Time for a secular Indymedia?

by the jesuit Mon Jun 09, 2003 19:51

Well if they are not to be removed, then perhaps they should receive an "Imprimatur" .....

by Eoin Mc Mahon Mon Jun 09, 2003 20:03

I think we should concentrate on looting the vatican and using the money to educate/feed the worlds poor people.The catholic workers may believe in fairytales,but if their actions can help to make a change in the world,I believe they deserve as much of a platform for discourse as anyone else.

by Janus Mon Jun 09, 2003 20:22

Indymedia was set up to provide a forum for debate. It's only a progressive service because the people who use it are progressive and, I suppose, the idea of it is progressive. But this does not mean that there is some sort of ideological criteria that one has to fulfill before they can post, despite what some people might think. I've no objection to Catholics, of whatever political or economic philosophy using Indymedia. I disagree with them fundamentally but they're as entitled to pray to their entity as I am to ignore it and, when in a bad mood, mock their belief system and denigrate their philosophy.

by no 6 Mon Jun 09, 2003 20:46

The catholic workers are using this site as their personnal blog, it's just a constant stream of their wants, needs, actions and forthcoming events.

It's advertising and abuse of the wire

by Daithi Mon Jun 09, 2003 21:00

I agree that the wire is being abused, but anything that we should do would be based on the volume, proportion and frequency of postings rather than any quasi-fascist religious test. If the person who wrote this article wants a bubble where they are not exposed to a variety of views, then I respectfully suggest that they go someplace else. No Indymedia site worth its salt imposes that sort of viewpoint censorship, and I believe that there would be widespread opposition to an attempt to do so on IMC Ireland. But if you like, you could put it forward. Maybe you could also suggest that only approved versions of socialism should be dealt with one the site. Maybe a racial qualification, too, while you're at it?

It has already been said on the IMC mailing list that the amount of CW press releases will be dealt with; what we usually do is combine them into one article, which is fair to the posters, other contributors, and site readers and users. We have done this before and will continue to do so, showing no bias towards the CWs or the SWP or the Three-Headed Morris Dancers of Ballydehob, just our unhappiness with any monopolisation of front page space - which is not necessarily malicious or deliberate, but it's something we have to deal with.

by iosaf Mon Jun 09, 2003 21:37

or are there any left?

by simon Tue Jun 10, 2003 00:24

You can't pick or choose those that you debate with in an open forum. Thats for the main-stream media. your concern concerns me as it's a creeping intolerance.
Its up to the listener to filter and validate the information given on a forum like this. If you get your way you'll end up debating with yourself and a closed community of like minded-people, is that what you want?
I dont ascribe to any religious or particular political motivation(SWP, GR, BB, etc) but in an open debate I have to accept their views and propose my own - i.e. DEBATE.
I would actually like to bend the rules and accept the postings of fascists and nazi and corporate PR 'agents' etc. as a means to stimulate some real debate. I mean were supposed to be intelligent people with a certain level of self-governance so what are we afraid of. If you are diametrically opposed to somebody or some thing you should welcome the oppportunity to enter a discussion with them.

I think your concern is almost fascistic and you should think deeper about what you are saying. Anyway this thread isnt news so should probably be deleted.

by Corran - IAWM & GR Tue Jun 10, 2003 01:39 semplebarry at hotmail dot com

If theres anyhthing i have learnt in the past few months its the diversity of views people have on almost every concievable subject under the sun. To me, the greatest aspect of indymedia is that it provides a platform for all of these thoughts.
Some i agree with, some i dont. But thats not the point. The point is i have the opportunity to decide what i agree with and what i dont. To me thats the greatest asset of independent media. Freedom, not only to write whatever you want, but to read whatever you want.
If people dont agree with the CWs and other religious groups, thats fine, just dont read them. To help people decide what they want to read it might help to have a special section for religious organisations posts.

by Daithi Tue Jun 10, 2003 02:15

Corran, you have it absolutely spot on, and I appreciate the clarity of what you are saying - right till the end, where you talk about "special sections for religious organisations posts" - in my opinion that's pretty awful. Should we have a special section for posts by or about women? Racial minorities? A gay-only ghetto? We are introducing categories based on the subjects (anti-war, environment etc) of posts, but I would find it abhorrent to have categories based on the religious affiliation of the author. I don't think any person reading stories has any kind of right to be protected from religious or non-religious views, it is absolutely not a function of any media outlet, let alone a peer-reviewed open publishing newswire, to interfere in this way.

There will be no pandering to prejudice, no ghettos, and no yellow stars on this site, not at the behest of 'secular' or anyone else.

by gosh! Tue Jun 10, 2003 02:59

It looks like full on abusive comments against the Catholic Workers hasn't worked. So their opponents are now trying to silence them on this effective forum.

Your methods are getting subtler, but still apparent.

Why not join the anti-war cause instead of criticizing those who will lose their libery opposing war?

by confessor Tue Jun 10, 2003 03:11

Perhaps there is a catholic worker cadre who would answer the charges (infallabilty believing, youth defense, miracles...) and write about the political contradictions within these movements in the cathlolic church.

by Ciaron O'Reilly Tue Jun 10, 2003 04:00

Get "Demanding the Impossible - A History of Anarchism" (a real big book -remember books???!!!???-so take care getting it off the shelf)...look up the index between Oppenheimer and Orwell and you've tracked me down baby!

Yup sad stats....50,000 troops pass through the country, 100,000 march and 18 arrests. One could conclude there just ain't much happening, when it comes to groups willing to confront state power in Ireland.

Our support group met tonight in Dublin. There were 13 not counting the defendants, two practising Catholics (one gay, one straight)...the rest of the folks come from all sorts of libertarian perspectives, that the trolls and cops sabpotaging this site and trying to sabotage our trial support don't spring.....mores the pity!

For the cyber-trainspotters take a chill pill chances are we'll be off the web for a good 1-5 years in the next few weeks..(maybe take up another hobby in the meantime)..and you can go back to the medium is the massage..... okey dokey!

by ETC Tue Jun 10, 2003 05:22

Who cares if they're catholic or whatever? IMC was put up to keep people informed about issues, and if Catholic Worker has more to say than some of you then deal with it. By erasing all religion from the site, we would be preaching intolerance and losing people who would be informed about local and global issues. Plus, I'm sure half of you wouldn't be bitching as much if it was a Muslim group getting attention since it's the anarchist thing to do, to stick up for the more easy a target even if the situation is the same for a more popular group. Face it, religion isn't going anywhere, and I'm all for looting the Vatican and feeding the poor worldwide, but is it right to ban all religion from IMC? NO!

by redjade Tue Jun 10, 2003 07:08

The Catholic Worker (and Ireland's CW5) have a legit place on the spectrum of the Irish Left as much as anyone else.

While other groups have gone back to fighting Bin Taxes, Editors, the G-8 boys and such (all good and important issues, by the way) these folks are facing years in prison and are still actively organising against the war.

And let us remember, the war is not over and Shannon is still being used by the USA.

Their Trial is happening at the end of the month in Kilrush (probably) and they need everyone's support and solidarity.

While all the defendants (the 18) need the same, this group's trial is happening soon and the news and activism is current - THAT IS WHY WE SEE SO MANY POSTINGS, it's called news and activism - which is what this website is all about.

There are many posts because there is a lot happening right now. And, you will see more posts in the near future because more will be happening.

Also notice, that not all the posting at from Ciaron but from others that the CW5ers have been networking with in different parts of Ireland - they are building a solidarity network across Ireland and different groups and people are using Indymedia.ie appropriately by announcing events and efforts on this site.

We have all seen some of the same reaction to various posts about Caoimhe Butterly, although she is not a CW5er I think some associate her with them because of the religious thing. Once again, you will see different posts from different people from across Ireland.

To the critics: Just because other people motivations against this war are not identical to your own doesn't mean the CW's are illegit, nor does the CW or other religiously motivated Lefties deserve any attempt at censorship.

Diversity of tactics - diversity of motivations - diversity of opinions, always.

by a secular humanist Tue Jun 10, 2003 09:01

What is missing from this discussion and attempt at censorship is that 'secular' does not mean an athiest society.

Religion is always freely practiced in a secular society. In the Soviet Union and other 'socialist' states religion was banned and the Party became the new 'religion'

So what exactly is being proposed here? and what is the bias of the author?

The fact is, religion is freer in a secular society because the state cannot dictate an official religion.

The starting post is either a troll or a crass attempt at political correctness.

by Anonymous Tue Jun 10, 2003 09:29

I agree with Daithi's editorial comments.

And Redjade comment:-

"Diversity of tactics - diversity of motivations -diversity of opinions, always."

Right on.

And to the Catholic Workers who were and are in jail while most of us sit in the comfort and safety of our homes.

Respect.

by John Cunningham - GalwayAllianceAgainstWar Tue Jun 10, 2003 10:09

If there is to be censorship on Indymedia, one might start with ignorant and innacurate remarks like those made in the original posting on this thread. 'Secular' (why hide your identity) mentions Fr Pat O'Brien and then goes on to say:
"these people can be quite regressive on most issues such as divorce, abortion papal infallibility, they work with Youth Defence on many occasions. One of the only reasons they were against the war was because their pope came out against it."
This is gutter journalism of the worst sort —guilt by association and without a shred of evidence.
Activists in Galway respect Pat O'Brien. Some of them remember that he spoke in favour of divorce when it mattered, and that he organised a bus-load of his rural parishioners to join in the anti-Reagan protests of the 1980s. It is good to see that unlike many of the more 'secular' activists of that era, he is still at it.

by jc Tue Jun 10, 2003 11:06

here we got nazis, zionists, commies, anarchists, capitalists, gobshites, mystics etc. They all got something to say, but you don't have to belive it if you don't want.

by Andrew Tue Jun 10, 2003 11:13

Ciaran arguing about the numbers of arrests seems a bit silly but why do you keep giving this figure of 18? IE "Yup sad stats....50,000 troops pass through the country, 100,000 march and 18 arrests"

Two dates at Shannon alone saw 19 arrests (March 1st (10) and October 12 (9 or 10). 3 more were arrested in the days before March 1st because the cops thought they were scopping out the airport. Then there were Mary Kelly, Eoin Dubsky and the CW5 (including yourself). Thats 29 people. There were other arrests at Shannon as well (almost every demonstration saw at least 1) and of course the two more Catholic Workers on Good Friday.

And Bush's visit to the north saw an additional 17 arrests, there were another couple at the Dail blockadea week or so after the war started.

Anyway the real arrest total is somewhere around 60 (and could he higher, there do seem to be quite a few forgotten/never hear of arrests). Why minimise it? I ask because I have posted similar corrections in the past.

by Dave Donnellan Tue Jun 10, 2003 11:15

The first obvious point about this post is that it's anonymous. For whatever reason 'Secular' did not feel free to identify him or herself. There may be a quite legitimate reason for the anonymity but when you consider that he or she is levelling criticisms at people who have come very much up front about what they believe and where they stand, and are facing serious consequences as a result, I think it should be taken into account. Hiding behind anonymity suggests you have have a weak argument.

If 'Secular' could hold his/her breath long enough and maybe consider actually reading through some of the material suggested he/she might avoid such nonsense as 'they work with Youth Defence on many occasions.'Anyone with even the remotest knowledge of either Cw or Youth Defense would know they are about as pally as the Pope and Madonna. Ignorance breeds prejudice.

It is obvious, though, that CW gets up Secular's nose. If only someone could make them go away. Get them off the newswire then everything would be fine. Secular is no doubt in very powerful company in this desire. The CW come out of a very long (3000 years) prophetic tradition within (sorry for using dirty words 'Secular') Catholicism. And prophets were very good at getting up people's noses, Which is why they were all killed. I believe the CW have as much right to air their views as anybody else and any attempt at silencing them should be robustly resisted.

by Joe Tue Jun 10, 2003 11:29

48 arrests or possible summons as of March 10th, see
http://www.indymedia.ie/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi?id=33594

by Justin Morahan - Peace People Tue Jun 10, 2003 12:02 justinmorahan at eircom dot net

The presistent efforts to blacken the Catholic Workers, and censor or forbid their postings is despicable.
Political censorship is the most patent sign of fear and the Catholic Workers during their short stay with us have given the anti-war movement such a fillip that warmongers are really and truly afraid of their impact.
Great for the Catholic Workers, I say.
Another favourite ploy of the pro-war people is to try to cause divisiveness within the anti-war movement itself.
And they try this even within the brave activist movement of which the Catholic Worker 5 along with Mary Kelly are the leading lights - and facing the longest jail sentences. We cannot let them do this. All the other brave activists, including pioneer Eoin Dubsky, know that they are also honoured and are never forgotten.
We, the supporters of all these brave people, must be wary to counter the lies and prejudices - and we will need to be even more wary and doggedly persistent in doing this if and when these six brave people go to jail again.
Why anyone should try to forbid a group's postings because of their religion is hard to fathom.
There's an old song that begins:

"While we honour in song and in story
The names of our patriot dead . . ."

The names of Mary Kelly, and the 5 Catholic Workers, Karen Fallon, Deirdre Clancy, Nuin Dunlop, Damian Moran and Ciaron O'Reilly are the names of our living patriots. No need for them to carry guns or bombs to be true patriots - and their patriotrism, like their nationalities, is broader than the "patria": it is world embracing.
I salute their courage and their humanity and I couldn't give two fiddlers what their religion is.
I respect their inalienable right to hold to their religious principles and I respect them as persons for doing so.
I hope that they and all who have carried out similar acts of bravery from whatever fountain of inspiration will be honoured forever in our memory.

by Katrin Tue Jun 10, 2003 12:56 tkdkatrin at hotmail dot com

after reading most of the comments regarding the above stated issue,i came to the conclusion that, thank god, most people are decent and have some kind of pride as well as a clear mind.
How much does it matter if the stories placed on indymedia are put there by catholics.liberalists or whoever.We all have free speech and this isnt about being catholic or trying to get people to join into catholizism.this is about a war that was wrong from its very begining.I find it amazing that people have the courage to stand up for what they believe in such a strong manner. all the other articles posted by catholic workers are contributing towards highly important issues.
forget about religion and dividing and categorising people.thats not the point and it only brings arguments and sauer faces.this is a place where info is shared.and thats all it is.some people seem to try getting control over the nature of the info that is shared.I hope they will never succeed.
At last, good luck to all the guys who will be in the trial.I hope that you will have the mediacoverage you deserve and that what you have done will be recognised for what it is.An act of peace and an attempt to make the world a little bit more aware and maybe even better.

Love and Light Katrin

by o' as if Tue Jun 10, 2003 13:07

Anarko- Bolsheviko- Peacenik- islam
Autonomy- Commie- Catholic- Republican

by sofia (wisdom) Tue Jun 10, 2003 13:08

There will be neither Peace nor Justice if not.

by fubar Tue Jun 10, 2003 14:22

To suggest that there should be a 'news ghetto' for the CW/PP or any others, is quite frankly repugnant sectarianism, and smells of petit burgesses thinking.

How the hell can you qualify free speech in such a manner and still look at yourself in the mirror?

Fraternity & LIBERTY

by -9- - GR Tue Jun 10, 2003 14:57

Diversity is very precious for the movement.
If you look at other countries where the movement is very strong, like italy for example, a number of radical catholic organisation are directly involved in the anti-capitalist, anti-globalisation, global justice movement.
In my opinion the more we are the better it is.
I don't believe in any religion, but I do believe that this sort of prejudice agaist the CW is bad.
On Indymedia there's enough space for everyone.

by Who's yer Daddy? Tue Jun 10, 2003 15:09

Has someone the hump with the CW cos they are actually doing something.

by Ignatius the Indignant - (he never went away) Tue Jun 10, 2003 15:23 Rome (where we left him looking after Ratzinger, the Pope [great man] and Opus Dei. you remember Ignatius don't you¿?

(If you can't take a teasing you must be a Shinner).

Now folks, the Catholic Workers as we know are affiliated to the 5th International of Freakie Hippy trippy loved up Anarkisty Muppets, they are the "white block".

There are many good "classical" Anarchistic reasons for accepting them.
C/F
http://www.infoshop.org/religion
There are also for them many good "classical" Theological reasons for accepting the 5th International.

& then there is "Liberation Theology".
oh yes.
The Theology of Liberation is ·very important· for many reasons.
1. South Americans who believe in "God" have a narrow choice for organaised practice. They may choose Opus Dei backed rightwing nasty crypto-fascist type preaching or they may go for sattelite broadcast US$ funded evangelicism. This is worse only marginally than the OD type...or they may choose to organise themselves according to the base prinicipals of Liberation Theology communities. Think El Salvador, think Argentina, think Leonardo Boff.
**[cue someone's ideas on Leondardo Boff please]**
2. The theology of Liberation as expressed and developed by other it might be mentioned slightly censured philosophers of the modern Church of Rome is so far the only "wing" of that aforementioned "geopolitical estate" to attempt encraochment with Islam.
3. The base of our beliefs be they secular or theologically grounded are _·ethical·_ do not believe that anyone in our movement feels the way they do simply because Hegalian dialectics postulates the eventual victory of the proletariat...it just aint so.

meanwhile.....
as the slagging continues

The Catholic Workers in Ireland look like an 11am Sunday folk mass, and probably don't smoke enough drugs.
(and where as I may say in all interests of solidarity that Mr O'as if once fucked a Swimmie I might not say that of the CW).

by -iosaf Tue Jun 10, 2003 15:29

if you goto infoshop you will see nicely displayed a page on Catholic Worker.
see we ·do· think well of them.
=GOD BLESS 'em!
oh and the infoshop website has been educating everyone for years, and years and now needs "money" to go.
same story everywhere.
so if you can manage 5€=5$ once in a while send it their way. or send it to IMC ireland once the gang figure out a way of asking ye all for it without compromising the sacred pricipals.....might i just add that from the photographic evidence some of the CW are quite cute and if any feel like breaking that "sticky thou shallt not" mail me for apostasy.

by Authoritarian Trot Tue Jun 10, 2003 15:53

Anarchists seem to praise the actions of the CWers and then attack everyone else for raising difficulties with their Catholic ideas.

Anarchists then do not praise the actions of socialists and then attack them for their Socialist ideas.

Anarchists: why dont you attack the CWers with the same vitriol as you do Socialists?

by Ray Tue Jun 10, 2003 16:07

If the CWers have right-wing Catholic positions on issues like divorce, abortion, women priests or similar issues - and that's a very big IF - they don't spend their time working on those issues, they don't tie those issues to the anti-war campaign, and they don't push them on other campaigners.
Why should we criticise them for positions they may not even hold, and certainly don't make a big deal of?
The SP and SWP on the other hand, are constantly proclaiming their socialism, selling their papers, talking about how wonderful Lenin was, and how they are revolutionaries. Which makes it perfectly reasonable for everyone else to criticise them on those issues.
Do you understand yet?
If _you_ make a big deal of something, then _we_ might make a big deal of it too.
If _you_ think these other beliefs are secondary, and far less important than the campaign you are working on, then _we_ might agree.

by Andrew Tue Jun 10, 2003 16:09

There are two reasons

1. They are all facing jail time at the moment, they are a fairly isolated bunch and in that context I'd prefer not to isolate them further.

2. Attack them for what?

I mean we 'attack' trots because of the crap you have come out with from your mass murder of revolutionaries in 1918-21 to your sabotage of the Shannon protests. I'm not aware of any Catholic Worker crimes that come near this. So I don't have much to attack them for beyond a rather general critique of religion as such and the contradictions I see in their use of the anarchist label. But really indymedia is boring enough without starting off that thread.

If you mean why don't I take the anonymous rumors posted by members of the SP seriously well I've seen you use the same tactic re: other anarchists. I think its up to you to produce evidence for your claims, not up to Ciaran and co to waste time disproving your vaguries.

by *$* Tue Jun 10, 2003 16:50

As a taoist myself I find the first post offensive. A seperate thread for religous posts? As if voices on the left are not ghettoised enough already!
CW have put their liberty on the line for their anti-war beliefs and as such deserve solidarity & support rather than being shunned.

Well played to the lads & lasses of the CW!

by .iosaf (goes red) Tue Jun 10, 2003 20:50

Groups such as CW do much to rehablitate organised religious belief in the eyes of all.
& let us be honest "Vaticantics" is poo poo.
just like the Spanish inquisition {their chief weapons being stealth and surprise}

more anarkistys have been victims of the RC organised religious cultural imperialist "estate" than were victims of the Red Bolsheviks.

think Spain.think Irelandish about 1922-1994 think Italy.
erughhhhhhhhhh.
exactly! which is why Igantius the Indignant was left in Rome.

by Deirdre Clancy - Catholic Worker Wed Jun 11, 2003 00:56 dee_clancy at yahoo dot co dot uk 086 151 2013

My purpose here is not to defend our existence or motives to people who are determined to have a problem with us. I am proud to call myself a part of the CW movement and make no apologies for it. The person who posted this hasn't a clue about the movement or its motivations or history - this is obvious. However, I do object when lies are posted up about our individual group, so I just want to make a few factual corrections with regard to myself (for ethical reasons I don't want speak on behalf of the other four). I have never had any contact with Youth Defence, and if confronted with them would actively avoid them. I am a long-standing feminist who disagrees with the Church stance on many issues to do with women's role in society and Church. I am dismayed at the attitude of the Church toward people in second relationships and toward the gay community. I did not oppose the war because the pope came out against it, I opposed it because I knew it was ethically and morally wrong, and motivated by economic/capitalistic considerations. I speak only for myself on all of these issues, but I can safely say that our group is diverse in nature and the broadness of opinion in it reflects that diversity (and that this diversity is not only tolerated, but celebrated in our group).

Having dealt with "secular's" blatant attempt to propagate falsehood, based on her/his own primitive and unreconstructed assumptions about anything with Christianity as a component of its philosophy, I can only add in response to another posting that I intensely dislike trendy folk masses, and avoid them like the plague. I would much rather listen to gregorian chant than a bunch of people in woolly jumpers singing Simon and Garfunkel songs to the accompaniment of off-tune strumming. Call it a hangover from overexposure to same during my '70s upbringing, call it what you like, but please get over your tired old stereotypes and direct your ire toward a merited target, such as the Irish government or the U.S. administration or capitalism and its effects. Or, if you want to criticise us, get your facts right before you do so and provide a decent, well thought-out critique instead of a reactionary rant that stinks of the fundamentalism of which you accuse us. Then you'll be worth engaging with.

by IMC-idiots=ethical censorship Wed Jun 11, 2003 01:08

You shouldnt even have had to write as much as
you did to debunk these fools.

Good luck with the trial

by Secular Wed Jun 11, 2003 02:55

The CW believe in things like Transubstantiation (ie where a piece of WAFER turns into the BODY of a DEAD man!!!). This is a fucking crazy, backward and reactionary idea. What about Science!! CW also have problems with homosexuals, they only believe in heterosexual monogamy inside marriage and decree all other relationships to be sinful! Sorry but that is backward.

What about the pope! This is a man that is undemocratically appointed for life by a bunch or reactionary cardinals and the CW believe he is infallable. The CW support this! This is reactionary and is certainly far form the anarchists ideals they supposedly support.

No amount of Direct Action can reverse these facts.

by Quizmaster Wed Jun 11, 2003 08:08

> (ie where a piece of WAFER turns into the BODY of a DEAD man!!!).
- FALSE

> CW also have problems with homosexuals, they only believe in heterosexual monogamy inside marriage and decree all other relationships to be sinful!
- FALSE

> CW believe [the pope] is infallable. The CW support this!
- FALSE

>No amount of Direct Action can reverse these facts.
- TRUE

by pope Joan Wed Jun 11, 2003 14:49

This happened last week during the Polish referendum on joining the EU. Indymedia hacks just censor certain views they do not agree with or even ones they cannot understand etc

by Ciaron O'Reilly Wed Jun 11, 2003 14:53

Cardinal of L.A. ...after LA Cattholic Workers occupied the top of the old cathedral and hung the quote from Bishop Romero "We Will Not Build a New Cathedral until every Salvadoran has a Roof over Their Head"...and blockade his turf turning ceremony for the construction of a new $multimillion LA cathedral,,,
"The Catholic Worker is not atholic in the big "c" or the little "c".

Things had been a little touchy since the LACW had come out against the Cradinals purchase of a chopper to avoid LA traffic on getting the job.

The Cardinal got it wrong as a lot of you folks are getting it wrong...do some reading. There's lots of reading out there both academic and movement stuff on the Catholic Worker...go for it. "Entertaing Angels" not a great movie, but a good start is in your local video store.

by Secular Wed Jun 11, 2003 15:29

Would the CWers please answer the questions raised about their beliefs on this thread.

My understanding that that they are CATHOLIC workers. Therefore they believe in PAPAL INFALIBILITY, TRANSUBSTANTIATION, etc.

These are the TENETS of the Catholic faith. They DO belive in these things!

No amount of dodging by Ciaron O'Reilly can hide this. Stop talking about individual protests you had with a Bishop and answer questions about Tenets of your Faith!

These are reactionary ideas, and should be criticised by those on the left!

by Durutti Wed Jun 11, 2003 15:42

Trots believe in the "Dictatorship of the Proletarist" and "Democratic Centralism". Go question them about that you SP scumbag.

by Ray Wed Jun 11, 2003 15:44

You start by saying that the CWers oppose abortion, divorce, women priests etc, and that they work with Youth Defence.
You get shot down for that, and now you're reduced to raving about transubstantiation. What the fuck does that have to do with anything?
Same old anonymous nonsense. Funny how so many anonymous posters and SP posters simultaneously decided to attack CW, isn't it?

by -9- - GR Wed Jun 11, 2003 15:54

Secular your accusations are ridiculous, they have already answered you questions telling facts.

Solidarity to the CWs

by Joe Wed Jun 11, 2003 15:56

All the more so because they use the same methods (unsubstantiated mud slinging) as the SP is using elsewhere. (Or maybe that should be transubstanted mud slinging?).

You gotta love the SP method in general though, wait till some group is under attack from the state and then start attacking them as well.

by *$* Wed Jun 11, 2003 16:11

Secular - the CW are not the Jesuits or Opus Dei. As far as I'm aware (and I'm not a member) they are not a group of crusaders standing shoulder to shoulder with the pope fighting on behalf of lecherous paedo priests.

Please take the time to read up on the subject before parading your ignorance on this thread.

by LightRelief Wed Jun 11, 2003 16:37

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0053/0053_01.asp

by Yossarian Wed Jun 11, 2003 17:51

As far as I understand, there is a world of a difference between a roman catholic and a catholic, in that a roman catholic is theoretically obliged to believe in a particular doctrine (or dogma, if you like) whereas a catholic is a much broader term that encapsulates many of the better known christian religions including *gasp* protestants!
It follows that they do not necessarily believe in what the roman catholic church decrees because they are not necessarily roman catholics. Check out your religous studies, secular. Oh, and being "secular" is no excuse for being ignorant on matters religous (as if, you're just a trolling scumbag).

by Katrin Wed Jun 11, 2003 17:52 tkdkatrin at hotmail dot com

well just a short note from my side regarding seculars comments.
I have absolutly nothing to do with the CW and i dont even agree to the catholic religion.Nevertheless I dont waste anybodys time by stating stupid arguments that are half the time not even based on facts and therefor untrue.what are you playing? Silly beggar games? wake up and get a life as well as a bit of sense, so that you will be able to read up about the CW and what they do.I believe there was a link just posted above somewhere.
This isnt about religious groups but about information.Unfortunatly you dismissd this somehow.
Hopefully CW will carry on with their good work.good luck for the trial. and respect for standing up for what you believe.Not many people have the courage to do so.

L&L Katrin

by OK - SP Wed Jun 11, 2003 22:45

I think that everyone should stand back and have a read of this thread, it's crazy.

Someone raises crudely put criticisms of the Catholic Workers- then people hound that person, and guess what? the SP (who are the source of all evil) are now to blame!

The SP would never approach the question of religion in the crude manner of 'secular'.

by Tom Shelley Thu Jun 12, 2003 00:36

You don't know how pissed off I am about this. I don't know exactly what the situation in Ireland is, but there is a ton of anti-Catholicism on the American left, and it sickens me.

I consider myself a spiritual Catholic who leads a very secular life. I haven't been to a regular church service since my mom's funeral, but I have twice since then gon on retreat at a monastery in southern Colorado (they're Carmelites, the only monastic order with both men and women, and they actually have a monastery in Sligo). I largely keep my religion and politics seperate, but I have a lot of respect for people like the Catholic Workers.

Secular assumes that all Catholics follow the Church's line on abortion, divorce, and homosexuality. First, contrary to popular belief, many/most Catholics feel free to some extent, to diagree with some of what the Church says. This applies to some right-wingers who are pro- death penalty, but also of course to liberals-leftists on abortion, homosexuality, and I dobt more than 1% of Catholics seriously still oppose divorce. There's also the fact that, in America, most Catholics are liberal Democrats and most of the Christian Right is Protestant. And you seem to ignore the fact that most Muslim societies are at least as patriarchal and homophobic as the Catholic Church is. And although I'm not certain, I imagine a good chunk of Jews have similar attitudes.

Also, even for those Catholics who ARE pro-life/anti-choice, it doesn't neccessarily mean they are right-wing or sexist. Overwhelmingly most American Catholics are pro-life but liberal on everything else (in some cases, besides sexual orientation). And although I am personally pro-choice, I can understand how many Catholics and others are pro-life not because they hate women or something, but because they belief that life begins at conception.

As far as papal infallibility, I doubt many Catholics take this too seriously. Catholics are NOT THE BORG!!! (Star Trek).

I have no idea what problem you have with trans-substantiation. First, I don't think many Catholics take it too literaly, but see it simply as symbolic. And even if they do, how the hell is that reactionary?

Secular can go fuck himself.

Tom

by Durutti Thu Jun 12, 2003 10:19

Your SP supporter Hilda Robinson makes the exact same attacks on CW.

by Secular Thu Jun 12, 2003 10:51

I dont think that nayone can divorce their politics and religion. Surely your personal beliefs exend into both your political and religious beliefs.

Religion is the opium of the masses! Religion is used by the rulers to keep people thinking of the 'next world' when everything nasty in this world will be gone. RUBBISH! fight for change in this worrld NOW!

It's correct for leftists to be hostile to religion. Religion is bad for the workers movement.

Especially the Catholic religion. These people believe in the infallibility of the pope! and mysticism of Wafer turning into the flesh of a dead man!

SEPARATE CHURCH AND STATE!
RELIGION OUT OF THE WORKERS' MOVEMENT!

by secular Thu Jun 12, 2003 10:52

The belief in transubstantiation is reactionary and backward because it denies and defies science. It is NOT rational in any way to say that a piece of wafer turns into the body or blood of a dead man. It is trying to go back to the middle ages when people mixed science with mysticism and thought the world was round , god created the world etc. I can't see how anyone can really justify this backward idea.

Catholics do believe in papal infallibility. That is the faith, if you do not agree with it you should leave the RC church.

"life begins at conception" Again more rubbish put about by reactionary bishops to subordinate women. i take your point about a late term pregnency being life but NOT an embryo! How can you say that an embryo should be given the same legal status as a grown woman?!

by secular Thu Jun 12, 2003 10:54

Correction

The line in the 1st paragraph should read "the world WASN'T round "

by Ray Thu Jun 12, 2003 11:08

Willing to come clean about your party affiliations? Or do honesty, and the willingness to stand up for what you believe in, not have a part to play in the worker's movement?

by S'tan Thu Jun 12, 2003 12:39

Let's put the buggers up against the wall. Forget the fact they are fellow travellers.

Having weeeded out the bloody jesus freaks who is next? the trots? the greens? maoists? dirty syndicalists? those brick wielding anarkos?musicians? the bearded? Bloody judean peoples front?

Forward to the revloution brother!

by *$* Thu Jun 12, 2003 12:44

oi, satan you forgot the fecking shinners! and the cunt who works in Laser that always looks down his nose at us.....

by pat c Thu Jun 12, 2003 13:05

the farmers, taxi drivers, hippies, vegans, teachers, cat haters!

by *$* Thu Jun 12, 2003 13:19

don't forget those with pollen allergies, the rhythmically challenged, owners of dogs on strings, Meteor customers. Hang on what about all the poxy left-handed - never trusted any of them, awkward fucks....

by Ciaron Thu Jun 12, 2003 13:25

Football maybe the opiate of the masses...are you going to ban football from the anarchist picnic or radically rediscover it.

by Vova - none Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:37 HeavenHasFire777 at yahoo dot com

Given the blood of 20 million Orthodox Christian peasants that kicked of the leftist reign of terror in the last century calls out for at least memory and that the Catholic Workers or whoever are still happy to have anything to do with Marxist sworn enemnies of Christ our God, I shouldnt worry about them posting here. They are obviously not Christians. We know that life is short, this world and it's wickedness passes away, and that the Life of the Age is to come is without ending. Unlike Marxists, Progressive Democrats or the current Pope in Rome we have no earthly city. Please Catholic Workers think of eternity. Leftists like rightists of the Justin Barret variety are motivated by hate, therefore however worthy the causes they epouse they can only produce evil fruit. History shows this clearly. Capitalists are driven by greed but greed is a less evil passion by anger and hatred if also sinfull.
Mankind has choosen to strive aganist God, to build its towers of Babel and will not pull back till it has filled up its cup of wrath to the very top- then she will drink it, most certainly when Christ comes in Glory to destory the Anti-Christ and his servants from the current Pope of Rome to Geogre Bush to indymedia.
Through the prayers of St Tsar Martry Nicholas and all the Russian passion bearers may Christ our God grant great mercy!