Elections vs. Democracy in Argentina (Klein)

by Phuq Hedd Mon May 12, 2003 18:17

and all that rubbish? I mean, it seems like another of those type posts that we've been having a lot of recently. It'd be nice of the editors would move this off the newswire.

Also, if you're going to add newswire items that are just you saying "look, here's an article, now argue" you should be aware that you're pushing off news like the sandmartin story etc.

Finally, you could have taken the time to actually link to Naomi's website where the article originates. Maybe the editors could delete it on that basis -- no proper crediting?

by R Isible - 1 of IMC Mon May 12, 2003 18:24

Although your points are valid about the effect of this NEWSwire post the other thread is about the SA/SWP and not about anarchism and Argentina.

by as do many other piqeteros Mon May 12, 2003 18:32

nothing to do with left wing bickering going on here - though it might serve as a salutory warning on what such bickering - and hijacking of social movements - can lead to

by Phuq Hedd - Wind beneath your whatever Mon May 12, 2003 18:55

Give me a break. The framing of this article as "fundamentalist anarchists and socialists" is obviously a pathetic attempt to provoke another flame fest about anarchism/socialism/SWP/SA/SP/blah

It should be deleted as non-news.

by Passive Mon May 12, 2003 19:07

Well lads, aside from the usual in-bickering, if anyone actually bothered to read the article it is quite interesting. Essentially, Klein has been bleating on for months now about how Argentina has rejected all politicians and the people are taking power back. Now she has been forced to admit that the centre-right are coming back into power. It looks like Klein's revolution has turned into nothing. And she looks like a bit of a twat now.

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Mon May 12, 2003 20:06 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

Eh? We read the same article right? Klein has been praising the work of many of those local assemblies and organisations. She acknowledges they failed but she coherently puts forward the argument as to why they failed which were not because the new system they were trying to create itself was flawed, but because of the manner in which established groups reacted to it.

As for looking like a twat, I repect a journo far more who can say, I made a mistake than thoe who jump through hoops and turn logic on its head to explain away their errors.

I've been reading a lot of her material from Argentina and it's been good stuff. I think her analysis of the downfall of the system is very interesting, especially the domination of these groups by left wing parties and the barely conceivable foolishness of ignoring the election.

by Andrew Tue May 13, 2003 11:43

Sounds like a lot of the problems with left parties tearing apart the assemblies in the process of trying to dominate them were very similar to what happened in Portugal after the revolution in '74. There as well the rejection of parties became a rejection of the very idea of a political solution and after two years the social democrats came into power.

The problem (for the ruling class) in Argentina though is the lack of carrot due to the deep crisis of capitalism there. Menem getting back into power won't solve anything for them unless the wave of repression he is promising is unopposed. Electoral opposition to it would be relatively meaningless (thats where I disagree with Klein's analysis) its the organisation of opposition on the streets that will determine his success or failure.

But beyond that the BIG problem for the working class in Arentina is that lack of any agreed way forwards. The factory occupations can only go forwards or backwards, they can't be maintained in the longer term. Unfortuanatly, as in Portuagal, it appears the parties of the left are a barrier to the agreement of a way of going forwards when they could be an aide. As usual though the 'big picture' is lost in the manoveurings of individual left parties for power and influence.

BTW the original posters comments about 'anarchists' are a little odd. There are anarchist organisations in Argentina but they are too small to have much influence on events and in any case are arguing for organisation and revolution.

by David Rynne Tue May 13, 2003 12:45

My understanding of the above article is that the people of Argentina got confused and frustrated because they had discovered for themselves over years of corruption, greed and mismanagement that the political system was to blame and that it needed to be replaced by something new that actually represented the people.

Once they actually began to organise and build a new world for themselves they were subverted by the late arrival of Socalist Parties who were utterly incapable of pausing their electioneering even if the objective was to replace such elections with real democracy. I can see the paralells with Ireland's movement building that continues after the movement is already built and actually contributes to its collapse.

The socialist parties were right to refuse to take part in the elections but i have a feeling that their strategy was to build loyalty to their party and so the party leaders would be a pseudo government. (a policy doomed towards further civil war) They could not visualise a world where the heirarchical system of top down leadership was replaced and because of that refusal to at least try they dragged the movement back to where they were before it all started.

The first thing the revolutionaries should have done was destroy the paperwork, the contracts, everything that legally bound them to the corrupt mistakes of their previous rulers, that should be one of the first tasks of any revolution. (in my humble opinion)

by Jim Monaghan Tue May 13, 2003 13:39

The alphabet soup of the Left who failed to offer a creditible alternative are responsible for this debacle. A bourgeois state practically collapsed and the Left could not fill the vacuum.
Some called for a boycott or spoiled ballots others refused to negotiate with each other. It was a mess. If the same happened here it would not be much different. The far left appears content to be organisers of the odd big march or " exciting " direct action but when it comes to offering a challenge to the fakirs like Rabbittee at the polls they prefer their sectarian isolation.
Argentina had a serious Trotskyist party once led by Moreno. But it split many ways after his death and the splinters are nmore preoccupied with their feuds than with the struggle.
Don't know much about the Anarchists but as in Spain they will ignore where the styruggle is at and see only the factory occupations as the real thing which occupations will be swept away when the workers get tired of the cul de sac they are in.
There was a chance but the Left failed it.Her I predict that the mnext election will at most offer a result with Rabbitte as Tanaiste to either FF or FG. No cahnge

by Mark P - Socialist Worker Tue May 13, 2003 16:11 markpearson68 at hotmail dot com

I am one of those Far-Left-Wingers calling for electoral unity her in Ireland.
Look at the example of Scotland (The SWP & SS have joined together as a single party) where the SS have gone from 1 MSP (member of the Scottish Parliment) to 6, in last week's election.
We only have one Far-Left TD here, and last year's (June elections) strategy of seperate campaigns didn't improve the situation. Despite Clare Daly doing very well the Soc. Party haven't increased their number of TD's (1).

No it's not all about winning seats to Parliment.
But we have to offer a credible alternative to Rabbite & Co. Elections are an opportunity for revolutinaries to become visible and put across some of their arguments to a wider audience, if we spend are time bickering (esp the SS & SWP) then we lose these oppurtunities. Klein's article suggests that the "Old Left" parties in Argentina operated in a sectarian manner. Let's not repeat that mistake here.

I would be more than happy to campaign for a Socialist Party candidate.

Fraternally

Mark Pearson

by Independent Tue May 13, 2003 17:19

SWP guy wrote:

Elections are an opportunity for revolutinaries to become visible and put across some of their arguments to a wider audience,

Really? So why the SWP made a point of principle in boycotting elections for decades and of accusing others on the left who didn't of being reformist.
P.s.: "fraternally"? A bit sexist? Some of us are women!

by Mark P Tue May 13, 2003 20:07 markpearson68 at hotmail dot com

Yes, people make mistakes.

And when were we wrong?

Now or then?

However there was never a "boycott" of elections as we always called for a left-wing vote. A "boycott" would say: "don't vote it's a con".
But I am not taking issue with that here today.

What I am taking issue with is seperate Far-left campaigns at election time. And I think the Scotish Left have got the right strategy (remember they are dominated by the SSP not the SWP). I think this is a big issue for the Far-Left in Ireland; if we were united people would take us seriously on national issues at the moment our strength is more around local issues.

Yours Sisterarally

Mark Pearson

by Passive Tue May 13, 2003 21:12

The point I was making was that Klein has been going on about Argentina for so long as if it were the start of a worldwide revolutionary movement. The movement was sprung up in Argentina was great and it did look like it was going somewhere. However, and this is where I disagree with a lot of indymedia users, if you do not participate in electoral politics there is no point in having a movement. How will the left every take control if they do not participate in elections. As regards Klein, I thought the article was an attempt to justify the election of the right wing whilst also claiming that the revolution has not gone away. I wonder if her reluctance to accept that the revolution is over has anything to do with her movie about Argentina which she is currently finishing off???

by Independent Wed May 14, 2003 06:39

SWP guy wrote:

However there was never a "boycott" of elections as we always called for a left-wing vote.

That's true. You always voted and urged to vote Labour, even where there were socialist or revolutionary alternatives!

People can make mistakes, good point. Unfortunately nobody has ever heard the SWP Leaders saying that they had made a mistake. If they did, their crocodile's tears abouit left unity would sound a touch less oportunistic.

by David Rynne Thu May 15, 2003 13:36

She was trying to explain how it happened and that is an important distinction.

In my opinion i think the only electoral campaigning that should be done by left wing revolutionaries is for the inclusion of a "none of the above" box on the ballot paper, and if such a box were available then it would not be a choice between evil and less evil within an evil system, it would be a choice between keeping the system and changing it. "none of the above" would give everybody a clear idea of just how dissatisfied the population is with the system they are forced to live under and if the majority of the population vote for change then systems of real grassroots democracy can be built in a peaceful open way.