Israels Road Block to peace

by Maubere Wed May 14, 2003 14:19

Last year Saudi Arabia offered a peace deal to Israel, full regognition and peace if Isreal withdrew to the 1967 borders
Israel of couse regected the offer out of hand, without even attempting to negotiate,
if they gave up the West Bank then how would they be able to control the water supply in the region???
as for the argument "Israel has ben attacked three times since 1948", its strange they never talk about Isreal attacking Eygpt in 1956 with the Brits and French

by pat c Wed May 14, 2003 14:37

But any Jew who has no connection with Israel has an automatic right to "return" to Israel.

by Ali H. Wed May 14, 2003 14:39

and it's not a boast!

by iosaf Wed May 14, 2003 14:42

just as Josef confused the readers, and many thought Josef was Iosaf, and he/she never was, now many will think AliH is AviH.
great.
cyber solutions for a cyber world.
check http://www.nyc.indymedia.org
newswire homepage for lots of news from the Israeli-Palestine War, and updates from the International Peace Volunteer movements there.
:-)

by Sean Wed May 14, 2003 18:21

Qatar could consider peace pact with Israel
by Sean Wed, May 14 2003, 4:55pm

Qatar FM meets Israeli counterpart in Paris
[Post and comment oved by R Isible to become comment] - Qatar's foreign minister said his country, a political maverick among Gulf Arab states, may consider signing a peace treaty with Israel if it suited its interests. Sheikh Hamad bin Jassim bin Jabr al-Thani's comments are rare for a senior official in a region which rules out any normal ties with Israel before it withdraws from Arab land occupied since the 1967 Middle East War.

'If we think it will serve our purpose and our country, we can study this (peace treaty),' Sheikh Hamad told CNN. But he said that Qatar, which does not share a border with the Jewish state, was satisfied for now with its low-level trade ties with Israel, which have angered many Arab countries.

Qatar set up trade ties with Israel after a Arab-Israeli peace conference in 1991.

But a month after the Palestinian uprising erupted in September 2000, Doha shut the Israeli representative office in Doha to avoid the collapse of an Islamic summit it was hosting that year after several Arab and Muslim countries threatened to boycott the meeting.

'There is a relation with the Israelis and they have their trade office in Doha. The relation is minimal but there is a relation,' he said, adding that Doha continued to discuss ways of ending the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with concerned parties.

Egypt and Jordan are the only two Arab states that have signed peace treaties with Israel. Qatar has irked its conservative neighbours by hosting the outspoken Al-Jazeera television which often hosts Arab opposition figures.

add your comments
COMMENTS

Yes, Indeed
by Avi H. Wed, May 14 2003, 5:10pm

Qatar is unusual among Arab states in that it often can see Jews and Israelis as human beings and not sub-human, and therefore worthy of normal relations. Further, Qatar has one or two intellectuals, whose insight and liberalism are beacons of light in a truly benighted Arab world. Take for example, Sheikh 'Abd Al-Hamid Al-Ansari, who is dean of the Faculty of Shar'iah (Islamic Law) at Qatar University. He very recently wrote an article about the Arab media treatment of the Iraq war that is exceptionally incisive, in my view:

http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD50303

related link: www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD50303

by Avi H. Wed May 14, 2003 18:37

Everyone knows or should know that the Palestinians' 'right of return' is a straight plagiarism of that Jews to the Jewish state. It is also totally disingenuous in that it seeks to destroy the Jewish state by swamping it with millions of Arabs. This is why it is not an honest negotiating position and hell will freeze over before any Israeli government ever accepts it. To require otherwise is to ask Israel to agree to its own destruction, which is hardly reasonable.

by Ali H. Wed May 14, 2003 18:43

Maybe what they really want is money. After all they've seen how the ADL and Co. in the US were able to rip off the Swiss Banks for a few Billion $ by lying about the extent of holocaust victims money being held by by them. I'd be happy to see some of that money go to the Palestinians as reparations for half a decades worth of persecution. That's what you're really worried about isn't it Avi?

by Avi H. Wed May 14, 2003 20:00

The previous post is an anti-Semitic slander on holocaust victims.

by the exterminating angel Thu May 15, 2003 00:46

You were quite happy to poke fun at Bobby Sands and his dietary habits ...
Seems like you can dish it out but you can't take it ...

by Avi H Thu May 15, 2003 02:03

The post is a form of holocaust denial.

by Lance Thu May 15, 2003 07:48

Unlike Jewish scholars like Prof. Norman Finklestien, historian- Hunter College NYC usa(whose parents were holocaust survivors)who dispute Dogma facts and figures about the Nazi destruction of Jews - there are Jews like 'Avi', who run out the holocaustdenial card and the antisemitism card in every case where they don't have a reasonable rebuttal to facts that invalidate Israeli Policy or 'unavoidable' Israeli atrocities.

1.To debate or question the Details of a commonly believed historical account is not to 'deny' it.

2.And comments that are not addressed to the 'holocaust' or 'all Jews' are not 'denials'.

Holocaust circus-barker propagandists like 'Avi' who have a have a very slender intellectuality: rely on these 'holocaust denial!' and 'antisemitism!' Slogan cards to get sympathy and support - regardless of whether these slogans could by any stretch apply to many cases (for which he - and those Israel chauvinist, jingoists have no truthful rational reply.)

And for further consideration - the only wartime population destruction endured by a people that 'Avi' ever comments on is the one that concerns his personal prejudicial interest. He doesn't comment on the destruction of the people of Nanking by the Japanese where things even more painful and agonizing than were done to the Jews by the Nazis, were done to a whole city racial population by another race.

or give us political 'cards' on Bosnians detroyed by Serbs, or Hutus by Tutsis(and the reverse) or Timorese by Indonesians, or Armenians by Turks. It's his people alone that concern him. And any comment against the genocidal 'cleansing' of the Palestinians out of their OWN homeland that was invaded and occupied by Israel ....brings out 'Avi' waiving his 'anti-semitic' card like an emergency flare. Remember the Palestinians never even had an army that Israel could attack or conquer - all they had was LAND that Israel needed a war-pretext to steal. Israel could at any time GET OUT of Palestine and have peace. But Israel doesn't want peace - Israel wants to steal Palestine.

It would be easy to outdo Nazi caused holocaust accounts, atrocity for atrocity by comparison with Nanking. Yet no one pulls out the 'Nanking Card' when attacking those who support Japanese policy. Of course the Japanese don't have a preponderant control of Western media. see www.rense.com for a Factual company by company list of who owns and edits Western Media, compiled by I. Shamir. Are facts and statistics 'antisemitic' - Avi?

Only when they discredit Israeli intentions - right?

by Ali H. Thu May 15, 2003 10:01

How the Holocaust Industry Stole the Swiss Monies

Postscript to Foreign Translations

In chapter three of this book I documented the Holocaust industry's "double shakedown" of European countries as well as Jewish survivors of the Nazi genocide. Recent developments confirm this analysis. Indeed, for confirmation of my argument, one need merely place documents readily available in the public domain under critical and close scrutiny.

In late August 2000 the World Jewish Congress (WJC) announced that it stood to amass fully $9 billion in Holocaust compensation monies. (1) They were extracted in the name of "needy Holocaust victims" but the WJC now maintained that the monies belonged to the "Jewish people as a whole" (WJC executive director, Elan Steinberg). Conveniently, the WJC is the self-anointed representative of the "Jewish people as a whole." Meanwhile, a black-tie Holocaust reparations banquet sponsored by WJC president Edgar Bronfman at New York's Pierre Hotel celebrated the creation of a "Foundation of the Jewish People" to subsidize Jewish organizations and "Holocaust education." (One Jewish critic of the "Holocaust-themed dinner" conjured this scenario: "Mass murder. Horrible plunder. Slave Labor. Let's eat.") The Foundation's endowment would come from "residual" Holocaust compensation monies amounting to "probably billions of dollars" (Steinberg). How the WJC already knew that "probably billions" would be left over when none of the compensation monies had yet been distributed to Holocaust victims was anyone's guess. Indeed, it was not yet even known how many would qualify. Or, did the Holocaust industry extract compensation monies in the name of "needy Holocaust victims" knowing all along that "probably billions" would be left over? The Holocaust industry bitterly complained that the German and Swiss settlements allotted only meager sums for survivors. It is unclear why the "probably billions" couldn't be used to supplement these allocations.

Predictably, Holocaust survivors reacted with rage. (None was present at the Foundation's creation.) "Who authorized these organizations to decide," a survivor newsletter angrily editorialized, "that the `leftovers' (in the billions), obtained in the name of Shoah victims, should be used for their pet projects instead of helping ALL holocaust survivors with their mounting health-care expenses?" Confronted with this barrage of negative publicity, the WJC did an abrupt about-face. The $9 billion figure was "a bit misleading," Steinberg subsequently protested. He also claimed that the Foundation had "no cash and no plan for allocating funds," and the purpose of the Holocaust banquet was not to celebrate the Foundation's endowment from Holocaust compensation monies but rather to raise funds for it. Elderly Jewish survivors, not consulted in advance of, let alone invited to, the "star-studded gala" at the Pierre Hotel, picketed outside.

Among those honored inside the Pierre was President Clinton, who movingly recalled that the United States stood in the forefront of "facing up to an ugly past": "I have been to Native American reservations and acknowledged that the treaties we signed were neither fair nor honorably kept in many cases. I went to Africa...and acknowledged the responsibility of the United States in buying people into slavery. This is a hard business, struggling to find our core of humanity." Notably absent in all these instances of "hard business" were reparations in hard currency. (2)

On 11 September 2000 the "Special Master's Proposed Plan of Allocation and Distribution of Settlement Proceeds" from the Swiss banks litigation was finally released (hereafter: Gribetz Plan). (3) Publication of the Plan - more than two years in the making - was timed not for the "needy Holocaust victims dying everyday" but the Holocaust gala that same night. Burt Neuborne, lead counsel for the Holocaust industry in the Swiss banks affair and "the most vocal supporter of the distribution plan" (New York Times), praised the document as "meticulously researched ... painstaking and sensitive." (4) Indeed, it seemed to belie pervasive fears that the monies would be misappropriated by Jewish organizations. The Forward typically reported that "the distribution plan...proposes that more than 90% of the Swiss monies be paid directly to survivors and their heirs." Protesting that "the World Jewish Congress has never asked for a penny, will never take a penny and does not accept restitution funds," Elan Steinberg piously acclaimed the Gribetz Plan as an "extraordinarily intelligent and compassionate document." (5) Intelligent it surely was, but hardly compassionate. For hidden in the details of the Gribetz Plan is the devilish reality that probably but a small fraction of the Swiss monies will be paid directly to Holocaust survivors and their heirs. Before considering this, however, it bears notice that the Plan conclusively, if unwittingly, demonstrates that the Holocaust industry blackmailed Switzerland. (6)

Readers will recall that in May 1996 the Swiss banks formally consented to a comprehensive, external audit - "the most extensive audit in history" (Judge Korman) - in order to settle all outstanding claims by Holocaust survivors and their heirs. (7) Before the audit committee (chaired by Paul Volcker), even had an opportunity to meet, however, the Holocaust industry pressed for a financial settlement. Two pretexts were adduced to preempt the Volcker Committee: 1. the Committee couldn't be trusted, 2. needy Holocaust victims couldn't wait for the Committee's findings. The Gribetz Plan demolishes both pretexts.

In June 1997, Burt Neuborne submitted a "Memorandum of Law" justifying preemption of the Volcker Committee. Against all evidence and with remarkable effrontery, Neuborne dismissed the Committee as a Swiss initiative to deflect criticism into a "private mediation effort that is sponsored, paid for and designed by the defendants." (8) It bears notice that Neuborne even held against the Swiss bankers that they footed the $500 million bill for the unprecedented audit imposed on them. In August 1998 the Holocaust industry successfully forced a non-recoupable $1.25 billion settlement on the Swiss before the Volcker Committee completed its work. (9) Although the pretext for this settlement was that the Volcker Committee couldn't be trusted, the Gribetz Plan heaps praise on the Committee and emphasizes that the Committee's findings and mechanism for processing claims ("Claims Resolution Tribunal" - "CRT") were and continue to be of "vital significance" in distributing the Swiss monies. (10) The Holocaust industry's enthusiastic reliance on the Committee for distributing the Swiss monies confutes its main pretext for preempting the Committee with a non-recoupable settlement.

In their settlement with the Holocaust industry, the Swiss were compelled not only to pay for Holocaust-era dormant Jewish accounts, but also to "disgorge the profits" they "knowingly" reaped from the Jewish assets looted, and Jewish slave labor exploited, by the Nazis. (11) The Gribetz Plan reveals the flimsiness of these charges as well. It admits that "very few if any" direct links - let alone direct profitable links or knowingly profitable links - could be established between the Swiss, on the one hand, and looted Jewish assets and Jewish slave labor, on the other. Indeed, the Plan makes clear that the entire indictment in these classes was built on what was "likely" or "presumed" or "potentially" to be the case. (12) Finally, Switzerland was compelled to provide restitution to Jews fleeing Nazism who were denied refuge. The Gribetz Plan explicitly concedes - if only in a footnote - the "questionable legal validity" of this claim. (13) Despite all these admissions, however, the Plan still approvingly quotes that "in a perfectly just world, plaintiffs should have received a far greater sum" than the $1.25 billion extracted from the Swiss. (14)

Apart from the Volcker Committee's alleged partisanship, the Holocaust industry gestured to the mortality of Holocaust survivors to force a non-recoupable settlement on the Swiss. Time was supposedly of the essence because "needy Holocaust victims" had only a short time left to live. With the money in hand, however, the Holocaust industry has suddenly discovered that "needy Holocaust victims" aren't dying so rapidly. Citing a study commissioned by the Jewish Claims Conference, the Gribetz plan reports that "the population of Nazi victims is declining more slowly than previously believed." Indeed, the Plan purports that "a fairly substantial number of Jewish Nazi victims may live for at least another 20 years and that 30-35 years from now" - that is, some ninety years after the end of World War II - "tens of thousands of Jewish Nazi victims are likely to be alive." (15) Given the Holocaust industry's track record, it should surprise no one if this revelation is eventually adduced to press yet new compensation demands on Europe. In the meantime it is already being used to slow the allocation of compensation monies. Thus the Gribetz Plan recommends that the monies be allocated in small increments over time because "building expectations among needy survivors, only to remove the funding and thus the assistance, would be a great disservice." (16)

During the Swiss banks affair, the Holocaust industry maintained that the average age of a survivor was 73 in Israel and 80 in the rest of the world. Life expectancy in the three countries where most Holocaust survivors currently reside ranges from 60 (former Soviet Union) to 77 (the United States and Israel). (17) One might be excused for wondering how it is possible for "tens of thousands" of Holocaust survivors to be alive 35 years from now. A partial answer is that the Holocaust industry has yet again revised the definition of a Holocaust survivor. "One of the reasons for this relatively slower decline in the size of the population," the above-mentioned Claims Conference study reports, "is the finding that, using the broad definition, there are many more relatively younger Nazi victims than previously believed." (emphasis added) (18) Indeed, in a Weimar-like inflation, the Gribetz Plan puts the number of living Holocaust survivors at nearly a million - a four-fold increase from the already extraordinary figure of 250,000 Holocaust survivors reported during the Swiss shakedown. (19)

To manage this actuarial and demographic feat, the Gribetz Plan now deems every Russian Jew who survived World War II to be a Holocaust survivor. (20) Thus, Russian Jews who fled in advance of the Nazis or served in the Red Army now qualify as Holocaust survivors because they faced torture and death if captured. (21) Even accepting for argument's sake this truly novel definition of Holocaust survivor, it is unclear why Soviet functionaries who fled in advance of the Nazis or non-Jewish conscripts in the Red Army don't also qualify as Holocaust survivors. They too faced torture and death if captured. Indeed, the Plan reports that a Jewish-American serviceman captured by the Nazis was interned in a concentration camp. (22) Shouldn't every Jewish-American G.I. from World War II count as a Holocaust survivor? Possibilities abound. Defending the Gribetz Plan mortality projections for Holocaust survivors, a senior historian for the Holocaust wing of the British Imperial War Museum explained that in a "still broader sense...second and even third generation can be considered" Holocaust victims because "they may suffer from psychiatric disturbances." (23) It's only a matter of time before the Holocaust industry restores Wilkomirski to grace as a Holocaust survivor since - to quote Yad Vashem Director Israel Gutman - his "pain is authentic."

For the Holocaust industry, this redefinition and upward revision of the figure for Holocaust survivors serves multiple purposes. Not only does it justify the shakedown of European countries, but it justifies the shakedown of actual Holocaust victims as well. For years these Holocaust victims have begged the Claims Conference to allocate compensation monies for a health insurance program. Noting this "thoughtful" proposal in a footnote, the Gribetz Plan laments that the Swiss settlement "would be insufficient" to provide medical insurance for "well over 800,000" Holocaust survivors. (24)

***

Apart from a trivial sum, the Gribetz Plan earmarks the Swiss monies only for Jewish victims of the Nazi holocaust. The settlement technically covered every "Victim or Target of Nazi Persecution." In fact, this seemingly inclusive, "politically correct" designation is a linguistic subterfuge to exclude most non-Jewish victims. It arbitrarily defines "Victim or Target of Nazi Persecution" to include only Jews, Gypsies, Jehovah's Witnesses, homosexuals and the disabled or handicapped. For reasons never explained, other political (e.g., Communists and Socialists) and ethnic (e.g., Poles and Belorussians) persecutees are left out. These are numerically the larger victim groups; except for Jews, the groups designated "Victim or Target of Nazi Persecution" in the Gribetz Plan are numerically much less significant. The practical upshot is that almost all the compensation monies will go to Jews. Thus, the Plan covers 170,000 former Jewish slave-laborers; of fully 1,000,000 non-Jewish former slave laborers, however, only 30,000 of these are deemed to qualify as a "victim or target of Nazi persecution." Likewise, the Plan allocates $90 million for Jewish victims of Nazi plunder but only $10 million for non-Jewish victims. This division is partly justified on the ground that prior compensation agreements used such a ratio. Yet the Plan suggests that non-Jewish victims received a disproportionately smaller share of compensation monies in the past. Shouldn't a just allocation plan redress, not perpetuate, past inequities? (25)

The Gribetz Plan sets aside fully $800 million of the $1.25 billion Swiss settlement to cover valid claims on Holocaust-era dormant accounts. The Plan's text, annexes and charts run to many hundreds of pages with well over a thousand footnotes. The singular oddity of the Plan is that it makes no attempt to credibly justify this - the crucial - allocation. It merely states that, "Based upon his analysis of the Volcker Report and the Final Approval Order, and upon consultation with representatives of the Volcker Committee, the Special Master estimates that the value of all bank accounts that will be repaid is within the range of $800 million." (26) In fact, this estimate appears wildly inflated. The actual sum paid out on dormant accounts will probably not come to more than a tiny fraction of the $800 million. (27) The "residual" monies - that is, what remains of the $800 million after all legitimate claims have been processed - are supposed to be distributed either directly to Holocaust survivors or to Jewish organizations engaged in Holocaust-related activities. (28) In fact, the residual monies will almost certainly go to Jewish organizations, not only because the Holocaust industry will have the final say, but because they won't be distributed until many years from now, when few actual Holocaust survivors will be alive. (29)

Besides the $800 million for Holocaust-era accounts, the Gribetz Plan allocates some $400 million mainly for the "looted assets," "slave labor," and "refugees" classes. The Plan enters the crucial caveat, however, that none of these monies will be released until "all appeals in this litigation have been exhausted." Conceding that the "proposed payments may not commence for some time," the Plan cites a crucial precedent in which the appeals process lasted three and a half years. (30) For elderly Holocaust survivors this is a no-win and for the Holocaust industry a no-lose situation. Many Holocaust survivors, appalled by the Gribetz Plan, will undoubtedly want to appeal, but doing so means that few will be around to benefit even if an appeal is sustained. The Holocaust industry, already the main beneficiary of the Gribetz Plan, can only gain from an appeals process in which more monies will by default flow into its coffers as survivors die out.

Once the appeals process is completed, the Gribetz Plan provides for these allocations of the $400 million:
1. In the "looted assets" class, $90 million is earmarked not for direct payments to Holocaust survivors but for Jewish organizations servicing Holocaust communities "broadly defined." The largest allocation will go to the Claims Conference, which the Gribetz Plan repeatedly acclaims for its "unmatched expertise in serving the needs of Nazi victims. (31) The Plan sets aside $10 million for a "Victim List Foundation, the objective of which is to compile and make widely accessible, for research and remembrance, the names of all Victims or Targets of Nazi Persecution." It recommends that the Foundation start from the "irreplaceable data contained in the Initial Questionnaires" for Holocaust victims. A typical response in this "irreplaceable data" is that fully one of every six Jewish victims (71,000/430,000) claimed title to a Swiss bank account before World War II. Did one in six also own a Mercedes and Swiss chalet? (32)
2. In the "slave labor" class, each of 170,000 Jewish former slave laborers supposedly still alive will receive a token payment in two installments: $500 after the appeals process is completed, and "up to" an additional $500 after all claims on dormant accounts are processed. (33) In fact, the 170,000 figure is grossly inflated, and it is unlikely that many of the Jewish former slave laborers really still alive will yet be around to collect the first, let alone the second, token payment. Applications will be processed by the Claims Conference, which - as the main beneficiary of residual compensation monies - will profit from every rejection.
3. In the "refugee" class, legitimate claimants will receive payments ranging from $250-$2500 in the same two installments as the "slave labor" class. (34) Based on the "irreplaceable data contained in the Initial Questionnaire," some 17,000 Jews have claimed membership in this class. It is likely that only a small fraction of these 17,000 will demonstrate a valid claim (the Conference processes applications), and that even fewer will still be around to collect the payments.

A close analysis of the Gribetz Plan thus confirms the main arguments in chapter 3 of this book. It demonstrates that the pretexts invoked by the Holocaust industry to force a non-recoupable settlement on the Swiss banks were false, and that few actual survivors of the Nazi holocaust will directly - or, for that matter, indirectly - benefit from the Swiss monies. A comparable analysis of other Holocaust industry settlements would presumably yield comparable results. Indeed, buried in the details of the Gribetz Plan is a nest egg for the Holocaust industry. Most of the Swiss monies probably won't be distributed until after all but a handful of survivors are dead. With the survivors gone, the monies will pour into the coffers of Jewish organizations. Small wonder that the Holocaust industry was unanimous in its praise of the Gribetz Plan.

Norman G. Finkelstein
June 2001

Notes

1. For this and the next paragraph, see Joan Gralla, "Holocaust Foundation Set for Restitution Funds," in Reuters (22 August 2000), Michael J. Jordan, "Spending Restitution Money Pits Survivors Against Groups," in Jewish Telegraphic Agency (29 August 2000), NAHOS (The Newsletter of the National Association of Jewish Child Holocaust Survivors) (1 September 2000, 6 October 2000, and 6 November 2000), Marilyn Henry, "Proposed `Foundation for Jewish People' Has No Cash," in Jerusalem Post (8 September 2000), Joan Gralla, "Battle Brews Over Holocaust Compensation," in Reuters (11 September 2000), Shlomo Shamir, "Government to Set Up New Fund for Holocaust Payments," in Haaretz (12 September 2000), Yair Sheleg, "Burg Honored at Controversial NY Dinner," in Haaretz (12 September 2000), E.J. Kessler, "Hillary the Holocaust Heroine?" in New York Post (12 September 2000), Melissa Radler, "Survivors Get Most of Cash in Shoah Fund," in Forward (17 September 2000), "The WJC Defends Event Panned by Commentary," in Jewish Post (20 September 2000).

2. "Remarks by The President During Bronfman Gala," Office of The Press Secretary, The White House . Distributed by the Office of International Information Programs, US Department of State (http://usinfo.state.gov).

3. The plan was formulated by Judah Gribetz, past president of the Jewish Community Relations Council of New York, and currently member of the board of New York's Museum of Jewish Heritage - A Living Memorial to the Holocaust. He was appointed "Special Master" by Judge Edward Korman of New York's Eastern District Court, who presided over the class-action litigation in the Swiss case. The full plan is posted on http://www.Swissbankclaims.com. On 22 November 2000 Judge Korman issued a "memorandum and order" that "adopt[s] the Proposed Plan in its entirety." (In re Holocaust Victim Assets Litigation (United States District Court for Eastern District of New York: 22 November 2000), p. 7))

4. Alan Feuer, "Bitter Fight Is Reignited On Splitting Of Reparations" (New York Times, 21 November 2000). "Statement of Burt Neuborne" appended to Gribetz Plan. Judge Korman's "memorandum and order" (see note 3 above) points up the crucial role of Neuborne in deflecting criticism of the Plan (pp. 4, 6). As lead counsel in the Swiss litigation, Neuborne was credited with contriving the "legal theories" used by the Holocaust industry.

5. Radler, "Survivors Get Most of Cash in Shoah Fund."

6. Significantly, Raul Hilberg, the world's leading authority on the Nazi holocaust, has explicitly charged that the World Jewish Congress blackmailed the Swiss: "It was the first time in history that Jews made use of a weapon that can only be described as blackmail." In a declaration supporting the motion to approve the Swiss settlement, Burt Neuborne, clearly worried by the blackmail allegation ("certain persons may be tempted to mischaracterize legitimate settlement payments as a form of blackmail"), called on Judge Korman to repudiate it, which the Judge dutifully did. ("Holocaust Expert Says Swiss Banks Are Paying Too Much," in Deutsche Presse-Agentur, 28 January 1999; Declaration of Burt Neuborne, Esq. (5 November 1999), para. 8; Edward R.Korman,In re Holocaust Victim Assets Litigation (United States District Court for Eastern District of New York: 26 July 2000), pp. 23-4)

7. In re Holocaust Victim Assets Litigation, p. 19 (Korman).

8. Burt Neuborne, "Memorandum of Law Submitted by Plaintiffs in Response to Expert Submissions Filed By Legal Academics Retained by Defendants" (United States District Court for Eastern District of New York: 16 June 1997), p. 68 (cf. pp. 62-4). Hereafter: Neuborne Memorandum.

9. For non-recoverability of the final settlement, see Gribetz Plan, p. 12n18: "It should be noted that no part of the $1.25 billion settlement amount will revert to the defendant banks or to any other Swiss entities."

10. Gribetz Plan, pp. 11 ("vital significance"), 13-14, 93, 101-4.

11. Neuborne Memorandum, pp. 3, 6,-7, 11-12, 28-31, 34-5, 43, 47-8. The memorandum concedes that the Swiss banks would be legally liable only if they "knowingly" profited from the ill-gotten gains of the Nazis: "If one assumes lack of notice on the part of defendant banks, defendants' actions would not give rise to a claim for equitable disgorgement of unjust profits" (p. 34).

12. Gribetz Plan, pp. 23, 29, 113-14, 118n345, 128-9n371, 145-8, Annex G ("The Looted Assets Class"), pp. G-3, G-43, G-57, Annex H ("Slave Labor Class I"), pp. H-52, H-57-8.

13. Gribetz Plan, Annex J ("The Refugee Class"), p. J-26n85. Buried in a footnote we also learn that, according to a leading authority, Seymour J. Rubin, "Switzerland did admit many more refugees, in proportion to its population than any other nation. This is in contrast to a United States that not only denied entry to the desperate St. Louis refugees, but systematically failed to fill even the limited immigration quota that was available" (p. J-5). Noting that refugees barred from entering Switzerland during World War II would now receive compensation, Burt Neuborne, in a letter to the Nation magazine, regretted : "I only wish that a similar sanction could be imposed on the United States for its identical refusal to accept desperate refugees from Nazi persecution" (5 October 2000). Apart from hypocrisy and cowardice, what prevented the Holocaust industry's lead counsel from pressing this claim?

14. Gribetz Plan, p. 89. The quote is cited from Judge Korman's Court order granting final approval to the Settlement Agreement.

15. Gribetz Plan, Annex C ("Demographics of `Victim or Target' Groups"), p. C-13.

16. Gribetz Plan, pp. 135-6.

17. Gribetz Plan, Annex C , p. C-12, Annex F ("Social Safety Nets"), p. F-15.

18. Ukeles Associates Inc., Paper #3 (revised), Projection of the Population of Victims of Nazi Persecution, 2000-2040 (31 May 2000).

19. Gribetz Plan, p, 9, Annex C, p. C-8, Annex E ("Holocaust Compensation"), pp. E-89 and E-90n282. The 250,000 figure was used to distribute the monies from the "Special Fund for Needy Victims of the Holocaust" established by the Swiss in February 1997.

20. Gribetz Plan, Annex C, p. C-7, Table 3. The Plan concedes in a footnote that "in the former Soviet Union, there are relatively few survivors of the concentration camps, ghettos, or work camps" (Annex E, p. E-56n150).

21. Gribetz Plan, pp. 122-3, 125, Annex E, p. E-138, Annex F, p. F-4n13

22. Gribetz Plan, Annex E, p. E-56.

23. Steve Paulsson, "Re: Survivor Article," posted on http://[email protected] (28 September 2000).

24. Gribetz Plan, p. 135. It bears notice that the figure for Holocaust survivors in the original sense also undergoes a radical revision upward in the Gribetz Plan. The plan states that in the neighborhood of 170,000 former Jewish slave-laborers currently receive pensions from Germany. (Gribetz Plan, Annex H ("Slave Labor Class I"), pp. H-5-6) It is estimated that only one in four former Jewish slave-laborers received a German pension. This would put the total figure for former Jewish slave-laborers still alive today at nearly 700,000, and the total for Jewish slave laborers alive at war's end at 2,800,000. The standard scholarly figure for Jewish slave-laborers alive at war's end is about 100,000, with perhaps several tens of thousands still alive.

25. Gribetz Plan, pp. 7, 25-7, 83-4, 118-19, 138-9, 149, 154, and "Summary of Major Holocaust Compensation Programs." Apart from precedent, the Plan tautologically justifies this distribution "by current demographics, as Jewish victims now constitute the overwhelming proportion of surviving `Victims or Targets of Nazi Persecution' as defined under the Settlement Agreement" (p. 119). Jews only constitute the "overwhelming proportion" because of how the category "Victims or Targets..." was defined. For Gypsy reservations to the Plan, see Romani Comments and Objections to the Special Master's Proposed Plan of Allocation and Distribution. (Ramsey Clark et al., In re Holocaust Victim Assets Litigation (United States District Court for Eastern District of New York: November 2000))

26. Gribetz Plan, p. 15. The same statement is repeated verbatim on pp. 98-9.

27. The Volcker Committee recommended publication of the names of some 25,000 accounts having the highest probability of a relationship to victims of Nazi persecution. The total "fair current value" of 10,000 of these accounts for which some information is available runs to $150-$230 million. Projecting these estimates on the 25,000 accounts yields $375-$575 million. To judge by the Claims Resolution Tribunal's prior processing experience, valid claims will be filed against only one-half the 25,000 accounts and one-half the monies in these accounts for a total value of $188-$288 million. In addition, however, the 25,000 list overwhelmingly comprises not dormant but closed accounts bearing names that match a Holocaust victim. The Volcker Committee concluded that there is "no evidence of...concerted efforts to divert the funds of victims of Nazi persecution to improper purposes." Accordingly, the safe assumption is that almost all the closed accounts on the 25,000 list were properly closed by the actual account-holders, rightful heirs, or those with a legitimate and credible power of attorney, and that the CRT will validate only a few claims against these closed accounts. The total value of validated claims against the 25,000 accounts will thus likely fall well below even the $188-$288 million estimate that assumed all the accounts were dormant and the claims on half legitimate. (Gribetz Plan, pp. 94n298, 96-7, 105-6n326; Independent Committee of Eminent Persons, Report on Dormant Accounts of Victims of Nazi Persecution in Swiss Banks [Bern: 1999]), p. 13, para. 41(a))

28. Gribetz Plan, 12, 19-20. The Plan states on p. 12 that the "remainder of the Settlement Fund is to be distributed among the other...settlement classes"- i.e., "looted assets," "refugees," and "slave laborers." As shown below, the monies allocated for the "looted assets" class will be paid not to Holocaust survivors directly but rather to Jewish organizations involved in Holocaust work The Plan further states on pp.19-20 that "it also may be possible to allocate a portion of the remaining Settlement Fund to some of the proposed cultural, memorial or educational projects that have been submitted to the Special Master."

29. The Plan specifies that distribution of residuals from the $800 million cannot begin until all claims on the 25,000 accounts have been processed. It took the CRT fully three years to process 10,000 claims on a prior, separate list of 5,600 Swiss accounts. The Plan reports that many more than 80,000 claims will likely be filed against the list of 25,000. In addition, the Plan provides that all claims must be checked not only against the published list of 25,000 accounts but against millions of other Swiss accounts bearing no apparent relationship to Holocaust victims. Thus even if the CRT process is streamlined, it will surely take many years to complete. (Gribetz Plan, pp. 91, 94n299, 105-6n126) Apart from Holocaust victims holding dormant accounts, the Plan makes only vague and narrow provision for heirs. (pp. 18-19, and Annex D ("Heirs"))

30. Gribetz Plan, pp. 16-17.

31. Gribetz Plan, pp. 25-6, 120-1, 119-38.

32. Gribetz Plan, pp. 18, 27, 116, Annex C, p. C-10, Exhibit 3 to Annex C, p. 1. (The "Initial Questionnaires" were distributed to "Victims and Targets of Nazi Persecution" after Judge Korman approved the Swiss settlement.) Dismissing the extravagant claims of the Holocaust industry against the Swiss banks, Raul Hilberg, who fled Austria as a child with his parents, recalled in a recent interview: "In the 1930s, Jews were poor. My family belonged to the middle class, but we did not have a bank account in Austria, let alone in Switzerland." (Berliner Zeitung, 4 September 2000)

33. Gribetz Plan, pp. 29-31, 154-6.

34. Gribetz Plan, pp. 35-9, 172-5.

by Avi H. Thu May 15, 2003 10:01

The previous contributor shows that he knows little about the Holocaust, or deliberately obscures the facts. Any reasonable person, who really investigates what happened, will conclude that this was pretty much the greatest crime in history in virtually every respect, and that includes the rape of Nanking. However, this is not some macabre contest.

The post originally complained about was not 'debating' the holocaust in any real sense. Its tone was hostile. Its message was that the ADL's holocaust complaints were exaggerated and bogus, although no evidence whatsoever was provided to back this up. Its implication was that holocaust complaints are exaggereated. Putting these elements together reveals both anti-Semitism and holocaust denial.

by Ali. H Thu May 15, 2003 10:11

by lying about the EXTENT OF HOLOCAUST VICTIMS MONEY being held by by them

by Lies are not the answer Thu May 15, 2003 10:15

"the genocidal 'cleansing' of the Palestinians out of their OWN homeland that was invaded and occupied by Israel .Remember the Palestinians never even had an army that Israel could attack or conquer - all they had was LAND that Israel needed a war-pretext to steal. But Israel doesn't want peace - Israel wants to steal Palestine."

The poor Palestinians didn't have an army,but five armies of their Arab brothers who declared war on Israel after refusing to accept the partition plan.
The only people who steal land in the Middle East are the Arabs.In the Abode of Peace, the Arabs having unwittingly let part of the “Palestine” territory slip through their fingers to the Israelis feel deceived. After the Islamic conquest of the Middle East in the mid-7th AD, all the nation states of the region were absorbed into the (Dar Al-Silm) Abode of peace and integrated into the Islamic (umma) nation. To the Arabs, the name Israel was extinguished and so was Assyria, both language and people in race and national identity.

With the steady rise of Islam in the early years, Jewish and Christian holy sites were destined to either total destruction or conversion into Islamic Mosques and sacred shrines. The non-Islamic communities, residents of the Middle Eastern region, were suppressed in a bid to erode their racial identity. By adopting repressive measures and placing unjust limitations on their personal freedom in areas of self-expression, politics, religion, travel and association, the multiethnic communities became prisoners in their own homeland.

During the Khilafah period and until the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in the early 20th century, the name of the Biblical Land of Israel was dropped. Its name was politically documented as Palestine and put under the strict control and jurisdiction of the Abode of Peace. Palestine was given to mean extension of its physical and geographic landmass to include the whole of ancient Israel and it has since been considered as an Islamic territory. Islam calls it Palestine, relating it to Arabised Palestine.

In Islam, Israel is only mentioned for defamation; not praise. The Arabs will do whatever is needed to conquer it, even Jerusalem, which historically never belonged to Palestine, let alone to the Arabs. The ultimate aim of the Islamic states of the Abode of Peace is to recover lost territory by any means, especially Jerusalem, a one time Canaanite city of the pagan king Adoni-Zedek.

Throughout the ages Jerusalem has earned itself the name - the Holy City, the city of David, the City of Peace, the capital of Israel – not at all the city of the Arabs. The Islamic scheme to re-conquer lost land, eradicate Israel and expand their domain is ever alive.

Indigenous Nationals Taking the Brunt

Maltreatment of the Jews all over the world was one of the main reasons Islam was emboldened to continue persecution of the Jews and come hard on them, especially during the Third Reich of Nazi Hitler.

Not recognizing them as the indigenous people of the land of Israel, the Jews were not allowed to return to their traditional homeland. Now that the West has reconciled with itself, after World War II, recognising the Jews as an independent people, Arab/Islamic governments refuse to recognise them as a nation in their own God-given land. Islam’s uncompromising attitude and adamant stance has led the bitter Arab-Israeli conflict to reach a deadly impasse.

The Arab-Israeli conflict is not a purely local dispute or a minor confrontation, it is an Islamic-Israeli war. It is a religious war. It is an all out war. Otherwise why would Iran, Pakistan, Malaysia, Indonesia, and scores of other Islamic nations that are not Arab in race and nationality, and thousands of kilometres apart, condemn Israel and refuse to recognise the Jews as a people in their own right? Israel is the inheritance of the People of Israel; so is Assyria the inheritance of her displaced Assyrian people in northern Mesopotamia.

The misnomer of the Holy Land of Israel as Palestine is a grievous error, which the world body needs to rectify. The borderlines of the Holy Land, which the Moslems call 'Palestine' do not reflect the true picture of the traditional Israel. The boundaries of the disputed region need to be politically redrawn for the capital Jerusalem to fall within the State of Israel as its traditional capital. Jerusalem would then remain as the physical capital of Israel and as the spiritual capital of the world open to all nations to go and worship there.

Land Grabbers

Historically, the approximate size of the original Palestine was no more than the Gaza strip of today. Islamic states treat Assyria and the Assyrians as nonexistent, equally the same as Israel and the Jewish people. Dar Al-Silm considers both Israel and Assyria as, vanquished states and their respective peoples either extinct or Arab.

Arab Islamic states relate Israel and Assyria to ancient history. In fact, the estimated census of the Israeli people as at the end of 1999 is estimated at about eighteen million. Two thirds of its population still live in the diaspora. The Assyrians whose population has grown to about five million is in a worse situation. Their territory has been invaded and their properties and homes appropriated by the Kurds with encouragement of the Islamic states of the Abode of Peace to give the region a distinctive Islamic feature. Assyrian villagers in northern Iraq are being constantly threatened to move out and leave their homes to the oncoming hostile nomadic Kurds. The Kurdish manoeuvre is to discourage the international community from rehabilitating the Assyrians in their own traditional homeland. The Kurds cause tactical flare-ups to keep the UN and the international community worried and as an unwelcome gesture to the Assyrians to discourage their return to their old towns and villages.

The Jews have persistently claimed, based on historical facts, that the Biblical Land, Eretz Yisrael belongs to them. Their capital city, Jerusalem and the Temple on Mount Zion is an historical proof of their claim to their ancestral homeland. Since dispersal of the Jews in 131 AD throughout the Mediterranean Basin of the Roman Empire, for their constant rebellion against the Imperial power of the Roman rule, the Jews always ended their prayer with a plea for their return home. They hoped that someday their historical land would be restored to them and that they would all meet in their homeland, Eretz Yisrael, and praise their Jehovah God on Mount Zion.

For 19 hundred years while living in diaspora, many countries did not accept the Jews as equal and were told to go away. They lived an estranged life. No matter how faithful they were and how much they contributed to the country in which they lived, they were not accepted as full citizens and on occasions, were totally rejected. Now that they have gone back to Israel, to where they came from, the Moslem world does not want them. Why not? With the passage of time, enmity towards the Jews increased to the point where some countries treated them as outcasts, clamped down on their freedom. Still not satisfied, some undemocratic regimes in both the East and the West aroused deep anti-Semitic feelings and hatred against the Jews and conspired to annihilate them. Their systematic persecution and massacres, especially during the Nazi Holocaust of the Jews in World War II, culminated in their return from banishment to part of their ancestral homeland – Israel became a reality again.

The Physical Palestine

The confusion and arguments arising from the area referred to as Palestine seems to fall into three historical periods, namely, (1) ancient Palestine known as Gaza, (2) Arab Palestine known as part of the Abode of Peace, after the Islamic conquests of the Middle East and (3) the Mandated Palestine under the British rule until May 1948. During these three periods the borderline of the so-called Palestine fluctuated.

The approximate size of ancient Palestine was a narrow patch of coastal land that stretched along the southern seaboard of the Mediterranean Sea between Gaza and their northernmost city Ekron, known today as the Gaza Strip. During the Islamic conquest of the Middle East in mid-7th century AD, the Holy Land of Israel was historically different in size and immensely larger than ancient Palestine.
The territory traditionally known as Palestine by the Greeks, the Romans, the Arabs, and Ottoman Turks after its conquest encompassed the vast region of the Gaza Strip, Judea and Samaria of the Kingdom of biblical Israel and parts of Trans-Jordan. Palestine is a Greek misnomer for (AR-AT PLISHTAYI) the Land of the Philistines, which originally was no more than Gaza. Arabised Palestine, including the historical Holy Land of Israel, had become part of the Abode of Peace of an ever expanding domain of the Islamic (Umma) Nation.
In the aftermath of Post World War I I, the Arab states reluctantly accepted the British mandate of Palestine. The Palestinians rejected the international borderlines demarcated by the League of Nations. In their Covenant, the Arabs defined Palestine, at the time of its existence under the British Mandate, as ‘an indivisible territorial unit.’ They wanted all the mandated territory to be brought under the total dominance of the Palestinian Arabs. The Palestinians argued that what landscape was left of the Palestinian territory, outside the mandated borders, had already been brought under dominance of the Arab countries, swallowed up by several neighbouring newly created Arab states. They were against any further dismemberment of the remaining Palestinian territory under the British Mandate.
The Palestinians demanded that the mandated Palestine be established as a unitary state, under Palestinian rule, in par with the rest of the Arab states in the region. The British government rejected the ‘Arab’ Palestinian demand for a unitary state on the grounds that auxiliary Arab nomadic tribes and militias had not physically participated in the liberation of the mandated Palestine. Besides, Britain had pointed out that it had never made such a pledge in the McMahon-Hussein eight-letter correspondence of 1915-16.

Not all the territory is up for grabs by the Arabs. If the present Palestinians are truly indigenous to ancient Palestine, claiming the historical Palestine as their home, then let them restrict their claim to within the borders of the Gaza Strip. If they, as they claim, are Arabs then they are invaders and occupiers. Let them accept what has been apportioned to them. Israel is a geopolitical reality and different from Palestine, period.

The Physical Israel

Jericho was the first Canaanite city that the Israelites conquered. After the death of Moses, Joshua the son of Nun took command. He was chosen by God and succeeded Moses. In the Spring of 1743 BC, Joshua assumed leadership of the Israelites. The Israelites, by God’s command and under Joshua's leadership, crossed the river Jordan on dry grounds and conquered the first Canaanite city, Jericho.

Consequently, with divine assistance, the seven condemned kingdoms that were within the borders of the Canaanite land were defeated, among them the city of Jerusalem. They fell to the Israelites in rapid succession in fulfillment of God’s promise to them. The Israelites conquered most of Canaan, the land that God had earlier designated and promised to their forefather Abraham that He would give it to His people the Israelites. The territory of Palestine, at the time, was no more than a narrow patch of coastal land that stretched along the southern seaboard of the Mediterranean Sea between Gaza and their northernmost city Ekron (Michael Avi-Yonah, 1972: pp 66-69; Holy Bible: Numbers 34: 1-13; Leviticus 18: 3-25; Deuteronomy 18: 9-12; Exodus 23: 23, 24; 34: 11-16; Joshua 3: 13-17). Present day Israel is significantly smaller in size than the ancient biblical Israel.

Tactics & Strategies of the Hardliners

The Arab Palestinians claim that the whole ‘Palestine’ is an integral part of the Arab territory and indivisible -- an ambiguous border definition of the ‘Arab’ Palestine. Arabs speak of their past glory and territorial landmass, presuming Israel as part of the Abode of Peace of the Islamic Umma Nation.

Pan-Arabism seems to have recently surged to a want of the whole of the Middle East and North Africa, as “the Arab World” – an overly ambitious notion of extending their domain, disrespecting the land rights of the indigenous people of the region. By their definition, all residents of Palestine, during and after 1947, were Palestinian Arabs, subject to the Arab rule of law. (Ref: articles two, five and six of the Palestine National Covenant). Islamic countries treat the indigenous Assyrians in the Arab States in the same manner as they treat the Jews, progressively altering their nationality to Arab.

Spain is an anathema in Islamic history. The Arabs, under the Berber leadership of Tariq Bin Zeyad, invaded Spain in 711 AD. Islam occupied Spain and ruled it for nearly eight centuries. However, the Arabs were ultimately forced out of Spain. Spain stemmed out Arab rule from its midst and restored Catholicism as its official Christian religion. It succeeded in liberating itself from (Dar Al-Silm) the Abode of Peace by bringing the Spanish political and military forces under one unified command against the Arab occupier.

January 2, 1492, marked the end of Islamic reign in Spain. It has since become an indelible black mark in Islamic history. Islam reiterates that Israel will not be a repeat of Spain. Islam as a whole will never endorse recognition of Israel. It is against their doctrine to surrender land that they have already won and falls within the realm of the Islamic Nation. In their dictum, the biblical land of Israel became part of Palestine, a so-called state of the Abode of Peace, after it fell to the Arab invaders during the early days of the Islamic conquests of the Middle East, and that it should remain so.

For example, the Palestine National Covenant declares in Article 6,

“The Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion will be considered Palestinians.” In Article 15 it states, “ The liberation of Palestine, from an Arab viewpoint, is a national duty… and aims at the elimination of Zionism in Palestine.”

No matter how many Islamic states recognise Israel, there will always be some militant hardliners that will reject it. They will act on behalf of certain defiant Islamic states and continue to oppose its existence. With continued financial and manpower support by such hostile states, the militant Mujahideen act as proxy and fight their war.

All the Islamic governments in the Abode of Peace want to do away with their Western style parliamentary system and replace it with their own sectarian one, based on their religious law of (Majlis Al-Shura) the Consultative Assembly, or (Majlis Al-Watani) the National Assembly. They bitterly oppose the existence of Israel and restoration of Assyria to the end. Their jihad (holy war) slogan is: do or die; either perish or pressure the Islamic states to revoke their recognition of Israel and suppress the Assyrian identity to the end. The policy of the (Dar Al-Harb and Dar Al-Silm) Abode of War and the Abode of Peace dictates never to surrender gained territory but rather enlarge the community and ultimately declare their faith supreme globally. (Pryce-Jones, 1989: 27-28).

Losing Islamised territory outside (Dar Al-Silm) the Abode of Peace geographical zone is considered a relapse and regrettable, like Spain and the Balkans. But to lose Islamic territory within the borders of the Abode of Peace, like Israel and the future prospect of re-establishing self-rule in Assyria, is unforgivable - To Islam it is a bitter pill, hard to swallow. It is against their Islamic doctrine. It is contradictory to the adherence and fulfilment of their Prophet’s personal message of global Islamisation. Regress does not mean abandonment of their mission.

Mujahideen are the poker of Islam that faithfully keeps the Jihad fire astir. The demise of the Soviet presence and their troops in Afghanistan is still fresh in the Russian people’s minds. This was done by the surging wave of the Mujahideen against the Soviet troops not for the love of America or the West or mere hatred of Communism, but for the love of Allah and in fulfillment of their prophet’s message of global Islamisation. They insist on following the path of spreading their message (Al-Da’awah) by force rather than preaching it by oratory and open dialogue.

by John Thu May 15, 2003 10:20

Beneath the uniformity of Arabism a substructure of living, resistant, minority peoples cultivating their pre-Arab and pre-Islamic native languages, cultures, and religions.One can organize the groups into four main categories: (1) the Islamized peoples who resisted Arab/Muslim colonialism and kept their own culture and languages, like the Kurds (Iraq, Syria, Iran, Turkey), the Berbers (Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco), and the Baluch (Pakistan); (2) the heterodox Muslim minorities who were Arabized but resisted Islamization by keeping their ancestral beliefs and customs under a Muslim veneer, like the Druzes (Levant) and the Alawites (Syria); (3) the Christian minorities: Armenians, Assyrians, Copts, Maronites, and Sudanese; and (4) the Jews, the only minority who succeeded in liberating a part of their historical land from Arab-Islamic imperialism. To the average observer, the Middle East appears to be a homogeneous, gigantic Arab-Muslim continent. Under this heavy blanket of uniformity, however, the remnants of colonized, extinguished nations, crushed and dispossessed by imperialism, survive in pain and anguish. These peoples Kurds, Alawites, Copts, Jews, and others have withstood jihad, genocides, persecutions, and continual sociopolitical repression. Yet their hearts still beat, inspired by the hope of freedom and survival.
Indymedia aspires for completely Arabized Middle East by spreading lies and not supporting the native indigenous population, the Assyrians,Copts,Berbers and Jews.

by pat c Thu May 15, 2003 10:52

So its OK for millions Jews who have no connection with Israel to immigrate; but to let Palestinians (who were driven out 50 years ago) return would swamp Jewish culture.

Avi, once again you have exposed yourself as a racist. An anti-semite actually, you favour Europeam immigrants over the native smites.

by kokomero Thu May 15, 2003 11:02

There once was a lad called Avi
Who for fun loved a bit of a fight
So he'd post and then disagree
See for him Israel's always right

He targets civilian attacks
He needs nukes and missiles to be free
And when he gets some of it back
He says you're all anti-semites you see

So off he'd go in a huff
And for weeks he wouldn't be seen
He'd go away killing Palestinians off
And tryin' to convince us he's green

Of course to his motives we're wise
When on the IMC he trolls
His views on the Muslims aren't nice
He's as relevant as the dead sea scrolls

by Avi H. Thu May 15, 2003 11:11

You betray your total ignorance of Israel and the Jewish people. Jews do not just come from Europe; they also come from Israel (yes, Israel!), every Arab country and virtually every other country in the world, including India, China, Ethiopia and even Uganda. Jews are not just white Europeans, many of them are very black, a lot blacker than Arabs, in fact. It's nice and simple to think of Jews as European colonialists, which is the normal Palestinian propaganda line, however the reality is quite different. Moreover, historic Palestine encompassed Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Israel, the West Bank, Gaza and Sinai. When I last looked, the Arabs (who don't even come from that area - they are from Arabia, whereas Jews are from Judea - get it?) got four sovereign states out of that area with over 95% of its territory, whereas the Jews got only one and even that they had to fight for and still do. Who do you think are the real imperialists here? It's the Arabs, who persecute all their minority cultures, not the Jews.

by pat c Thu May 15, 2003 11:14

As you well know, the vast majority of immigrants come from Europe & the former USSR so less of the bluster.

The Palestinians were driven out of UN Mandate Palestine And Israel in 1947. So less redherrings please.

by Simpson eh? Thu May 15, 2003 12:42

About Abyssiniain Jews rioting in Israel due to their treatment as third class citizens in their homeland?

Does that make me an anti-semite for popinting this out Avi? It is not the Jewish multi-cultural idyll you claim it to be.

Ethiopian Jews riot in Jerusalem
January 25-Feb 7, 1996

As many as 10,000 Jews of Ethiopian origins clashed with riot police in Jerusalem January 28 during a protest against the practice of dumping their donated blood in fear of contamination by the virus that causes AIDS. The huge number of demonstrators overwhelmed police as they shouted their anger over what some called "apartheid in Israel." Police opened fire with tear gas and rubber bullets in an attempt to disperse the crowds in front of the offices of Prime Minister Shimon Peres.

Israeli blood bank officials secretly discarded blood donated by Ethiopian immigrants, claiming there is a higher rate of HIV infection than among other Israeli Jews, according to reports first published in the daily Maariv. This revelation touched off widespread anger among the 60,000 Ethiopian Jews who have arrived in Israel in the past 10 years. Black Jews are subject to systematic racial discrimination and face economic conditions as bad as those of the Palestinian Arabs.

(if I wasn't busy at work today I'd try to dig around for more reports on the event).

by Selah Thu May 15, 2003 13:01

I've never visited this site before, and I've go to say I'm glad. What a bunch of denial laden pansies you all are. Spouting rhetoric, ganging up on one person whose opionion you don't agree with, and coming out with disgustingly anti-semitic garbage, and then denying your denial. This is what free speech is supposed to protect? So you escape the clutches of the global corporate media just to create a new fascism of your own - one in which your opinion rather than truth is what counts. Yes the Holocause happened. Yes people are being killed in huge numbers elsewhere, Rwanda and Sudan are recent examples that come to mind. Yes, bashing Israel regardless of the truth and complexity of the situtaion is en vogue, and you bunch of poser fuck-offs feel comfortable sitting at home and writing this trash knowing that within the "critical left" you are soundly within the majority. You're just another bunch of fucking sheep. Give you a line to sell and an axe to grind as you're happy as a bunch of swine sitting in your own self-righteous shit. Stay strong Avi. These are people of much mouth, but little reason. Selah

by iosaf Thu May 15, 2003 14:05

first visit to an IMC site?
and you pick Ireland?
and you decide to come down on the side of racist, fake Avi H?

The Holocaust happened, oh yes it did, and no one in IMC denies that, but the state of Israel is a fascist war machine based aggresive entity that is waging war on the Palestinian people just as it waged war on the Lebanese people before.

sad but true.
and we are on the poorer people's side.
that simple.
QaL Halsham, shalom.

Do you somehow think Avi H is the only jewish person who visits this site?

by Ali H. Thu May 15, 2003 14:12

Get real Selah (Avi) you are a troll trying to provoke a reaction and when you get one you complain. Try posting real news on the newswire in a disciplined fashion rather than bombarding it with dirge for over a week and I'm sure you'll get a more sympathetic ear.

by Someone Thu May 15, 2003 19:45

Why do you loons yell that Israel needs to perfect itself, but you're ok with Israel's neighbors continuing to be horrible?

In 20th century Europe, people told the Jews to, "Get out and go to Palestine!"

Today, many people tell the Jews to, "Get out of Palestine and go to Elsewhere!"

For 1,500 years Jews lived as dogs in the middle east. Jews finally rise up and form their own SMALL little state, and their neighbors respond by kicking the Jews out of their countries (blaming all Jews even if they had nothing to do with anything) and trying to kill Israel. And why do you have such a problem with Israel giving special consideration to Jews? No one else does. Jews still get horribly discriminated against in Russia, across eastern europe, and in the select few arab countries that they still live in, so Israel makes sure they are allowed into Israel. Why are you so against that? (The answer is pretty obvious.)

And Israeli citizens who are not Jewish get treated infinitely better than Jews who would dare attempt to live in Jordan or Iraq, yet you ignore that, you don't rally for justice for Jews living in arab countries (the few that haven't fled), you just single israel out for not being as fair as they could be, and you yell that isael isn't being nice to palestinians, yet you ignore that israel offered to end the "occupation" about a zillion times if the palestinians would agree to recognize that isael shoudl be left alone, yet in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and some of the 90's, they refused to do that, and finally in the 90's arafat said he'd agree to that, yet other "destroy israel" organizations popped right up and continued where the PA left off.

Yet, you loons focus all your attention on how nasty the Jews of Israel are.

Very, very strange...

******************************

Both sides insults jews/israel

Right Wing jerks single out Jews for hatred and vitriol, demonize Jews, exaggerate Jewish faults, impute crimes of certain Jews to all Jews, concoct Jewish conspiracies to explain whats wrong with society, blame Jews for corrupting the world, claim the influence of the Jewish media is why more people don't agree with them.

Left Wing jerks single out the Jewish State for hatred and vitriol, demonize the Jewish State, exaggerate the Jewish State's faults, impute crimes of certain Israelis to all Israelis, concoct Zionist conspiracies to explain whats wrong with society, blame the Jewish State for corrupting the world, claim the influence of the Zionist media is why more people don't agree with them.

Jews, and/or Israel, will always face exaggerations, lies and scapegoating from both sides. I wish there was another planet to live on.

*********************

Palestinians have cared more about destroying Israel than about setting up their own neighbor state. That's the main problem over the last 50 years.

Palestinian leadership and main terrorist organizations made it clear for a long, long time now that they oppose Israel existing. But it isn't good publicity to announce that to the media, so they stopped saying it. And you want to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Well, hamas still say it, but you want to pretend they don't. Hamas publically states they consider all of israel/palestinian to be occupied. They're fighting the existence of israel. that's why they and the egyptian govt couldn't agree to anything 2 weeks ago when they met.

The average palestinian may just want the "occupation" to end (and they are against israel existing, obviously), but hamas and many main terrorist groups still openly admit that THE ENTIRE AREA is "occupied," and the way to end that is to kill the jews there.

That's the main problem. Despite what your ignorant, uneducated, misguided friends and favorite writers may state.

*************************

Palestinians could have had a state already, but they preferred trying to destroy Israel and fulfill their dreams of one large Jew-less state.

I guess palestinian "leadership" should have formed a state in 1948, or 1949, or 1950, or 1951, or 1952, or 1953, or 1954, or 1955, or 1956, or 1957, or 1958, or 1959, or 1960, or 1961, or 1962, or 1963, or 1964, or 1965, or 1966, instead of just waging war on Israel all that time when Israel was NOT preventing them from forming a state, EH?

And I guess palestinian "leadership" should not have spent 1967 to the early 1990's trying to destroy israel, EH?

And I guess from the 1990's on, when arafat FINALLY agreed that isarel has the right to exist and pretended that he doesn't want israel destroyed anymore, Palestinians should have stopped terrorist attacks against isarel and accepted one of the peace offers, instead of waging intifadas, and then attacks, and now another intifada, EH?

But sure, blame israel for every problem, single them out for everthing. That makes no sense at all, but don't let that stop you.

Stop unfairly singling zionists out. Zionism was to make a safe home for Jews when they VERY BADLY needed one. Israel's goal is to exist. Stop singling Jews out for trying to make sure they can still exist. You nutcases out there who criticize Israel should go try living with the enemy of Israel - hamas, hezzbollah, islamic jihad and all the other nutcases.

Is there any reason you single Israel out for giving special treatment to Jews, but you don't single Palestine out for not allowing any Jews at all? And you don't single Iraq out for what they did to their Jewish
population? And Syria, and Lebanon, and Iraq? Is there a reason why you are ok with discrimination against Jews that has taken place in almost every
middle east country, but you are not ok with Israel giving special treatement to Jews?

Why do you single Jews out for trying to their little state, but you don't apply equal criticism to states that have been MUCH worse in their fairness?

Don't pretend that it's not about "jews" and only about "zionists." You are singling zionists out for not being perfect while trying to protect their own people, while you do not place equal attention on other people who do much worse stuff. WHy not just admit that you have agendas beyond what you claim?

Stop lying about zionism. Focus on people who are really doing bad things, not "the Jews," not "the zionists," not any one entire group of people.

Had the Palestinians cared more about their own state than about killing Israel, a state of Palestine woudl have existed already. Don't blame Israel beacuse Palestinian leadership for decades cared more about destroying Israel than focusing on their own people. There was nothing stopping arabs from making Palestine a state from 1948 to 1967, except arabs just kept trying to kill Israel. Had they left Israel alone, they'd have had yet another arab state.

When moderate Palestians have suffered all this time, it's because their leaders have been extremists who focused on destruction rather than being a neighbor.

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Why do so many of you want to lie about zionism and paint it negatively? Jews got crapped on in much of the world for a very long time, and zionism was a response, to establish a safe place. It wasn't about attacking anyone, it was about defense, and safety, and a home in a land that didn't treat Jews like pets (or cockroaches).

Those of you who focus a huge amount of attention on attacking zionism are either misinformed, or more likely informed but hiding hidden agendas. Zionism is not racist, it favors Jews who are white, black and in-between. THere is no "ethnic cleansing" since the majority of Jewish semitic people and Muslim semitic people are of the same race. Also, Israeli citizens of all races and religions are still citizens, no one group is being rounded up and deported or attacked. Israel's main fight is with people who live outside of Israel and are not Israeli citizens.

Those of you who single zionism out as something bad are misguided, or with agenda. The #1 reason zionism was formed and exists was/is as a response to what Jews were put through in much of the world for the last 2000 years. It's about a safe haven.

Currently, almost 20% of Israel's citizens are not Jewish. Hundreds of thousands of Muslim Israelis work, vote and live pretty regular lives in Israel.

Palestinians kicked every Jew out of Palestinian land.

Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, Palestine and almost every arab country destroyed their Jewish communities and forced Jews to flee elsewhere. Israel took the refugees in.

Yet arab countries refused to take in Palestinian refugees.

You anti-zionist loons ignore all this, you ignore balanced reality, you single Israel out for not being a better democracy than it is, yet you intentionally ignore what most arab nations did to their jews. It's ok with you that almost every Jew suffered even if they had nothing to do with Israel or anything?

You spend a huge amount of time exaggerating or lying about zionism, acting like it's a bad thing, while intentionally ignoring really bad things that don't suit your agenda.

Many arab countries blamed any Jews living there for what Jews in Israel were allegedly doing wrong. Yet you don't care. It doesn't suit your agenda. You just want to rant about what Jews do wrong, only you pretend it's all about "zionism" and politics, and hide behind a "politically correct" lie. Why not just admit it, you want to single Jewish Israelis out for what they allegedly do "wrong," while you want to forgive or ignore what was actually done to Jews in that part of the world that plays a huge role on how Israel responds to stuff.

Try being balanced. Probably hard, I guess, when you are fueled by obsessive-compulsive, dishonest and unhealthy hatred of zionists/Israel, eh?

Zionism isn't "bad." It was about giving Jews a safe home. You may disagree with how the current Israeli government is handling things, but the lies about zionism and Israel and the dishonest and unfair singling-out of Jews and zionists needs to stop.

by kokomero Fri May 16, 2003 08:09

Wading through your rambling excuse for a post (cut and paste combined with thinking out loud) the following "nuggets" of information can be extracted

a. Jews/Israelis good ... everybody else bad

b. Jews are not welcome anywhere in the world outside Israel

c. All European countries expelled Jews by force and told them to go and kick the Arabs out of Palestine

d. Arabs everywhere joined in the act and expelled all Jews to kick their Muslim brothers out of Palestine

e. Jews everywhere especially in Eastern Europe and Russia are leaving their families, businesses and livelyhoods to go back to Israel for reasons of religious presecution alone

f. Israel offers equal rights for all citizens

g. The way Israelis treat is the best that the Palestinians can expect

h. The Palestinians can have a state as long as they are prepared to accept Zionist settlements within their territory

If you want to get your point across in future try to keep your posts short and to the point.

by Wow Sat May 17, 2003 09:43

There seem to be a lot of insane people mixed in with the sane people here.

First of all, Israel has not rejected the peace plan. Israel is negotiating, to make sure they don't accept an offer that will come back to destroy them in the future.

Israel all along has insisted that first Palestinians must stop their terrorist intifada, and in return, Israel would then negotiate and agree to a peace plan. Israel has said that as long as the Palestinian intifada (armed terrorist attacks, organized with intent to kill innocent people) continues, they will not negotiate with terrorists.

For 35 years, Palestinians have had the same leader. Yasser Arafat. A man who used to intentionally kill innocent people and then take public credit, bragging about it.

Israel has had many different leaders over the years, who tried many different approaches to peace, but none worked because the SAME MAN this whole time, Arafat, was in charge of hte Palestinians. A man who for decades called for Israel's destruction.

I want Israel to end their occupation, but NOT while Arafat, or islamic extremist terrorists, are in charge of the Palestinians. Arafat, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc. are crazed extremists, and have no business being rewarded.

Ariel sharon is not the problem. Palestinians began their latest intifadas SEVERAL MONTHS BEFORE ariel sharon was elected to run israel. He's only been in office for 2.5 years. Arafat has been the dictator/'leader' of the palestinians for 35 years in a row.

If you support Israeli people and palestinians, you should want Israel to hand land control over to SANE, RESPONSIBLE, non-extremist palestinian leaders who will turn Palestine into a decent state, making things much better for both sides.

If you want war and destruction, and tons of israeli and/or palestinian deaths, you should demand israel end the occupation immediately so that terrorists like arafat can have power, grow palestine into a terrorist state just like yemen, iraq, iran, lebanon, syria, etc. are, and eventually palestine would just make war on israel and horrible things could result.

As for the "right of return," arab countries are not offering to give the hundrds of thousands of jews who had to flee those countries their homes and possessions back, so why should israel be expected to give hundreds of thousands of palestinians, and their decendents, the right to come into israel, which would result in israel not being a jewish state anymore, which would allow the extremist portion of palestinians to just kill off the jews and take the country over.

"Right of return" for palestinians means the destruction of the jews of israel.

Also, "right of return" for arabs into the jewish state (which already has 20% muslim citizens) while NOT allowing the "right of return" for jews into all the arab states that kicked them out and stole their stuff is a ridiculous unfair double-standard!

When palestinians are led by non-extremists - by normal, sane people, that are worth supporting, that's when things will progress.

If people like arafat run the palestinians for the next 250 years, israel should continue the occupation for hte next 250 years.

If normal nice sane people run the palestinians starting in 2005, then israel should work to end the occupation starting in 2005.

That is logic, based in reality, with eyes on the big picture and the long future.