Help needed for justifying demonstrating this Saturday

by pc Thu Apr 10, 2003 21:59

sure you'd be happy if you got rid an oppressor that doesn't mean the next guy is any better

the news said today that the iraqis have been under a totalitarian state for so long there programmed to be estatic about any person in power to keep their necks

the fact those people are liberated doens't make the war right or vindicated, if they find chemical weapons it still doens't make the war vindicated esp as they didn't go with the un

by hunter Thu Apr 10, 2003 22:13

a) the war is not even 'over', and i doubt it will be by saturday

b) this remains a war for oil and imperialist/capitalist domination of the middle east

c) looking like syria is next on the US shit list

d) at least 1200 civilians have died so far in the conflict, i'm assuming 1000s upon 1000s are injured. such as the kid with his two arms blown off pictured in yesterdays guardian. not to mention the 1000s of conscript soldiers that have been killed. in three weeks the US have managed to kill many many more than were killed in the entire history of the 'troubles' in ireland.

e) there are US sanctioned theives militias now roaming various cities, stealiing from ordinary iraqis at gunpoint, and threatening journalists. there has been a complete breakdown in law & order - of course we need to bring back the ba'ath police force to sort this out, but this time under US command.

f) where are the weapons of mass destruction? where are the links to al qaeda?

g) what will post 'liberation' iraq look like? will it be a thriving democracy with equal rights, access to health care for all and a free and equal distribution of the country's oil wealth? - will ian paisley ever convert to catholicism..? same answer

h) the use of cluster bombs and depleted uranium will ensure many more direct and 'indirect' casualties of this war in the future.

i) is the middle east (or the world for that matter) more stable after this invasion? or will we see a rise in terrorism and anti-western beliefs?

j) many of the ba'ath regimes middle members will be re-employed to the various ministries to oversee the rule of the country. and i thought this was about regime change. as (i think) Rumsfeld said in 91 "what we want is the saddam regime, without saddam".

k) will the kurds or the shias have the right to self-determination?

l) the us forgot about aid to afghanistan. now while there will undoubtedly be many billions poured into rebuilding iraq (roads, ministries, embassies, oil fields, army bases, police stations and airports) - how much of this will be in the form of 'humanitarian aid'? no doubt the US will leave this for the ngos and UN to pick the tab for. out of the recent $75 billion war budget, only $3 billion is for 'rebuilding iraq'.

m) while (some) iraqis may indeed welcome the US, the vast amjority are suspicious. they are undoubtedly glad to see sadam gone, but are they glad to have a new oppressor, this time an external one?

n) did i mention that this remains a war for oil, and no amount of cheering iraqis can take away from this fact. all the death and destruction just so dick n bush could get their friends' grubby little paws on the iraqis' oil. i suppose enron and co have been forgotten by the US media.

by Caspian Thu Apr 10, 2003 22:14

These people filmed pulling down the statue outside the journalist's hotel in Baghdad are in fact the henchmen of Ahmed Chalabi, the gangster flown in with his American trained thugs to run Iraq once America has killed all the children. The statue pulling was staged by the CIA. Very clever and good propaganda. Have a look at the headlines in What Really Happened.com right now and tell your friends to.

by Josef Thu Apr 10, 2003 22:20

These are the people saying that Bush and his colleagues planned and carried out 9/11.

by lisa Thu Apr 10, 2003 22:20

The US government has never been interested in any human rights issues in Iraq. History and the present shows that clearly.

by Barney Thu Apr 10, 2003 22:25

You're just drawing more ridicule on the ant-war movement. People didn't think this one thru beacuse they're blinded by hatred of US tactics during the Cold War (which is over, by the way).

If you march on Saturday you'll be saying you want Saddam's thug's reinstated.

That's what you'll be saying to the world by protesting against this war.

That's what you'll be saying.

Save your energy for later, when we westerners have to ensure that Iraq doesn't fall back into opression, by keeping Iraq under the nose of Dubya and Blair.

by KIJFAN Thu Apr 10, 2003 22:40

First i have to say: next victim is socialist Korea (or Syria) and we must defend socialism in Korea. You have to say to the yanks "go home capitalist aholes! we are here to defend socialist Korea and we hate you! So dont attack DPRK". But what you need to do is to help them understand that you dont support Bush and one (best?) way to do it is to take a big picture of Kim Il Sung (R.I.P.) with you. He is not just a human, but also a symbol of anti-imperialism and USA=imperialism. He and his son Kim Jon Il are the only leaders in the world that had the courage to defend peace and socialism against the american imperialists who think they can rule the world, but they cant. And the Truth will prevail. Kim Il sung gave us the truth in juche ideology. It is a strong anti-imperialist ideology and you all should leran it.

by Caspian Thu Apr 10, 2003 22:56

Little fatty Kim likes a drink or two, doesn't he? The sooner the Korean people get rid of that thick little alcoholic the better. But let the Korean people do it without the help of Bush and Blair.
Get real, Kifjan.
Does Kim still wear those four inch Cuban heels? When are you seriously brainwashed Koreans going to start pulling down all those statues of the great leader and selling them off for scrap to feed your people?

by Barney Thu Apr 10, 2003 23:02

i'm Bush's poodle, honest!

by KIJFAN Thu Apr 10, 2003 23:06

"Little fatty Kim likes a drink or two, doesn't he?"

And nobody in Ireland drinks??? Who are you to judge the leader of DPRK? Are you the only one who has right to drink?

by Caspian Thu Apr 10, 2003 23:09

Actually, yes.
Did one touch a raw nerve Kifyjim, old boy?

by ineloquent Thu Apr 10, 2003 23:18

For your eloquence

by KIJFAN Thu Apr 10, 2003 23:23

HYPOCRISY

You drink but you say Kim Jong Il should stay sober all the time. Who are you to judge leader of DPRK? People of Korea think he is the best leader and they love him. It is hard work he is doing defending his country. I think Kim Jong has earned the right to drink whenever HE wants.

by sean - not a trot Thu Apr 10, 2003 23:35

The celebration, burning and looting going on in Baghdad is fairly predictable and I thought we were going to see those sort of images far earlier in the war. Nonetheless, I felt strange watching the footage last night. I enjoyed the the carnival of looting and the destruction of the symbols of the Ba'ath regime but I also experienced a sense of vertigo-what if the anti war movement had been totally mistaken?. What if the US, even inadvertently, was an agent of positive change in the region?. What can I say -TV corrodes the mind.

But we can't collapse history into one single jubilant moment though. It is useful to go over recent and not so recent history to explain the opposition to the war to your mates. First off, and this is going to sound pat but the anti war movement was never pro Saddam. My guess is that the the primary motivation of the majority of people who took to the streets over the past few months was concern about the behaviour of an incredibly powerful rogue state.

The case for war was weak and Bush et al didn't even pretend to take account of any of the concerns raised by opponents of the war. The run up to the war and subsequent events has mapped out the contours of US foreign policy for the foreseeable future and it amounts to "we will do whatever suits the US state and a powerful cabal of corporate interests whatever the consequences of those actions might be". The long term effects of such a policy can only be imagined and undoubtedly will be ruinous.

Whatever happens in the next few months in Iraq the problem will still be the same-the world is been run in a stupid, fundamentally undemocratic and destructive manner. See you in Shannon.

by bjg Thu Apr 10, 2003 23:35

... who, in 1779, as his ship was sinking, was asked whether he would surrender. His reply: "I have not yet begun to fight."

It can take a long time --- hundreds of years --- to beat back the barbarians or to civilise them. The barbarians to the west of us are in the ascendant now, but their empire will not last. And we can hasten its demise, but it will take work to do so.

Churchill: "Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." It is now clear (as though it were not before) that

- the US is the enemy

- it is powerful, ruthless and shameless

- it is extremely strong and probably cannot be defeated militarily

- its armed forces act as the goon squad of US companies, enabling them to steal at will

- the vast majority of the people of the USA do not realise (or care) that their own rights are in danger and do not care about the deaths of others, as long as their own comforts are not affected. While there are some decent and brave people in the USA, they are weak: there will be no revolution from within

- our own government, like others in Europe, is a quisling government, caring nothing for liberty, independence or peace. The Imperial Power must not be offended, and Pontius Pilate will wash his hands of everything else

- our fellow-citizens dislike the smash-and-grab raid, but not enough to do anything serious about it, like going on strike, while Pontius Pilate and his East Yanks will ignore them anyway

- the mental battleground is a difficult one too, as our opponents seize the media, create theatrical events and impose their views, their concepts and their language on the world

- and they have much better organisation, most of the money, most of the media and most of the weapons.

Accordingly, overthrowing the buggers will be fun. The first essential is clarity of goal, something that the enemy have ("Let's grab all the loot and kill anyone who stands in our way") but we do not. The second essential is determination. And the third is imagination.

And we have one great advantage: the American people are incredibly stupid. You can make them believe pretty well anything. We must fight on the mental battleground. And remember

"When things go wrong and will not come right
Though you do the best you can
And life looks black as the hour of night
A pint of plain is your only man."

We have the poets: Jem Casey, the poet of the pick, the Bard of Booterstown.

bjg

by Precision Man Thu Apr 10, 2003 23:39

"we must defend socialism in Korea"????

Bush is unlikely to attack, for the simple reason that Korea, unlike Iraq, DOES have weapons of mass destruction, and, like all bullies, Bush is a coward, a "chickenhawk".

Anyway, it is debateable as to how much socialism there is in Korea.

by sean - not a trot Thu Apr 10, 2003 23:43

while i was writing my comment you smuggled in your little gem of a contribution. I have found the war very stressful but it is wholly ludicrous suggestions like yours that make this so much easier. Talking of which anyone know any catchy Sparticist slogans I can mutter to make myself laugh.

by depp Fri Apr 11, 2003 09:18

Was the war worth it?
Was the Dunblane massacre worth it? Yeah, 16 kids and their teacher were shot to death, but maybe better gun control laws resulted from it.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

by pat c Fri Apr 11, 2003 10:13

after a hard evening of trying to get at haider, these pro kim pieces are just what i need to chheer me up ;)

by hunter Fri Apr 11, 2003 18:47

5, 6, 7, 8
defend the north korean workers' state

- Spart slogan

and of course headline from Workers' Vanguard

"There's nothing wrong with a little bump n' grind - Defend R Kelly"

(yes its true)