Ireland's Green party wins 6 seats.

by Eoin Maher Mon May 20, 2002 20:47 eoin_maher at hotmail dot com

Well thought out article, if a little biased. The embracing of the hiararcial system, which the Green party up until recently abhored, helped them gain publicity and credibility. Trevor sergeant topping the poll in a hot contested constituency such as north Dublin shows how the greens have identified and infiltrated middle class urban society, demonstrated by their emphasis on public transport and quality of life.

Eoin Maher

by C. Mon May 20, 2002 21:49

Interesting article and I would agree with the interpretation of the mandate given to the Greens.

My question is - how have other green parties in Europe most effectively implemented green policies?
Through central government / parliament / local government / activism and setting up projects?

This isn't a trick question - I am just wondering how the green party sees itself best using the new influence and status it has gained. The government experience in germany seems to be a low point for the greens there - but my knowledge is hazy.

by Brian Cahill - Socialist Party Mon May 20, 2002 22:03 nigel_irritable at yahoo dot com

I'm not sure how many of you heard Trevor Sargent, the leader of the Greens talking about the bin tax issue.

Both on local radio and on RTE television he claimed, with crass dishonesty, that Fingal County Council were being forced to privatise bin collection by the actions of Clare Daly and the Socialist Party in organising a campaign of mass non-payment.

Of course the exact opposite is true. The introduction of the bin tax, if succesfully implemented, is itself a step towards privatisation. It is much easier to farm out the service if there is already a source of income associated with it - as experience across the country should show us.

by Raymond McInerney - Global Country of World Peace Mon May 20, 2002 22:54 raymond.mcinerney at ul dot ie 122 Vale Avenue, Carew Park, Limerick. 086 3626144

Responding to what C stated: 'The government experience in germany seems to be a low point for the greens there.'

I agree totally, the greens while in opposition and in the run up in the last German Elections were classed as more idealistic compared to the main political parties. Howerver, when they got the opportunity to share power in government, their ideals had taking a nose-dive. This became obvious with the whole deal with nuclear energy as they agreed that Germany should continue with this source of energy for another 15 or so years before any indication of phasing out is introduced.

The greens were simply functioning according to the level of collective consciousness in Germany.

It should be highlighted that the government is the innocent mirror of the nation. The quality of government and its leaders, is simply a reflection of the collective consciousness of all the people.

If the nation is not strong and integrated, no government policy, no matter how wise or how well conceived, will be able to generate progress and success.

by Oliver O'Driscoll Tue May 21, 2002 00:15

The harsh reality for any person with concerns for the environment is that the Greens in Germany sold out in order to obtain cabinet seats. They supported the NATO war in Kosova. Likewise as part of the Schroder government, they supported the U.S. interventation in Afghanistan resulting in the deaths of thousands of civilians. They also did an about turn on the nuclear power issue. Petra Kelly must be turning in her grave.
The Green Party in Ireland is sadly heading in the same direction, their support of the unjust refuse tax and their silly attempts to blame opponents of the charge such as Clare Daly speak volumes. Their obvious willingness to get into coalition with Bertie Ahern and assist in operating the system is a classic example of the degeneration of a party that at one time I at least respected if not always agreed with.

by ciara Tue May 21, 2002 13:52

I understand that sucessful implementation of an extortionate bin tax would leave many people out of pocket,
and I understand that this statement may make me grossly unpopular,
but the greens policy of taking responsibility for one's own waste is not really something
you can contest. Surely we don't want to allow waste management to go under,
surely its a really important issue. But perhaps there is a better solution than the huge bin tax?
Anyway, while some genius is thinking up the solution, taking responsibility and paying up is the only solution available.
Its not perfect, especially when you have an elderly person living alone paying same tax as a family of seven.
Something should be done. But slating the green policy is not the solution. Their priority at present is to solve the waste crisis
and their solution for the time being is bin charges. Until somebody who is fundamentally opposed to the bin charges comes up with a sloution, then its the only one we have.

by Brian Cahill - Socialist Party Tue May 21, 2002 14:20 nigel_irritable at yahoo dot com

You are right about one thing, Ciara: arguing such total nonsense won't make you popular.

The bin tax has nothing to do with solving the waste crisis. It is in fact just a renamed version of the water tax - do you think that was designed to solve the waste crisis too?

What the bin tax is meant to do is to further shift the burden of taxation from business and the wealthy onto working class people. It is also designed to enable councils to privatise bin collection by providing a simple external source of income for the service (as we have already seen in a number of towns across the country).

I would like to think that the Greens were just naive on the issue. Sadly, Sargent's hyserical and bile filled attacks on Clare Daly showed that their flaw is cynicism rather than naivity.

Perhaps I should make a few things clear. The government which brought in the bin tax has just let one of the only recycling facilities in Ireland close - still think that they are interested in solving the waste crisis?

In fact only a tiny percentage of waste in this country comes from ordinary people. The overwhelming bulk of it comes from manufacturing, retail and large scale agriculture. You might note that there is no stomach amongst the establishment parties (including the Greens) for raising taxes on business to pay for the disposal of waste. And here was me thinking that it was all about taking responsibility for our own waste...

So what's the solution?

Make business interests pay for a decent nationalised recycling service. Put extra taxes on businesses for the production of excess packaging. Encourage re-use schemes.

The list of reasonable solutions goes on and on. Notably missing from it is "shift the burden of taxation onto the working class, ignore the real culprits, let recycling plants shut and privatise bin collection".

by Terry Tue May 21, 2002 14:21

A few points first. I am glad to see the Greens do so well, but unfortunately
going into government is going to mean they will trade their principles for power
just like any radical party has ever done and like the Greens in Germany. People
are generally the same everywhere and it is the nature of the system that results
in many people, no matter how well intentioned, in being co-opted by the system to
support the status quo. Going down the electoral politics results in the energy
of the people been safely channeled down useless cul-de-sacs, just like the way
in the Arab world, governments use religion as the safety value for venting steam,
while carefully making sure the real political and social aspects of life in these
countries are never challenged, let alone hardly discussed.

I am convinced more than ever, that Direct Action is the only way forward and
it generally achieves results. For example look where the government's legal
challenge got us with Sellafield -nowhere. In fact a close examination throughout
the world shows that the powers-that-be, will tolerate minor changes to the system
and or law, but as soon as it is unfavourable to them, these modest reforms are
always rolled back. Just look at the state of so called National Parks and Wildlife
reserves through-out the world. Most of them have been unable to stop logging and
hunting once all the other areas were exploited.

Regarding the Bin Tax. It is not quite a polluter pays issue. There are social
aspects to it also. Think what will happen when the poorer parts of the city
can not afford to pay the Bin Tax. The rubbish will simply end up on the streets,
Third World like. And make no mistake about it, another attempt will be made to
privatize water. If this happens, and we have areas where the water is cut-off
due to non-payment, we are then likely to see dwellings where people will not
be able to flush their loo. In this scenario, you are not only running into major
public health issues which are the original reasons why public bin collections and
provision of running water was setup, but it will also lead straight to major social
problems.

The fact is that once Bin collection is privatised, the profit incentive takes
over and there will be no incentive for recycling. The privatisation agenda is
linked to the Incinerator agenda and there is a campaign by vested interests to
make sure recycling doesn't work, principally by underfunding and delaying it's
development in this country and then when the incinerators are ready to switch to
them.

The Greens while traditionally taking account of social dimensions to the environment
have totally neglected these issues and are and will simply be used by vested interests.
Just because they are Green and well intentioned, does'nt mean that they won't be
used.

by Terry Tue May 21, 2002 14:25

Those related links from the last posting which can a bit messed
up are:

http://www.StopTheBinTax.com and
http://struggle.ws/

by c Tue May 21, 2002 17:55

Until the Greens fully explain their economic principles and their opinion on current economic issues they are a party that cannot be trusted by any modest leftie , (or even centre of right)

by Green - Green Party Tue May 21, 2002 17:56

The Green Party is not incorrect in its support for waste charges.

There already exists a mechanism by which householders can claim the charge against their PAYE taxes, I think for some people.

The Greens rationale for this is:
not more but different taxation. We want to relatively shift the emphasis from income taxes to environmental taxes.

The Socialist Party is opportunistic to say the least in opposing these charges. The only reason Clare Daly opposes them is for electoral gain - and it proved fruitful for her in the 2002 election. She is not standing up for the people by opposing the charges. If there's anyone hysterical its her.

by Green - Green Party Tue May 21, 2002 18:02

The Green Party has come of age in Ireland in this election.

Its 21st birthday is in December 2002.

The original article at the top is somewhat too focused on environmental aspects.

The Greens have done well by having the best environmental policies which affect our health and economy as much as the environment itself.

They have done well also by being a proper political party. We have the best policies on health, crime, education, transport, housing, planning, etc but very little of this gets through in the media. And not least by having targeted constituencies with committed candidates addressing local concerns.

It should be said also, that the Greens are not a party of the left. We are neither left nor right, with some ideas from the left, others from the right.

Thankfully we now have 6 TDs, and will get more media attention. We will radicalise the Dail.

by Oliver O'Driscoll Tue May 21, 2002 18:10

I am afraid the Ciara is more than just a little naive, the priority for the green party is to get into government. Sadly, for Trevor that is, their "co-operation is no longer required. Given the election results, bertie has even more attractive options. Their support of an unjust and regressive tax is a clear example of the direction been taken by their new "leader" who appears to be rather anxious to be able to assist in operating the system. The picture of elderly people waiting in the rain to have a large portion of their pension been taken is simply obscene. Tax the weak and the deprived, not big business. Nice one Trevor.
A principled person such as Clare Daly opposing such an unjust tax is not been hysterical,she is been just that, principled. Trevor has thrown his out the window and it's all been in vain. How sad.

by Green - Green Party Tue May 21, 2002 18:11

The Greens are neither left nor right, but in front. Some of our economic policies would be considered from the left, others from the right. What's wrong with that? Left and right are two extremes that never work on their own. We must realise that enterprise needs incentives to develop locally in Ireland. There has to be a shift from taxation on work and enterprise and onto other items.

Time and time again the left has been almost like the right in terms of economics. Neither realises that quality of life comes first.

Anyway totally being a left party has no appeal in Ireland. The voters want a balance, not either a right wing or left wing government.

by Nader - Green Party Tue May 21, 2002 18:28

The Green Party is about sanity. Quality of life is paramount. Our policies which contain left and right strands, are designed to achieve that.

On Clare Daly, the present tax is not unjust.

While it may need changes, and allowing everyone to claim it off their taxes, this is not an argument for getting rid of waste charges.

Clare Daly is completely against the waste charges because of some socialist ideological hangup against business. While corporations need to answer many questions on environmental and social issues, and the Greens do support raising corporation tax to 15% (still competitive says the ESRI) they are not solely responsible for the mountain of waste as Clare Daly suggests. People will continue to buy products containing waste even when regulations reduce packaging, which we propose in our waste policy.

Clearly both businesses and citizens must do their bit for a healthy environment. Its not an either or.

I really doubt the committment of someone like Clare Daly to a sustainable environment when all she campaigns on is getting rid of the bin charges. There are a whole range of issues like climate change, energy conservation, renewable enrgy, public transport etc which never get significant attention in Clare's literature. Electoral gain is all it is.

The Greens see the bigger picture, and have realistic policies to make quality of life like it is in Finland.

The Socialist party is really a sideshow

by Green - Green Party Tue May 21, 2002 18:37

To describe the Greens as an 'environmental lobby' is like some columnists with an agenda.

The Green Party is a political party and the environment is not the only issue of our concern. I would have thought anybody would know that.

We see the economy, society and the environment with equal importance. You can't live without an economy or society and you can't have an economy and society without the environment.

Hopefully 6 seats will banish these descriptions to history.

by Oliver O'Driscoll Tue May 21, 2002 18:40

I really appreciate your confession that the "green" party is concerned about the interests of big business. Sadly, I have to inform you that the interests of big business is not the environment but profit. The statement that the bin tax is not unjust is simply untrue. Even if I accepted the tax in principle, which I do not, it is still regressive. It ignores the fact that the vast majority of waste is generated by business, not by households. I have not heard of any proposals by Trevor to tax big business, obviously he prefers to target pensioners and other sections of society.

by Green Tue May 21, 2002 18:52

You're not making any sense.

Surely political parties should be sensible??!!

by Oliver O'Driscoll Tue May 21, 2002 19:24

Can't you read, I would have thought that my remarks were clear and easily understandable. Reply to the points I made if you wish. It would appear that you do not wish to do so. Perhaps like Trevor, you are more concerned about the interests of big business. Perhaps you are also an admirer of Joscha Fisher of Kosova and Afghanistan fame and a reconstructed supporter of nuclear power. As I have commented previously, Petra Kelly must be turning in her grave.

by Phuq Hedd Tue May 21, 2002 19:31

The environment means a lot to me, I make relatively large efforts in personal lifestyle to avoid screwing it up: cycling, buying bulk in my own containers, mulching/composting.

However, the Green Party is playing a noxious part in pitting the poor of our society against the environment by supporting BinTaxes and other "pay for what you use" schemes.

I'll go along with a modified version of those schemes: one which provides a reasonably large allowance of (already paid for by our taxes) bins based upon family size. This has to take into account the volume of packaging which is generated for families which buy their groceries in the cheapest format available: the overly packaged bulk from supermarkets. Then, above and beyond this there is an income-linked punitive charge which is especially high for middle-class, organic-food eating feckers.

Essentially it will mean that for most people there won't be too much of a change, but Trevor Sargent's yuppie voter clique will have to cut down on what they buy in Superquinn.

I also expect to see Trevor and his fellow TDs introduce a punitive road-tax which is channeled into providing good public transport in Dublin and is generated mostly from status-symbol cars.

I also expect Trevor to advocate the introduction of extra VAT which will go to subsidise organic food for poor people.

Cheers,
Phuq Hedd

by D O hEochai - Socialist Party Tue May 21, 2002 20:13

Two questions appear to be coming to the fore in this discussion. I would like to address both.

Waste Management and the bin tax!

80 billion tons of waste goes into landfill each year. Of that figure 78.8 billion tons comes from agricultural, industrial and building waste and 1.2 billion tons comes from domestic sources. As can be seen ordinary people are producers of less than 2% of all the waste in the country and most of that is not by choice. Within the system of the free market (capitalism) all questions are economic. The introduction of the bin tax is not about waste management but about the privitisation of public services. While the bin tax is new to Dublin it has existed for a number of years in other parts of the country. When a council introduces a bin tax it is inevitable that a private contractor will come in and undercut the council charge. This then allows the council to drop bin collection from its services and private contractors step into take the place of the council. 3 years ago I paid £90 for my bin tax, next year it will be 400euro. When I asked the contractor to give me a smaller bin because I recycle a lot of my waste, he refused, saying that it wouldn’t be worth his while, financially, to collect a small bin, so much for the incentive to recycle. In Limerick where people had and were using a green bin as well as an ordinary bin, the private contractor charged for the ordinary bin and then levied an extra charge for collecting the green bin. Is it surprising that everyone handed back the green bin and stopped separating waste? People opposed to incinerators often argue, correctly, that it is in the interest of those operating incinerators not to have a recycling programme in operation because they need a constant supply of waste to make the operation financially viable, the same applies to a privatised bin collection service. The inevitability of the bin tax is a privatised bin collection service, ever increasing bin charges (Over 500euro in Sligo this year), and an ongoing waste crisis. Someone also mentioned that they would support the return of water charges. The same applies, only 10% of all the water used in this country is for domestic purposes, the other 90% is used by industry and agriculture. 50% of all the water is wasted through leaking pipes or because of waste by industry or agriculture. The inevitable consequence of water charges is a privatised service and a disaster for ordinary people as happened in Britain.

The Socialist Party opposes all types of local taxation. PAYE workers already provide over 80% of the tax take in this country, we pay enough. Ordinary people in Fingal support our campaign. Over 90% of the people in that area are refusing to pay the bin tax The Socialist Party also has a very comprehensive policy on waste management and distributed over 5,000 copies of it to households in North County Dublin during the election campaign. However, unlike the Green Party, we do not rely of the goodwill of big business to do the right thing.

One final comment before I go on to the second question, the Socialist Party is totally committed to the creation of a sustainable lifestyle, improved quality of life, protection for the environment etc. It is impossible to be a socialist and not be a “green”. However, we recognise the impossibility of ensuring this under the anarchy of the market.

Where to now for the Green Party?

The Green Party now has 6 TD’s and are on the rise. Where does Trevor Sargent want to take them? The Green Party wants to be in Government so they can implement their policies. “Nader” stated that the Green Party is realistic and can provide a quality of life for the people of Ireland like the people of Finland enjoy. I think the people of Finland would have different views about how fortunate they are at the moment. But it brings up a more fundamental point. “The Green Party want to increase corporation tax to 15% (still competitive according to the ESRI)”. The PAYE standard rate was reduced from 25% to 20% over the past 5 years, Corporation Tax was cut during the same period from 40% to 12.5%, Capital Gains tax was cut from 40% to 20%. At the same time ordinary workers were forced to accept low wage increases, while profits went through the roof. The Green Party are involved in Governments in 5 European countries at the moment and in each occasion have succumbed to the necessities of competitiveness and the market. As recently 3 weeks ago the Green Party Environment Minister in Belgium granted a licence for the building of a large incinerator in Flanders to the same company that wants to build an incinerator in Ringaskiddy. If and when the Green Party in Ireland goes into Government their principles will be thrown out the window as they endeavour to be realistic, competitive and do the right thing. The rallying cry (just like the Labour Party) will be “We just didn’t have the money”, (The Green Party already used this excuse on Fingal County Council in relation to the bin tax).

by C. Tue May 21, 2002 22:47

It's good to see proponents of a 'green' analysis which includes market solutions on the newswire.
But i would have to disagree with the idea that our current bin tax is in any way a 'green' tax. Market based solutions for social problems are often based on the concept of externalities - pricing things which currently don't have a price. This reduces demand and therefore less is consumed (e.g. of road space or waste disposal services). Ken Livingstones charge on cars entering London seems a good example of this in effect. The Irish Bin tax is not a good example - it is not use based, it is rather a single global tax, and it is not well targetted in terms of it's impact on use of waste services. The impetus seems to lie in the GATTS ideology - privatise everything. (whether this is good or not is a different argument - suffice to say I don't think it is). So seperate to morals (just/unjust) I think it's a crap tax - doesn't achieve what it sets out to do, and is dishonest in the extreme.

But what is a good green policy on waste? I don't think you are going to implement it through the Dail - it's going to happen in communities, through consumer choice and possibly at the local government level (the people who currently manage and deliver the collection service). This is why I am interested in Green saying the greens are no longer a lobby - it's a party. You see, i think i would prefer a green movement than a party. A party is singular and you sign up for their policies on everything (maybe not in Ireland since PR rocks but..). It also has the parliamentary party as it's focus. A movement is much more open to activity on different levels and the parliamentery party is only one of it's bodies - look at the labour movement.

I agree that by virtue of it's mandate the 'environmental' lobby has now graduated - I just think it's a pity that from what I've heard here and in other media it will now become a party.

by Daithi Tue May 21, 2002 22:58

Good points made there C - but I fear if a charge, similar to that proposed by Livingstone in London, was introduced here, the likes of the MIJAG (Motor Insurance "Justice" Action Group) would be up in arms about the discrimination against the humble car driver - using, as they have done with the insurance issue (a valid issue does exist), the slogans and arguments of discrimination and injustice.

It would then be important for those on the left to refuse to allow car-drivers (or whoever is abusing the environment) to co-opt left wing rhetoric to serve the interests of destructive populism.

The Green/environmental "movement", for that's where it's strongest, should form a component of any left wing future - and environmental concerns should be a full and integrated part of any radical proposals for economic reform (or revolution...). In the same way that feminism, anti-racism, etc. are part of any honest left-wing ideaology, Green ideas should influence our future.

I oppose the bin tax; it's not a genuine environmental measure at all. However, I'm not convinced that it's the most important issue. It certainly strikes a popular chord, but there are bigger battles, less striking and less appealing to the electorate, that need to be fought. Giving credence to a side issue to the exclusion of others (again, like MIJAG) won't solve anything.

by Brian Cahill - Socialist Party Wed May 22, 2002 00:10 nigel_irritable at yahoo dot com

In Dublin at the moment there is a mass campaign against an unjust and regressive task, with tens of thousands of non-payers involved. What does our resident Labour Party supporter describe it as? A side-issue.

By the way Daithi, you may be claim to be against the tax in principle, but where do you stand on non-payment?

by Daithi Wed May 22, 2002 00:19

I'm sure I'm not the only Labour supporter reading this site. I also don't wish to be defined by my political party; funnily enough, human beings are more complex than drones :-) And as I've said once or twice before, I don't post comments here to represent or promote Labour (unless I explicitly say so)

On your first point, I would worry that whoever is making ground on the back of the bin tax issue (O Snodaigh in Dub South Central, for example), is not letting us know what their broad range of ideas and policies are; their campaigns can sometimes focus on the bin tax issue which leaves other issues devoid of the scrutiny that they also require.

On the second point, I fully support non-payment and hope that it is a successful tactic. But if it is successful, there will remain an environmental issue - victory in the "scrap the bin tax" campaign will hopefully be a stepping stone to genuine environmental reform.

by Brian Cahill - Socialist Party Wed May 22, 2002 02:59

I agree with pretty much everything you said, Daithi. You are right to bring up the use O'Snodaigh has made of the issue.

The subject of Sinn Fein and the Bin Tax is almost as interesting as the Greens and Bin Tax. They voted to bring it in in Sligo. Then they voted to raise it there. In Dublin Corporation they took part in a cynical deal with FF/FG/Lab and half their councillors failed to show for the vote. They have played no serious role in the campaign against the tax, yet come election time it became issue number one for them.

by Andrew Wed May 22, 2002 10:39

The (laughable) idea that the bin tax is somehow related to waste control is discussed at the related link below. It says a lot for the electoral cynicism of the Green party today that this is how they seek to defend it! There is nothing in the bin tax that serves to reduce waste, indeed by taxing PAYE workers rather then charging business (and particularly construction companies) for waste disposal the bin tax helps ensure waste is not reduced. One stat from Mondays Guardian that is slightly relevant is that in Britain the introduction of wheele bins resulted in a 30% increase in waste in some buroughs.

I think the Green party people posting here are telling us a lot more about what that party now (doesn't) stand for then anything else. While they are defening an unjust tax they are at the same time 'standing up' for business. No dougbt Fianna Fail will choose the PD's this time around but the Greens are surely showing to those who matter that they are now suitable for running the country. Business has nothing to fear. Another example of the corroding effects of electoralism on what was once a somewhat radical organisation.

by Terry Wed May 22, 2002 12:26

Firstly just a quick correction to the tonnage for waste figures
given earlier. Those figures should be 8 million tonnes not 80 billion
for the country as a whole a 1.2 million as opposed to 1.2 billion for
domestic. Otherwise the rest of the argument given is fine.

The Greens in this discussion so far, seem hell-bent on justifying this
Bin Tax. What they see is that the mulinationals via GATS via the
EU via politicans have pushed for this tax, and therefore it somehow
satisfies their 'pollution pays principle' slogan. There is no evidence
that they have even remotely thought out the unjust nature of this global
tax, nor of it's social implications in terms of poverty, fairness,
the environment and consequences for public health.

The Greens here also mentioned the 'waivers' and the fact that you can
get a reduction of your Tax for PAYE. These will all disappear when
the bin collection is privatised and anyhow this reductions would still
be just a small part of the bill.

As someone above hinted, the Bin Tax campaign needs to be broadened
to include all other issues. I totally agree with this and I therefore
urge all those connected with the campaign to take the recycling (or lack
of) and incinerator issues on board.

The Greens haven't even got into power yet, and already they are going up
against the mass of the people. Surely this flies in the face of their
so called 'local democracy' principles for which they have spoken about
so often.

In the meantime, the rest of us, will ignore the useless and ineffective
speeches that will be made in the Dail, and will carry out with the
Direct Action campaign of NOT paying for this double tax. The real
issue not for the immediate future is for people to start suggesting
ideas on how we can kickstart recycling proper and campaign to prevent
the incinerators being built.

See also www.noincinerator.com

by Terry Wed May 22, 2002 12:32

Oops! Last sentence of my previous posting should read:

In the meantime, the rest of us, will ignore the useless and ineffective
speeches that will be made in the Dail, and will carry on with the
Direct Action campaign of NOT paying for this double tax. The real
issue for the immediate future is for people to start suggesting
ideas on how we can kickstart recycling proper and a campaign of
Direct Action to prevent the incinerators being built, using the
existing support base from the Bin Tax campaign.

by Terry Wed May 22, 2002 13:05

I just noted a report in the Irish Times today about
the demonstrations yesterday against the Bush visit to
Berlin today. (Major protests are planned for today.
Note: 10,000 police have been drafted into the city)

It says:
'However, a Green Party rally to demonstrate their "critical
solidarity" with the US ended in chaos yesterday when left-wing
demonstrators stormed the stage screaming "traitors" and
"hypocrites" and doused a party leader in lemonade.

So there it is -the Greens siding with Bush's terrorist
war on the poor of the World of which the sole purpose to
to consolidate US (govt + corporate) dominance.

If the Greens sign on with Bertie, are we going to see them
at any more Anti War marches in Dublin. The omens don't look
good.

by Phuq Hedd Wed May 22, 2002 15:19

Unfortunately the Green Party in Germany didn't have much left to sell out. The very same Petra Kelly that was invoked above was busy providing information to the Stasi (E.German political police) while prating about democracy. Career politicians are just that.

by Che Wed May 22, 2002 20:58

I think that C has made some well thought out non dogmatic comments. It is interesting that you prefer a green movement to a party. This is in keeping with the huge amount of international literature and research that is available on 'Social Movements'. Many Social Movements have had huge influence in many parts of latin america and the majority world in general. It seems to me that they have more potential to win success than either the green party or Trotskyist parties such as the SWP. I say this not to be petty, or sectish (I am non party). It is simply that Social Movements have a much greater capacity to mobilise people and are much less hierarchial and top down. There may be a role for a professional parliamentary party, as you suggest but it is a much different role and it does not generally mobilise people, in fact it usually has the opposite effect. I am interested in hearing any further views C has to make on Social Movements etc as your views are are less clouded with party dogma than many activists that contribute to the newswire.

by Fred Thu May 23, 2002 11:53

Every member of the green party eats at least three heads of lettuce a day as part of their 'Talk Green, Eat Green, Be Green But not mean campaign'.

They also have secret meetings in underground tunnels where they plan to take over the world and paint it completely green.

Beware - the Greens have a hidden agenda and use recycling and such campaigns as a front for their real activities.

In reality they are simply individuals that suffer from greenism (a little known disease that manifests itself in people as a desparate addiction for all that is green).

As a result they simply love the colour green and will not rest until they have achieved the only cure to this disease...a green world, and unfortunately this is not metaphorically speaking. In fact, as I write, the green kids (children of individuals with the aforementioned disease) are in underground factories (working under appalling conditions) to manufacture enough green paint to fulfill the above objective.

You have been warned...

By the way all Greens come from Greenland.

by Oliver O'Driscoll Thu May 23, 2002 22:48

Petra Kelly was never a career politician. It's very easy to charge that she assisted the Stasi when she is no longer alive to answer.

by Green - Green Party Fri May 24, 2002 21:07

Just want to stress that the Green PARTY has always been a political party.

It was set up as the Ecology Party, then changed to Green Aliance, then Green Party from 1986/7.

For most of its existence its been a party.

I don't see how anyone could have a problem with that.

A lot of our members are part of the wider Green movement, which the Greens are a part of, but the Green Party is not the movement.

To suggest that is rather rediculous.

In relation to waste charges,

the system in Fingal is the best of the lot. A Green Councillor made sure that the charges would incorporate the polluter pays principle. In Dublin City, the Greens voted for charges on the basis that they would be weight-related. This has not been the case so far, so we do not support the way they're currently being rolled out, but neither are we against them.

You have to remember that the Greens favour allowing householders having free recycling and a charge for what is dumped. But we also favour allowing householders to get the tax back.
We are not pandering to big business. That's nonsense.

Here's the details:
Are you ready for the 4th March, 2002 -
Introduction of new Environment Charge in the Fingal area
Recycle for Free ."You only pay for what you throw away"

From the 4th March, 2002 Fingal County Council will be the first of the four Dublin local authorities to encourage householders to recycle more by charging only for waste presented for collection to landfill

i.e. the grey/black wheeled bin collection on a "tag per bin system". Therefore, householders will only pay
for what they throw away and will recycle free of charge.

Starting on the 4th March 2002, each time a householder leaves out a grey/black wheelie bin for collection the correct priced pre paid tag is to be attached with the name and address of the householder written on it. The bin men will then remove the tag and empty the bin . People will be able to buy tags from local shops, garages etc. (a full list of participating retailers will be forwarded to each householder in advance of the 4th March 2002 along with a complimentary tag valid to the end of March which will help people get used to
the idea of tagging their bin). Watch out for retailers displaying this symbol.

HOW MUCH WILL IT COST ?
The cost for a standard sized 240L bin will be €5 and €2.50 for a smaller sized 120L bin. Since some households in the Fingal area don't yet have a green wheelie bin collection service and therefore cannot divert as much material from landfill as those that do, a reduced price of €3.00 and €1.50 will apply to the 240L bin and 120L bin. The cost reduction will apply only until such time as the householder is provided with a green bin.

WHAT HAPPENS IF I DON'T TAG MY BIN ?
It's simple! It stays on the path uncollected.

WHAT ABOUT TAX RELIEF ?
To qualify for tax relief, you must return your P.P.S. number, (formerly your RSI Number), to the
Revenue Commissioners along with an application form (available from your local tax office) for tax
relief which will be given at the standard rate. Each tag when purchased, will have a counterfoil attached, which you do not attach to the bin but keep to claim tax relief.

WHAT IF I CAN'T AFFORD TO PAY?
1. A waiver of charges may be granted in certain circumstances.

(i) If your sole income is a Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs allowance or pension
or
(ii) Your total income is similar to the above allowance or pension
or
(iii) Where, in the opinion of the Manager, financial hardship would result from payment of the charge.

If you qualify under either of the above headings and provided that there are no other persons residing in
the premises who are in receipt of any income above these limits, you will qualify for a waiver.

The maximum number of tags, which will be given to any household under this scheme in any one year, is 26.

WHEN WILL I GET MY GREEN WHEELIE BIN?
Four new routes, covering some 25,000 households will be introduced during 2002 with one further route to be introduced in early 2003. This service will then cover approximately 80% of the 65,000 households in the Fingal area as planned

WHERE CAN I RECYCLE?
Recycling guides of each electoral area in Fingal have been distributed to each household. If you haven't received one please contact the Environment Section of Fingal County Council at 8905000. A full list of recycling facilities is also available @ www.fingalcoco.ie.

Recycling Facilities in Dunsink and Balleally Civic Amenity Sites include:
Green, Brown and Clear Glass
Aluminium Cans
Newspapers and Magazines
Plastics
Car Batteries
Waste Oil
Green Garden Waste
Clothes
White Electrical Goods e.g. Fridges
Wood
Cardboard

Bring Banks for Recycling White, Brown and Green Glass, Aluminium Cans.
There are over 91 locations throughout Fingal. Do you know where your nearest bring bank is?
If not, check it out……

COMPOST - GOOD FOR THE GARDEN, GOOD FOR THE ENVIRONMENT
Home composting bins are available from Fingal County Council for €19 and €38 Price includes delivery.

Contact Details:
Fingal County Council Environment, Recreation and Amenity Department,
Fingal County Hall,
Swords
Co. Dublin
Phone (01) 890 5000
Fax: (01) 8906299
E.Mail [email protected]

Remember, Recycling is Free. Good For the Environment. Good for You.
You'll only pay for what you throw away.
It's fair and it's the right thing to do.

DID YOU KNOW?
The Dublin Region can cut its dependence on landfill from more than 90% at present to just 16% if the integrated Waste Management Plan adopted by all four Dublin Local Authorities is fully implemented. The plan recommends up to 59% recycling in the region.

"Recycling and the urgent need to manage waste effectively are perhaps the most urgent and immediate challenge facing Fingal County Council" says Willie Soffe, Fingal County Manager. "Unlike a fixed charge the proposed new Environmental charge for the collection of non recyclable waste presented for collection will encourage the householder to become part of the solution by actively promoting the reduction, reuse and recycling of waste to meet the target of diverting 90% of waste from landfill to just 16%"

by DO hEochai - Socialist Party Sun May 26, 2002 00:26

I really must take issue with the repeating of Council propaganda by the Green Party contributor.

"the system in Fingal is the best of the lot. A Green Councillor made sure that the charges would incorporate the polluter pays principle."

Heidi Bidell, Green Party Councillor, originally sponsored a motion for a flat yearly charge for bin collection. It was only after an outcry from local people that the Green Party changed tact and proposed a tag system. In most parts of the country the Green Party have supported the bin tax whether as a flat charge or the tag system. The priority for the Green Party seems to be the implementation of the charge rather than the form it will take. It is another example of the Green Party's willingness to compromise.

"You have to remember that the Greens favour allowing householders having free recycling and a charge for what is dumped. But we also favour allowing householders to get the tax back.
We are not pandering to big business. That's nonsense."

Isn't it amazing that the charge has been levied against ordinary people before any attempt is made to take appropriate measures against the corporations who are responsible for giving us most of the waste in the first place in the form of unneccessary packaging. Isn't it also amazing the the bin tax is introduced before any kind of comprehensive recycling programme is put in place. The tag system or the weight system also discriminate against larger families who will have greater amounts of waste. Allowing taxpayers to get the tax back is useless for workers who are already outside the tax net, those workers who can least afford to pay.

"WHAT HAPPENS IF I DON'T TAG MY BIN ?
It's simple! It stays on the path uncollected."

AS a result of the court action taken by Joe Higgins and Clare Daly on March 29th - ALL bins must be collected irrespective of whether they have a tag attached or not. Indeed as a result of new by-laws introduced by the Council and supported by the Green Party, some people who have tagged their bin have not had it collected. 90% of people in the Fingal area are refusing to pay the bin tax and Fingal County Council have already spent more than €200,000 in its propaganda campaign to get the charge accepted.

As I have outlined earlier in this discussion the bin tax is not about waste management and recycling, it is about forcing ordinary people to pay an extra tax. The inevitable consequence of the bin tax is the privatisation of the bin collection service and private contractors are interested in increasing the amount of waste they collect rather than reduce it, for profit purposes. This is the experience all over the country where bin charges have existed forthe past three or four years, with constant increases each year. If anyone in the Green Party thinks otherwise then they are being rather foolish. But then I have forgotten that the Green Party are "neither right or left but in Front" (to quote Trevor Sargent). Clearly they are open to the prospect of privatisation of public services when "circumstances dictate". Have the Green Party ever lead a public campaign against privatisation? The lack of such opposition speaks volumes for the principles of the Green Party.