GR open letter to SIPTU leadership

by Red October 1917 Wed May 15, 2002 15:58

Des Geraghty is a bureaucrat. Hes a highy paid bureaucrat.

"Our goal is to build a broad-based anti-capitalist movement, and to achieve this we need to emphasise common ground amongst left-wing groups, environmentalists, anarchists, trade unions and individuals"

Does GR believe Mr.Geraghty is anti capitalist? Because if that is the thinking in the GR, whats next? Hailing Ruraidh Quinn as the next "lenin"?

Mr. Geraghty was very quiet when the disgraceful minimum wage was introduced ( it was £4. 70p old money and only open to experienced workers and those over 18)

What I have to say is this the siptu leadership is a break on the workers it truely is. The leadership of most trade unions unfortunately has drifted to the centre. I agree however that the trade union movement has a key role to play in the future of the workers. But it is imperitive to regain the Trade Unions and make them militant and left wing again fighting for workers rights, which unfortunately, the current leadership just isnt doing .

by hecklers for hecklers rights Wed May 15, 2002 15:59

i don't believe I am reading this as it stands on the head opinions about this incident expressed to me by gr members

who's afraid of the big bad social - partner boys and girls

by Myles Wed May 15, 2002 16:02

This is pathetic.
Anyhow, Des's daughter, Nora, wrote a message to indymedia saying that Joe Carolan would report on his actions on the indymedia newswire (contacts with the media, what he told them, etc.). We are still waiting. Why are you hiding, Joe? We know that you read this newswire.

by tc Wed May 15, 2002 16:11

myles i think nora would ask him to reply, thats up to him. I think the real problem is that des here deserved the heckle after all at the time he was talking about solidarity (yet he showed none to mick o reilly). From the public announcements by des his view of soildarity must be sleeping with ibec and ff. GR is a broad based group with members with different ideas but this is stupid.

by myles Wed May 15, 2002 16:28

broad based group with people of different ideas!?
i'm sure that you're joking, aren't you? otherwise, it'd be a quite serious case of allucination.

by Ray Wed May 15, 2002 16:31

Dear Garda Commissioner,

Globalise Resistance regrets the behaviour of some of its members on Bank Holiday Monday and would like to assure you that most of those involved were not GR members. As you know protesters are a diverse group and some have strong views concerning the right of people to hold street parties. We would like you to know that the behaviour of these people does not reflect the views of Globalise Resistance as a group.

We value the work of the Gardai in our movement and hope that we can work together to ensure future protests will be more well-behaved. Such members as have issues to raise with you have agreed in future to discuss them in a more appropriate setting. We suggest the polling booth, or perhaps a TD's clinic.

Our goal is to build a broad-based anti-capitalist movement, and to achieve this we need to emphasise common ground amongst left-wing groups, environmentalists, anarchists, trade unions, 'workers in uniform', bureaucrats, priests, politicians, friendly capitalists, and anyone else we can think of. It is not our intention to marginalize or intimidate anyone who shares our vision for a better social structure. Nor is it our intention to do anything which could possibly cause offence to those with whom we disagree, or engage in any behaviour that is likely to cause a breach of the peace. With these contradictory and meaningless goals in mind, we would like to encourage intelligent debate and hope that in this way we can develop an understanding and learn to tolerate our differences (if we find any).

We hope you agree that we should put this incident behind us, and we look forward to working with you in the future, making sure that any future marches apply for permission well in advance, are well-stewarded, and cause the minimum disruption to other road users. In return, we hope that you will continue to allow us to march from Parnell Street to the GPO and/or Central Bank, possibly including brief sit-downs of no more than 2 minutes in duration. Please feel free to publish this letter in any publication to which you have access, and it will be posted on the internet.

by Paul Kinsella - ATGWU (For the moment!)! Wed May 15, 2002 16:46 paulkinsella53 at yahoo dot com 53 Lorcan Grove, Dublin 9, Eire 087 - 9748511

On a directly related subject I was talking to a Bus Driver on the 27B who I know very well and he told me that one of the ex SIPTU Shop Stewards in Clontarf Bus Garage in Dublin who was one of the SIPTU Rank and File Shop Stewards who was sacked by SIPTU last year and who Picketed Liberty Hall in Protest at their disgraceful sackings (Shades of Mick O'Reilly here) has so far recruited more than 50 Bus Drivers to date to join the new breakaway Independent Workers Union (IWU) and that's in Clontarf Bus Garage alone! This Driver told me that before long there will be a tidal wave of workers in all of the CIE Companies from all categories of Workers, not just Bus Drivers joining the new breakaway Independent Workers Union (IWU).

by Phuq Hedd Wed May 15, 2002 16:58

Is this just a wind-up? I see no outside link, no means of confirmation?

Just a thought.

by E Wed May 15, 2002 17:15

?

by Ray Wed May 15, 2002 17:18

Go back and have a look at the comments after Andrew's report. I think this is legit.

by Phuq Hedd Wed May 15, 2002 17:27

And until there's confirmation of it, it may as well be one. Personally I suspect it of being the work of "Maureen from Barcelona"/neogeo/shamey (although to be fair to "neogeo" he has managed to create a unique personality in shamey).

Don't underestimate the appeal of trolling friends.

Anyway, without extra information this is just provocative.

Now, if _I_ were Globalise Resistance what I'd do is to sit quite for a while after the mis-representation debacle, let all the indymedia.ie "splitters" tire themselves out, and then issue a "I'm sorry we didn't mean that, come and join our front group" statement in .... oh 3, 4 weeks?

by vert-et-noir Wed May 15, 2002 18:29

OK, can we backtrack here for a moment, what the hell happened at liberty hall on may-day? I must have missed it and all references to it in all the excitement over what happened 150 yards away on may-day.

Secondly, what the hell debate about the leadership in GR? Is it not lead by a front man, who is lead by a steering commitee, who are led by national Party figures, who are led by international(UK) party figures, all the way up to Dr. Evil?

by Nora Geraghty - Globalise Resistance Wed May 15, 2002 19:23

One if the main reasons for our descision to publish this letter is that an awful lot of us are heartily sick of being lumped in with the SWP. The incident on Mayday was minor, but it did undermine our credibility in the eyes of the SIPTU leadership since it is clearly representative of SWP thinking. The truth of it is that Des Geraghty can not be held responsible for Mick O'Reily's sacking, he does not run the ATGWU and has no influence over its leadership. Any individual is entitled to express their own views, but this incident was not sanctioned by GR and we wanted to make that clear.
There is no way that SIPTU can be compared to the Gardai Siochana. There is no division within GR about our position on police brutality. The trade unions in other countries have played an important role in the Anti-Capitalist movement and we want to encourage them to do so here.
Des Geraghty has agreed to speak at a GR meeting so that anyone who wants to can voice their concerns in a civilised atmosphere. When we have details of the meeting it will be publicised.
Just to answer the other question, I asked Joe to comment and he said he is sick of all the in-fighting that goes on in the newswire and wants no part of it. Fair enough.

by Phuq Hedd Wed May 15, 2002 19:36

In an effort to see if this really was you posting I tried to open the Globalise Resistance (Ireland) website http://www.globaliseresistance.cjb.net and received a redirect to pop.mircx.net and the error below. Would it be possible to fix that so that Globalise Resistance can state its views clearly on its own website without us wondering if it really is you?

Warning: Access denied for user: '[email protected]' (Using password: YES) in /mnt/host-users/grireland/mainfile.php on line 42

Warning: MySQL Connection Failed: Access denied for user: '[email protected]' (Using password: YES) in /mnt/host-users/grireland/mainfile.php on line 42
Unable to select database

by insurgent Wed May 15, 2002 22:36

'We would like you to know that the behaviour of these members does not reflect the views of Globalise Resistance as a group.'

And to follow your own line of argument likewise this letter does not reflect the views of GR as a whole because it is the actions of yet another clique acting in the name of Globalise Resistence, remember the umbrella part? Is GR not meant to be a coalition? With no democratic structures then how can anybody in GR issue an apology for my behaviour as a member? As regards the 'common goals' of the anti capitalist movemnt and the Trade union bureacracy, you are seriuosly mistaken, the anti part of the ani capitalist movement seeks a negation of the capitalist system, while Geraghty and co ssek only to make a half assed attempt to tame the beast. Youre claim that you seek to build a broad based anti capitalist movement. The inclusion of fat cat reformist like Geraghty neutralises the anti capitalist nature of the movement. I have no problem being in a movemnt with geraghty, but ultimately he does not have the same interests as me. I stand for revolution, and he stands for all the worst elements of trickle down effect regononmics which is after all the basis of social partnership agreemnents. Once again, untill there is a democratic structure in GR , no one should be issuing ridiculous apoligies like this..

by Sarah K. Thu May 16, 2002 00:45

I'm told by someone who was at the meeting that Joe read out the letter to Des Geraghty, people were asked if they had any objections, and none were raised

Quite right too. Heckling is a great way to let off steam, but immature and useless politically --it alienates at least as many people as it satisfies and achieves exactly nothing.

Des Geraghty has a lot of support from SIPTU members who are ordinary workers. They elected him by 51% on the first count, the first time any official in that union did that well. Agree with him or disagree with him, but show enough respect for fellow workers not to jeer like schoolkids at their democratic choice.

Maybe GR should be commended for making a mature gesture. Doesn't it prove it is not an SWP front?

by Mike Carrol Thu May 16, 2002 00:57

GR has clearly been infiltrated by arse-licking supporters of union bureaucrats, and now that we know, there is no excuse for continuing to support them: unless, we are family members, blood being thicker that ideology.

by Ray Thu May 16, 2002 10:24

- Des Geraghty has a lot of support from SIPTU members who are ordinary workers. They elected him by 51% on the first count, the first time any official in that union did that well. Agree with him or disagree with him, but show enough respect for fellow workers not to jeer like schoolkids at their democratic choice. -

By the same logic we should refrain from jeering Bertie, Bush, Blair, Sharon... all democratically elected. We should also respect the feelings of the 20% of people who voted for Le Pen, the hundreds who voted for the BNP, the many who support Arafat or Bin Laden... how many more examples do you want?

Put down the custard pie!
Write a polite letter instead!

by E Thu May 16, 2002 10:27

Whatever about Blair/Ahern and Sharon, certainly you can't use "democratically elected" with Bush, elected though one of the greatest electoral frauds seen.

by Ray Thu May 16, 2002 11:00

Remember, you're talking to some one who thinks 'democratically elected' is already something of an oxymoron...

by shane Thu May 16, 2002 13:14

this letter must be some sort of sick joke, or maybe once any organisation begins to shine in the perverting rays of public opinion, it feels it must moderate some of its views, and appeal to the stronger, straight-laced, and status-quo prolonging groups.
SHAME ON GR....i thought this was an organisation prepared to stand up to the likes of Gerahgty, Ruari Quinn, SIPTU, IMPACT, and all the other members of the front for phoney leftism.

by Jane Thu May 16, 2002 13:58

This from Schnews might be interesting to anyone trying to make sense of the SWP/GR

by Simon - SWP Thu May 16, 2002 14:55

I was at the May Day march, and the only thing that made it in any way interesting, was the 150 or people who had come along to a Globalise Resistance rally against Le Pen and then marched up to join the Trade Union march.

At the rally at Liberty hall, I heckled Geraghty, as did many others. His response was to accuse the people heckling of using fascist tactics. He was been heckled, members of the Socialist Workers Party and the non-aligned, not just for having tied workers to social partnership, or for having made solidarity a dirty word in the trade union movement but rather for the fact that Dublin Trades Council were asked by some senior trade union figures to withdraw a invitation to Mick O’Reilly to speak at the rally on the day that O’Reilly spoke.

I stand over the SWP record in the unions in general and in SIPTU in particular. We stood a candidate in union elections against Des Geraghty, we campaigned against social partnership both in the unions and beyond. Our members have been at the forefront of the campaign to defend Mick O’Reilly.

So do I have problem with GR sending a letter to SIPTU?
No.
Why not?
Because Globalise Resistance is broader than the SWP. (I know that is a tricky concept to grasp for some of the site’s keener posters.) So the SWP opinion of Des Geraghty and the rest of the union bureaucracy isn’t shared by all those in Globalise Resistance. This is only surprising, if you have convinced yourself they were one in the same thing. The letter from GR, makes the point that GR, didn’t organise the heckling, which is true. One of the false allegations aimed at GR was that it supposedly claimed for itself things it didn’t organise – and here is another example of GR pointing out it didn’t organise something. Yet the same people are brushing off their mock outrage all over again.

It is funny in the last week how GR is nothing but the SWP, followed by GR shouldn’t have called the protest against police violence at Pearse Street because we would all be shot on sight. Then the problem was that the protest wasn’t militant enough. Then that it had stewards… Now apparently, the evil SWP has betrayed itself by members of GR writing to Des Geraghty.

The problem with letter for the some of the above pythonesque commentators, is that it screws the grand evil Lenninists taking over the movement conspiracy theories – hence their vitriol and irrelevance.

by simon -swp Thu May 16, 2002 15:42

"on the day that O'Reilly was sackeed"

not the "day O'Reilly spoke."

by Ray Thu May 16, 2002 15:46

Simon, GR are being criticised in this thread because they wrote such an appalling letter. It has nothing to do with whether or not they're a front group, its a terrible position to take. (I could also criticise the fact that none of the SWP members present raised any objections to the letter, let alone voted against sending it.)

You say GR is falsely accused of claiming for itself things it didn't organise. Does that mean that Joe Carolan didn't phone dozens of journalists trying to get airtime for GR by claiming it (helped/) organise RTS?

And finally, you make the mistake of assuming that everyone that disagrees with you is part of some Grand Unified Conspiracy that agrees on everything. Most people criticised GR's calling of the Thursday protest on the grounds that it should have been called by, or after consultation with, RTS and/or the people attacked by Gardai. Some people also criticised the demonstration because they thought there was a chance that demonstrators would attack the gardai, and lose the moral high ground. Others (myself included) criticise it because it sought permission fro the gardai, and because of the people invited to speak.

by Cynic Thu May 16, 2002 15:47

Anyone else reckon this is all a little manufactured?

by Ray Thu May 16, 2002 15:55

You mean by Globalise Resistance, who posted the letter that started this thread?

by r.m. Thu May 16, 2002 16:02

So the SWP believes that staging this kind of farce will convice people that GR is not a front...oh dear...come on...it's just silly.
And Joe Carolan loves to be interviewed by any and all Irish corporate media but wouldn't account for his action on indymedia.

by Simon - swp Thu May 16, 2002 16:22

So this whole thread is a plot by the SWP...

That'll teach me.

But in another folorn attempt:
"You say GR is falsely accused of claiming for itself things it didn't organise. Does that mean that Joe Carolan didn't phone dozens of journalists trying to get airtime for GR by claiming it (helped/) organise RTS?"

Yep that's what I'm saying.

by Andrew Thu May 16, 2002 16:27

This letter and discussion are very odd. The string of events seems to go like this

1. May Day march - Des G. is heckled by the SWP/GR section of the march.
2. SWP decide that GR should not have done this so their organiser who runs GR turns up to the GR meeting with the letter apologising for the actions of some of its members but write "most of those involved were not GR members".
3. Simon posts that this shows GR and the SWP are not "one in the same thing".

Anyone else understand how this works?

In any case the accusation is that GR is controlled by the SWP and not that every GR member is a SWP member ('one and the same thing'). For this letter affair to argue differently then step 2 above would have to read 'non SWP member turns up with letter, SWP argue against it but lose vote, letter published and all stroll off arm in arm into the sunset'.

Or have I missed something?

by Ray Thu May 16, 2002 16:54

http://www.indymedia.ie/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi?id=3824&start=20

I know where I'm putting my money.

by Amused Thu May 16, 2002 17:08

Let me get this straight: SWP members heckling Des as SWP members, but then apologise as GR members!? This is far better than Monthy Pyton.

by Phuq Hedd Thu May 16, 2002 20:24

So, the Globalise Resistance website is still not fixed. Is there some reason for that? If the GR bosses like Joe and Nora are as dodgy as they seem then that gives them some plausible deniability to regular members:

"Oh, the indymedia.ie newswire postings? Someone told you that Nora had been issuing all sorts of statements on your behalf that you'd never agreed to? Sure that was just the newswire, you can't believe what you read there, it's just lots of people `bickering'. Sure there was never an official statement from GR, wasn't the website down? Did you see it on the website now? We were too busy waiting for instructions from London to fix it at the time so how could it have been official?"

I can't believe that such a crawling letter was written to Des Geraghty. I expect to see GR apologising to FF for the disruption to traffic flow at RTS next. Nora will invite whoever the next Minister for Transport is to address RTS:

"I'm terribly sorry minister, this was supposed to be a forum where we could have a civilised debate and you could tell us some more lies that contradict your actions over the last 5 years. I really am sorry, those people dancing and telling you to feck off are not representative of RTS. Lets schedule a photo opportunity somewhere quiet and then we'll both have something nice for our C.V.s"

by Tom Thu May 16, 2002 20:52

Can we have some real debate about how to get rid of capitalism. If you think Gr is the way then great. If you're with the SWP then fine, if you're an anarchist than go for it. The point is though to change the world. This site is fast becoming a sectarian swamp with little/no analysis. Why would anyone want to with the movement if its full of Judean Popular Front shiteheads.
More importantly is the vote for the far right in Holland, the state of the planet in terms of environment, war on terrorism, the millions who die of poverty, etc etc
Lets see if we can excite new people about issues instead.

PS Is PH aka Larry Cain

by Phuq Hedd Thu May 16, 2002 21:55

Once again the Trotskyist insistence that debate is "sectarian"! We are talking about the best way to get rid of Capitalism. This time around it is clear to everyone that we don't want to repeat the mistake of letting authoritarians take over from within.

This whole situation is created by Globalise Resistance. They are attempting to stifle and control the large numbers of people that want an alternative.

We've seen the disastrous results of "left-wing" organisations like the SWP in terms of protest in Britain and the continent and want to make sure they don't pull the same shite here. (Wasn't that Jospin fecker a Trotskyist?).

Now Tom, after me: Debate == GOOD!

by Rose Fri May 17, 2002 08:59

We are trying to get rid of capitalism. The difference from Monty Python (this has been repeated many times, but some people seem to find facing reality a bit hard) is that there there are 2 identical organizations with almost identical names and ideologies.
Whether you like it or not, here people are totally opposed to the SWP/GR, don't want any such organization, and see them as part of the problem, not of the solution.
You can say whatever you want about this line of thought, but it's certainly not sectarian.

by karl Fri May 17, 2002 16:47

It's so sad to see Indymedia's 'news' wire getting loaded up with this crap.

I'm sorry Rose but it is sectarian. Why? because the criticism from the ultra-lefts (although not true) of GR is 1. It is a united front and 2. It takes no line on being in favour of direct action to get rid of Capitalism, although it has and does use direct action as a tactic.

Without the masses there is no revolution, the revolution is not about finding an alternative lifestyle etc...you have to show people that in practice revolutionary ideas work as opposed to reformist ones, you can't do that if you treat reformists (who will continue to make up the majority of society, till the crisis is deep enoug) like pieces of shit.

That is why it is sectarian. Because you are putting abstract principles before buidling the movement.

It is only by working with people that you can enter into dialogue and CHANGE their minds.

It's funny that many anarchists who claim to be in favour of freedom and only freedom can not free their thinking a little to allow other voices.

noel

by Andrew Fri May 17, 2002 16:57

yet again we see this odd Leninist notion that refusing to agree with them is some form of censorship. Noel it is the fact that we don't agree that shows we have already 'freed our thinking'. With the exception of Simon and Nora none of the GR posters have attempted to defend GR. Instead all have demanded silence as the price for 'unity'. You don't get how this movement was actually built at all, do you?

by Andreu - Saragoza Social Forum Sat May 18, 2002 08:56

Karl:

...you have to show people that in practice revolutionary ideas work

You have to show people, do you? Why? Who has happointed you as our teacher? Who has asked you to teach us what to do?
We don't want to show people, we are the people.
That's the difference between you and us.
A lot of people here in Spain read this newswire and they love it. It's the liveliest and funniest European indymedia newswire. You can't beat the Irish at that. Keep it up lads.

by anarcho Sat May 18, 2002 20:24

"I'm sorry Rose but it is sectarian. Why? because
the criticism from the ultra-lefts (although not true) of GR is 1. It is a united front and 2. It
takes no line on being in favour of direct action
to get rid of Capitalism, although it has and
does use direct action as a tactic."

Actually, GR is not even opposed to Capitalism.
Its statement of intent just talks about "corporate
power" and being against globalisation. It does not
use the expression "anti-capitalist" or "get rid
of capitalism."

If it is a "united front" then its not an anti-capitalist one, far from it as this thread
shows.

And its nice to be called "ultra-lefts" -- what
next, "an infantile disorder"?

"Without the masses there is no revolution,"

According to Trotsky, "A revolution is 'made'
directly by a *minority.*" The role of the
"masses" (the majority) was, according to him,
that of "more or less support[ing]" this minority
("or at least friendly neutrality" towards it).
He expresses this position in his discussion on
Kronstadt, which shows what we can expect when
the masses reject the "minority" which makes "the
revolution." Perhaps this why, in the same year,
he was talking about the "objective necessity" of
party dictatorship? As he said two years latter:

"the very same masses are at different times inspired by different moods and objectives.
It is just for this reason that a centralised
organisation of the vanguard is indispensable. Only a party, wielding the authority it has
won, is capable of overcoming the vacillation
of the masses themselves."

but, then again, maybe Trotsky did not know anything
about Leninism or Trotskyism?

"the revolution is not about finding an alternative lifestyle etc.."

who said it was? Talk about strawmen arguments.

What is interesting is that the letter attacking
the hecklers is obviously sectarian... But this
can be explained. When the SWP attack someone its
debate. When others discuss SWP ideas then it is
"sectarian". Once you understand that, it all makes
sense!