Haider Protest at Trinity, Dublin (photos)

by padraig reidy - socialist youth Fri Apr 11, 2003 12:03 padraigreidy at hotmail dot com

I was one the lucky few who found a secret stylish way in to Trinity last night.Excuse me for not revealing my route over the web but theforces of Imperialism are quite nosey these days... When we got in ,around forty people had gathered under the socialist youth banner and begun to chant anti haider slogans and invitng the Trinity students to join the protest.An obsolute gang of young rich white men were gathering on the steps to the philosophical hall,protected by the gardai.they began to talk about freedom of speech!And about to have Dinner with Jorg Haider!at about 20:00,the doors burst open when one of our guys on the inside was kicked out by the cops,and some in the crowd felt that it was time to rush the door.The fascist Gardai protected it though(doh!)we then were alerted he was eating at the back beside the tennis courts and found out by text that our protest was relly starting to piss him off,as we all marched behind the building and carried our banners high enough so the capitalist soiree into swinish Quasi fascism never got a minute of undisturbed "dinner"

by Dave Fri Apr 11, 2003 12:19

It's frightening to have a demonstration by socialists aimed at suppressing free speech. Why don't you go to any library and get some books about the Soviet Union. Nazi's may be ultra right wing, but ultra left wing can be just as bad.

Most people in the philosophical society (unless they're all Heidegger fans) are probably deeply opposed to Nazi views and would not be swayed by his empy arguements. Suppressing dialogue and debate only forces the issues underground where vulnerable people can be converted without hearing both sides

by Justin Moran - Sinn Fein Fri Apr 11, 2003 12:22 maigh_nuad at yahoo dot com

Not sure why so many people ended up outside. When I arrived they were refusing admittance to anyone who wasn't a student, but if a student was with you he or she could bring in a friend and that's how I got into TCD, along with a number of other people. I pointed this out to two SWP members outside as I was leaving but they didn't seem particularly bothered about getting in one way or the other.

As for the protest, nitpicking it might be, but Pardaig I didn't gather under the Socialist Youth banner, nor did most of the fourty people there. As other people noted in other threads, there were people there from Sinn Féin, the ISN, the SWP and non-aligned people. No one organisation or party organised it.

by ipsiphi Fri Apr 11, 2003 12:34

having a secret friendship with a fellow of Dublin University.
(it smooths the entrance)

by jeff Fri Apr 11, 2003 12:55

Freedom of speech is freedom of speech.Demonstrating against Nazis only leads to potential voters wanting to vote for them more; you think some bigoted shopkeeper is going to listen to a bunch of crusties and change his mind about voting BNP? Wise up, you'd all be whining if Section 31 was reintroduced against Sinn Fein...fux sake...

by Shane Kenna - Socialist Youth TCD Fri Apr 11, 2003 13:04

It was a good demo. Justin U wasn't allowed bring anyone in on my ID card. So I had to use it to smuggle people in. The security wasn't to happy but it had to be done.

Irrespective of the number at the demo it was loud and interupted what Haidar had to say. I saw bits of the inside on TV3 news and he was flooded out by what we were shouting.

Well done to AFA for organising it on such short notice. Alot of pictures were taken inside "Fortress Trinity" but as yet I haven't seen them online so I guess they'll probally be in the SU newspaper.

By the way the Texan guy who lost the election (Not Bush but your man who wanted to downgrade the union) made a fool of himself. Hes a real tosser started shouting at the SY/SYTCD comrades.

by pat c Fri Apr 11, 2003 13:08

The SY speaker, Matt, said he didnt believe that Haider was a nazi or a fascist. Therefore your description of the gardai as fascist is a bit over the top. Matt said that he wouldnt apply no platform to Haider but went on describe in detail what a nauseating person haider is.

AFA, ANL, SF, SWP, SY, SA, ISN, Labour Youth all took part in the protest.

Members of AFA, ISN and German/Austrian students took part in Direct Actions.

by AFA - Anti-Fascist Action Fri Apr 11, 2003 13:36 afa at ireland dot com c/oPO Box 3355, Dublin 7

When we were in the hallway fighting with the security and the coppers I was near trampled by a large group of press photographers who came out from the debating room. They looked like ones from real papers, but I did not have time for a chat.

All I can see this morning is a small article (no pic) in The Star and a pic of Haider and an article in the Irish Times. If people come across other coverage or pics could they please post the details to [email protected].

Thanks

by east brit Fri Apr 11, 2003 13:43

isn't indymedia daithi a scholar of tcd?????

by Red Dolores Fri Apr 11, 2003 15:40

I thought the Phil Soc people were into 'Free Speech' and say this is why they invited Nazi vermin to address them.

Strange, is it not, that when ordinary citizens attempted to express their views in the debating chamber they were immeditely manhandled and ejected by the organisers.

Paradoxical surely, perhaps one of the Philosophers might explain?

by Cathal Mc cann Fri Apr 11, 2003 15:49 cathal16 at hotmail dot com

As a student of Trinity College and a member of the Historical society and Philisophical that share the building where Jorg Haider attended a debate last night, it was a lame protest that was ridiculous in its aims. Having heard the speeches inside very clearly, the protest outside did very little to disturb the event though what it did do was point out that screaming and shouting and attacking people inside doesn't help a cause. The people ejected were asked if they wanted to make a speech at the end, rather they decided to run up and try and make a point, what last night was about was a debate and the idea of freedom of speech.As Ruari Quinn pointed out when they chanted 'what the fu ck are u at in there' the fascists were the Sinn Fein outside. There was a debate and exchange of ideas. You may not agree with some of Mr Haider's views but sweeping them under the carpet doesn't help either. His speech was not contentious at all and the debate was centered on the future of Europe. He spoke of the importance of regionalism etc. While right wing politics has produced despots like Hitler and the murder of millions, also remember socialism and marxism produced Stalin and the murder of millions. What last nights protest showed was the willingness of the two groups protesting not to ingage in debate or arguement or even put forward some tough questions in a speech rather the aim to shove their views and philosiphies down other's throats. Deputy Quinn was the brave man last night, the protester's were cowards.

by pat c Fri Apr 11, 2003 16:11

the Labour Yoputh members outside were fascists?

Maybe Labour Youth members who were present would raise this with him.

by Janus Fri Apr 11, 2003 16:15

I have to admit I've heard Ruairi called a ot of things in my time by his admirers but 'brave' is a new one on me.

You're trying to dress this up as some noble free speech debate. It was nothing of the sort. It was a bunch of bored students doing something controversial for the sake of doing controversial things, unless the quality of people in the Phil has changed dramatically since my time. I never saw a larger group of pretentious wankers in my life.

I was there to protest against Haider, not agains his having a platform. Frankly, some-one from the extreme right speaking to well-off Trinity students sounds like the Pope preaching to Jesuits.

As for Quinn, fuck him. He was a poor Labour party leader, and he's a poor TD.

As for his comments about Sinn Féin fascism, for eighty years the Labour party did everything it possibly could to pretend the Six COunties didn't exist. THEY were the party that under the Cruiser pioneered the use of Section 31. Their current hatred for Sinn Féin is not motivated by anti-fascism, but by a justifable fear about being out-flanked on the left by real socialists in the Socialist Party and Sinn Féin. Quinn's comments on fascism, and the man's political analysis should be treated as if it were beneath contempt, which he certainly is.

I'll take a lot of things from people, mild mannered fellow that I am, but a lecture from a member of the Labour party on free speech is laughable.

by Reginald Perrin Fri Apr 11, 2003 16:28

What crime were protesters accusing Haider of ?
Do we no longer have incitement to hatred laws in Ireland ?
Was it a preemptive indictment ?
Was anyone being forced to debate with Haider or attend his speech ?
Are we not mature or intelligent enough to process information and come to our own conclusions about its validity or acceptibility ?
Why was I accused by protestors of being a Nazi and threatened with having my "head kicked in" simply because I stood at a distance from the often infantile proceedings ?
Why is the phrase "We'll get you like we got Fortyn" deemed a credible form of protest ?

I could go on. Which probably makes me liberal bourgeois ? or reactionary ? Jaysus. Physician heal etc

by trot Fri Apr 11, 2003 18:45

moderate people should stop posting here and go to www.stormfront.org . leave this place to the marxist nuts.

www.ihr.org read that and you will see why the far left is afraid of free speech

by -socialist youth Fri Apr 11, 2003 19:16

is there really only one swper in ssaw?were they not told that ssaw is part of swp?i personally think the whole idea is a load of shit. maybe there are a couple of them that know what theyre talking about but the others are probably just doing it to be "cool"

by Kiddo Fri Apr 11, 2003 20:44

"Strange, is it not, that when ordinary citizens attempted to express their views in the debating chamber they were immeditely manhandled and ejected by the organisers.

Paradoxical surely, perhaps one of the Philosophers might explain?"

It is normal, in the course of a debate, to observe certain rules of decorum. Standing up and shouting while others are attempting to speak is not debating, expressing your views, or constructively engaging with an opposing viewpoint. It is making noise.

The noise, though certainly loud, affected only one of the speakers unduly - a Ms. Helena Szamuely. While her views were a bit right of centre, it was unfortunate and not a little ironic that she - who lost family members in the holocaust - was drowned out by chants of "Auschwitz, Treblinka, Never Again". To abuse someone else's metaphor, that's a bit like the Pope shouting slogans at Jesuits to drown them out.

It was doubly ironic, then, that the noise level receeded completely about five minutes into Haider's speech, which - it should be said - was dire. A watered-down, bland, and poorly-argued collection of inanities, it convinced nobody in the crowd other than the five known right-wingers who were present, and who will have heard nothing new there.

As for the rest of the crowd, it was generally agreed that Ruari Quinn was superb. He DEMOLISHED not only Haider, but those assembled outside, and spoke at length about the need for socialism to adapt itself to a changed world, and so to shape the world as it continues to change. You know the deal...

So Haider's views, made public and subjected to critical scrutiny, were soundly beaten. If you hide them behind barricades - erected against the wishes of the organisers and on instructions of the Gardai, it should be pointed out, and probably done so in order to prevent idiots attemting to "charge" an already full-to-capacity lecture theatre - you allow them to retain a sort of equivalency, a veneer of credibility. If you treat them like anyone else's views, and expose them to rigourous discussion their sheer poverty becomes all too apparent.

Ideas are our friends, and while freedom of speech is not an absolute right - there are quite subtle and nuanced reasons why it may not apply to holocaust deniers, for instance - no useful purpose was served by attemting to curb their flow last night. A democratic system is premised not on the notion that a majority of the public are right at any one time, but on the notion that we can ALL be expected to be regularly wrong about a whole lot of things. By allowing others to be wrong in public, we allow the public to see how and why they are wrong.

Oh - and isn't that "Austria's gifts to the EU" placard itself subtly racist? Just a thought.

by jpc - swp Sat Apr 12, 2003 00:27

"there really only one swper in ssaw?were they not told that ssaw is part of swp?i personally think the whole idea is a load of shit. maybe there are a couple of them that know what theyre talking about but the others are probably just doing it to be "cool"

nope there is a few,and no they are not doing it to be cool, unlike plenty members of yaw.

by Shane Kenna - Socialist Youth/Party Sat Apr 12, 2003 10:29 Tallaght

"nope
by jpc - swp Fri, Apr 11 2003, 11:27pm

nope there is a few,and no they are not doing it to be cool, unlike plenty members of yaw."

Generally I don't like this secterian bullshit (I stick to what Marx wrote in the Communist manifesto in relation to that kind of behaviour). I stay away from it and I disagree with any comrade of mine who takes part in it. But at times the line is drawn. This is one such occasion - Members of YAW are not involved in this movement to be "cool." If you had have come to any YAW meeting jpc then you would understand how YAW works the political ability that we have.

Everyone in YAW is equipped with alternatives to war and is politically developed. I refuse to get into petty tit for tat politics on this forum. Therefore in an act of goodwill I will also claim that some SSAW are also developed but the organisation has not had the same success as YAW has, as YAW is built by school students in their schools with no one else and with the help of college students and young workers at the minimum but generally this is only at stalls.

Every protest that has been organised by the YAW movement has been subject to proper discussion at the proper branch. Every walkout organised is testament to the political abilitly of YAW school student members.

Finally people dont get involved in politics because it's "cool" they get involved because they want to change something.

by Shane Kenna Sat Apr 12, 2003 10:31

It should be http://www.socialistyouth.cjb.net

by jpc - SWP Sat Apr 12, 2003 21:38

im only responding to a claim posted by "socialist youth" who claimed those in ssaw are only doing it to be cool,blame your own not me...

by Shane Kenna Sun Apr 13, 2003 13:02

Unforunately I can't blame that "Socialistyouth" person as I don't know who they are and further to that I believe that it may not even be a member of SY.

Anyway I understand why you raised your posting I guess it's the same reason I raised mine!

by Jp - SWP Sun Apr 13, 2003 20:19

oh yes, its "ssaw watcher" trying to stir some shit up.

by rita Sun Apr 13, 2003 21:18

"Individuals have international duties which transcend the national obligations of obedience. Therefore [individuals] have the duty to violate domestic laws to prevent crimes against peace and humanity from occurring."

(Nuremberg Tribunal)

by rita Sun Apr 13, 2003 21:18

"Individuals have international duties which transcend the national obligations of obedience. Therefore [individuals] have the duty to violate domestic laws to prevent crimes against peace and humanity from occurring."

(Nuremberg Tribunal)

by Shane - Socialist Youth TCD Mon Apr 14, 2003 09:36

No platform is the only policy for dealing with the far right. They cant be allowed to spread their racial hate and intolerance. We saw what they do when theey have free speech - duribg the thirties and indeed today with the British National Party.

The worst thing about Wednesday was that the "Debate" organised by the "Phil" was a publicity stunt. The organisers of the debate had no care how offensive this man was to many people.

Most of those in attendence in the GMB where the debate was going on were a shower of snobs and and lick arses who wouldn't have a clue how to survive outside in the real world

by pat c Mon Apr 14, 2003 10:25

Shane,

I was in TCD on Thursday night and heard the SY speaker, Matt, quite clearly state that he did not believe Haider was a Nazi or a Fascist.

by Cat P Mon Apr 14, 2003 18:38

i see that u can go 2 trinners for an protest but u dont attend ur unions meetings or get active in de union left.

pat c- ur a crank.

by pat c Tue Apr 15, 2003 10:41

i'm active , you are the crank. it just shows how pitiful the sp are, having to send out someone like you.

they are using double talk about fascists. but if some of them think haider is a fascist then why didnt they apply a no platform attitude?

by Shane Kenna Tue Apr 15, 2003 15:21

Firstly Pat where did I say Haidar a fascist? Once again you are putting words into my mouth to suit your own agenda.

I was expressing my personal belief that if anyone is going out to promote racial hatered be it out of race, religion or social disvantage I would oppose it and would picket.

I hold a disgust for the awful politics of race hate both from and ideological or oppertunistic vintage.

Pat I really dont know what you have against the SP but its getting tiresome must you really have a go at everything SP.

by pat c Sat Apr 19, 2003 20:34

No where in my comments (other than in response to the juvenile attack) am i in any way attacking the SP.

i'm merely asking questions.

you said you supported a no platform policy against the far rigt. does that mean you now have extended the policy beyond fascists?