didn't I think of that? Unfortunately these abortions are going to be very late term - in the region of 1200 weeks.

by Dolores Fri Sep 05, 2003 14:48

... just a tad ironic you should be castigating some societies for deeming some people to be 'non persons'.

Hollow chuckles...

by Mags Fri Sep 05, 2003 14:52

So no change of tactics from the troglodytes then!

And I thought they would still be in mourning for their leader.

Surely it is the anti-choicers who should be celebrating their great victory in the '83 referendum. Oh yeah, it all went a bit pear shaped though, didn't it - somewhere around 1992.

What were they demanding anyway - referendum number 6, I suppose?

by Anonymous Fri Sep 05, 2003 14:53

Capitalism believes that all life is dispensable, so long as it leads to greater gain for the individual, and it does not care how "late term"s this is. Bravo capitalism.

by fuinseog Fri Sep 05, 2003 15:19

What's that? Look on Google.
http://www.dublin.ie/cherish/?pageID=13&siteID=279

Oh, the National Association of Single Parent Families

That's a bit confusing. Single Parent Families, surely that refers to people who haven't aborted/been aborted?

Had a look at website. No mention of abortion. Sounds like the pro-abortion people are taking over all related organisations.

ICCL ditto. No reference to abortion on their website either!

IFPA seem to think abortion is a form of family planning. Is this the position of the alliance, abortion is like the pill or using condoms?

by chekov Fri Sep 05, 2003 15:24

There is no suggestion anywhere that any of these organisations have any line on abortion. Individuals within the organisation do and have every right to state those opinions.

by fuinseog Fri Sep 05, 2003 15:24

"In the eyes of the law... the slave is not a person." (Virginia Supreme Court decision, 1858)

"An Indian is not a person within the meaning of the Constitution." (George Canfield, Am. Law Rev., 1881)

"The statutory word 'person' did not in these circumstances include women." (British voting rights case, 1909)

"Unpersons who had never existed." (Designation for people purged by the Soviet government)

"The Reichsgericht itself refused to recognize Jews... as 'persons' in the legal sense." (1936 German Supreme Court decision)

"The word 'person,' as used in the 14th Amendment, does not include the unborn." (U.S. Supreme Court decision, 1973)

by iosaf Fri Sep 05, 2003 15:25 6794200

we are all descended from prostitutes.
& we are all descended from murderers.
Autonomy begins with Self!
If anyone ever shouts "murderer" at you, it is sure sign of limited and very non "catholic" thinking. Thomas Aquinas (father of the church) was the first theologian of the Christian tradition to formulate "ensoulment" as a concept. That concept stands still and has altered little in the fourteen centuries that have passed since Aquinine epistomology began. It's most notable alteration was in the Papal Bull of John XXIII called (all papal bulls are termed in latin) "Vitae Humanae" (=human life).
Vitae Humanae did not define willful abortion as murder, it rather said (I'll quote the english translation) "It shall never be lawful to intefere with the creative principle".
So, good catholics of youth defense, descended as they are of prostitutes and murderers, thieves and rapists ought find another term.
In today's theological debates perhaps too rarified for the descendents (spawn as we are) of harlot, killer and defiler revolves around John XXIII inclusion of genetic modification in that afore quoted line.

I bored of arguing with youth defence long long ago, any one who denies their lineage denies Christ by their hypocrisy. (yawn yawn here endeth the lesson).

by Anonymous Fri Sep 05, 2003 16:43

.

by ipsiphi Fri Sep 05, 2003 17:05

The other mass belief system that combines social law, epistomology, superstition and mysticism is of course Islam.
At around the same time as Thomas Aquinas formulated his "ensoulment" theory, that the "soul" enters the body of the child in the womb and stays there till either temporary displacement in extreme cases of diabolica possession or more usually the considered end of our days "death". Muhomad PBUH left his little town and with his followers went on what is known as the "Hegira", thereafter he set about reciting the final books of the Quran. and of course issuing his hadith (sayings). Now the prophet of Islam (PBUH) was also regulating for a new community of which he was leader. Most of the final books of the Quran and the hadith concern social regulation.
You can eat this.
You can't eat that.
You can live in this tent.
You can't live in that tent if you're menstruating.
You get circumcised.
You wear a beard if you're a boy, a veil if you're a girly. And you never ever go confusing people as to whether you're a girly or a boy.

Now Islam squares Aquinas as the masons would say because: it describes description of humans as "participants in divine providence."

However though later "rightwing" intepretations of the Qu'ran were and are anti-women such as contemporary Catholic intepretation of the Fathers of the Church (yawn yawn) the "golden rule" was quitely forgotten:
Islam sees the Qu'ran as the supreme judge of moral matters. Though because the Qu'ran is held to be revealed to all people at all times, unlike Aquinas who writing before anatomy, before dissection and before study of the zygote could only theorise the process of fertilisation, the process of logical anaylsis and consideration of modern ethical matters is called "ijithad".

Islamic jurists have long debated abortion using the techniques of "ijithad".

Oh, yawn yawn, until the 13th century it must be noted that Europeans under influence of their Islamic neighbours, had adopted most of the 20 methods of contraception described in the Qu'ran.

[you didn't think the Qu'ran was a contraception guide did you?]

And it was not until the advent of "the protestant reformation" yawn yawn that Christians and Catholics began to stop using those methods.
Thus we see the change in "population" levels or "fertility" index before and after the Reformation.

finally "youth defence" spawn of harlot, killer and accountant (unfortuanetly we are all too descended from the tax collecter) read the _only_ line of Monotheistic scripture that deals with "baby killing".

The Qu'ran Surah 6: At-Talaqa:2-3
or google for
Koran Sutra 6 "at-talaqa" 2nd verse line the third.

Do not kill your children for fear of poverty for it is We who shall provide sustenance for you as well as for them."

Here endeth the lesson.
pass the plate.

by sofia (very sensitive) Fri Sep 05, 2003 17:58

so perhaps we should push our timeline back a bit.

so refresh the faithful and unfaithful spawn of harlots and killers all:

1960s John 23 humanae vitae.
Medieval Period Aquinas- Muhumad PBUH
hmmm.
oh the jewish perspective!!!

Now the Jewish tradition is the cornerstone of monotheistic religion and as such claims tradition for yawn yawn 5000 and more years, and in that time lots oh I say lots has been proferred on the touchy topics of women, their fertility, when does a baby start, and what are you allowed to do to control birth.

Let's have a brief recap:

Now when we say 5000+ years of course we are being mega-traditional, for in truth, the oldest books of the Bible the Pentateuch were written down in the period 1400-500 BC. or to stick with the variety of today's O'asif religious counter trolling service (free) 2000-1100 years before the Hegira when Islam went social control on us.

Now the OT (as the jewish bit of the bible is called describes a terrible and wrathful God, who through his patriarchs (drunken old men in the main) condoned such things as incestual rape (Lot), selective infanticide (Noah) and dismissed number one of the later Qu'ran's contraceptive methods " azl, or coitus interruptus " as being "not the done thing". You may remember that coitus interruptus or the "withdrawl method" was traditionally attributed to Onan.
Much confusion remains there, onanism the "spilling of the seed" (guess my childhood) outside the blessed channel of the woman was a NONO. an emphatic NO NO an Ulster NO NO.
But any words on abortion?

well some.
the Zohar a collection of jewish mystical writings and the cornerstone of QaBaLa the fusion of mystical thought in the 13th century (european era) written in Barcelona (well it would be wouldn't it) has this to say:
bk 1 verse 9. [it's a hebrew Anagram]: B'hibar'am, B'Avraham (When they were created, with Avraham)

and that is that.


pass the plate.
give CAZ some money.

I shall now go to Egyptian religious practise
then Eastern religions.
yawn yawn.

by sensitivity to a fault me Fri Sep 05, 2003 20:20

bear grudges and chips on the shoulder me.

Now let us look further back yeah afore the Flood,
to the really mysterious ways of thinking that the peoples of Egypt gave to the world.
Our understanding of egyptian religious belief is based mostly in the work done by funny types of both French and British nationality in the 19th century. One of these W. Budge who probably smellt, was the first to offer for publication a translation of the "papyri of Ani" or "The Egyptian Book of the Dead".
He went to extensive lengths to alter the spellings of some of the names, a nod to the later qabalists and a sign of his smelly dodgy fascination with the word AMEN.
He suffixed to almost every name in the canon which lists the deities, semideities and other assorted spooky characters that would help the soul leave the body and go join the really good times in heaven.
Now these ideas had of course influenced both the jewish peoples before the exodus whose regulation we might reflect was the result of it's patriarch Moses regulating a migrant community in exile under pretty shitty conditions.

All say:
{You can eat this.
You can't eat that.
You can live in this tent.
You can't live in that tent if you're menstruating.
You get circumcised.
You wear a beard if you're a boy, a veil if you're a girly. And you never ever go confusing people as to whether you're a girly or a boy}.

To these Moses also added 10 really big and simple rules for really big and simple people.
Anyway back to Egypt.

I know you're enthralled.

So W. Budge the smelly published the book of the dead, and so great was the response that the discerning public "the attentive readers" of their day said "Oh, tis as good as a ne plus ultra these tales of Osiris and Isis and little baby Horus". Render unto us oh W. Budge an easy to use grammar, vocabulary and learn it yourself Egyptian, for we might put the sort of decoration on our houses that our neighbours doth not have that they might be rightoulsy covetous and well fucked off in envy.
And so it passed.
Within a short generation the smelly bourgoise of Britain were trekking around Egypt reading and writing anceint heiroglyphics. You may see the 19thcentury heiroglyphic graffiti to this day. Illuminating stuff.
But apart from some vague theories of what "left" the body at death no clear picture of what "entered" the body at birth or before could be gleaned.
Back to Moses, for a moment you feel safe with him, after Moses died let us reflect that his rule was honoured by the Patriarchial culture and those 10 big rules for big people were expanded into 613 seperate "´no no NO NO even worse than an Ulster no. total illegalisation. no newspapers. no youth culture. no graffiti. no t-shirts. no conversations- no freedom of speech. no personal responsibility for one's social participation. and you just tried some of that S&G and gone were ye.

all say:
Autonomy begins with self.

let us now look before aye even further afore the Flood of great reknown and ask ¿where did the Egyptians get all their ideas? well we can't coz I'm not going to tell you.
Suffice to tease that there are certain clear parallels in both spelling (after smelly Budge is removed) and surface grammar between the languages and scripts of yawn yawn pyramid land!!! and Babalon.

Tis the harlot again.
Now we are in deep mystery.


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OPEN LETTER TO SPUC and YOUTH DEFENCE







SPUC, YD myself good self and everyone else is descended from a prostitute, a murderer, a thief, and those who have exercised thier inate human right to be autonomous on the most mysterious of concerns that led Aquinas to reverse the papyri of ani in their disgusting preservation of the life of the rich and rich alone to ponder without scientific evidence the riddle of "ensoulment".

We may each for ourselves say whether or not abortion is right, wrong, moral, ethical, neccesary, abomination.
We who are women may say for themselves what they say.
I never was so good with Mary/Marym/Isis/Hathor.

A society that attempts in our social context as citizens of Europe to impose the religiously founded but equally religiously confused views on women is a final attempt to install theocratic values which are to the detriment of the equal and full development of both Church and Islam globally.

When SPUC/YD may offer homes to the poor.
When SPUC/YD may offer vaccines to the poor.
When SPUC/YD may accept the vast immorality rather than morality of their state built borders they will only have started to address their hypocrisy. No-one has ever sustained an attack on SPUC/YD activists by saying they are murderers.
The hypocrisy might well have provoked that which you decry.
Amen.

yours most sincerely in "faith".
iosaf mac diarmada.
An open letter.

by Ali la Pointe - fite dem back Sat Sep 06, 2003 18:39

follow your leader

exactly what it says on the tin

by confusedhuman - prolife animal rights alliance Mon Sep 08, 2003 16:58 achorusline19 at hotmail dot com

how equally selective are the left and right,the right opposing abortion and yet supporting wars,capital punishment and sustaining poverty and misery in minoritys lives and not to mention the mass slaughter of animals for human consumption,the left supposedly the defenders of the weak and least recognised members of society yet they sanction the slaughter of the most voiceless defenceless of all life forms,the unborn!Just like capital punishment and military aggression,abortion reflects societys tendency to voilently dispose of those viewed as a problem or threat to their lifestyles,or those whose needs seem to be in direct conflict with their own.Lets work to improve the standard of living and eliminate poverty and create a world where their is not the rights of women,the disabled,unborn,or gay etc.,but only the rights of men,rather than act as if pregnancy in all cases were forced or as if the child were the property of the mothers!also as humans are a part of the animal world,therefore animal rights become human rights!end all murder and voilence now,fight the power!